The Project Gutenberg eBook of Warren Commission (8 of 26): Hearings Vol. VIII, by Warren Commission.

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

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PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VIII: Edward Voebel, William E. Wulf, Bennierita Smith, Frederick S. O'Sullivan, Mildred Sawyer, Anne Boudreaux, Viola Peterman, Myrtle Evans, Julian Evans, Philip Eugene Vinson, and Hiram Conway, who were associated with Lee Harvey Oswald in his youth; Lillian Murret, Marilyn Dorothea Murret, Charles Murret, John M. Murret, and Edward John Pic, Jr., who were related to Oswald; John Carro, Dr. Renatus Hartogs, and Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, who came into contact with Oswald while he was in New York during his youth; Nelson Delgado, Daniel Patrick Powers, John E. Donovan, Lt. Col. A. G. Folsom, Jr., Capt. George Donabedian, James Anthony Botelho, Donald Peter Camarata, Peter Francis Connor, Allen D. Graf, John Rene Heindel, David Christie Murray, Jr., Paul Edward Murphy, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., Mack Osborne, Richard Dennis Call, and Erwin Donald Lewis, who testified regarding Oswald's service in the Marine Corps; Martin Isaacs and Pauline Virginia Bates, who saw Oswald when he returned from Russia; and Max E. Clark, George A. Bouhe, Anna N. Meller, Elena A. Hall, John Raymond Hall, Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina); and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin, who became acquainted with Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962.

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD VOEBEL

The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your mother and father, are you not?

Mr. Jenner. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Warren Commission, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B. Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. You received that also?

Mr. Jenner. I take it you gather from those documents that the Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking depositions here2 in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some contact with him; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that came about.

Mr. Voebel. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about 1954 or 1955.

Mr. Jenner. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him, because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit.

Mr. Voebel. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee had a fight with a couple of boys.

Mr. Voebel. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which I was going.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. The fight traveled my route home.

Mr. Voebel. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.

Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.

Some big guy, probably from a high school—he looked like a tremendous football player—punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was, and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help him.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the post on him.

Mr. Voebel. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on Lee at that time.

Mr. Jenner. You think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys, so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and I—I don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point on, would you say?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and share interests, and what were his interests?

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown—I told the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and sometimes I would stop off4 at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.

Mr. Voebel. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I don't think he was a great pool player.

Mr. Jenner. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as I recall that.

Mr. Voebel. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.

There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the others.

Mr. Jenner. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. That's my problem.

Mr. Jenner. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14 or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. People change, of course.

Mr. Voebel. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee. I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him, but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think in a way I understood him better than5 most of the other kids. He had the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost contact with Lee years ago.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least, that was my impression of them.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at Beauregard School while you were attending there?

Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to fight at that school.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of characters that were going to that school at that time.

Mr. Jenner. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just the opposite of that; isn't that true?

Mr. Voebel. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.

Mr. Voebel. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been, now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of his way to avoid it.

Mr. Jenner. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to speak?

Mr. Voebel. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now, but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang wars and things like that.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics, pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there for about a year, and then he disappeared.

6 Mr. Jenner. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High School to then enroll in Warren Easton?

Mr. Voebel. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during that summer.

Mr. Voebel. I don't remember. Let's see—no; I think we were in the same grade, I think we were.

Mr. Voebel. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym periods were different.

I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the community before they accepted him.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.

Mr. Voebel. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.

Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh, maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue, I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and adolescent things.

Mr. Jenner. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force, whatever it was; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they would hang around in bunches.

7 In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked, so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.

Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?

Mr. Voebel. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. He was just living in his own world, let's say.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have some measure of common interest that you told me about?

Mr. Voebel. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you have in mind?

Mr. Voebel. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few foreign military weapons.

Mr. Jenner. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old, you see.

Mr. Voebel. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting them or anything.

I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to want something just to have it, I think.

8 Mr. Voebel. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music, and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things, and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't seem to run that way.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or couldn't drive an automobile?

Mr. Voebel. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They were no bigger than that.

Mr. Voebel. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went fishing that day.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his finances.

Mr. Voebel. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like that, because I don't have the time.

Mr. Voebel. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?

Mr. Voebel. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons and my schoolwork, and with my folks9 in business, I had to help them out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something there that you want to tell me about?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high school.

Mr. Jenner. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from Beauregard; right?

Mr. Jenner. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for about a year?

Mr. Voebel. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been over there, but I don't remember that at all.

Mr. Voebel. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street.

Mr. Voebel. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his plan was to steal it.

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention to it.

Mr. Voebel. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol.

Mr. Voebel. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the window and everything, and10 I didn't know what to tell him, so he said, "Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was.

He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him. I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window, such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway, he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was the end of that.

Mr. Jenner. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass window with a glass cutter?

Mr. Voebel. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know.

Mr. Voebel. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you know, but I am just speculating on that, of course.

Mr. Voebel. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney.

Mr. Voebel. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even know that. I know we never discussed anything like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the service, I believe; is that right?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing.

Mr. Jenner. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were they?

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee and his mother?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as Lee was concerned, but of11 course she was always around, and I think she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time.

I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about anything.

Mr. Jenner. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean, did he cut her off short in any way?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a mamma's boy.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often indulgent toward him?

Mr. Voebel. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course, if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but that's just the way he was.

Mr. Jenner. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal in life. What was his attitude about that, if any?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard together.

Mr. Voebel. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for sure, but I don't think he did.

Mr. Voebel. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think everybody had to play some intramural sports.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling that there were things that should have been accorded him by way of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been deprived because his father had predeceased him?

Mr. Voebel. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly good time, as all boys our12 age seemed to do. We would play darts and play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you that impression?

Mr. Voebel. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we were in Beauregard together.

Mr. Jenner. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.

Mr. Voebel. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course, at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out looking for something like that unless you have a reason.

Mr. Jenner. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around and associating with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Voebel. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal things that kids read.

Mr. Voebel. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I guess you would say.

Mr. Voebel. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me, even music when I first started with it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?

Mr. Voebel. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to mix with people; that's all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that has remained in your mind all these years?

Mr. Voebel. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I knew how he didn't like to mix with people.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of a gang at school, or anything like that?

Mr. Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.

Mr. Jenner. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do you know?

Mr. Voebel. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his attendance was pretty good.

Mr. Voebel. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his brothers—I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I have no impression of that whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received his just dues in the world up to that point?

Mr. Voebel. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression. That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.

Mr. Voebel. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were going to Beauregard, to the same school.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?

Mr. Voebel. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do, or made to do something.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember, in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.

Mr. Voebel. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.

Mr. Jenner. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join the unit?

Mr. Voebel. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't attend any more meetings.

Mr. Voebel. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my opinion now, I guess—not then, but I think now maybe he liked the uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those classes that we had.

Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just didn't show up any more.

Mr. Jenner. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require some study?

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of his earlier life?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; his background—anything about his family before he ever met you?

Mr. Voebel. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.

Mr. Jenner. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to anyone in your presence, that you recall?

Mr. Voebel. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would impress me so that I would remember it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a week, or how often?

Mr. Voebel. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the whole thing.

Mr. Voebel. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the15 weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, isn't that right?

Mr. Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.

Mr. Voebel. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest me.

Mr. Voebel. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.

Mr. Jenner. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in that respect?

Mr. Jenner. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?

Mr. Voebel. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. I think that was probably it.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that you can think of from your acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what I have asked you?

Mr. Jenner. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in that regard?

Mr. Voebel. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told you what I know about it.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM E. WULF

The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

16 Mr. Liebeler. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New Orleans during the period 1954–55. Before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. Liebeler. You obtained your primary education and secondary education here in New Orleans?

Mr. Wulf. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959.

Mr. Liebeler. The Commission has received information to the effect that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association——

Mr. Liebeler. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or what was it at that time?

Mr. Wulf. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc.

Mr. Wulf. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in college.

Mr. Liebeler. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at this time.

Mr. Wulf. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was—I had originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and all, probably it was September or August in 1955.

Mr. Wulf. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he had17 talked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group and I told him—he asked me could he come over to the house one time, and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit.

Mr. Liebeler. This fellow that called you and then came over to your house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to associate Oswald with this particular person.

Mr. Liebeler. This association was made by you at some time subsequent to the assassination. Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. Liebeler. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and then you associated Oswald——

Mr. Wulf. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture, and then I subsequently found out—I confirmed it when I asked the FBI agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same person.

Mr. Liebeler. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you saw in the paper?

Mr. Liebeler. And then as a result of that association, you asked the FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's?

Mr. Wulf. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the association, other than—I must stipulate at this time that when I had met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to.

Mr. Liebeler. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI interviewed you?

Mr. Wulf. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even surprised that I got your letter from the Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way as to how they had been led to you?

Mr. Wulf. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride, so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they got this particular knowledge.

Mr. Wulf. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954—that is a rough date—probably towards the end, probably—let's see—I am trying to associate it with the Astronomy Club dates—towards the end of the school year 1954–55, so that would probably be in—oh, March and April, around that.

Mr. Wulf. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records, but——

Mr. Liebeler. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to join the Astronomy Association——

18 Mr. Liebeler. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride and become a friend of his after that?

Mr. Wulf. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the city I still see him.

Mr. Liebeler. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that right?

Mr. Wulf. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I don't know the exact title of his position.

Mr. Wulf. Only at the time that—two occasions or possibly three—I think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of Oswald's beliefs, and I told—McBride had always told me that he wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket engineering and rocketry—like we all were nuts on rocketry at the time—and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature."

Mr. Wulf. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting with Oswald when we got into a discussion—I being a history major and always been interested in history, some way or another we got around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and boisterous?

Mr. Wulf. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or strongheaded about other things?

Mr. Wulf. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in other words.

Mr. Wulf. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him violently, and he asked him to leave the house.

Mr. Liebeler. And he had been involved in some political activities with or opposed to the Communists?

Mr. Wulf. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany following the war, 1919–20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and he just—well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't like Communists.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything about the details of your first meeting with Lee Oswald?

Mr. Wulf. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that he asked—we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. Wulf. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house. It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.

Mr. Liebeler. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Now can you remember anything else about the second meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?

Mr. Wulf. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little about communism, and he was just—actually militant on the idea, and I can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist, he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and——

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to find a Communist organization?

Mr. Wulf. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because he couldn't——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as this with McBride?

Mr. Wulf. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except for, you know, working hours.

Mr. Liebeler. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed communism with him?

Mr. Wulf. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and I think they tended to associate because20 of that reason, because they were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.

Mr. Liebeler. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and McBride? Is that correct?

Mr. Wulf. On this particular point, yes; that they were both—well, for one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride—he wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after this second visit that—we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I was quite conscious of security matters and all.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?

Mr. Wulf. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any belief in communism.

Mr. Liebeler. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B."

Mr. Liebeler. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in those pictures?

Mr. Wulf. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo 453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on "Pizzo 453-A."

Mr. Wulf. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can associate.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken out of——

Mr. Wulf. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints—I can tell by the grain—and they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do not associate the other man marked——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?

Mr. Wulf. No; I base that picture on—when I first saw those films originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it was many years ago, it was—oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but he seems to me to be the same person.

Mr. Liebeler. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the logical steps that——

Mr. Liebeler. And that logical association is the association that we have already described throughout this record?

Mr. Wulf. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him. McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.

21 Mr. Wulf. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother—this is hearsay, of course, through McBride—that his mother didn't associate with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as such.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the assassination?

Mr. Wulf. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once, and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no answer, and we were wondering where he is.

Mr. Liebeler. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would appreciate it if you would add it.

Mr. Wulf. Not that I know of. The only thing I can—I don't know how many people have told you of this period of his life—I amplify that at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing that did hit me, he seemed—I told this to McBride at the time—he seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time, and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BENNIERITA SMITH

The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I would be in touch with you concerning your testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission concerning the taking of22 testimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter and those documents?

Mr. Liebeler. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name for the record, if you will.

Mrs. Smith. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue in Lakeview. Then I went—it was either the third or fourth grade I transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and that is all the schooling I have had.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you attended Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't.

Mrs. Smith. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy—he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.

Mrs. Smith. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember—what is that boy's name?—the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?

Mrs. Smith. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of patched his lip up, but he was—he more or less kept to himself, he didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the only one I remember. And they had this little boy—I think it was Bobby Newman—he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short.

Mrs. Smith. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far as—I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel.

Mrs. Smith. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well, I knew his sisters.

Mrs. Smith. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris—and they call the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one you described in which Oswald had his lip cut?

Mrs. Smith. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight or that the other guy started the fight?

Mrs. Smith. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school but he didn't go there, you know, he just——

Mr. Liebeler. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same age as the rest of the students?

Mrs. Smith. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, and I am almost sure he was older than her.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which Oswald was involved?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you see the television program that was played over WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared?

Mrs. Smith. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't anything I knew about him.

Mrs. Smith. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them. And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident.

Mr. Liebeler. Three of you would be yourself—and what were the names of the other two girls?

24 Mr. Liebeler. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right?

Mrs. Smith. No; Larry—I met Larry—gee, I don't even remember—I guess maybe at a school dance or something—and I went out with him, and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get some—well, more or less a story together.

Mrs. Smith. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we just answered him, but I didn't know him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You mentioned this fight to him?

Mrs. Smith. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as—like we would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details about Lee Oswald than you did?

Mrs. Smith. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, that he always wore these sweater vests—they are more or less in style now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school—it was just like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl friend told him about that, and—I am trying to remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was that something that one of your girl friends remembered?

Mrs. Smith. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him dressing that way.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything else that the three of you were able to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by the television people or after that?

Mr. Liebeler. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald being involved in?

Mrs. Smith. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer.

Mrs. Smith. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother who told her.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the time he went to Beauregard?

Mr. Liebeler. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed?

Mrs. Smith. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants or khakis.

Mr. Liebeler. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of the way he dressed or the way he——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed around by the other boys for any reason?

Mr. Liebeler. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is there, or——

Mrs. Smith. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just show his back and—but there isn't anything other than that fight. I think that is what made me remember him the most.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way in which he walked?

Mrs. Smith. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight with them or——

Mrs. Smith. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see, they were fighting, but I really——

Mrs. Smith. No, sir; I haven't seen him—gee, I guess since I graduated from Beauregard.

Mrs. Smith. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street from St. Anthony's Church.

Mr. Liebeler. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it out farther?

Mrs. Smith. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here [indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town.

Mrs. Smith. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride practically to the end of the line.

Mrs. Smith. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end of the streetcar line.

Mrs. Smith. Yes, sir; I guess—let's see—it must be about the 4000 or 6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell me the area the people that went to Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans, or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school?

Mrs. Smith. Each high school has its own district, so that the people that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly, you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school board.

26 Mr. Liebeler. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or middle-class neighborhood?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the time that he went to Beauregard, do you?

Mr. Liebeler. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than Beauregard?

Mr. Liebeler. And that district included the district encompassed by Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. Liebeler. It includes other districts aside from the Beauregard Junior High School District, does it not?

Mrs. Smith. Well, all the kids that went to Beauregard automatically went to Easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but it drew kids that lived around Easton too. I mean the district widened, it got larger like from Beauregard to Easton, you know.

Mrs. Smith. I can remember seeing him there. My girl friends didn't, but I remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking outside of school.

Mrs. Smith. But as far as recalling anything about him at Warren Easton other than that, I don't.

Mr. Liebeler. There wasn't any event that he was involved in that stands out in your mind?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember when you saw Lee Oswald at Warren Easton? Was it immediately after you started Warren Easton after graduating from Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. Liebeler. You actually attended Warren Easton for three years? Is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember seeing Lee Oswald over a long period of time at Warren Easton, or was it just for a part?

Mrs. Smith. No; just—I may have just seen him once or twice at the beginning of the school year.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Warren Easton students come from pretty much the same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social background as the people who went to Beauregard Junior High School?

Mrs. Smith. I think so, but there were a few kids—well, boys—that were——

Mr. Liebeler. There were people from a different class or different group of society?

27 Mrs. Smith. There were rumors that some of them took dope. Of course, I don't know how true it is, but that is what they say.

Mr. Liebeler. You never had any knowledge of anything like that or heard any rumors about that at Beauregard, did you?

Mr. Liebeler. If you can think of anything else about Lee Oswald that I haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would set it forth on the record now. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered?

Mr. Liebeler. I have no other questions at this point. I do want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have, and, on behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF FREDERICK S. O'SULLIVAN

The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive the letter?

Mr. Liebeler. One of the things the Commission is interested in is the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. Liebeler. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as I understand. Is that correct?

28 Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a police department scholarship.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him, what contacts you had with him, just the whole story.

Mr. O'Sullivan. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel—I am not sure how that name is spelled—and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was I noticed—we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team.

Mr. O'Sullivan. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could—well, he even gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to the squadron he had joined.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald—I didn't know this until I read it in the paper—lived only a half a block from me for a short time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street.

Mr. Liebeler. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from French Street around 1957.

29 Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of—I was an athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do with sports activities?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close acquaintances at that time, or do you know?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and went out to Moisant and evidently—or I believe he talked Oswald into coming out there with him.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just—you see, a lot of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles?

Mr. O'Sullivan. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to summer camp we would fire on the range.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of any kind in connection with CAP activities?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any rifle practice in connection with the CAP?

Mr. Liebeler. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with the Moisant30 squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when he went to Moisant Airport.

Mr. Liebeler. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol?

Mr. Liebeler. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any information that would lead you to believe that there was a relationship between these two men?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me up at home, and——

Mr. O'Sullivan. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all were, at New Orleans.

Mr. O'Sullivan. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course, I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much. Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you find anything in these files that related to Ferrie or Oswald?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald. I don't know if he was involved, he could have been.

Mr. Liebeler. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that there has been publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'Sullivan. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under investigation of whatever it was, I don't know.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an airplane.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice activities here in New Orleans?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we handle.

Mr. Liebeler. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct?

Mr. O'Sullivan. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.]

Mr. Liebeler. Now see if you can recall or think back to your experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else. I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure, but there is nothing else I can think of.

Mr. Liebeler. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER

The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?

Mrs. Sawyer. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr. Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little curious and looked, and I found that there was one.

Mr. Liebeler. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days' notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3 days' notice,32 but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.

Mrs. Sawyer. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid there is very little I know.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in fact he did assassinate the President.

Mrs. Sawyer. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so, whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.

Mrs. Sawyer. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street, and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel—you remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some little place to store all our books and everything—my husband was an engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was quite old—he is 91, in fact—so that is how we started looking around, and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back and forth ever since.

Mrs. Sawyer. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3 years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son, were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.

Mr. Liebeler. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI sometime back in November?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and that is when I realized that they were the same people.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?

Mrs. Sawyer. Not really, because—well, she was old enough to be my mother, I might say, and our working all the time—and so was my husband—and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say "little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and he seemed quite polite.

Mrs. Sawyer. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he actually is or was.

Mrs. Sawyer. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called Exchange Alley.

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's—I don't remember which—because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in. In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her for anything.

Mr. Liebeler. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs. Oswald and this boy? Is that right?

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and I am sure—seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home before his mother and he was very quiet.

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very low voiced and——

Mr. Liebeler. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any scolding?

Mrs. Sawyer. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with other people, and I think neighbors especially.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come and go?

Mrs. Sawyer. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock or so.

Mrs. Sawyer. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were going or anything?

Mrs. Sawyer. No; I didn't—I don't recall her saying anything about where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I came back, well, they were gone.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him to distinguish him from other boys his age?

Mrs. Sawyer. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of, and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.

Mrs. Sawyer. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered——

Mrs. Sawyer. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have been pretty tired—well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and——

Mrs. Sawyer. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice would be involved in anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever hear him talking about politics to anybody?

Mrs. Sawyer. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than just saying good morning—and he did say that—or good evening or something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14 years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would have been quite——

Mr. Liebeler. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming over.

Mr. Liebeler. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the cooperation that you have given us.

Mrs. Sawyer. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is so vague and such a little bit.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX

The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general counsel of the Commission, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties?

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one?

Mr. Jenner. All right. I therefore take it you understand from those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in its investigation.

Mr. Jenner. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because these are always a little inconvenient, of course.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline Street, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises?

Mr. Jenner. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some experiences with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now.

Mrs. Boudreaux. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their babysitter.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block from the Port of Embarkation.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and I moved in.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was through her that I knew the house was going to be empty.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June or the latter part of May 1942.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with respect to Lee's conduct?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that conversation with you.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a gun or not, or what a gun was, would he?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time with him.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's what she said.

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had other boys.

Mr. Jenner. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mr. Jenner. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too quickly, I mean.

Mr. Jenner. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was her reputation for truth and veracity, for example?

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to me, I mean, the neighbors.

Mrs. Boudreaux. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I have never heard anything spoken about her.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead—Mrs. Roach. She's deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there when I moved in.

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she left there.

Mr. Jenner. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away?

Mrs. Boudreaux. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me—until he got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had—I don't know if it's important or not——

Mr. Jenner. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs. Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and then they never came back for the money, I don't think.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised all my children with it.

Mrs. Boudreaux. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't concerning them at all.

Mr. Jenner. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this investigation.

Mrs. Boudreaux. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the truth, and that's all I can do.

Mr. Jenner. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing the deposition?

Mr. Jenner. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here voluntarily and giving us your statement.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN

The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and have testimony before the Commission; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Jenner. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are deposing various people around the country whose lives came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. Peterman?

Mr. Jenner. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are you a native of this part of the country?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years ago that they lived there.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, let's see—I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 years ago that I moved there.

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the houses was sold40 at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, because she was in there first.

Mr. Jenner. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side of the street?

Mrs. Peterman. Right next door. There were three single homes on two lots, you see.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed theirs up different, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and so forth—give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and how large.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just straight houses.

Mrs. Peterman. When she moved there and we moved there; right around that time, you mean?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.

Mrs. Peterman. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she will be 46.

Mrs. Peterman. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.

Mrs. Peterman. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.

Mrs. Peterman. Her name was—when she was single, Welbrock, but she married, and now it's Kushler.

Mrs. Peterman. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's 34 right now.

Mr. Jenner. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending elementary school, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary school and high school at that time?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from high school?

Mrs. Peterman. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.

Mr. Jenner. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?

Mrs. Peterman. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years, maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about all.

Mrs. Peterman. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was dead, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra and Cecelia; is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard to recall all of that, to be exact.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right. We want you to just give us the information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I really don't know to be exact on that.

Mrs. Peterman. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going to school.

Mr. Jenner. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that would be Robert?

Mr. Jenner. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington Elementary at that time?

Mrs. Peterman. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I am not positive.

Mr. Jenner. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there, Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3 years.

Mrs. Peterman. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much with the neighbors.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead, living, or what. She never mentioned him.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that time, is that right?

Mrs. Peterman. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then later she opened a little dry goods store.

Mrs. Peterman. I won't say a dry goods store—more like a grocery store, I guess you would say—just a small place there in the front room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that.

Mrs. Peterman. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a short time—not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I know that was the only money she had coming in at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please; what kind of person she was.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, like I said—I don't know how to explain it, but she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a person that—I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with her, and she was a good mother to her children.

Mrs. Peterman. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether she did to the other neighbors, I don't know.

Mrs. Peterman. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that neighborhood, I—there are some people living around there right now that I couldn't44 tell you their name. I am always inside. I never go out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way.

Mrs. Peterman. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her business at all.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do today.

Mrs. Peterman. I mean children back in those days were not like children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the names of any other children in the neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John?

Mr. Jenner. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of those boys, do you think?

Mrs. Peterman. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small. My older ones might remember them.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you about it, or anything you might want to contribute?

Mrs. Peterman. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after she moved away we lost track of them.

Mr. Jenner. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you said, the man found you?

Mrs. Peterman. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and Marguerite took good care of him.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with your husband to talk to us.

Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S. attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, to read over your deposition and to sign it.

You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may come down and read your deposition and sign it.

Mrs. Peterman. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago.

Mrs. Peterman. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday, or the day before.

Mr. Jenner. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? You don't want to read it over and sign it?

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE EVANS

The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you here today, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. Evans. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her.

Mrs. Evans. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend—hers and mine, and we used to play bridge together.

Mrs. Evans. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a while, and she remarried—to Oswald.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, but I might have run into her—I imagine I did, on the street, but I lost contact with her, sort of, and then—it was either just before Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became friends again, as to what happened.

I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start seeing a good deal of her again until—let's see; she finally went to work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that. She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship.

Mrs. Evans. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh, Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and she said, "Yes."

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago, because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV, but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship," and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her."

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage, and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the child, and he wanted her to destroy the child.

Mr. Jenner. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about Marguerite Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them how about him riding them home.

47 Mrs. Evans. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie.

Mrs. Evans. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No, let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John.

Mr. Jenner. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John Pic now?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was, oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2 years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of it, because we got to be real good friends.

She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one on the way.

Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in this home—Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and she bought a home over on—what's the name of that street back off of St. Claude?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she had a woman taking care of the little boy.

Mrs. Evans. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute—I might be getting those streets confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in that home and went to work.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your information that she immediately went to work rather than try to live for a while without working?

Mrs. Evans. She might have lived for a month or two, or something, without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someone said——

Mrs. Evans. I don't know what couple it was—somebody; she had put an ad in the paper or something—some young couple. I don't know their names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair, that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now.

So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and—now, this is48 what she told me; she told me that she bought this little double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room there.

Mrs. Evans. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes some places, but we call them doubles.

Mrs. Evans. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with her three children.

Mrs. Evans. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think, still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other place—that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there—the early 1940's, I would say.

Mrs. Evans. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She would go down on Sundays to see her two boys.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister, but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I don't know—I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, something like that, you know, just go around a bit together.

Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she might have finally put him in there too.

You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died.

You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his father, I think, just as any mother would.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to 1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with your recollection?

Mrs. Evans. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working, and I didn't play cards then, you see.

She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it was about a year before she went to Texas. It's49 hard to recall those dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School?

Mrs. Evans. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places. That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he did get a divorce and married Margie.

Mrs. Evans. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I visited her.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.

50 Mrs. Evans. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see—yes, she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.

Mr. Jenner. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert, living at the home?

Mr. Jenner. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to travel, you say?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here, and she took an apartment with me.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind, let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say you visited them once in Texas, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas?

Mrs. Evans. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there, even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the time like that.

Mr. Jenner. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had the boys over at Covington?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been, but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it happening.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion.

Mrs. Evans. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would take something to remember all of those details.

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little fellow.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to support her children. She tried to support them herself.

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to take51 her and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much.

Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe both of them—I don't remember, but I think they both went into the Marines——

Mrs. Evans. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of course he never did see his father. His father never did care to see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's——

Mr. Jenner. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came back to New Orleans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly.

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant, and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course she went back to Texas.

I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be in Dallas for a show—some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with Margie.

Mrs. Evans. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.

Mrs. Evans. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of a bookworm, I would say.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself.

Mrs. Evans. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler, "Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs talking to me or52 something, and when he would holler at her, she would jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about 13 about that time, I think, along in there.

Mr. Jenner. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your apartments?

Mrs. Evans. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when they lived at my apartment.

Mrs. Evans. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't with Ekdahl any more when she came back here.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they returned from New York?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean, he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think. I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would say they were really a happy family in those days.

Mrs. Evans. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have been able to find out.

Mrs. Evans. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and made do the best she could.

Mr. Jenner. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with Margie then?

Mrs. Evans. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal card or something, but I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was when she came back to New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was living in Texas, before she went to New York?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. For a time she lived—what's the name of that little town?

Mrs. Evans. It could have been that. Anyway, I heard from her again, that she was traveling a lot with her husband. She was still living with Ekdahl then. They were living in hotels and traveling, and Lee was right with them all the time.

Mrs. Evans. I don't think that she ever parted with Lee for a minute. If53 she did, I don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she talked, I figured that Lee was with them the whole time, and they had lived in hotels and things like that while Mr. Ekdahl was traveling.

Mrs. Evans. Along in there; yes. She married him, I think, in Dallas, Tex., or maybe it was Fort Worth. I can't recall that for sure.

Mr. Jenner. But he had been here in New Orleans, and that's when they struck up this acquaintanceship, here in New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. His sister came down from Boston, is that right, to sort of see how he was getting along here, is that correct?

Mrs. Evans. That's right. I guess that's what prompted her to come down here, because he had had this trouble, and I guess she was concerned about him.

Mr. Jenner. And that courtship between him and Marguerite ripened into marriage then; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; she wanted her to marry Ekdahl, and before she went back to Boston, Margie made her a promise that she would look after him.

Mr. Jenner. And you think you might have heard from her at different times when she was traveling with her husband?

Mrs. Evans. Well, she called me, most likely. She was at her sister's. She was looking for an apartment.

Mrs. Evans. Lillian Murret. She had only that one sister here. She was a good many years older than Margie. Margie was the baby of the family. She took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept house for her father, too. I guess there is about 10 years difference between the two. That's why I guess they have not been too close. But anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and I told her I could give her an apartment, and that I would let her have it cheaper than I would somebody else that I didn't know. Now, they didn't have any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and her sister provided some things and I found a few things for her, so she made out with that.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I remodeled that apartment about 10 years ago, so I would say that that was around 1954, along in there, in the early spring, I think it was.

Mrs. Evans. Well, it might have been a little later. It could have been in May or June of 1954, but possibly a little earlier than that. I can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month.

54 Mrs. Evans. 1454 St. Mary Street, apartment 6, but now finally Margie decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the fact that I was renting it to her for less than I would have anybody else, and I told her that.

She came in one day and told me, "Myrtle, I am going to give the apartment up." She told me that she had seen a house out around St. Bernard that would be cheaper. She said she had rode around and looked at the house, and she thought that she would take it.

Mr. Jenner. She had no complaints about your apartment, did she? She just had found a cheaper place to move to?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. She said she liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; you see, I had this great big house with about 27 rooms or more.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they took one of them, you see—one of the smaller apartments. I had had one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little apartment.

Mr. Jenner. So she and her son Lee occupied that apartment for approximately 6 months, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, tell me about this period while they lived at your home. Just transport yourself back to 10 years ago. What did Lee Oswald look like?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and what did he do? What impression did he make on you then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult. Of course, I guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not yet grown and they are not a child either. The best of them are very trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. In that respect Lee wasn't any different than any other teenaged boy, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this was the period after which Lee returned from New York; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. What did they say to you as to why they returned from New York and came to New Orleans?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't know that they said anything, but it seems to me now that they came right from Texas over to New Orleans then, not right from55 New York. I could be mistaken there, but I think they went back to Texas from New York.

Maybe they did come right from New York, but I can't remember that far back. I know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, I just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that Lee evidently was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that they didn't get along—I mean, her and Ekdahl, because of Lee. Now, that's my opinion. She never told me why.

Mrs. Evans. Yes, sir; I can't help feeling that if she had put Lee in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and considering Mr. Ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. She wouldn't have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead her children came first, I mean, Lee. She just poured out all her love on him, it seemed like.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in New York City?

Mr. Jenner. She never said anything to you that would have given you an indication as to whether she had come from New York rather than Texas, or vice versa?

Mrs. Evans. No; not that I recall, but it is my distinct feeling that she stayed in New York awhile and then moved to Texas again, and then over to New Orleans—Fort Worth, I think, but I can't say that for sure.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything to you about any trouble that Lee had had in school in New York City?

Mrs. Evans. No; she never did. But I knew Ekdahl, and I knew he was a man that was set in his ways. He was older than Margie, and he wanted, evidently, a wife. He wanted her to be with him evidently, and if you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but now whether that caused the break or not, I don't know. I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. Jenner. The point I am getting at is, she didn't say anything to you about any problem or difficulties she had had with Lee in New York City?

Mrs. Evans. He was, somewhere around there—maybe 13 or 14. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Jenner. At any rate, you had a period here of several years between the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother, and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he was like and how he acted when you saw him in 1954, as against when you had seen him before that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I said, he was more spoiled than he was when he was younger. He was just a little boy when I first saw him, and this time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like I said, so I would say he was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was when he was younger.

The main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he demanded to be fed when he would come from school. Margie would be downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something to eat. He would just stand up there and yell, "Maw, how about fixing me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running upstairs to get something for him.

Now, he liked records. He didn't want to see any television, but he would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records, and listen to the radio, and read. He was a hard one to try to figure out. But other than that, he was, I would say, just an average, spoiled teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. There are very few of them that aren't that way.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a father56 to pull him down a bit. When you are raising a child alone, it's a hard row—I mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over them like a man can.

Mr. Jenner. Did she register him in school here in New Orleans when they came to live in your apartment?

Mrs. Evans. That was Beauregard, and I might say that she used her sister's address so she could get him in that school. It's a good school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time I believe she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district. That's the way I understand it anyway. I think there has been some confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is my understanding that that's why she used it. If she hadn't used her sister's address, he couldn't have gone to Beauregard probably, I mean, if she had moved to another district. So since she wanted him in Beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it.

Mr. Jenner. In order to get him in Beauregard, she used her sister's address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; that was a good school. I guess it still is, but she wanted him in there. Otherwise he would have had to go to another school.

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee a good student, according to information you received in that regard, if you did receive any such information?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I never saw his report cards, but I think he was a pretty good student. I really couldn't tell you that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice during this period that you had this recent, close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that he was inclined to be by himself?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come home from school, of course, a couple of hours before Margie, and he would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to entertain himself very well.

Mr. Jenner. Now, they had this change in 1955 from 1454 to 1452 St. Mary. Was that in the same building?

Mrs. Evans. I will tell you what happened there. There was this young couple that wanted that apartment, and I still hear from them. She sold them her furniture. They were the tenants after her, and she sold them some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and wanted her apartment back, but I told her that I had already rented her apartment to this young couple. I said, "Margie, what happened to the house you were going to get?" and she said, "I looked it over," and she said, "It's too far from a grocery store. I have no way of getting my groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient."

I told her, "Well, I've already rented the apartment to this young couple," and she said, "I want to keep my apartment," and I said, "But, Margie, I have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them some furniture," and she said, "Well, they can have the furniture," but she said, "Just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that I have got to keep it."

Well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. I told her, I said, "Margie, I just can't do that." To tell you the truth, the way Lee was acting up and all—he was very noisy, I didn't particularly want to do it. I knew, in the first place, that the girl simply couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she would be behind in her rent and everything. I think she was57 already about a month in arrears on the rent, and I just figured it would be better if I didn't give her the apartment back, so I told her that I couldn't do it, because I had already rented it to this couple. I knew that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard feelings if I let it go on that way, so I decided that it would be better to let it go the way it was going. It seemed to be the best way out of it. I thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go ahead and move now, rather than later, so I told her, I said, "Margie, if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper," and so, they did move next door. Now, I had told her that I was going to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let her down easy—you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went ahead and moved next door for a while.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; right next door. You see—I think I have skipped something. I told her that I wanted to get the apartment that she had been in fixed up, and that's how I talked her into taking the place next door, but then she started complaining and saying I was charging her too much rent for this place next door, and I wasn't getting the apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime Lee had gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his mother, and it was getting a little unbearable.

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" In what respects was he more determined?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he had a loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it got to be quite disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that was getting worse all the time; so I thought maybe it would be better if I didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and that's when she went to Exchange Alley.

Mrs. Evans. No; she was angry about the apartment, because I made her give it up. I mean I wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away. I don't think she ever got over that.

Mr. Jenner. When was the next time you heard from or heard about, Margie or Lee?

Mrs. Evans. The next thing I heard, they had moved back to Texas. They had left town.

Mrs. Evans. Well, her sister, Lillian, I saw her in Holmes or—let's see, maybe it was at the Fontainbleau, at a card party we were having—yes; I think that was it; she asked me if I had seen Margie, and I said, "No; I haven't seen or heard from Margie," and that's when she told me that she had heard Margie had moved back to Texas. I didn't know that at all. I had heard from several people that they had seen Margie downtown. She worked at three or four different places—you know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once in a while that I knew, and would say they had seen Margie downtown at some store or other, but I didn't see her, and then the next thing I knew she was supposed to be back in Texas, and then I ran into Lillian again later and she told me—this was at the Fontainbleau. Now, I have that straight. She told me then about the trouble Lee was in.

Mr. Jenner. Then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the Oswald family?

Mrs. Evans. Well, that was when Lee came to town, and they took an apartment up on Magazine Street. I can't remember that date now, but Lee got here a day or two before his wife came in.

Mrs. Evans. Well, I don't remember the date, but it seems like it was about the middle of May; maybe about May 16, or somewhere close to that.

Mr. Jenner. No; I think it was a little earlier than that, according to our information.

Mrs. Evans. Well, whatever date that was, that was the next time I saw him. I don't know if it was April or May, or even March; I don't know what date it was, but I got the apartment for him, and he moved in on the day he rented it, or the next day, I think.

Mr. Jenner. He moved in on the 10th; would that be about right; the day after he rented the apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Well, if he rented it on the 9th, then that would be about right. He moved in the day after, I think it was.

Mrs. Evans. I guess so; yes. That's when I saw him, on the 9th of May, and then he moved in on the 10th.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that apartment, Mrs. Evans.

Mrs. Evans. Well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to work. He says he recognized him then, but I don't remember it that way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted an apartment, and did I have an apartment to rent, and I didn't have anything in this building, but I told him about another building I was fixing up, and I told him I might be able to find something for him, and he told me he had a wife and child over in Texas, and that he was going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment, and that he had to find something right now. He said, "I want something right away."

When we were walking down the steps, I looked at him real hardlike, and I didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "I know you, don't I?" and he said, "Sure; I am Lee Oswald; I was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." I said, "Lee Oswald, what are you doing in this country? I thought you were in Russia. I thought you had given up your American citizenship and gone behind the Iron Curtain," and he said, "No," he said, "I went over there," he said, "but I didn't give up my citizenship." He said he had been back in the States for quite a while, and that he had brought his Russian wife back with him; so I told him I would help him look for a place; so I rang up this friend of mine, and I asked her, I said, "Vickie, do you happen to know where I can rent an apartment for a young couple with one little baby?" and she said, "Yes; Myrtle, I will take children. This is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "This is a nice little apartment, and I think they will like it," and I said, "How much?" and she said, "$65," and I said, "Well, he can't spend too much; he is just getting a new job."

Mrs. Evans. Charles—Charlie Maynard. She only saw him for about 15 minutes; she has no bearing on this.

Mrs. Evans. So she said, "Myrtle, bring him over, and I'll see you in about59 10 minutes," and I said, "We'll come up and see it," so we got in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive. It was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. They did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for the baby, but Lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. He told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so I said, "Well, come on, Lee; I don't know anybody that will take children," I said, "but we will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." So we rode in and out and all around Baronne and Napoleon and Louisiana Avenue, and Carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets, and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode down Magazine Street, and I said, "You might as well get as close to your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment."

Mr. Jenner. Had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the Reily Coffee Co.?

Mrs. Evans. Yes. He told me that he had just got a job with the Reily Coffee Co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. In fact, he was going to phone her to come over that Saturday, I believe he said.

Mrs. Evans. No; he just told me he was going to work for the Reily Coffee Co., and that he had been staying at Lillian's, and that he was anxious for his wife to come to New Orleans, and he said a friend was going to drive her over here; so we were coming down Magazine Street, and all of a sudden he said, "Oh, there's a sign," and I said, "Good," so I pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign, and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money.

It was really the most for your money, I'd say, so I said, "Lee," I said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford too much," and I said, "This is the best you can do," and I said, "If I were you, I would take it," and it had a living room that was a tremendous room.

Mrs. Evans. Well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words, and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long, and it had a Page fence.

Mrs. Evans. A Page fence—an iron fence, like they use around New Orleans. You may call them storm fences, but down here they call them Page fences.

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street. I mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. You can see through them—these sort of diagonals, I guess you would call them. Now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of caretakers. She lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the other side that they rented.

Mrs. Evans. I don't know. I had her phone number and her name, and I was going to call her—I did call her once that I remember, but, nevertheless, I told Lee to give her the money for the gas and light, in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned on, because he wanted his wife to come for Saturday. I think this must have been about Wednesday or Thursday that we were there. He said it would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife, who talked Russian, was going to bring her over to New Orleans, and bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home, and I think I went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and I think I ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, I think, and we talked, and I asked him, I said, "Well, how does it feel to be back in New Orleans?" and he said, "I have wanted to move back to New Orleans." He said, "New Orleans is my home," and he60 said, "I felt like I just wanted to come back," and he said, "You know, I like the old high ceilings and the trees and the French Quarter, and everything in New Orleans," and he said, "You know, in Russia the buildings are brand new," and we talked a little about Russia—not too much, but he did tell me how men over in Russia can't rent an apartment if they are not married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were all modern, and they are given to you by the Government, but that you can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more about Russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. I want to hear all about that.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; what did he say about defecting to Russia; anything he said about that?

Mrs. Evans. He said he didn't give up his American citizenship; that that was ridiculous. He told me that he just wanted to see the country over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any rent, and they had a modern apartment, I think, about on the fourth floor.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say it was only one room; that there was only one room to this apartment?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married.

Mr. Jenner. When he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several rooms—a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, no; I don't know that. I have never been to Russia. All I know is what he told me.

Mr. Jenner. But do you remember him distinctly telling you that his apartment had all of these rooms?

Mrs. Evans. No; I don't remember that. He just said it was a modern apartment. I remember him saying that. It could have been just one room.

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I say, I just don't know. He said it was a modern apartment, but other than that I don't know what else he said, I mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether I even asked him any more about it.

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he said they had an apartment; I remember that very plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. And he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted to defect, but that he had failed?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he said that he did not want to give up his American citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. He said, "I am an American," and he said, "I just went over there, just messing around."

Mr. Jenner. Did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his opinion of Russia and his reaction to the life he had in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad. I guess he was just a young man in love with this Russian girl, but he did say now that he had decided not to come back to the States until he could bring her with him. He did say that, so from that conversation I gathered that he evidently61 wanted to come back, but he had married into a Russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could.

Now, this Russian woman, I don't know if she was Russian born or not, but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught Russian.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the lady that brought Marina over to New Orleans from Texas?

Mr. Jenner. Well, we will get into that in a minute, Mrs. Evans; she's not a Russian woman, by the way. She's a girl from Columbus, Ohio, that was a Quaker.

Mrs. Evans. Well, she did speak Russian, and she was the lady friend of Marina that was going to bring Marina and the baby to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't learning the English language since she was living over here?

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have of Lee as of that visit, Mrs. Evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this apartment hunting tour? What did you think of Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he was, I would say, sort of arrogant. He seemed to think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much—I noticed all that. I asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother was fine, and I asked him about his brothers, because his brothers were both in Texas, and I believe one of them has a child or two, or something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right. We were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. You know how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something—like we were looking for apartment signs. We were getting out and looking, and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about things in general.

Mrs. Evans. Well, you know—I don't know, just the way he talked, and walked around, I guess. I don't know what gives you that feeling when you are around somebody like that. He was just different.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think he considered himself superior to anybody else, or to his fellow Americans, or anything like that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to anybody else. He acted normal in that respect, I guess, but he talked about Russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said, "It's good to be back in the United States," and he said he would have come back before he did if it had not been for this Russian girl that he married. He said he had been in Texas 8 months then, and I said, "Well, what made you come back to New Orleans?" and he said, "Well, you know, this is my home, and I wanted to see my family."

Mrs. Evans. Yes. He said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or unhappy in Russia?

Mrs. Evans. No; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had to wait until he could bring her out of the country.

62 Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his objectives were in life now that he was back home?

Mrs. Evans. Not when he came to my house. He said he had been staying at his aunt's.

Mrs. Evans. No; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig into things, and he liked music and books.

Mrs. Evans. Well, symphony—more of the highbrow stuff, I guess you would say. I don't really remember because this was so many years ago, and I didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would come down to my apartment.

Mrs. Evans. His mother, but I know he liked to listen to his records a lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. His mother would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work, she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the way it was with Margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, I guess you would call it.

Then after they moved to Texas, like I said, I didn't hear from them for quite awhile, and then Lee came back and came to the house, and we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if I could come up and meet Marina.

Mr. Jenner. How long was this after he had moved into the apartment, can you remember?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, I'd say about a week or so, and anyway I thought it would be nice to go up and meet Marina, and I told him we would try to come up, because I would like to meet his wife, and he said, "Just come anytime." He said she was anxious to meet me. Well, of course, I was busy, so I didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen, and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or something, and it told about this scuffling over this Cuban thing.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you there for a minute now. That's the first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that Lee Oswald was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes; I had no idea that he was mixed up in anything like this, and I was shocked when I saw his face come on the screen passing out these handbills in connection with this Cuban thing, so I told my husband, "Well, they said he went to Russia to give up his American citizenship; well, maybe he has." I said, "I am certainly not going up there now," so I didn't go, and I don't know whether this was before that or after that, but I called up the lady that had rented the apartment to them—I had asked her for her phone number at the time, and I told her at the time that I would try to send her some tenants, so she did give me the number, so I called one time to see how the Oswalds were getting along. Evidently this must have been after that. I don't remember. So anyway I called and said——

Mrs. Evans. Yes; that's right; Garner. I told her, I said, "This is Myrtle63 Evans, who helped Lee Oswald get that apartment; how are the Oswalds getting along," and she said, "You know, they are a queer kind of people," and she said, "I just told him, 'After all, how do you expect your wife and your child ever to speak the English language when all you ever talk to them is in Russian'?" She said, "I told him, 'This girl doesn't know a word of English, and I can't converse with her at all'," and she said, "I asked him why he didn't talk to her in English and let her learn some English so that she can talk to the people that live here in this country, instead of always in Russian."

Mrs. Evans. Well, she said he didn't say anything. She said she tried to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of English, so she couldn't understand her anyway. She said that Lee had for some reason always talked to her in Russian. She said she told him, "She will never learn to speak English if you keep talking to her in Russian." Now, that must have been prior to the time that I saw this deal on television, and then the next thing I knew about Lee, it was all over television, that he had killed the President, and the rest of it you know. I didn't even know he was back in Texas. I thought he was still living on Magazine Street and working at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mrs. Evans. No; because I never did go back when I saw this flash about the Cuban situation on TV and Lee's picture all over the screen. I said "If he is Russian, I don't want to get dragged into it. Maybe they will think I had something to do with it."

Mrs. Evans. That's right; I didn't want to take a chance in getting involved in anything like that. However, I will say this, I would have loved to meet Marina. Maybe you can call it curiosity, or something, but I did want to meet her. She seems to be such a lovely person. I couldn't tell you where they lived in Texas. I never heard from them any more after that. I would have liked to tell his mother how sorry I felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but I just don't know how to go about something like that now. I guess it's just one of those things, but I sure do feel sorry for her.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this: In the time that you knew Lee, did he pretty much get his own way? Would you be able to say as to that?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I would say he did; definitely. She would try to give him everything he wanted—that she could, I mean, and do everything he wanted her to do. I've seen that happen many times in the time that I knew them and especially while they lived at my house. I mean, she couldn't give him a lot of material things. She just didn't have much, you know, but she would try to pacify him. That boy was so inclined to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. I guess no one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. They called him a "loner", and I guess that's about the best description you can give him. He was certainly a quiet type boy.

Mr. Jenner. What did you observe with respect to his relations with other children? Just how did he regard them?

Mrs. Evans. Well, to be truthful with you, I never really saw him with anyone except his mother practically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall when you had a discussion with Marguerite with respect to her leaving Lee with a couple?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, yes. Marguerite told me that she had this couple at her home looking after Lee. Lee wasn't 3 at that time, you see, and so he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home, and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she put them out that night. Now, who they were or what their names where, I don't know, but she said that no one would take Lee, and she just didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why she got this couple in the first place.

Mrs. Evans. Because he was too young, that's right. The older boys could be put in a home—in fact, of course, they were, but Lee was not yet 3 years old, and they have to be 3 before a home will take them.

She didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back, so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry she ever did that.

Mr. Jenner. You say Lee denied to you during your discussion with him that he had ever tried to give up his American citizenship?

Mrs. Evans. Yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just wanted to see the country, over in Russia, and see how they live and how the country looks, and so he went into Russia and got a job there and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some way to get her out of the country. Actually he didn't seem to want to talk too much about it, and I didn't try to pump him too much, but I was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had really happened. I do feel that he was sympathetic with the Communist system of government, I mean, of the Russian system, but now I was only with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and I was surprised when I heard that.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he said the boys where in Texas, and that his mother was fine, and that she was in Texas, and I think Robert, or one of them, had a couple of children. I think that was Robert that had a couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like that, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the United States, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to Lee?

Mrs. Evans. Well, like I said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward Russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the United States, and that the only reason he was in Russia working at all was because he had married this Russian girl and wanted to get her out of the country, or he would have been back sooner.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about his having served in the Marines, anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was in the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Well, I sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his aunt; I don't know, but I don't even remember if Lee mentioned that fact in our discussion that day. I don't really remember that. I do know that he always wanted to go in the Marines.

Mrs. Evans. Well, because when he was going to Beauregard, he wanted to be a marine.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high school, but he still lived there?

Mr. Jenner. But while they were living in your apartment, did he actually express a desire to go into the Marines?

65 Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since it wound up that they were both in the Marines?

Mrs. Evans. Well, yes; I think he wanted to be like his brothers; they were both in the service, you know. I think John was a marine, but I can't remember what branch of the service Robert was in.

Mrs. Evans. As long as I have known Lee though, he has wanted to be in the Marines. That's one of the things he said he always wanted to do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly Lee?

Mrs. Evans. No; but Margie was satisfied that her children were going into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that they would go in the service after they got out of high school.

Mrs. Evans. No; because I never even met his wife. I never went there at all. He called me, like I said, and told me that his wife had come to New Orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit them and meet her, and I said, "Lee, I am going to try to come," and I said, "You-all come to see us," and he said, "Come just any time." He said Marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at any time.

Mr. Jenner. I have no further questions, but I would like to ask you this general question, Mrs. Evans:

Does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, either because I neglected to do so or because I haven't learned about it? If you can think of anything, I will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say his character, and I'm talking about Lee now, would you say it was strong or weak, or what? For example, did he give way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control?

Mrs. Evans. Well, he could get angry with his mother. That was when he was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do. Of course, I don't know anything about his manhood, because I was only in his company about 3 or 4 hours then.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? That's what I'm getting at.

Mrs. Evans. Well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type of person. He was what I would call deep. He wasn't real friendly. To like him, you would have to know him. I mean, even as a child, you didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course I didn't have too much contact with him. Most of my contact with with his mother.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Mrs. Evans, I appreciate very much your coming in and giving me this information, and I know it will be helpful to the Commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this matter.

Now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read your deposition over and to sign it. It is also your privilege to waive that. In other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you want to. You can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to Washington, but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it, and you will be notified by the United States Attorney here when to come in and read and sign it.

66 As I have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other than by the Commission when and if the Commission deems it necessary.

What is your pleasure on that now, Mrs. Evans? Do you want to read and sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that?

Mrs. Evans. Oh, I will waive it. I have just told what I know about it, and that's all I can tell you.

Mr. Jenner. You wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. All right; thank you again, Mrs. Evans, for appearing here voluntarily, and giving us this information.

TESTIMONY OF JULIAN EVANS

The testimony of Julian Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Julian Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Evans just left this room after giving her deposition, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. During your lifetime you came to know the Oswald family, is that right?

Mr. Evans. That's right. I met them for the first time when we were across the lake, around Covington, La.—the three boys and Marguerite, and Pic—no; I mean Ekdahl; that was before she married him.

67 Mr. Jenner. They were then living over in Covington, and that was during the summer, is that right?

Mr. Evans. No; I don't remember that address. I think they rented a place over there.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there are two addresses given for that place, 611 West 24th Street, Covington, La., and 311 Vermont Street, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Ekdahl was there with Marguerite and the children, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Yes, he was there, and I talked to him. He was a lot older than she was, you know.

Mr. Evans. Very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. He seemed to know his business. He talked about rocks and ore and things like that, and I enjoyed talking to him. That's the only time I have ever seen him.

Mr. Jenner. I forgot, Mr. Evans, but you did receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel for the Commission, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with that letter was Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And Executive Order No. 11130 of Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties?

Mr. Jenner. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as in your case; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. You became aware, I take it, from these documents that you received that the Commission was empowered and directed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I represent the legal staff of the Commission, along with Mr. Liebeler, and our purpose for being here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have had with the Oswald family, and particularly Lee Oswald, during his lifetime, and we understand that both you and Mrs. Evans did have some contact with the Oswalds, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Mrs. Evans stay over at Covington more than a day on this occasion that you began to tell me about?

Mr. Jenner. And this was in 1946, so Lee would have been 6 or 7 years old, is that right?

Mr. Evans. I think they were in school. They were on vacation, I believe, because this was during the summer; I am pretty sure they were on vacation over there.

Mr. Jenner. The two boys, that is, John and Robert, they were in a school that was different from the school that Lee was attending, if he was attending school, is that right?

Mr. Evans. Well, I don't know if he was attending school or not, but I don't think they went to the same school. These other boys went to an out-of-town school, I think.

Mr. Jenner. That's what I was getting at. I was trying to have you say it voluntarily, rather than me say it. Do you understand that they were attending a military school over in Mississippi?

Mr. Jenner. No; in Texas; this was just a summer vacation over in Covington, isn't that right?

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you get as to the life and habits and personality of Mr. Ekdahl and Marguerite and Lee, that is, when they were not on vacation—when they were moving from place to place in the pursuit of Mr. Ekdahl's line of business, from city to city?

Mr. Evans. Well, I think Marguerite and Ekdahl got along pretty well, except for the kid. I mean, he wanted his own way about everything.

Mr. Jenner. That was quite apparent to you even though this was vacation time when you saw them over in Covington?

Mr. Jenner. I said, was this apparent to you even when they were on this picnic over in Covington that you told us about?

Mr. Evans. Yes; you could notice that. It seemed like all his life, Lee wanted his way, and that's what he wanted.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not?

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first time that you had met either Marguerite or Ekdahl?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's the first time. I may have met Marguerite before but not Ekdahl, and not the boys either, but Marguerite was working on Canal Street in some hosiery shop, and I might have seen her there. I know Myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so I probably had met her before. I just don't remember now.

Mr. Evans. She was a very fine person, a nice looking woman—well educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression that Mr. Ekdahl and she, apart from this vacation, traveled a lot?

Mr. Evans. That's right. They were living in Texas for awhile, I believe, and then he did some traveling in Texas, New York, and other places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went.

Mr. Jenner. You and Mrs. Evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with Marguerite, did you not?

Mr. Evans. That's right. Of course, my wife knew her more years than I did. She knew her a long time before she was even married.

Mr. Jenner. That was before you had any contact with the Oswald family, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Has your wife given you any of the details regarding the background of the Oswald family?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife told you, because we have taken her deposition, but I just want to know what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married to Mrs. Evans when the Oswalds lived at 1454 St. Mary?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about that. How did that come about? How did you first come to know them.

Mr. Evans. Well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't get along, or something.

Mr. Evans. Yes; I think her and the boys were living there, and they couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, but not for the same amount of money, or something like that—I don't know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the French Quarter.

Mr. Evans. Well, it's some little short street down in the French Quarter, you know, right off of Canal. It's not such a good neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that.

Mr. Evans. Exchange Alley, yes; that's it. We took them on vacation one time on a week end across the lake with us.

Mr. Evans. At Sun, La. They are in the sand and gravel business over there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they stock it themselves70 and they have some nice fish in there, and so Lee and the boys were down there fishing, but Lee didn't talk to the other kids or anything. He just seemed to want to be alone, and he just fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank after he would catch them. Now, the other small boys would catch them and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would throw the others back, but not Lee. He would pull them in and just throw them down on the river—I mean on the bank by the pond and just let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left them there. Something like that is hard to understand. He didn't catch them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. He just left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. We couldn't understand that at all. It showed how totally inconsiderate he was of everything. It was a good example of how he acted, and his general attitude.

Mr. Evans. Yes; somewhere around there. I believe he was going to Warren Easton at the time, or he went to Easton shortly after that.

Mr. Evans. Yes; and then he went to Warren Easton when he was about 14, I think. He wouldn't talk much. If you talked to him, maybe he would answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. That's the last time I saw him until he came back from Texas looking for a place to stay.

Mr. Jenner. When Lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? I mean, did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant?

Mr. Evans. Well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he would holler real loud, "Maw, how about something to eat?"

Mr. Evans. Yes; real demanding, and loud. He wanted her to come right now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed.

Mr. Jenner. It was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he was home, or anything like that?

Mr. Evans. No; it was real demanding. He would know where she was when she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have to go right now.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the regular time?

Mr. Evans. Oh, about the regular time, I think. I don't think he ever stayed away from school. I think he went to school all right, but, I mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. That was the thing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember anything about his habits? Did he stay in the apartment, or go out, or what?

Mr. Evans. He stayed mostly in the apartment. Now, when he lived upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. He always had a few books around, paper covered books.

Mr. Evans. Well, I don't know. I can't answer that, but he did a lot of reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, I think.

71 Mr. Evans. Yes, he read; he read all the time. I mean, from what I noticed by him being around the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered about, or that you thought unusual or strange?

Mr. Evans. He seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times—always thinking. He was hard to get to.

Mr. Evans. No; I can't say that I ever did. I don't think anybody did. I don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was nobody could figure him out. It was hard to get to him or to understand him. He didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. He never went out of his way to make friends, I mean, from what I knew of him.

Mr. Jenner. He sort of shied away from friends, or people who might have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him?

Mr. Evans. Yes; that's it. You would try to be nice to him, but he wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't appreciate it. My sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with him when we had him across the lake to their house. They asked him to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be by himself. Finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any attention to him. Kids are like that, you know. If he wanted to be that way, that was all right with them. They just went ahead and enjoyed themselves, and to heck with him. They didn't let him bother them at all with the way he acted.

Mr. Jenner. As I gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "OK, we won't be friendly; see if we care"; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was given there as 1454 and then later it was changed to 1452; what was that all about? Could you explain that?

Mr. Evans. Well, there was nothing to that. They just moved from upstairs to downstairs. We were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, that's when she got mad and left, but, really, Lee had become very noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have him back in that apartment for that reason—because he was actually disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. You could really tell when he was home.

Mr. Evans. Oh, yes; in fact, Lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't seem to care who heard him or what he said. You knew he was home, all right.

Mr. Jenner. Did some friction arise between Mrs. Evans, the landlady, and Mrs. Oswald about that time?

Mr. Evans. Yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that at all, and then she moved away.

Mr. Evans. Yes; I would say that. He had what I would call a foghorn voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. He would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. He had a good speaking voice, though; I will say that; very good.

Mr. Jenner. Now, after this incident in which Marguerite took over other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about or have any contact with either Marguerite or Lee Oswald?

Mr. Evans. Yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, I think, and I was about to leave for work, because I was due at work pretty soon, but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and she helped him get an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything unusual about Lee when you first met him that day?

Mr. Evans. Well, when I shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything.

Mr. Evans. That's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's the way he shook hands.

Mr. Evans. That's right. His hand was not solid, like the average person that you shake hands with. It was soft. I had understood that he had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of a mechanic.

Mr. Jenner. Had you heard anything about him before he came to your house that day?

Mr. Jenner. All right; we'll get to that in a minute. When he got to your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he could find one, or what?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and they sat down and we talked a few minutes before I had to leave.

Mr. Evans. He hadn't changed. He was talking a little more. I noticed that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was the same Lee Oswald.

Mr. Evans. Yes; I recognized him. We talked for a little bit, but I had to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because I had to get to work. I was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so I didn't get to see him for very long that morning. When I left, my wife was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, and at that point I had to leave. I left then and went to the office. Later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. Evans. That's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over from Texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over.

Mr. Jenner. Did your wife question him in your presence about his alleged attempt to defect to Russia, and whether or not he had renounced his American citizenship?

Mr. Evans. Well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. He said he was only a tourist in Russia, or something like that. He said he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did not intend to ever give up his American citizenship. The next thing we knew, we were watching television,73 and his picture came on there, as big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. I think it was on Canal Street—no; I think that was on Bolivar. Anyway, the signs read, "Free Cuba," or something like that.

Mr. Evans. Well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on Magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not to go. She said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Then neither you nor your wife visited them at their apartment on Magazine Street; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of President Kennedy at this breakfast that you had with your wife and Lee that morning he first showed up—at least, before you left for work?

Mr. Jenner. Was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were there, at least?

Mr. Evans. No. Like I said, I just finished a cup of coffee and left. I had to get to the office.

Mr. Evans. No; I didn't. I never did actually see anything like that, but I could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother and so forth. I mean, but I never did actually see him at times like that. He would be up in the apartment. From what I could hear, though, I could tell that he was very demanding of her.

Mr. Evans. Well, I thought he was a psycho. I really did. He was so young to be acting the way he did. Of course, there is no doubt that his mother really spoiled him. She would do just about anything he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or anything like that, and I understand that he was the cause of his mother's divorce from Ekdahl. Ekdahl said that Lee was more demanding of his mother than he was, and he was her husband.

Mr. Evans. I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken—a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She has really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no other way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks old.

Mr. Evans. That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing74 on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.

Mr. Jenner. Were you home when her picture came on television, along with this news of the President's assassination and Oswald's arrest?

Mr. Evans. I immediately called my wife, and I said, "Do you have the television on?" and she said, "No," and I said, "Well, put it on." I said, "They are holding Lee Oswald as the assassin," and she said, "No; that can't be!" and I said, "Turn on the television and see for yourself."

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever observe anything about Lee Oswald that would lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence on the person of anybody else?

Mr. Evans. Yes; he was. He had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his age, anyway; so I guess all that reading he did must have accounted for that. Also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother or wanted her to do something for him. I used to think it was pretty awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. She would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that she could. But he did have a booming voice. You don't see a voice in a kid like that, at 13 years old, very often. His voice was just about changing then, at that early age.

Mr. Jenner. Did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other children?

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of this man in general when he came back to New Orleans in 1963 and you had occasion to see him?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, Oswald; what was his status with relation to income or the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? What did you learn about that?

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression; that he had no money, or any outside source of money?

Mr. Evans. Yes. He couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife and child. He had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he couldn't afford anything better. He did not have money; that's what seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. We just figured if he was getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for anything.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think it possible that he might have received any substantial quantities from any other source?

Mr. Evans. No; I don't. Even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he didn't have a coat on that I ever saw.

Mr. Evans. Just a sport shirt is all, when I saw him. I don't know of any other income he could have had. Of course, his mother might have been helping him. If it was possible, I know she would have helped him. I don't think his brothers helped him any.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation; anything that I might not have asked you about,75 or that I just didn't know about, and that you think might be of assistance to us in this investigation?

Mr. Jenner. Now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your deposition. However, you don't have to do that. You can waive that right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to Washington, to the Commission. Now, what is your preference in that regard?

Mr. Evans. Yes; I can't think of anything else besides what I have already told you. I didn't actually know Lee too well, because he just wasn't the type of man you could get close to. He just sort of lived in his own world, I guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at least that was my impression, and I did have enough contact with him that I could arrive at my own opinion.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Mr. Evans. Thank you very much for coming in voluntarily and answering these questions.

TESTIMONY OF PHILIP EUGENE VINSON

The testimony of Philip Eugene Vinson was taken at 2 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you rise and I will administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission To Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission's rules require that a witness be given 3 days' notice prior to the time that he can be required to testify. I don't think you have been given 3 days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that notice if you want to.

I assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to waive it and go ahead.

Mr. Liebeler. I want to give you now a copy of the Executive order that I just mentioned, plus the Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking of testimony from witnesses. You may keep those documents and refer to them as you wish.

The Commission understands that you were a classmate of Lee Harvey Oswald in the second grade?

Mr. Liebeler. While that may not seem to have too much relationship to the events of last November, one of the purposes of the Commission is to try to determine, assuming Oswald's guilt, his motive. In that area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some relevance.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like you to state your full name.

76 Mr. Liebeler. You are presently employed as a reporter for a Fort Worth newspaper, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any particular specialty, or just a general reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing?

Mr. Vinson. We have a bureau in Arlington, Tex., which specializes in covering suburban news in the community between Dallas and Fort Worth, and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and I am one of the two reporters in this bureau at this time.

Mr. Liebeler. So you are actually presently located or based in Arlington; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you been doing this same work ever since you went to work for the newspaper?

Mr. Vinson. When I started, I was given the routine work that most beginner reporters assume. You start out writing obituaries and just general assignments on the city side or working through the city editor, and I did that for about 6 weeks.

During this time I was doing this 4 days a week, while on Saturday they were training me to take over the police reporters job. And I worked 4 days out of the main office and 1 day from the police station for about 6 weeks.

And then around the first of September I became a full-time police reporter for the Evening Star Telegram, and I worked as a police reporter until about October the 1—excuse me, until about, I would say, around October 20, the latter part of October. I don't know the dates exactly, but I stayed as a police reporter for a little less than 2 months. Then the management decided that they were going to establish this bureau in Arlington, and I was chosen along with another reporter to come out to work in Arlington.

Mr. Vinson. It is just at the beginning of the Panhandle. It is about 120 miles west of Wichita Falls and about 150 miles southeast of Amarillo, just at the base of the Panhandle.

Mr. Vinson. I lived there until the summer of 1947, with one exception. We moved to Fort Worth in 1945, 1946, for a short time, about 3 months, and my father was working in Fort Worth, but my mother and I, there was this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to live, so we moved back to Childress until my father was able to find us a place to live. That was in the summer of 1946, as I recall now, because I started to school in the first grade in Childress that fall.

Mr. Vinson. Yes; in the summer of 1947, we moved to Fort Worth, and that fall I started to school in Fort Worth, and that would have been the second grade.

Mr. Liebeler. While you were in attendance at the Lily B. Clayton School, did you know another student by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own words about what you remember about Lee Oswald as you knew him in the second grade?

Mr. Vinson. Well, I have no idea when I first saw him or actually became acquainted with him. The best I remember, he was there when I got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there before I got there.

The thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little groups, and I remember the boys called them gangs.

We used to say, "Are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, I don't know if they were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being the leaders.

But there were, I couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and I recall fairly vividly that Lee Oswald was one of the leaders of one of these gangs. And we would do, one gang would start chasing the other gang. It was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around.

Mr. Vinson. In our second grade class, and I venture to say there may be 15 or so.

Mr. Vinson. I imagine from the way classes generally run, they were—there were probably about 30 students in our room, in our class, and I can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but I would say maybe 15 or 16, or maybe a little less boys.

And maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people in addition to the leader. This has been so long ago that it is very vague, but I do remember this.

And I remember that Oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it seemed that the other boys used to look up to his—let me start over. They seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of little guys, but I remember we would make reference to Lee being big and strong and this sort of thing. And this could be because, from what I judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a year. The age makes a little more difference at that period than later on.

And it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a member of his little group.

And they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a tough-guy type, although not as a bully.

78 Mr. Vinson. Not that I remember. I don't think he was at all because I remember several other boys who were, and I just don't recall that he had any tendencies like that.

Mr. Vinson. No; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out on the schoolground. Really not out of anger.

Mr. Liebeler. He never had any occasion to fight with these other boys who you have described as bullies?

Mr. Vinson. No; I don't. Like I say, this was just a playlike sort of thing, you know, and I don't know that.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else about Oswald and these out-of-school activities?

Mr. Vinson. Out of the classroom, no; I don't know. In the classroom, I don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. Maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and I remember that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and I don't remember Oswald ever having this happen to him.

He might have been called down for talking or something. Of course just about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very—my recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. Just he didn't make a lot of noise. He didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. He just seemed to be a quiet type of kid.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think that his position as gangleader or one of the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size?

Mr. Vinson. Yes; I think that had a great deal to do with it. I think he was not tall. I was looking at our class picture, and there were several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. And this is something that I don't really remember. I was talking to our teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at all.

Mr. Vinson. Mrs. Florine Murphy, and she still teaches the second grade at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class who had remembered him.

Mr. Vinson. I know who he is. I remember that he was in my room that year. We moved from that area uptown, and I only went to that school 1 year, and I remember his name, and I remember who he was, and I had occasion to see him several other times in Fort Worth.

He went to TCU over there, and I think he was a cheerleader or something, and I saw him at the TCU football games, and I just had run across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. I just saw him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school.

Mr. Vinson. Yes; I think I didn't try hard enough. I think I just didn't get an answer at the house or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Mrs. Murphy tell you what conversation she had with Barnes about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Let me back up a minute. I believe she told me that she talked to Barnes' mother rather than Barnes himself, and Barnes' mother repeated something that Barnes had told her about remembering Oswald.

79 Mr. Liebeler. Well, for whatever it is worth, what did Mrs. Murphy tell you that Mrs. Barnes had told her, that Bill Barnes had told his mother about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, but it just goes along with the whole business. Barnes said that he remembered Oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of Popeye, "I eat me spinach".

That I do remember, although as far as Oswald speaking is concerned, I recall that I thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would say things like "Give me dat," or "dis" for this, and I took somehow I took, or associated this with New England or New York or Brooklyn or something, and I think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the gangsters were always from Brooklyn and talked with a Brooklyn or sort of dialect, and somehow I thought this made him tough.

But I later found out, of course, that he had lived in New Orleans and possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a speech impediment. I don't know, but I do remember that was what—was one thing that I do recall about him was the way he spoke.

Mr. Liebeler. Apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any particular difficulty getting along with the other boys?

Mr. Vinson. Not that I recall at all. Now, I don't know what he did after—outside of school. Like I say, to my knowledge, I knew a good many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever played with him or went to his house for anything after school. They could have, but I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact that Oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground?

Mr. Vinson. It didn't at the time. However, it did later, it seemed strange now. I don't recall that I thought anything at all about it at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. But you knew of none of the boys who ever went to Oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or outside of the playground, at that time?

Mr. Vinson. I didn't, but I somehow had the notion perhaps I had seen him walking home, but I had an idea about where he lived, about where I thought he lived, however, I don't know. I never went to his house or I never knew anyone who did, or anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald after you left the second grade at Lily B. Clayton School and moved away to another section at Fort Worth?

Mr. Vinson. If I did, I don't recall. It is possible, because I do recall that I ran across several of the kids that I had gone to school with over there after I moved away, but I don't know whether he was one of them. I just don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. What school did you go to? What school after you left Lily B. Clayton?

Mr. Vinson. No. I went to that school from the third grade to the sixth grade, and then to junior high for 3 years.

Mr. Vinson. Well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. I went there in the fall of 1958, and the spring of 1959. The fall of 1959 and the spring of 1960. Part of the summer of 1960. Half of the summer, one semester. I did not go to college at all in the fall of 1960.

Then in the spring of 1961 I went back to Arlington State College, and in the fall of 1961, I went to Arlington State College, and the spring of 1962 I transferred to North Texas University in Denton. I went there that semester, both semesters, all of 1962, and the spring of 1962. The spring of 1963—excuse me, and half of the summer of 1963.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever met anybody since you moved away from Lily B. Clayton that knew Oswald either at Lily B. Clayton or anywhere else?

Mr. Vinson. I talked on the telephone to Richard Garrett. I wrote an article in the Star Telegram dealing with the fact that I had gone to school with Oswald in the second grade, and I couldn't pin it down and we really went off half-cocked without being certain when I wrote the story, when the story was published, although I did remember the name, and I had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although I could never find the teacher that—the day I was trying to do this and I couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in the second grade.

But nevertheless, I went ahead and did the article, but I was trying to contact everyone I could who had known him, to see if they could help me, and I talked to Richard Garrett who is mentioned in the Life Magazine story. He had known of Oswald in the sixth grade, and he had seen Oswald again when Oswald came to Arlington Heights High School for a short time, and he told me just a few things.

I didn't talk to him long. I asked him, of course, if he recalled what elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although he knew that he had gone to some others in Fort Worth.

Mr. Vinson. No. Oswald left Lily B. Clayton, according to Don Jackson who wrote this Life article. He did some real extensive research on it. I see you have a copy there.

Mr. Liebeler. You are referring to the article on Oswald which appears in the February 21, 1964, issue of Life Magazine, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. On page 69, it quotes Garrett. It was the fifth and sixth grades. I was trying to find which school it was. I believe it was Ridglea West Elementary School.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you this or you just said this on the basis of the article?

Mr. Vinson. Yes, he told me this, too. Well, actually, I can't remember offhand, but I was just trying to refer to this to see if this is accurate, and I feel sure, I believe it was Ridglea West.

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Ridglea West Elementary was Mrs. Clyde Livingston. And then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend.

Mr. Vinson. Well, as far as the school is concerned, I don't remember offhand. I think it was Ridglea West. Garrett told me that he had known Oswald81 in the fifth and sixth grades, or I believe that is what he says in here. I believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then he said that he saw him again in high school when Oswald came to high school at Arlington Heights High School. And he said he approached him, that Oswald approached Garrett something to the effect that, asked him if he remembered him from grade school, and I believe Garrett said that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and remembered who he was. And he told me that Oswald mentioned something about communism to him somehow. He was trying to sell Garrett on the idea of communism.

Mr. Vinson. That was what Garrett said, and Garrett said he went to the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not see Oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or expelled or what the situation was.

Mr. Liebeler. He never associated with Oswald to any particular degree at this point?

Mr. Vinson. Not at this point. He said he "shied away from him after he gave me this communism pitch."

Mr. Liebeler. Did Garrett tell you when this was? What grade in high school he was in?

Mr. Vinson. If he did, I don't recall. I think it was the sophomore year in high school, the 10th grade. It says in this article, but if this has got to come from my recollection, I would think it was the 10th grade.

Mr. Vinson. That is all. I just let him go because he couldn't help me much. Somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he remembered about him, and I was just trying to pin down what school Oswald went to in the second grade, at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. You said that you yourself wrote an article in the Fort Worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with Oswald in the second grade?

Mr. Vinson. No; I don't. I thought about bringing one, but I don't know if that would be needed or not, since what I am telling you is in effect what I said in there. I don't think there is anything I haven't told you that is in there, with the exception, I think I mentioned something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good grades.

Now this was just something I am not sure of, but that is just the way it seemed. And I mentioned something else that to the best of my memory he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. I don't recall that he had any difficulty, because I remember several who did, and he was not among those that I recall as having trouble along those lines.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than Garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to anybody who knew Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. No; I hadn't. Well, excuse me, yes, I have, too, on the telephone. I talked to Mrs. Livingston who is mentioned in this story. Some people from Life contacted me that saw the story I had in the Star Telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in Fort Worth for their story, and I made a few phone calls for them, and I did talk to Mrs. Livingston. But what I talked to her about was not about Oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. It was just who had a picture that Life could borrow.

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Don Jackson, the author of the story came down, and at that time she said she didn't know of any. However, Jackson came down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at the bottom of the page. One which shows him on the playground, and the other which shows Mrs. Livingston with a dog that Oswald had given her.

Mr. Liebeler. You are referring to pages 68-B and 69, of the Life Magazine which we mentioned above?

82 Mr. Vinson. No; because that was not when I was in the second grade, or in the same school with him. I believe that was in the fourth grade. Maybe the third.

Mr. Liebeler. The scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to be near the Lily B. Clayton School?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to Jackson personally in connection with this article?

Mr. Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported to you as having said on page 68-B? In the article, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. Yes. Excuse me, could you ask me that again I am not sure I understand.

Mr. Liebeler. You told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported you as having said on page 68-B, in the article, is that correct?

Mr. Vinson. What he reported to me as having said is taken from the story that I wrote in the Star Telegram.

Mr. Vinson. I did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather than use what I told him, I don't know why, for some reason he just quoted from my story. He didn't attribute that statement to the story. However, I noticed——

Mr. Liebeler. But it is a direct quote of what you had said in your story in the Fort Worth Star?

Mr. Vinson. I believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of the paragraph. Let me look at it. Where it says according to our code, I believe the wording was, "According to the code of us 7- and 8-year olds being in Lee's gang was a high honor." I believe that is about the only big change.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any other conversations with Jackson about Oswald other than what we have discussed here about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. Well, one day he came by the office in Arlington and talked to me for about an hour, and I told him what I have told you about what I remembered about Oswald, and then I gave him the information that I had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. And this was something else I was getting around to. I did talk to some of the people named in this story, in Fort Worth, in an attempt to get some pictures, and he went to—went ahead and contacted them anyway after I had already talked to them. He was a little more persistent than I was, and it is his story and his job, and I was just doing it in my spare time, but I didn't get too far in locating any pictures, and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the people that I had already talked to. One of whom was Nick Ruggieri, who at that time, or at the time Oswald came to high school, was B-team football coach at Arlington Heights High School, and Oswald had come out for football. Now this is not what Ruggieri told me. This is what Jackson told me and what I have read in the story.

Mr. Vinson. Yes. And he told me he barely remembered the kid, something to that effect. He said he had come out for a few days and just didn't show up after awhile. There is something in the story I think, that gives that, and I think it quotes another coach who said he quoted Oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect.

Mr. Liebeler. When you talked to Ruggieri, he didn't mention anything about that, did he?

Mr. Vinson. No; he didn't. He just brushed it aside very hurriedly. He didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the B-team and he had disappeared after a few days.

Mr. Liebeler. On page 72, of the article, Ruggieri is quoted as saying, "I83 told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish practice with a sprint, just like the others.

The answer refers to a statement that Oswald is reported to have made to Ruggieri that he, Oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he didn't want to.

Mr. Vinson. No; I didn't. I don't know if he was just being evasive and didn't want to answer me, or what. But like I say, I didn't press him for any direct information about Oswald, but I just casually asked if he knew him.

I called him and told him who I was and that Life Magazine asked me to try to locate some pictures for them of Oswald, and I asked him did he know of any existing that I might be able to make arrangements for Life to get ahold of, and I think he just volunteered that he didn't remember much about Oswald, and I didn't press it.

But apparently Jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to speak with Jackson than he was with me.

Mr. Vinson. The only time the Secret Service talked to me was last night when he called and asked me to come over here.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that we haven't covered that you think would be helpful to the Commission's work as far as your knowledge of Oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. The only thing that I can think of offhand, this has probably been brought to your attention, I don't know—I feel sure it has—of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on the cover of Life is a composite picture and is not really the actual thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it on. I didn't read this. This was in Newsweek. I didn't read it. I was told about it.

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the Commission.

Mr. Vinson. There was one other thing that I noticed also. Maybe I am wrong and I should possibly go back and reread this before I make any statements but I notice in the picture there is a scope on the rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of 1963, and it says in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of 1963, apparently shortly after he bought the rifle. I think it says he bought it in March.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope on it when he bought it?

Mr. Vinson. I think this just was something that came out in my discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation just—somebody just made the observation.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of Oswald by the Irving Sports Shop?

Mr. Vinson. No. The only one I know about was the place in Grand Prairie, unless I got my facts all crossed up. I was thinking the only scope I knew about was mounted, I thought was mounted at the range out in Grand Prairie. Is that correct? Was there one mounted there?

Mr. Vinson. Maybe I am confused. I guess I am confused about it, but I think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which I thought was in the fall of '63.

Mr. Liebeler. There may well be something to that effect, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

Mr. Liebeler. But you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to anybody84 that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope for Oswald?

Mr. Vinson. No. My connection with the whole thing has not amounted to anything. I came to Dallas the day of the assassination because my newspaper sent practically everybody over here. I was at the police station. I am not a photographer. However, I carry a camera, and I was sent to the Dallas Police Station to take pictures, because I was the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. And I stayed there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of generally ran errands. I didn't do any actual reporting, but that was when it first came to my attention.

Well, let me rephrase that. When I heard the name Lee Oswald, when the reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was Lee Oswald, immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately I remembered when I had heard it, and I associated it with my second grade class, and I even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over here that day.

Mr. Liebeler. Unless there is anything else that you can remember about your contacts with Oswald or your conversations with others about him that you think would be helpful, I have no other questions at this point, I would like to thank you for coming over from Fort Worth on such short notice.

TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CONWAY

The testimony of Hiram Conway was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. Jenner. Would you mind rising and being sworn. Do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission about which you have heard. The Warren Commission was authorized by a Senate joint resolution of the Congress of the United States to be created to investigate the circumstances leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Pursuant to that legislation President Lyndon B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130, November 1963, appointed the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. The Chief Justice of the United States, the Honorable Earl Warren is the Chairman of that Commission and the Commission has come to be known as the Warren Commission.

The Commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose name is Lee Harvey Oswald, during his lifetime. We understand you had some contact with a man by that name?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Mr. Conway, you are Hiram Conway and you are a native Texan, are you?

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. How long have you held that position as tool inspector for GD?

Mr. Conway. It was in 1945, August 25, when I went to work there—in 1945—August 23, 1945, and sometime in November, I believe the 16th, is when I went into tool inspection. That's approximate.

Mr. Conway. I can't recall—I don't recall that name Tom Bargas—I don't recall the name.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact with a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Conway. Yes; where I live at the present time, and he moved in two doors from me, 7408, I believe it was two houses.

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and dining room together.

Mr. Conway. No; there was no man about the house. John was the oldest one on the place.

Mr. Conway. Oh, it must have been—I'm not quite sure, but I moved there in 1948, and I'm not sure—I moved there in September or October.

Mr. Conway. And I'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of the year or not, but it was just shortly after I moved there.

Mr. Jenner. He was born October 18, 1939, so in 1948, at the time you are talking about, he would be approximately 9 years old.

Mr. Conway. Well, at that time, I'm almost ashamed—I don't know exactly when my daughter was born—1933, I believe, so that would be 15.

Mr. Jenner. So your daughter would have had little or no contact with Lee who was then 9 years old?

86 Mr. Conway. No; very little. She was associated quite a bit with John. She and John were approximately the same age. I believe John might have been slightly older than her, maybe 1½ or 2 years, I'm not quite sure.

Mr. Conway. I think almost 4 years—it was in the vicinity of 4 years. It might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was approximately 4 years.

Mr. Conway. Oh, yes; John was a real nice kid and he was a friend of mine, you know, a young friend. I taught him to play chess.

Mr. Conway. Yes; I did, and he made an excellent player, I understand. I think he's runner-up in the championship at Lackland Air Force Base.

Mr. Jenner. And because of your relationship especially with John Pic, you came to know the other boys, too?

Mr. Jenner. But having in mind Lee Oswald, at the age of 9, and by the time he left, he was 13, you had less contact with him?

Mr. Conway. I had very little contact with him, just to see him in the neighborhood was all.

Mr. Jenner. Did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a judgment as to his general disposition?

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe that and tell us something—some incidents about it?

Mr. Conway. Well, he was quick to anger and he was, I would say, a vile nature—he was mean when he was angry, just ornery—he was vicious almost, you might say, is the best word I can describe it.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with his two brothers, Robert and John?

Mr. Conway. Robert was much more spunky than John, but Robert didn't very often get into much trouble.

Mr. Conway. No; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for children to throw stones at, like Lee did. He was a bad kid.

Mr. Jenner. Did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in the neighborhood?

Mr. Conway. Yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually seeing him fight—the children didn't fight with him much, they got out of his way. They would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have caught one of them.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of 4 years or were they isolated incidences?

87 Mr. Conway. Naturally, it's hard to say, but I would see those things not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my mind. I didn't see him very often—I have seen him try to fight with his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that—I don't—it's been a long time.

Mr. Conway. That would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately because no more than I know about it, but I do know he would get home—I would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "Where is Lee," and they would say, "He's in the house," or something like that and that's about all I would know. But I would see him in and out. He had a dog that he was very fond of, Lee did, and I would see him play with the dog around the place and I would have reason for accurate knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being absolutely sure—I'm not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection now whether Mrs. Oswald, his mother, worked?

Mr. Conway. Yes, sir; she did work and I have heard my wife speak of where she worked, but I don't recall. She worked days and I usually worked nights—I usually worked nights.

Mr. Jenner. So you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this 4-year period as a rule?

Mr. Jenner. So that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and after school at least?

Mr. Conway. It's funny, but I'm not so—not absolutely sure what year I started working nights. I know I worked nights before I moved to Fort Worth and I moved to Fort Worth from Grand Prairie in 1948, and that was the—was before the Oswalds came, and I know I worked nights before they moved into that neighborhood and I took a preference to the second shift, so I did work the second shift at all times when it was possible since that time. It's more than likely that I was on the second shift almost all times they were there.

Mr. Conway. Yes; and I don't remember exactly what year it was but it must have been in 1951 or 1952.

Mr. Jenner. If they came in 1948, and they were there 4 years, that would be 1952.

Mr. Jenner. Now; had either of the older boys already left before the family moved?

Mr. Conway. John went into the Coast Guard at sometime and it seems to me that he joined the Coast Guard before they moved away, but I'm awful cloudy on that.

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't know—I remember talking to John—John, when he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and I remember talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the Coast Guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. I believe he left before his mother did. He left and went into the Coast Guard before his mother moved away.

Mr. Jenner. You—could you refresh your recollection that he did leave before the mother and Lee left?

88 Mr. Conway. Well, I didn't know. He married a girl in New York City and I believe—I believe my wife told me that Mrs. Oswald told her that she was going to New York on account of John being there. After John left, I didn't have much contact with them at all, because John was my contact with them.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether Robert was still with the family when Mrs. Oswald picked up and left? Or had he also entered the service?

Mr. Jenner. You would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this vicinity, whom you think might recall him.

Mr. Jenner. If he were alive, he would be approaching 25 years of age—this would be his 24th year and he would be 25 years old next October.

Mr. Conway. Well, I have discussed it with the Masseys, they live across the street.

Mr. Jenner. Give me their full name and address and telephone number, if you will?

Mr. Conway. And they don't remember it. It is H. R. Massey. What I was fixing to say, I was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by house. The Masseys don't remember—I don't believe Barbara Anne does, Barbara Anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, but I heard her say that she didn't remember him at all.

Mr. Jenner. Well, maybe I could find out from her mother, Mr. and Mrs. H. R. Massey.

Mr. Jenner. I probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if she is free, tomorrow afternoon.

Mr. Conway. Well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you mention it to her when you get home and I'll call out home sometime tonight?

Mr. Conway. The Turners, they just live—oh, Bill Bridges would be the age of John Pic. He was just another one of the kids in the neighborhood that I taught to play chess at the same time, but he was older and there was no other children in that range, and John is as old as my daughter.

Mr. Conway. I don't know where he lives. He is with Halliburton, I believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too.

Mr. Conway. No; that's Halliburton Oil Co. I don't know where the home office is.

Mr. Conway. The last time I saw him he came to my house and brought his family and it's been quite a little while ago.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can find him that way.

Mr. Jenner. The older boys were attending high school and Lee was attending elementary school, what elementary school is that?

Mr. Conway. It would be Arlington Heights. These schools are changing so rapidly and increasing so until I just don't know.

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time, did you become acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, the mother of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of Mrs. Oswald, particularly with respect to the—to her care of these boys and Lee Oswald during this 4-year period.

Mr. Conway. Well, I think she was—my impression was that she felt burdened with them and I think she showed a selfish attitude towards her children.

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't have words for it except that it appeared to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. She didn't care—they were embarrassed about their dress.

Mr. Conway. Some of them were—John, especially and sometimes Robert, I think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good kids about it, you know.

Mr. Conway. No, sir; John wouldn't ever say anything against his mother. My daughter told me that someone said something about—hearsay, you see, is about all I know about such things, but my daughter told me that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, "She's my mother." He stood up for her and that's all he would say.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from this remark that you just made that the boys, at least John, certainly John, did some work after school?

Mr. Conway. John sold shoes, I think, he worked in a shoe store for a time. It seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this distributive education thing and I believe that's how he got his job.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Lee on that score, was he industrious or not?

Mr. Conway. I don't rightly know, I have lost contact with them and he was too small.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to whether this was an emotional child?

Mr. Conway. Yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush and he would just storm at other children.

Mr. Conway. I suppose so—I thought he was a very strange type of person and at the time I thought he was considerably above the average in intelligence around that age—being 9 or 10 or 11, I mean, to catch on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things.

Mr. Jenner. You probably wondered why I asked you about Leslie Welding Co. Do you know a man by the name of Hiram L. Conway with Leslie Welding in Fort Worth?

Mr. Conway. No, I don't. I knew there was a Hiram—that—there's more than one Hiram Conway, about three or four in Fort Worth, I understand. I never heard of Leslie Welding.

Mr. Jenner. We have an FBI report on an interview with Hiram L. Conway and that's why I started out with you on that.

Mr. Jenner. From the time that the Oswalds left Fort Worth in 1952, from that time on, did you ever see Lee Oswald?

Mr. Conway. No, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just a few days before that. I wouldn't think it was over 5 or 6 weeks. She ran into her in a department store. No, I don't believe that I saw Mrs. Oswald at all, but I'm not sure. I've seen her so many times on television and she looks just like she always did except a little heavier and a little older, but I don't recall having seen her, but I remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Does anything occur to you that I haven't been stimulated to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the Commission in its work?

Mr. Conway. When you were talking on the phone, I was trying to think of anything, but I don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even to go with what you have.

When I said that Lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he had picked up chess from Bill Bridges and John—you see, I taught Bill and John to play chess and Robert picked it up from them and then Lee picked it up from them, and I think I remember hearing the boys say Lee would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would lose a game.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Conway, you have the privilege of reading your deposition after Miss Oliver has written it up and to sign it or to waive that privilege.

Mr. Conway. Well, I don't care anything about reading it—I know what I have said.

Mr. Jenner. If there is nothing else, this will conclude your deposition. I certainly appreciate your coming in.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN MURRET

The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?

Mr. Jenner. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition.

Mr. Jenner. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents.

Mr. Jenner. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive those?

Mr. Jenner. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret—and don't feel offended by this—but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?

Mr. Jenner. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs. Murret?

Mr. Jenner. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with you, that you will be able to help us.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.

Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?

Mrs. Murret. No. On my father's side were from France, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?

Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.

Mr. Jenner. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an explanation for that, do you think?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know which way it is.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not really too accurate as to years.

Mrs. Murret. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2 years, we'll say——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you present? What do you know about that marriage?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very long time.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that. I don't know what the initials stand for.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he is—some kind of clerical work, as far as I know. The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance.

Mr. Jenner. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite married Edward John Pic?

Mr. Jenner. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John Pic, does he?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't guess some of it is.

Mr. Jenner. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the Commission in this investigation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and somebody else—lawyers.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about Marguerite's first marriage.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she told94 me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that—but she said Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.

Mr. Jenner. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old. Let's see—well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married, you see.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.

Mr. Jenner. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22 years old; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic, previous to that.

Mr. Jenner. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City Park area; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't, but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park area. That was when I was referring to.

Mr. Jenner. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. I have forgotten which section that was.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that they95 rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant.

Mr. Jenner. This would have been when they were married approximately 3 years; would that be about right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. Your father died when?

Mr. Jenner. So when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34 years of age?

Mrs. Murret. I was married when my father died. I had three children when my father died. One child was a baby.

Mr. Jenner. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?

Mrs. Murret. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles, Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service. He worked for them approximately around 40 years.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, I think—when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school?

Mr. Jenner. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John who died when he was 18?

Mrs. Murret. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross," and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to someone, and I never did get it back.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany, you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is alive; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.

Mr. Jenner. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school, or did she?

Mrs. Murret. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We were just trying to keep the family together more or less.

You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.

Mr. Jenner. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I don't want you to think I am just being curious.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey Oswald. You understand?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.

98 Mr. Jenner. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her personality.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.

Mrs. Murret. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.

Mr. Jenner. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong.

Mrs. Murret. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls, and how you got along then.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like that. We did get along pretty well.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said. Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right. I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong, I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. She would just, you know, fly off.

Mr. Jenner. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature?

Mrs. Murret. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.

99 Mr. Jenner. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when I first got married, she stayed with me then.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband and your father and your sister Marguerite stayed together?

Mrs. Murret. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other words.

Mrs. Murret. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else.

Mrs. Murret. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me. She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite. She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. That's what I100 mean. In other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick decisions.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything like that before she was married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.

Mr. Jenner. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality?

Mr. Jenner. And you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over before I did them, but she wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City Park section, in Carrollton.

Mr. Jenner. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana. I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm.

I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean, with a sharp enunciation.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until he was 18 years old.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2 years old, she married Mr. Oswald.

101 Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward Pic embittered her?

Mrs. Murret. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home. We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did.

Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that, but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was cruel, because I don't believe in that.

Mr. Jenner. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child?

Mrs. Murret. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?

Mr. Jenner. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that?

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie see the child; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't think, not after he was a child.

Mr. Jenner. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was unusual insofar as personality is concerned?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself.

Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that.

Mr. Jenner. Of course I gather from what you have said—as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent, or $14 a month house rent—I forget which—and every day he would give us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $1, believe it or not.

My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to the102 store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.

Mrs. Murret. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out.

I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining. She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun.

We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today.

I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.

They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like that either.

Mr. Jenner. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2 years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to lie about anything.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?

Mrs. Murret. I would say, when you put it that way—I would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing.

Mr. Jenner. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be right all the time.

103 Mr. Jenner. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently, then you were just wrong.

Mrs. Murret. She was very independent, in other words. She was very independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would go ahead and give her help again.

Mr. Jenner. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?

Mr. Jenner. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise?

Mr. Jenner. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family?

Mr. Jenner. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.

Mr. Jenner. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.

Mrs. Murret. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was just married October 5.

Mrs. Murret. Before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so Marguerite was over at the house at that time.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it was104 a rainy day, and John and this girl friend—we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so I questioned John about it, and he laughed. He has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "Well, of all things," and he said, "We were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." He said, "She would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait I had, and then I would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." They were getting a big bang out of that, but Marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so I told her, I said, "Well, I believe John," and she said, "Do you believe everything they tell you?" and I said, "Yes; I believe what they tell me." Now, this was just last fall that was.

Mrs. Murret. No. Now, John was married in October, but I hadn't seen—this was quite a while previous to that—maybe 2 years.

Mrs. Murret. About the time Lee defected to Russia. Probably about that time, or after.

Mr. Jenner. He was mustered out in September of 1959, and he went to Russia right after that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I knew Lee Oswald. He was an insurance collector on my route.

Mrs. Murret. Weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. He collected policy payments for them. He was a very good insurance man, I think.

Mrs. Murret. No; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area.

Mr. Jenner. What is your recollection as to how Lee Oswald and Marguerite became acquainted?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I guess he just liked Marguerite enough to marry her, and I believe Oswald was a Catholic—I'm not too sure of that—and Marguerite was a Lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally.

Mrs. Murret. Because he was divorced; yes. He was not recognized in the Catholic church. He couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. He could go to mass.

Mrs. Murret. So they were married in a Lutheran Church, Lee Oswald and Marguerite. They were married at the Lutheran Church on Canal Street.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. You are Catholic.

Mrs. Murret. Well, not always. I wasn't always a Catholic. My father was Catholic, and my mother was a Lutheran, and we were baptized in the Lutheran religion.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and my father, who was Catholic, he always saw that we went to Sunday school.

Mr. Jenner. He would see to it that you went to the Lutheran Sunday school, to the Lutheran church?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. I always thought of my father as St. Joseph. I don't know why, but I guess it was because he was so close to us children. He would take us on Christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother had begun to rear her children as Lutherans, so he continued that?

Mrs. Murret. No. John Pic—rather, Eddie Pic was a Lutheran too. About the marriage to Lee Oswald, she seemed to be happy. He had everything she wanted. They lived on Taft Place in the City Park section, and then after that they built a home on Alvar Street. That was a new section then. Right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; two children, Robert, and then Lee was born after his father died.

Mr. Jenner. Well, his father died in August 1939, and Lee was born on October 18, 1939, about 2 months after; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Lee Oswald wanted to adopt John Edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name.

Mr. Jenner. When she married Lee Oswald, I assume her alimony terminated, did it?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what I started to tell you, about John Pic. That was after she married Oswald. There was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and John was in there—he was about 2 or a little over 2 at the time, and this young woman was in the store——

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you there a moment. When you say John, are you referring to John Pic?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was the Pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store—you see, Marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to John—he was just a baby, and she said, "You're a cute little boy. What's your name?" And he said, "My name is John Edward Pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "Whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "That's Mrs. Oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. I gather that she didn't know anything about the Pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was John Edward Pic, and she said, "By any chance, do you think he would be related to Eddie?" And she had married Eddie, and Eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that he was married or anything, and then this marriage106 was annulled—an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. My sister did tell me the story about that.

Mrs. Murret. I think so, as far as I know. I mean, I didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. I had a lot of children, and naturally I had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often.

Mr. Jenner. They had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on Alvar Street?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they were buying the home on Alvar Street, and during that time was when Mr. Oswald was cutting the grass, I think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over.

Of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that Lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and I think if they had done that, I think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was.

Then she lived in the house, I think, over 2 years while Lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. I think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. I don't remember where, and then she sold that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, hold that for a minute. We will get to that later on. When Mr. Oswald had his heart attack and died in August of 1939, did your sister return to work?

Mrs. Murret. No; I think Lee was around 3 years old when she returned to work. I never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, I imagine. I don't know about that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about 3 years?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so. Now, I can't recollect what happened with Lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. I know I took care of Lee when he was that age.

Mr. Jenner. Around that period when he was 3 years old, during that 3-year period, was that during the period you took care of him?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's when I took care of him. I offered to take care of Lee for her. It seemed like he was—I don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, I think, some lady and her husband—I couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. She had told me about that and so forth, but then I met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but I told her, I said, "Well, I'll keep Lee for a while, you know, as long as I could." I offered to keep Lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. Now, I wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. He might have been smarter than some 3-year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so I kept him and I would take him to town, and when I107 would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "Hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "What an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, I did the best I could with him. The children at home liked him. John Edward and Robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so—in other words, I had five children in 7 years, making them all around the same age, from 7 to 19 months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. I had to get my own five children ready for school, and I didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why I guess it was that Lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. He could slip out like nobody's business. You could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. We lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. The house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath.

Mr. Jenner. All right. He was 3 years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. She was a saleswoman. I think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town.

Mrs. Murret. Well, at that time John Edward and Robert were placed in a home across the river some place. I wouldn't know the name of the home. I visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. The children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the Bethlehem home. That's a Lutheran home.

Mrs. Murret. No; it's not exactly an orphanage. It's for children who have one parent.

Mr. Jenner. I think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at 2 o'clock.

Mr. Jenner. As I understand it now, Mrs. Murret, Marguerite maintained the house for approximately 2 or 3 years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, and she lodged Lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And that extended over a period of how long? How long did you have him?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I think it was pretty near the time that she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think she married him about that time.

Mrs. Murret. It might have been. Now, it might have been a little before she married Ekdahl. I really can't remember that. I really didn't know Mr. Ekdahl. I met him one time. Now, I am trying to orient myself.

108 Mr. Jenner. That's all right; take your time. Do you recall about when that was?

Mr. Jenner. And he stayed with you until about the time that Marguerite married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Around that time, or a little before. She might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married Ekdahl. I don't recall exactly how that was now.

Mr. Jenner. She married Ekdahl in 1948; so at that time Lee would have been 9 years old; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's right. Well, then I didn't have Lee that long; not from 3 years old. He wasn't with me all that time.

Mr. Jenner. How long do you think it was that you had Lee in your home on that occasion?

Mr. Jenner. Would that have been from 1942 to 1943, or 1944; somewhere in there?

Mr. Jenner. Well, that keys in with this information I have. When he was about 5 years old, did he join his brothers out at the Bethlehem orphanage?

Mr. Jenner. I thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers.

Mrs. Murret. Well, the incident could have been—I don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that I couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about 5 years old?

Mr. Jenner. And you do remember Lee being lodged at the Bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and they109 went to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think they would keep those boys there free.

Mr. Jenner. In some department store or something like that here in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have been one of these Jean's—what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald—that is, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald—before they were married?

Mrs. Murret. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she knew him at that time or not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, Edward John Pic, separated?

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce?

Mr. Jenner. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you will. What kind of man was he?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, one of their top salesmen.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as I could tell.

Mr. Jenner. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?

Mrs. Murret. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "Dutz,"110 so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him Charles.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Murret. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know.

Mrs. Murret. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one brother who was the godfather of Lee—little Lee Oswald, you know—and I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.

Mrs. Murret. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.

Mrs. Murret. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. I don't know why.

Mr. Jenner. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward?

Mrs. Murret. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired, was it?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I guess, to marry Ed.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage?

Mrs. Murret. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.

I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.

Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age.

During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation.

Mrs. Murret. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer.

Mrs. Murret. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.

Mrs. Murret. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.

The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex.

Mrs. Murret. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like—this is what she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister112 introduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."

Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr. Ekdahl——

Mrs. Murret. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the end of the Ekdahl affair.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at my house, I would say, between 1½ and 2 years, and then I couldn't keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or something.

Mrs. Murret. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take anything113 from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. She made her own life.

Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.

Mr. Jenner. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing O.K., you know.

Mr. Jenner. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He had a son.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were they not?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. She went up to see them, I think.

Mr. Jenner. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you get from what she said to you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she told me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I can114 say about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know the other side. I only know one side.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. She bought this house on Bartholomew.

Mr. Jenner. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about the 10th of September 1942.

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?

Mrs. Murret. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.

Mrs. Murret. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could be. It was a very old place.

Mr. Jenner. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married him, which squares more with your recollection.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having him at 8 years old.

Mr. Jenner. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in Texas was it that they moved to?

Mr. Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your recollection on that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I really don't know.

Mrs. Murret. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on a115 rental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round?

Mr. Jenner. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.

Mrs. Murret. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond.

Mr. Jenner. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with Mr. Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around Christmas time, and that's about all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was Fort Worth.

Mr. Jenner. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't know.

Mrs. Murret. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his salary was over $1,000 a month.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 better than $1,000.

Mr. Jenner. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all the time.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he went to St. Louis U.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went to Loyola.

Mrs. Murret. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.

Mr. Jenner. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis Cardinals farm teams; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business?

Mr. Jenner. That was your information, that she had her boys at Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband?

Mrs. Murret. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school.

Mr. Jenner. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in Covington, La.?

Mrs. Murret. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.

Mr. Jenner. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but that she had to support him; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.

Mr. Jenner. But it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, I believe she said.

Mr. Jenner. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?

Mr. Jenner. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at the time she married Ekdahl?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was a very low-priced residence.

Mrs. Murret. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out.

Mrs. Murret. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, $5, $10, or whatever it was.

Mrs. Murret. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, that was over the telephone, I think.

Mrs. Murret. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, I think.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and then he said, "Well, this is not for me."

119 Mrs. Murret. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had saved over $1,000 or $1,400—I don't know the amount—but after he got home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm leaving."

Mrs. Murret. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at the house. If he did, I didn't know it.

Mrs. Murret. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened.

Mr. Jenner. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called?

Mrs. Murret. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more about Lee.

Mr. Jenner. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?

Mr. Jenner. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much.

Mr. Jenner. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you?

Mrs. Murret. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support the family, or120 whatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must have been on the way back—I didn't even know she had went to New York, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a while.

Mr. Jenner. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.

Mr. Jenner. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as to when she went to New York?

Mr. Jenner. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of 1952?

Mrs. Murret. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I might remember.

Mr. Jenner. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Murret. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's the121 same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about.

Mr. Jenner. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed anything—John, but I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life?

Mrs. Murret. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.

Mrs. Murret. She knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think that was while they were living122 over in Fort Worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me—I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.

Mrs. Murret. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.

Mrs. Murret. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just rather stay in the house and read or something.

Mrs. Murret. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.

We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.

Mr. Jenner. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he?

Mrs. Murret. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him.

Mr. Jenner. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it to the 700 block.

123 Mrs. Murret. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard Junior High.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they left New York City, I think, either on the fifth or the seventh of January 1954. Now, we have an address here in New Orleans of 1464 St. Mary Street.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, that was before the Exchange Place. She rented that from this lady who was a friend of hers.

Mrs. Murret. I think that's right. I'm not sure about those different places, I mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was at several places up in there before she went to Exchange Place.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we appear from our records to have them living on St. Mary Street in New Orleans in May or June of 1954, until about February 1955.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't know anything about that. I know Myrtle Evans was managing that apartment where she lived.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know—whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.

Mr. Jenner. Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family home—Myrtle—and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants.

Mrs. Murret. Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, somewhere in there.

Mr. Jenner. And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know which, to be truthful with you.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been about 3 years older; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my home. It's a school124 on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at the school.

Mr. Jenner. Now, will you tell me about that? Just tell me what you are referring to now with relation to that school.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, or what he told her of what happened. He said they were calling him "Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he could. The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of that. He didn't say anything to me about that.

Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time.

Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, so he got in several scrapes like that.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and I observed the way he acted. He was a lonely boy most of the time, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression that Lee Harvey was doing well in school, or what was your feeling along that line?

Mrs. Murret. I think he was doing very poor work in school most of the time. Then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and when I mentioned that to Marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning of our misunderstanding. She didn't think her child could do anything wrong, and I could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, because I have had children of my own going to school and they always done real well in their grades. They actually seemed to like school, but I can't say that Lee ever showed that he liked school.

Mr. Jenner. When he came with his mother from New York, did he ever discuss anything with you relative to his trip to New York?

Mrs. Murret. No; he never said anything, but my sister told me about the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get him out.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, this boy was about 14 years of age at that time; is that right, after they returned from New York and stayed at your place?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and then the next I heard was when he came here, and he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work for Tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to building, delivering messages and things like that.

125 Mr. Jenner. Did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they were living in Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. Before he got the job with Tujague's, he liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a Friday afternoon to get his Friday dinner, because he knew I always cooked seafood on Friday, so he always came on Friday, and then he would come again on Saturday morning and I would give him money to rent a bike at City Park, and you know, he thought that was one of the greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in City Park. My children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes I would have to get my children back or something, and I would have to give him more money so that he could keep his bike another hour.

Now, when he was going to Beauregard, Joyce, one of my daughters who lives in Beaumont——

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; well, I don't think Joyce was married then. I can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store and we bought Lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, and when we gave them to him, he said, "Well, why are you all doing this for me?" And we said, "Well, Lee, for one thing, we love you, and another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the other children." So that was that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing this clothing for him?

Mrs. Murret. No; he never would discuss anything. He was very independent. Like one time I remember asking him a question about something, and he said, "I don't need anything from anybody," and that's when I told him, I said, "Now listen, Lee, don't you get so independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need somebody at one time or other," I said, "so don't you ever get that independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because you do need somebody, sometime you will."

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that a little of this independence might have rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your sister?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she was independent herself all right. She didn't think she needed anybody either, so I guess he sort of got that from her, but I know that there are times when we always need somebody, and if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do sometimes. I would hate to feel that I never needed anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for anything you did for him. Now, I will say this, at the time he was receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in words at least anyway. We were probably the only people that he knew as relatives. I don't think he knew anyone else in the family.

Mrs. Murret. In the Oswald family or any other family. I mean, we were the only ones he knew, and I got to know him pretty well since I took care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she gave birth to Lee, but along with him I had these five children of my own to take care of, and I had a colored girl working for me. When John was born, I had a child that was just a few months older than John Edward, but I gave her my girl for weeks, and I was struggling along with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. I tried to do all I could to help her.

Mrs. Murret. I don't say that I would. I may. I may have expressed it before, but I thought he had a very childish handwriting.

126 Mrs. Murret. Only at the time when he was going to Beauregard School, with his homework.

Mr. Jenner. Without noting that you have Commission Exhibit No. 540 before you, do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Murret. I couldn't say I recognized it. It looks a little like, something like his writing, I mean, the way he would write, but I couldn't say for sure—I couldn't swear that that was his writing.

Mrs. Murret. Well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than I knew him to write, I might say. I never thought he wrote very well for his age, and he was 14 then, you know. Of course, a lot of boys don't write good. Girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. You ought to see my son's writing. He graduated from law school, and he don't write good either. Now, I think he was left handed.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have caused me complications, Mrs. Murret. Commission Exhibit 540 has a series of pages which are numbered at the bottom, 148 through 157, both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic copies of a diary or the memoirs of Lee Harvey Oswald, written in his hand, and found by Irving, Tex., police and the city of Dallas police, or at least certainly by the city of Dallas police; in his room.

Mrs. Murret. Well, here's one that says that he was—you see, when he stopped in that Saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, but he said he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field——

Mrs. Murret. Yes. But someone else said that they thought that when he came to my house on that Saturday, when he stopped there, that he was coming from Atlanta, Ga., that day, but anyway, we took Lee to lunch that day and then dropped him off, if I remember right, by the customhouse up here by the river, and that's all I remember about that, and I never saw him any more after that until he turned up in Russia.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir. I told him, I said, "Lee, if you are going to be stationed over there, you can come over weekends."

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he never did write. I asked him to write, but he didn't write, and I never heard any more from him. I didn't even know that he was back from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. And you didn't know that he had gone to Russia either; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right; I didn't know he had gone over there at all. I didn't know he went until after he went.

Mr. Jenner. How did you learn he was in Russia? Did his mother tell you that he was in Russia?

Mrs. Murret. That he had defected, yes. That was about the time she had this accident, I remember, and then he got out of the Marines.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was before he went to Russia. He got out of the Marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he didn't give her any of it, I don't think, but $10. I think he gave her $10, she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to New Orleans, so she thought, so I didn't hear from her any more until she learned by him from letter that he was in Russia.

127 Mr. Jenner. Was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in the New Orleans papers?

Mrs. Murret. Well, not here so much, but in Fort Worth and so forth, over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it.

Mrs. Murret. I don't think they had anything here about that at all, but they did have it a lot in the Fort Worth paper.

Mrs. Murret. She told me all about it, what she knew about it. She didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in?

Mr. Jenner. Did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it's hard to judge that. When you only have one person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, but who knows what's in a person's mind. I think your mind is what really belongs to you, and I don't think anyone knows what's running through your mind. I really believe that, so I couldn't tell you how she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the things he did. I can only tell you what I think, but that doesn't mean that I know, because I really don't. You just can't tell what's running through a person's mind. You may think you know their mind, but you don't, I don't think. I think he went over there because he wasn't satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how it was over there, I guess; I don't know.

Mrs. Murret. No. Oh, I spoke about it, and he might say something once in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for Tujague's?

Mrs. Murret. No. I didn't know anything other than he was working there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them.

Mrs. Murret. I don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; no, sir. He came out of this junior high, and like I said, I didn't even know he went to Easton. I remember one morning he came over to the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so I said, "Well, Lee, we can fix you up," and I gave him a glove, but I don't think we had shoes to fit him. Joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from Beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and I told Lee, I said, "Lee, when you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it for you, we will get it." So then he got on the team, I think, but he got off as quick as he got on. I don't know why. He never discussed that with us as to why that was, and we never found out.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think he got on the team though. He never did actually play on it, I don't think. For one thing, I don't think he was the type of boy who was too good an athlete.

Like a lot of boys, I guess they wanted him to be one of those that sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, I guess he just left. I don't know that though.

Mrs. Murret. I think that's what might have happened to him. I don't know though.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think so. Like I said, at school his only remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. He said he wasn't learning anything, and it was just a waste of time.

I told him, I said, "Lee, that's not the idea. It's not a waste of time. You have got to go through school in order to graduate, because you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." I told him, "You are going to have to go on to college and make something out of yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." I think that's one of the things that Marguerite got a little put out with me about. She always wanted to let Lee have his way about everything.

Even after he came back from Russia, I talked to him about that, but he answered me the same way. He said he didn't see any use in going to school, that he knew all the subjects.

Mrs. Murret. They loved Lee, I think. He was in my home, and he acted like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. I didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the same things. Actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, because he wouldn't go out and play at all. They really loved him a lot, though. They have always loved him.

Mrs. Murret. That's right. That's when he joined the Marines. I don't know what that date is, but I know he joined the Marines after they left.

Mr. Jenner. Your sister didn't tell you and Lee didn't tell you that they were about to move to Texas?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think that's about the time that Robert came in, because the next thing she said was that Robert didn't want to stay here. He didn't want to make his home here, he said. He said New Orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in Texas, so I don't know if Robert left first, or if they all left together. In fact, I didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day—she had a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the way she was going, and all she said was, "We're leaving; come get your machine." We never did get the machine. When we went up there, the place was locked up, and we never did get it back.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come and get it. She said she would leave it there in the house or something like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. Like I said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get the machine back. She had some furniture that belonged to her there, I think, so I don't know whether she took anything with her besides her clothing or not; but she left.

129 Mr. Jenner. So then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after Robert got out of the service?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and came to New Orleans. She thought he might live here and work and help support the family.

Mrs. Murret. That's right. He said all his friends were in Texas, and he wanted to move over there.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that's what he said. He said Texas was his home, not New Orleans.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and shortly after that—I forget when—but Robert married, and I didn't even know he was married.

Mrs. Murret. I don't know too much about Robert. After they moved away, I didn't know too much about Robert, and I didn't know John too well either. There's one thing. Robert and John, they never recognized one another as brothers.

Mrs. Murret. They were stepbrothers, but having lived together from real small children, you would think that they would love one another as brothers, you know. You would think being small children, they would accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being halfbrothers or stepbrothers.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this, Mrs. Murret: do you think that the fact that your sister Marguerite insisted on John Edward Pic retaining his Pic name despite the fact that her husband Oswald wanted to adopt him, contributed to that feeling between the two boys?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I don't think, because John was 2 years old when she married Oswald, and then Robert was born a few years after that, so I don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, that Oswald wanted to adopt John, and she said, "No; John has a father, and his name is Pic, and let's leave it at Pic and let the father contribute to him."

Mr. Jenner. Well, perhaps I didn't frame my question right. You were under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in the name Pic as against Oswald, weren't you?

Mr. Jenner. And you do recall that each regarded the other as his brother; isn't that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I think Lee loved Robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't too fond of John. In a different way maybe he didn't love John as much as he did Robert. That's just what I think.

Mrs. Murret. I don't know. I was never in their presence too much at that age. I kept them when Mrs. Oswald gave birth to Lee, but they were little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. I had them for about a week, and I remember sitting outside and they were saying that it had better not be a girl. "Because we don't want any girls in this family."

Mrs. Murret. That's right, that's what he said when he came through on a Saturday, but then I never heard any more from Lee at all.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have already touched on some information regarding130 when he went to Russia. Marguerite communicated with you about the fact that he was in Russia; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, like I said, my son-in-law contacted her because we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the telephone book over there and found her number.

Mrs. Murret. Emile O'Brien. He called her and he told us that she said that she had this accident, like I told you before, so I called her, I think, or her brother—I can't remember which. Anyway, we sent her a box of clothes at Christmas time, anything that we could think of, and then I sent her money at different times during the week, as much as I could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this hardship discharge for Lee so he could leave the Marines and come home.

It was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he only stayed there for 2 days at her house, or 1 day, or whatever it was, and he said, "Well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to New Orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that she had called me, but I never saw Lee or anything.

Mrs. Murret. No; I never saw Lee or never heard any more from him until the next thing I knew was when she told me she received this letter, I think, from Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during all this time that he was in the Marines, he didn't write you, did he?

Mr. Jenner. And when he was here on that Saturday, he told you he was going to be stationed at Keesler Field.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what his experiences had been in the Marines?

Mrs. Murret. He didn't say anything. It was a rush affair. He came up and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "What do you think, the people on the bus thought I was a cadet, and here I am a big Marine." We took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the Custom House, like I said, and that was the end of that. But, maybe you might like to know this: before Lee went into the Marines, while he was in New Orleans and they were going to live on Exchange Alley, I think he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. I don't know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother would sign. Now, he met her in town, I think, and he was all excited and he wanted to join the Marines or whatever it was he was going to join. I can't remember if it was the Marines, and he said, "If you will sign for me, I can go." And she said, "No; I am not going to sign for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office with him, and I think it was in Mr. Sere's office—he has expired since then—and Mr. Sere told her, "Well, since you can't do anything with him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him go." So the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then the next step was that when he got over to the place—I don't know whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his suitcase—but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that.

Mr. Jenner. You mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? They wouldn't admit him on the affidavit?

131 Mrs. Murret. That's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he said very little about it. And then he met someone in this branch of the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there and converse with him about different things in the service and so forth. I don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything like that, though.

Mr. Jenner. Was Lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? He didn't seem to have worked much after school.

Mrs. Murret. Well, of course, he was a young kid. I don't know what he did at home. I know I never did have anything for him to do at my house.

Mrs. Murret. My boys—let's see. They always went to school, and during vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that.

Mrs. Murret. One of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $900 worth of bonds, because I figured that I didn't need his money to feed him, and by buying a bond every 2 weeks, he would have enough to go to school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass out public service bills. One of my boys had three jobs at one time. He used to go to Loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given a fellowship to work in Father Victor's office. He was a priest, and he helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last year, but he always worked his way, and Marilyn had went to school and she had worked her way through school too, and Joyce, we helped pay her way through, but she had to leave school for 1 year and go to work in order to get back again to school, but now Lee just didn't think he had to go to school. He said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. I think his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know.

Mrs. Murret. Well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he liked to do.

Mrs. Murret. Lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things Lee liked to do. Lee said that. Most of the boys had money, you know, and went out on the weekends with girls and so forth, but Lee couldn't afford those things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not even then. They don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's what he liked.

Mrs. Murret. Well, he said that that was the reason why, because I asked him, "Why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so forth, and he said, "Well, they don't like the same things I like." But I do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and I think he made friends with some boy at Beauregard School when he was in the Sea Scouts for a while. He had a uniform and everything. He didn't stay in there too long, I don't think.

Mr. Jenner. What kind of apartment was that that your sister Marguerite had on Exchange Alley?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. A lot of people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she had a real nice apartment. I know we read in the papers about, you know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how nice an apartment that was up there that they had. A lot of people like to live in the French Quarter just because it's the Vieux Carre, and because of that reason rents are pretty high.

Anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. She had her own bedroom, and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. It was a very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. Lee had the bedroom, and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the apartment really convenient, being right off of Canal Street and everything. If she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live that close to Canal Street, so she actually saved money that way, she told me.

Of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but I don't think that Lee ever went into those places, because he never was a boy that got into any trouble. For one thing, he never did go out. We all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in and read or something. The average teenager who was going to school at Beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and things like that, but he didn't do that. His morals were very good. His character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. There was one thing he did: he walked very straight. He always did, and some people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or something like that, but of course you can't please everybody.

Mrs. Murret. One time I heard—it was a postcard, and I think it was the last Christmas that he spent in Russia, and he wrote this postcard, and all he had on it was, "Merry Christmas," and he said on it, "Write to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. Now, I wanted to keep this card, but I had the children at the house at the time, and I laid the card on the side, and I didn't copy the address when I did write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime Gene——

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took that card with him, and after I had written the card to Lee, the children tore it up, so I didn't have the address any more.

When I wrote to Lee—I didn't want to write anything in a letter, you know, so I just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up and I lost the address, so I couldn't write to him at that point.

Mr. Jenner. So there wasn't any communication between you or any member of your family and Lee while he was in Russia, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. We just got that one card from Lee, and I never answered it because the card was destroyed before I could mail it.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear about Lee? I mean now, before you saw him, when next did you hear about him?

Mrs. Murret. Well, I just heard that he was over in Russia, that he had defected to that country, but they came to New Orleans after that, and then they went back to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. What statements were made, if any? I mean, what was your impression?

Mrs. Murret. Well, she seemed kind of upset about it. I mean, she tried to get him to get back to the States, but she said he didn't talk to her over the telephone.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir. The paper office over there in Fort Worth was the one who contacted Lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. He hung up. I believe Robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but that's all I know about it. So then we didn't hear any more from her after she left here. She said she was going to get lost.

Mrs. Murret. I don't know why, so then I didn't hear from her any more until one day the telephone rang and I answered the phone, and Lee said, "Hello, Aunt Lillian," and I didn't recognize his voice, and not thinking about Lee, you know, and I have other nephews, and I said, "Who is this?" and he said, "This is Lee," and I said, "Lee?" and he said, "Yes."

I said, "When did you get out? When did you get back? What are you doing?" He said, "I have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," and I said, "Well, I'm glad you got back," and he said, "I'm married, and I got a baby." I think he said she was 14 months old, so anyway, he said, "Would you put me up for a while?" And he said, "I am down here trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" And I said, "Well, we will be glad to, Lee," but then I started thinking, because if he had a wife and child, I would have to make other arrangements maybe, and so I asked him, I said, "Lee, are you alone?" and he said, "Yes," and I said, "Well, come right on out."

Mrs. Murret. It was way after Easter, I know. It was possibly the week after Easter.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, he took the streetcar and bus, I suppose, to be coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly dressed.

Mrs. Murret. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at your house.

134 Mrs. Murret. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only carrying just a little handbag, they call it.

Mrs. Murret. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put their clothes in, something like that.

Mrs. Murret. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things over at the bus station.

Mrs. Murret. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until he found an apartment.

Mr. Jenner. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other packages; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the garage.

Mrs. Murret. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and that there could have been more than two?

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus station though.

Mr. Jenner. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes that a person would pack things in?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan wrapping paper?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of my business.

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear in cold weather.

Mr. Jenner. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer and sickle or anything like that?

Mrs. Murret. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.

Mrs. Murret. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.

Mrs. Murret. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking—we were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." He said, "You are the only one I know."

Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday.136 Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job—I don't know where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone to letter.

Mrs. Murret. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this job.

First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know how to do that."

So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her—he had a map; he always carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always take this map and mark the route out himself.

So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever went back to see her.

So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it."

I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart?

Mrs. Murret. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We didn't even know when he left this job.

Mr. Jenner. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night?

Mrs. Murret. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early137 in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his life in Russia, and how he felt about it?

Mrs. Murret. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there.

Mrs. Murret. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. We didn't talk about it too much.

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.

Mrs. Murret. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all he would say.

Mrs. Murret. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.

Mrs. Murret. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places—I forget which—but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.

Mr. Jenner. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this photographer?

Mrs. Murret. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick.

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house——"

Mrs. Murret. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, "Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment.

She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?

Mrs. Murret. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it?

Mr. Jenner. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.

Mrs. Murret. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage?

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see—not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car.

Mrs. Murret. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.

140 Mr. Jenner. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband?

Mrs. Murret. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.

Mr. Jenner. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square?

Mr. Jenner. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches long, or something like that.

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.

Mr. Jenner. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.

141 Mrs. Murret. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off.

Mr. Jenner. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in there?

Mr. Jenner. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.

Mrs. Murret. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her car.

Mr. Jenner. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did you see Mrs. Paine any more?

Mrs. Murret. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it must be 50 blocks.

Mrs. Murret. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn't142 even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee decided that they would go out.

I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.

Mrs. Murret. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks from where I live.

Mrs. Murret. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.

Mr. Jenner. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though?

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I never knew him to drive.

Mr. Jenner. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, and they went crabbing; is that right?

Mrs. Murret. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, "Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the baby, and she came143 around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove them home, and that was it.

When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mrs. Murret. He called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.

Mrs. Murret. During that time he was getting State employment from Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.

Mrs. Murret. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck.

Mrs. Murret. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found any other job after that here.

Mrs. Murret. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and144 the funny thing was that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went home with the spread after all.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but I wouldn't remember that now.

Mrs. Murret. No. My husband was never around when all this was going on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.

Mrs. Murret. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in between that time.

Mrs. Murret. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that.

Mrs. Murret. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then—in August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which I thought was very nice.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous—like, you know—and I thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday—that following Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat145 at Manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, "Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and everything."

This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But you can't carry signs like that in the business district."

The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."

Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.

Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He went right out146 to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe it was.

Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls.

I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and John brought them home.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.

I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right then—somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise?

Mrs. Murret. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the FBI.

Mrs. Murret. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few days after Labor Day, I think.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," and then they told me who they were.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me147 that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to Texas."

Mrs. Murret. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over something—in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane professor.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I understand it.

Mrs. Murret. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew the professor and all that.

Mrs. Murret. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.

Mrs. Murret. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from Lee Oswald and Marina.

Mrs. Murret. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was with us, and also her two children.

Mrs. Murret. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina over,148 and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't think.

Mrs. Murret. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.

Mr. Jenner. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission?

Mrs. Murret. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year—I mean, we go up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. We are allowed to do that.

Mr. Jenner. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they mind if you call him?

Mrs. Murret. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays or something we can do it.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just what happened?

Mrs. Murret. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet.

Mrs. Murret. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to Marina.

Mrs. Murret. Always. Now, what he did at home—how he acted around her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car door for her, and so forth—very attentive. He would pull the chair out for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say that for him.

Mrs. Murret. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and come149 home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang out of doing things like that.

Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle?

Mr. Jenner. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?

Mrs. Murret. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat.

Mrs. Murret. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that your understanding?

Mrs. Murret. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."

Previous to that time, I had said to Lee—I knew that Lee was going to talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I give talks all the time."

Mrs. Murret. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, "I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would become a Catholic."

Mr. Jenner. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the baby to be baptized.

Mrs. Murret. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's something he probably resented—not the baptism itself but the church.

Mr. Jenner. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the baby been baptized before that?

Mr. Jenner. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?

Mrs. Murret. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he really meant that the way it sounded.

Mrs. Murret. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that.

Mrs. Murret. Well, it sort of set back a little bit—a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard School indicating—either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Well, it came about—they only had one house in the 700 block, from Canal Boulevard——

Mr. Jenner. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that Lee gave your home address as his address?

Mrs. Murret. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.

Mr. Jenner. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which was your address?

151 Mrs. Murret. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his conduct generally, as you recall it?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He never really did talk unless you said something to him.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. You run across that every day.

Mr. Jenner. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the Civil Air Patrol?

Mrs. Murret. I don't know anything about that other than my sister Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange—whatever that is, at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way—he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on.

Mr. Jenner. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know how to drive.

Mr. Jenner. I believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?

Mrs. Murret. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.

Mrs. Murret. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow older152 to their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, I don't think.

Mr. Jenner. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?

Mr. Jenner. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?

Mr. Jenner. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and the Cuban boy?

Mrs. Murret. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so—we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it.

Mrs. Jenner. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination?

Mrs. Murret. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life.

Mr. Jenner. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?

Mrs. Murret. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back.

Mr. Jenner. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he say anything either way as to that?

Mr. Jenner. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, and her153 husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, Beaumont, Tex., is that right?

Mr. Jenner. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?

Mrs. Murret. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get married.

Mrs. Murret. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles didn't see Lee at all.

Mr. Jenner. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce—they did, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and Marina—arrived from Irving, Tex.?

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?

Mrs. Murret. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.

Mrs. Murret. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My boys don't smoke.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house around here?

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian literature that you know of?

Mrs. Murret. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but that's about all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack Ruby, or Rubenstein?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. Murret. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether it was or not is something else, I guess.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald during his lifetime?

Mrs. Murret. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.

Mr. Jenner. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?

Mrs. Murret. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.

Mr. Jenner. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?

TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET

The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress number 137.

I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be 3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify?

Mr. Liebeler. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record?

Miss Murret. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years in St. Louis.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background?

Miss Murret. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh High School.

Miss Murret. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University——

Mr. Liebeler. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned?

Miss Murret. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational courses—instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.

Miss Murret. September through December, but he didn't pay us—he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and he still owes me for December.

Mr. Liebeler. This is the person who is running the Junior University of New Orleans?

Miss Murret. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. He had two, one on this side, and——

Miss Murret. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating.

Mr. Liebeler. If I understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at Fortier?

Miss Murret. Well, steamship clerk—I don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or how they operate, actually.

Miss Murret. I don't know if it is just—the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how that works.

Mr. Liebeler. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she not——

Mr. Liebeler. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have other brothers and sisters?

Miss Murret. They are all—most of them are dead. Her brothers all died when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was very young, and I don't remember him at all.

Mr. Liebeler. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. So altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys?

157 Mr. Liebeler. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?

Miss Murret. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead.

Mr. Liebeler. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does she have?

Miss Murret. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he lives.

Miss Murret. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.

Miss Murret. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then Jackie.

Miss Murret. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives—I don't know, either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same State, and one in the other.

Mr. Liebeler. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what?

Miss Murret. No; they died when they were very young—1918 and 1919, during World War I.

Mr. Liebeler. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has three sons?

Mr. Liebeler. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite Oswald over the years?

Miss Murret. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved back to New Orleans was when she lived on—she would stay 1 or 2 days or so——

Miss Murret. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.

Mr. Liebeler. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss Murret. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss Murret. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him occasionally.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss Murret. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I don't think he was over very much.

Miss Murret. I don't know—at that time I guess he would be getting out of high school—well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about 16, so he might have been around—I don't really know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss Murret. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?

Miss Murret. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.

Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee—" and when he turned around, they hit him. It was just actually that—even though he was in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, interested in that sort of thing?

Miss Murret. I don't think he told me that—my mother must have told me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, actually, I mean, that160 she didn't think it was his fault, because she remembered those particular incidents.

Mr. Liebeler. And you and your mother have had discussions about this after the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his former——

Miss Murret. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in common with the other students—I don't remember this. This was a long time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, and that they made fun of him.

Mr. Liebeler. And this discussion came up when these former students from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that opinion?

Miss Murret. And from what I know—it is a long time ago—but he was very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and, of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind—I don't know—but he had a certain manner about him that other children never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say that any trouble started with him—I don't know. I mean from what I know, he never was.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and being well mannered?

Miss Murret. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some people that would irritate them—that would irritate many people, I suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was very—he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him, everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very cute.

But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about him and the others, other than he was not—well, other than, as I was saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of those students, I should say.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed from his associates or fellow students at that time?

Miss Murret. No; at that time I don't think because—well, I think he wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money—it could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't—I guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned this television program in which these former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what station that program was on?

161 Miss Murret. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know——

Miss Murret. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.

Miss Murret. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very interested.

Mr. Liebeler. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program run by a particular reporter or commentator?

Mr. Liebeler. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?

Miss Murret. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed information.

Miss Murret. The first time my father talked, and they get you off guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave, which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all the comments by the neighbors.

Miss Murret. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed there a few days when he came in.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about 11 or 12 years old at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very pretty child, and that he was adorable——

Miss Murret. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just—well, he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling child.

Miss Murret. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if he didn't get his way would start screaming—never any of that. He was just a very pleasant child.

Mr. Liebeler. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with you at that time? Do you know?

Miss Murret. I don't know—she worked for several department stores, and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was Jean's Hosiery Shop.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after that? Do you know?

Miss Murret. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?

Miss Murret. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to figure out whether he was.

Mr. Liebeler. But up until the time that Lee left you and went back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright young boy? Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr. Ekdahl; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with Mr. Ekdahl?

Miss Murret. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to military school.

Miss Murret. It might have been before—I don't know whether she got married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two boys—he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in uniform.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this relationship?

Miss Murret. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, "Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was quite hesitant about it, actually.

Mr. Liebeler. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father, she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?

Miss Murret. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said, that163 he did not want any children, and father and she found that very difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if she got pregnant.

So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't—he said that he would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. And he definitely did not want any children.

So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him—it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving—I just don't know. Anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to him or——

Mr. Liebeler. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to have any children?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or afterwards?

Miss Murret. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange Alley?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again?

Miss Murret. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.

Miss Murret. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like that, and probably—I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, but my aunt had no alternative—I mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of—I am saying if he did this—of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.

Mr. Liebeler. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, before she went to Texas?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?

Miss Murret. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how they—I mean they will slit one another's throats.

Miss Murret. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing—she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.

Mr. Liebeler. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, isn't that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to New Orleans?

Miss Murret. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby.

So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there during that period?

Miss Murret. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really had was on religion.

Miss Murret. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know——

Miss Murret. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.

Mr. Liebeler. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it?

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with you over your——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had?

Miss Murret. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came—I believe it was. After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.

Miss Murret. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.

Miss Murret. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother would know.

Miss Murret. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. And then he went to visit the grave.

166 Miss Murret. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.

Mr. Liebeler. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on Magazine Street?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt?

Miss Murret. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. I know he was looking—I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.

Miss Murret. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my mother.

Mr. Liebeler. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Miss Murret. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he said about the family, that people were very family conscious——

Miss Murret. Yes; I don't know—I think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.

Miss Murret. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife told me at that time——

Miss Murret. He didn't tell me—his wife told me. So I didn't bring the subject167 up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.

Miss Murret. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was in Stars and Stripes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia other than what you have already told us?

Miss Murret. The only thing he said was—I just didn't know any of this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the Soviet Union?

Miss Murret. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?

Miss Murret. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place.

Miss Murret. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was—was he a Russian officer? Anyway——

Miss Murret. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in the Army. And I think that she had an uncle—I don't know—but I think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the Intelligence Service in Russia.

Miss Murret. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. So, that I couldn't figure out.

Miss Murret. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd had168 a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him.

Miss Murret. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, naturally.

Miss Murret. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try to antagonize him—I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by the two authorities?

Miss Murret. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that he—I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had given him the money? Did he tell you that?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you?

Miss Murret. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with Lee about it before the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties?

Miss Murret. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the United States?

Miss Murret. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle—I don't know what he was at the time—but I thought he was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't really think too much that—well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

169 Mr. Liebeler. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?

Mr. Liebeler. And you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?

Miss Murret. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for—I don't know—probably a year."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Miss Murret. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know——

Mr. Liebeler. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state?

Mr. Liebeler. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?

Miss Murret. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. But he liked it.

Miss Murret. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced herself—I don't remember—because I was getting ready to go out and that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was very nice to meet her.

Mr. Liebeler. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved out, or after he moved out?

Miss Murret. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came to170 my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost—so they could find the directions, or something. I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?

Miss Murret. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was petrified——

Miss Murret. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.

Mr. Liebeler. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Liebeler. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; is that correct?

Miss Murret. I think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the English language?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in English?

Miss Murret. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times—on the food, but other than that, she——

Miss Murret. Mrs. Paine? I don't know—my mother had said that Lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.

Miss Murret. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. Paine's.

Miss Murret. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.

Miss Murret. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some other language. He just teaches, you know——

Miss Murret. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.

Miss Murret. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine in any way?

Miss Murret. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking people, and she spoke Russian herself.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed this with you about the professor?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?

Miss Murret. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think that that would be too difficult to find.

Mr. Liebeler. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?

Miss Murret. I just drove him over there once or—I think we drove him home once or twice.

Miss Murret. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home.

Miss Murret. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day—I don't know—and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July until September.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in September?

Mr. Liebeler. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What did you do?

Miss Murret. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or 4 they came over in the bus.

Mr. Liebeler. Because you have indicated that you were not in New Orleans during July or August of 1963?

Miss Murret. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, "Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note?

Miss Murret. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half.

Miss Murret. I said a little bit, but nothing—I mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word.

Mr. Liebeler. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or——

Miss Murret. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted to——

Mr. Liebeler. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on this expedition?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got along with each other?

Miss Murret. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her—I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably173 I—and he seemed to—I don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.

Mr. Liebeler. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?

Mr. Liebeler. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?

Mr. Liebeler. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?

Miss Murret. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't—I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or——

Miss Murret. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.

Mr. Liebeler. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?

Miss Murret. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.

Miss Murret. On Magazine—I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?

Miss Murret. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.

Miss Murret. No; but I can't remember whether it was—if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.

Miss Murret. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.

Mr. Liebeler. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?

Mr. Liebeler. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?

Miss Murret. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly—I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?

Mr. Liebeler. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?

Mr. Liebeler. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?

Miss Murret. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her—but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on—came to see her at the hospital—and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.

So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get175 him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.

Miss Murret. Of course, he didn't know—that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?

Miss Murret. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.

Miss Murret. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic—I think it was in the park.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?

Miss Murret. I guess he did—I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?

Miss Murret. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.

Mr. Liebeler. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?

Miss Murret. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?

Mr. Liebeler. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?

Miss Murret. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore,176 which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom—I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?

Miss Murret. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same—they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?

Miss Murret. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?

Mr. Liebeler. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?

Mr. Liebeler. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?

Miss Murret. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively—I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would—I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.

Mr. Liebeler. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?

Miss Murret. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.

Miss Murret. Perfectly content—I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.

Miss Murret. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?

Miss Murret. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very—he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers—if he didn't care to give them.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?

Miss Murret. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.

Miss Murret. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.

Miss Murret. Well, because of his manner—I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk—he was very erect—he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college178 graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don't know if that—that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.

Miss Murret. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?

Miss Murret. I don't know anything about that unless—anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.

Mr. Liebeler. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?

Miss Murret. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be—I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was—well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?

Miss Murret. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid—well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything——

Mr. Liebeler. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?

Mr. Liebeler. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?

Miss Murret. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; however——

Miss Murret. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me—well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact179 that they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys—that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.

Mr. Liebeler. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?

Miss Murret. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know——

Mr. Liebeler. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?

Miss Murret. Well, because everybody yells—it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?

Miss Murret. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway—they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.

Mr. Liebeler. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?

Miss Murret. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't—there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I—it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.

180 Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?

Miss Murret. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?

Mr. Liebeler. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET

The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. Did she receive those?

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, 1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard.

Mr. Murret. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me.

181 Mr. Murret. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a career of it, or anything.

Mr. Jenner. He finished law school before he entered this institute in Mobile, is that right?

Mr. Murret. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.

Mr. Jenner. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb Co., is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that?

Mr. Jenner. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed?

182 Mr. Jenner. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?

Mr. Murret. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.

Mr. Murret. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business.

Mr. Jenner. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage?

Mr. Jenner. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right?

Mr. Murret. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see them pretty often.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?

Mr. Murret. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was right after he died.

Mr. Jenner. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? Did she go to work, or what?

Mr. Murret. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited anything183 from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of my business, so I didn't ask about that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, after Mr. Oswald died?

Mr. Murret. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.

Mr. Jenner. There has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?

Mr. Murret. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

Mr. Murret. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that.

Mr. Murret. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent.

Mr. Murret. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they left.

Mr. Jenner. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of 1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New Orleans? Do you remember that?

Mr. Murret. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, or do you know?

Mr. Murret. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.

Mr. Jenner. What do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned?

Mr. Murret. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.

Mr. Jenner. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New Orleans, didn't they?

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans on that occasion?

Mr. Murret. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that they were in New York; I remember that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?

Mr. Murret. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.

Mr. Murret. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost contact with them.

Mr. Jenner. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at Exchange Alley, didn't they?

Mr. Murret. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that—that they had moved back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.

Mr. Murret. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't remember what month, but it was about that.

Mr. Murret. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something.

Mr. Murret. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, "Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, I don't think.

Mr. Jenner. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house?

Mr. Murret. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day.

Mr. Murret. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a couple of days afterward.

Mr. Jenner. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station?

Mr. Jenner. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time?

Mr. Murret. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use—that sort of thing?

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage?

Mr. Jenner. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained?

Mr. Murret. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years?

Mr. Murret. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.

Mr. Murret. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the number is concerned, I don't know it.

Mr. Jenner. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over?

Mr. Murret. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. Murret. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.

Mr. Jenner. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything?

Mr. Murret. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two children with her.

Mr. Jenner. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home?

Mr. Murret. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must have come in the daytime.

Mr. Murret. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the baby, and Lee.

Mr. Murret. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.

Mr. Jenner. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made over to Mobile?

Mr. Murret. I was there—not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds.

Mr. Murret. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he was making.

Mr. Murret. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?

Mr. Murret. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of Castro, on the mantel there.

Mr. Murret. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an automobile?

Mr. Murret. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach him to talk American to his little child.

Mr. Murret. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he didn't give me an answer to that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of Russia?

Mr. Murret. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out the window. I188 figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there.

Mr. Murret. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "I like America."

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter?

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What do you prefer to do in that respect?

Mr. Jenner. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all the questions I have.

Mr. Murret. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him?

Mr. Murret. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. He wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. Murret. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET

The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?

189 Mr. Liebeler. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin?

Mr. Liebeler. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he not, D-u-t-z?

Mr. Liebeler. And you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the New Orleans school system?

Mr. Murret. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. Louis University and Loyola University.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.

Mr. Murret. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did have with him. Since I did live in the house and did——

Mr. Murret. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with him, we ordinarily—sometimes when I am working in that particular neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.

Mr. Murret. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am not too sure.

Mr. Liebeler. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or can't you——

Mr. Murret. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind of confused now on it.

190 Mr. Liebeler. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and Oswald was there?

Mr. Murret. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him other than—you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you gain an impression about that?

Mr. Murret. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but—in fact, I couldn't, you know.

Mr. Murret. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned?

Mr. Murret. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. Other than that—that is the only particular.

Mr. Murret. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar.

Mr. Murret. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Murret. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the States.

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in Russia? Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French Street for about a week? Is that right?

Mr. Murret. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might be.

Mr. Murret. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or some place around there.

Mr. Murret. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding a191 job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.

Mr. Murret. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is all.

Mr. Liebeler. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald apparently rented on Magazine Street?

Mr. Murret. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.

Mr. Liebeler. The Commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?

Mr. Murret. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night—I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job.

Mr. Murret. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was—I could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it.

Mr. Liebeler. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.

Mr. Murret. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget—I guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.

Mr. Liebeler. You had driven the car from your house on French Street over to the parking lot in the park?

Mr. Murret. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is my impression of this. So after—we stayed there awhile and then I let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.

Mr. Murret. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or anything. Nobody was in the park.

Mr. Murret. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. Evidently he could handle the car—I mean just steering—because it was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in New Orleans, as far as you know?

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?

Mr. Murret. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.

Mr. Murret. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, since that time?

Mr. Murret. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your brother indicate—did your brother, Eugene, indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?

Mr. Murret. Well, his mind was—as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.

Mr. Liebeler. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for lunch——

Mr. Liebeler. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. Murret. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.

Mr. Murret. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually couldn't speak to her, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could speak English?

Mr. Murret. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.

Mr. Liebeler. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the English language, did you not?

Mr. Liebeler. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other?

Mr. Murret. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. In fact, they had a television program on one day—I forget what it was, on a Friday night—pertaining to a circus, and it was in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.

Mr. Liebeler. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character from your observations and experience with him in 1963?

Mr. Murret. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I say, his appearance in general—I mean, just by looking at him, he just didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, he wouldn't ask for anything.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you form an opinion about his intelligence?

Mr. Murret. He was bright and he impressed me—you know, bright in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the right direction, I really don't know, but he was—but he improved particularly, you know,194 from the younger years that I had known him. He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive.

Mr. Murret. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual wouldn't use in conversation.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature?

Mr. Liebeler. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after the radio debate?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in connection with those events?

Mr. Liebeler. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been involved in getting Oswald out of jail?

Mr. Murret. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did.

Mr. Murret. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to hold any conversation with him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he was when he was a kid?

Mr. Murret. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic].

Mr. Liebeler. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you say, or how much contact did you have with Robert?

Mr. Murret. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to them.

Mr. Liebeler. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, that you can remember, was there?

Mr. Liebeler. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would like to have you tell us.

Mr. Murret. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, right away, he has a job located for you—in photography I think it was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say anything when you told him that this employment agency was looking for him?

Mr. Murret. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was looking for. Other than that, that is all.

Mr. Murret. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, different ones, but it was amazing—not amazing, but evidently when he was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by.

Mr. Murret. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went looking for a job?

Mr. Murret. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only suit he had that I know of.

Mr. Liebeler. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out at the place on French Street?

Mr. Murret. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the handbag which is similar to—you know, like a basketball equipment bag.

Mr. Liebeler. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this point.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. Jenner. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. 11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack Ruby.

The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, to my surprise, that you were very much alive?

Mr. Jenner. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130,197 of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of deposition, as we are doing here today.

Mr. Pic. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was still alive.

Mr. Pic. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told him I didn't; and that was all.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or misinformation. Who was it that said—was it Will Rogers, that said the reports of his death were very much exaggerated?

So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the country, are you not?

Mr. Jenner. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that right, Mr. Pic?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually terminated?

Mr. Jenner. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple of years; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. What was your business or occupation when you were married to Marguerite?

Mr. Jenner. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has changed; is that right?

198 Mr. Pic. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department of the company.

Mr. Jenner. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your own words what difficulty you had with her.

Mr. Pic. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it come out to four.

Mr. Jenner. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?

Mr. Pic. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing off; which we did.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a nice girl at that time?

Mr. Pic. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I had a rotten disposition, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening years; haven't you?

Mr. Jenner. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another "Jr.," or II or III?

Mr. Pic. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, and we did.

Mr. Jenner. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child support to your son?

Mr. Pic. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much as I could out of the salary I would make.

Mr. Pic. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent monthly checks.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.

Mr. Jenner. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?

Mr. Pic. Let's see—I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.

Mr. Jenner. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a month, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?

Mr. Pic. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., or Brownsville; I just don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they refresh your recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. Pic. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort Worth about then.

Mr. Jenner. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she was in Fort Worth?

Mr. Jenner. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments were finally stopped, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved around quite a bit, as we know?

Mr. Pic. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where she would be from time to time—you know, let me know where to send the check.

Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, because I didn't know he was working.

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the Coast Guard?

Mr. Pic. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. So anyway201 after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.

Mr. Pic. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.

Mr. Jenner. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you haven't seen Marguerite?

Mr. Pic. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and her son, and all.

I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, "Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy at all.

Mr. Jenner. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is that right?

Mr. Pic. No; not till I read about him in the paper—that she had another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in the paper.

Mr. Pic. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother never did tell him about his old man.

Mr. Jenner. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even know if he knows you are alive, do you?

Mr. Jenner. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.

Mr. Pic. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was mentioned to me.

Mr. Jenner. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the deposition and it202 will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you want to waive that?

Mr. Pic. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want a lot of publicity or anything, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and telling us what you know about it.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO

The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will provide you copies of those documents.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you actually received 3 days' notice.

Mr. Liebeler. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any question that you will——

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro, concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953–54.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record.

203 Mr. Liebeler. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its environs?

Mr. Carro. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in 1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public Administration, under the city executive program.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here in New York?

Mr. Carro. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law partnership where I practice.

Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court.

Mr. Carro. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am trying to recollect—from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public office or any other——

Mr. Carro. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a social—I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the "street gang project."

From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative.

In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the mayor of the city of New York.

Mr. Liebeler. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate to youth, or more generally——

Mr. Carro. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board, the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you first become interested in this? Was this because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior to that?

Mr. Carro. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I happened to read—I heard that probation work with youth—than welfare investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work, and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach,204 working in the streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police department, in the thought that I would like to do that.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time that you worked as a probation officer did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about that in your own words?

Mr. Carro. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had been asked to come into court with the boy.

My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study. The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible determination as to the case.

This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer assigned to do the investigation in the case.

Mr. Liebeler. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed in the Youth House, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House?

Mr. Carro. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this particular instance it was most important because there was a question of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed should happen in this instance.

Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what was going on in Youth House.

In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, along with what the probation officer has205 been able to get from visits to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever the judge would deem in the particular instance.

Mr. Liebeler. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was remanded to Youth House?

Mr. Carro. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type—when I say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do anything.

The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he asked for the study at the Youth House.

Mr. Carro. No; I only know that—I did not know the staff by name. I had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report, but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee Oswald.

Mr. Carro. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr. Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that came to us.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed these children and talked to them?

Mr. Liebeler. Or did he just administer the work of other psychiatrists, do you know?

Mr. Carro. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr. Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not.

Mr. Carro. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the first couple of days. It was only almost—I believe it was after the burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas, 1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior.

A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you know who that case is?"

And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about something that I knew that no one else knew, and206 I went upstairs and I told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington, so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything."

The story didn't break in the papers—this was on a Tuesday or Wednesday—until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley, and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do with him?"

They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him." But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened. I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know, that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from the average boy that I had on probation.

And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not—how do you call it—not odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it mean anything to me.

As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty.

Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he—it seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution.

Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to it, and she resisted this.

We tried—or even before we came into the case, before the case came to court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe it was,207 and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms, and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the court's OK.

As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes, that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting us know, and just never came back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea that you were going to take the boy and place him?

Mr. Carro. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, "Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and try that."

I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also; something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected.

Mr. Liebeler. There is a summary report in the file that he had been elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report to that effect. Do you recall anything about that?

Mr. Carro. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the American flag."

Mr. Carro. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know, singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I recall.

Mr. Liebeler. You indicated that you had the feeling that the possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that?

Mr. Carro. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of means in Louisiana when my husband was alive."

Here in New York she just felt that people were—this was just bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may have been as disturbed as the208 boy but we were just trying to get her involved in whatever plan we had for the boy.

Mr. Carro. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her inability to cope with this situation.

Then this plus, this idea—I don't know if she, in fact, came from wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if—I can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or Louisiana, that this had——

Mr. Carro. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that in some other States—I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that. I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the court felt that it was OK.

Mr. Liebeler. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State, that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not?

Mr. Carro. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it would be up to the judge.

You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark, N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see209 if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing.

So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this.

Mr. Carro. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then, and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. This is about the sum total of what happened there.

Mr. Carro. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost 9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant place and he was—well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated their being able to service him.

I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him down.

Children's village at the time, which could have given service to this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the limits of the situation we had with the boy at home.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth House, is it not?

Mr. Carro. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist.

Mr. Liebeler. He never actually did do that, however, because he left the State?

Mr. Carro. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time?

Mr. Carro. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed boys, and210 this was one of the problems, this was just initially a truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted as—I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more extreme nature.

Mr. Liebeler. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a real mental problem or prone to violence or——

Mr. Carro. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in here.

It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children.

But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going to school; he had no friends; he had—no agency was working with the family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man. He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going for him outside.

Mr. Liebeler. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show any inclination to cooperate.

Mr. Carro. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, "Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through, between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him see these things through.

Mr. Liebeler. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy himself, you would say?

Mr. Carro. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance or psychotic disorder.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a tendency to stay home and watch television?

211 Mr. Liebeler. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York?

Mr. Carro. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city, because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my hands.

I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates—I don't think I was down there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock.

Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I fought with the Negro boys until things worked out—and, as I remember, things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school.

But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them.

Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and to dress the same way or even comb his hair—you know, here the kids wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There is no—that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school and that he had other, more important things to learn and do.

Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I don't know—but it didn't—let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another fashion.

Mr. Liebeler. I understand that some statements have been made, based apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old, to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such indication in Lee Oswald?

Mr. Carro. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that just keeps them on their marginal—what do you call—on this marginal living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from just blowing up or exploding altogether.

I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and say, "I am me. I am alive."

212 I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment. And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's attention—most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that motivated Oswald?

Mr. Carro. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently was trying to find himself and really had been—you know, he had been knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some people are prone to this.

I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage.

As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty sincerely say such a thing.

Mr. Liebeler. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to review the records of the case before you——

Mr. Carro. No; I had no—there was nothing to review. Those kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only recollection—and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned—there were five reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from me, who called me to say that.

Mr. Carro. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to refresh my recollection about.

Mr. Liebeler. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition that was filed, or the memorandum——

Mr. Carro. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't—an FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what was in the record there.

Mr. Carro. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside of the records he had.

Mr. Liebeler. The records which you would have prepared would be prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct?

Mr. Carro. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point as to what happened 12 years ago.

213 Mr. Liebeler. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald. This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr. Carro. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer based on his getting together all this data.

And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the actual study.

And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, who appeared, when, and I note that my signature—not my signature but my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954.

Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I made to the court.

Mr. Carro. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former associate thought that the family may have been living in California.

Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but couldn't get back any positive reports.

Mr. Liebeler. Would this particular document, which I will mark as "Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New York—would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of the record as a special report?

Mr. Carro. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are the records—this is the actual record that is kept by the probation department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate report.

Mr. Liebeler. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of the action taken?

Mr. Carro. This is the record that the probation officer maintains while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or—all the contacts and any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here and make a small notation.

214 Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this report?

Mr. Carro. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn—and I refer to the entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation—those bearing the name John Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report.

Mr. Liebeler. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked is a somewhat illegible copy.

Mr. Liebeler. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr. Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would be of help to the Commission?

Mr. Carro. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you.

Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it is, and they are amply—I don't think that I could add anything independently that would be of help to the Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely.

Mr. Carro. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS

The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April 16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will provide you with copies of these documents.

The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice since we are here.

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in 1953 or 1954.

Dr. Hartogs. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it.

Mr. Liebeler. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State of New York, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice of medicine as a psychiatrist?

Mr. Liebeler. How long have you been practicing here in the United States as a psychiatrist?

Mr. Liebeler. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of medicine?

Mr. Liebeler. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House of New York City, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are.

Dr. Hartogs. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number. As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.

I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very interesting216 cases which have come up and to which the professional public of New York City is invited.

So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason why I vaguely remember him.

Mr. Liebeler. You were also, as you have testified, the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953.

Mr. Liebeler. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much the same in 1953 as they are now?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have about two staff members for every child.

Mr. Liebeler. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were other psychiatrists.

Dr. Hartogs. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. Sometimes we had even four.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?

Dr. Hartogs. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff continuously.

Mr. Liebeler. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York?

Dr. Hartogs. Right now it is part of the probation department of the city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth House.

Mr. Liebeler. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it still a private organization at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you outline for us in general terms what the procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.

Dr. Hartogs. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure drawings. That is a special test that is given.

Dr. Hartogs. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right away from the beginning we—I see them right away on an emergency basis and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy. Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We217 have our own workshops for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.

Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the parents of the child who are invited.

Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist.

And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth House staff.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House?

Mr. Liebeler. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you see during the period of time in a week, average week?

Mr. Liebeler. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours with each child, is that correct?

Dr. Hartogs. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen for about half an hour to an hour.

Dr. Hartogs. By me, but then I have also to study the record which takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that counts about 2 hours.

Mr. Liebeler. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can remember about that interview in your own words.

Dr. Hartogs. That is tough. I remember that—actually I reconstructed this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a mild charge as truancy from school.

This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is the reason why we discussed him in the seminar.

I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact with reality.

Dr. Hartogs. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember actually.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you gave; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview with Lee Oswald itself?

Dr. Hartogs. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.

218 Mr. Liebeler. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of the seminar?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the child; then the Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the court.

Mr. Liebeler. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject matter for the seminar?

Dr. Hartogs. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select these children.

Dr. Hartogs. No; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely informal.

Mr. Liebeler. The only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of Oswald?

Dr. Hartogs. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this youngster should be committed to an institution.

Mr. Liebeler. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?

Dr. Hartogs. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that is the average stay.

Mr. Liebeler. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?

Dr. Hartogs. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a training school. These are the three purposes.

Mr. Liebeler. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that?

Dr. Hartogs. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is maximum.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that Oswald be committed to?

Dr. Hartogs. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. This is a prerogative of the court.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you recommend a child?

219 Dr. Hartogs. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this case what I recommended.

Mr. Liebeler. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially dangerous?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had previous contact?

Dr. Hartogs. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording.

Dr. Hartogs. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the expressions.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that indicated this?

Mr. Liebeler. What did you do after you learned or became aware that Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact?

Dr. Hartogs. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did not know for sure, but it is possible.

And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, "You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for sure that it was me, because they must have read a report.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy?

Dr. Hartogs. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then reconstructed everything in my mind.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you make any statement to television people in connection with this at all?

Dr. Hartogs. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the television people asked me to make a statement on television in general about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the President.

Dr. Hartogs. That a person who would commit such an act has been very likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to overcome his own220 insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general terms.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had examined Lee Oswald?

Dr. Hartogs. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure.

Mr. Liebeler. So you made no reference at that time to the examination which you had made of Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the report which you made at the time you examined Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that report since the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. So the recollection that you have given us as regards your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly impressed by the boy, who was only 13½ years old at the time, because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling that to the agents?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say, nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I remembered; yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and pale-faced boy?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember what particular thing it was about Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis?

Dr. Hartogs. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, his mental endowment?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least average at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to my initials.

(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report" marked "Exhibit 1.")

221 Mr. Liebeler. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the report that you prepared at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at the report that you made at that time?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." Yes.

Mr. Liebeler. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy."

Mr. Liebeler. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled "Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not?

Mr. Liebeler. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy?"

Mr. Liebeler. Yes. As you now read your report—and it is perfectly understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11 years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11 years ago.

Mr. Liebeler. As you read this report and reflect on this report and on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. It would not appear from this report that you found any indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would indicate this possible violent outburst, is there?

Mr. Liebeler. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it in the report?

Dr. Hartogs. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential.

Mr. Liebeler. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially dangerous" in the report.

Dr. Hartogs. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not.

Mr. Liebeler. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in occurrence, are they not amongst people?

Dr. Hartogs. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The passive-aggressive one is the least common.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you describe for us briefly what the passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, what do they indicate?

222 Dr. Hartogs. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees.

Mr. Liebeler. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile tendencies toward others?

Dr. Hartogs. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.

Mr. Liebeler. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the mother?

Dr. Hartogs. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report.

Mr. Liebeler. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not?

Mr. Liebeler. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of psychotic mental changes could be made"?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home environment here in New York at the time he came?

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?

Dr. Hartogs. No; I would not say. This was not the personality disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It is not the result of recent conditioning.

Mr. Liebeler. After reading your report, are you able to form an opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy?

Dr. Hartogs. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors.

Mr. Liebeler. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President?

Mr. Liebeler. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much, Doctor.

"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is concerned. This is his first contact with the law.

"He is—tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. He likes the give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides—and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of awkwardness and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and negativistic features were thus noticed—but psychotic mental content was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at.

"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is 'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement.

"Lee is the product of a broken home—as his father died before he was born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army—while the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and frustrations. He did not enjoy being together with other children and when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to the one of girls—he answered—'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent protest against his neglect by her—and represents his reaction to a complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee.

"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting from a mastoidectomy in224 1946. History of convulsions and accidental injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental disease.

"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school—which brought him into Youth House. No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any other form of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."

TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL

The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m., on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony since you are here. Is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts, releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it.

Mrs. Siegel. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the transcripts are released?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as225 a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.

Mr. Liebeler. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in New York as a social worker?

Mrs. Siegel. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of Social Work.

Mr. Liebeler. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did you terminate your employment with Youth House?

Mrs. Siegel. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in August—well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same institution setup, in August of 1958.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth House as it existed in 1953?

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me?

Mrs. Siegel. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court, so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth House, which was given to the judge.

Mrs. Siegel. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and reported, do you know?

Mrs. Siegel. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by Dr. Hartogs alone.

Mr. Liebeler. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report?

Mrs. Siegel. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report from226 those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on.

Mr. Liebeler. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social worker; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Siegel. After the President's assassination, the name meant nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans, which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all.

Mr. Liebeler. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as it was at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your recollection?

Mrs. Siegel. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in those days. I don't remember.

Mrs. Siegel. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am terribly curious to see my report again.

Mrs. Siegel. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to 1958—6 years.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection that from time to time the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the psychologists and other employees of Youth House?

Mrs. Siegel. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars. We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself.

Mr. Liebeler. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being the sole role.

Mrs. Siegel. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you. Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the subject of one of these seminars?

227 Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was?

Mr. Liebeler. And you have no independent recollection about it otherwise at all?

Mr. Liebeler. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7, 1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time have been you; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you prepared?

Mr. Liebeler. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of the interview, were they not?

Mrs. Siegel. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he was still at Youth House.

Mr. Liebeler. The point being that the report would accurately reflect the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother?

Mr. Liebeler. And it was prepared on or about the time that you conducted the interview, was it not?

Mr. Liebeler. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964, and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

Mr. Liebeler. I show you another report, which upon examination you will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are.

Mrs. Siegel. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which should go into the report to the court.

Mr. Liebeler. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your actual contact with the boy and with the mother?

Mr. Liebeler. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other personnel; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. We will mark the document to which we have just been referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey—Charge: Truancy," and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of 7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials—does it not?

Mrs. Siegel. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it.

Mrs. Siegel. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an "E" like that. I don't know who did that.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no question, however, that this is the report prepared by you?

Mrs. Siegel. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation into the record. I know—that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is.

Mr. Liebeler. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please?

Mr. Liebeler. After reviewing the report which you prepared in connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed so that you could add anything other than that which is already set forth in the written report which you prepared at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say after reviewing the report that you prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in 1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of violence?

Mrs. Siegel. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not prepared to say.

Mr. Liebeler. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the material set forth in your report; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mr. Liebeler. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO

The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it229 at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.

Mr. Liebeler. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa Ana, Calif., for a period of time.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. Delgado. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.

Mr. Delgado. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that last 6 in that digit means.

Mr. Liebeler. And would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?

Mr. Delgado. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic training took care of that.

December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany.

Mr. Delgado. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then I was—I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.

230 Mr. Delgado. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line battery, Delta Battery.

Mr. Delgado. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am working.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?

Mr. Delgado. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.

Mr. Liebeler. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now.

Mr. Delgado. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and my mother lives in California.

Mr. Liebeler. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S. No. 2.

Mr. Delgado. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.

Mr. Delgado. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went to public school, Dewey Junior High School—I don't know what P.S. it is—from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the—about the 11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.

Mr. Liebeler. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you then join the Marine Corps?

Mr. Delgado. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. Delgado. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2½ months, and I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. Delgado. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My mother came when she was about 13.

Mr. Delgado. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. Liebeler. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do you remember?

Mr. Delgado. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana?

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi or Jacksonville?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school in Jacksonville and Biloxi?

Mr. Liebeler. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military Occupation Specialty. Is that right?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems.

232 Mr. Delgado. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got discharged.

Mr. Liebeler. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Ana?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; we all had access to information, classified information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.

Mr. Liebeler. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room?

Mr. Liebeler. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft?

Mr. Liebeler. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information?

Mr. Delgado. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that.

Mr. Delgado. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.

Mr. Liebeler. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets knew these things?

Mr. Delgado. They all knew. What do they call it now—authentication charts, which is also a secret.

Mr. Delgado. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets—authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of it—and day to day, also.

Mr. Liebeler. So that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had—we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.

Mr. Delgado. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know—I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't associate with too many people.

Mr. Delgado. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really developed until I went on leave——oh, yes. At the time he was—he was commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.

So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine.

Mr. Delgado. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.

Mr. Delgado. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that—I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.

He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that I know of out or see anybody about it.

As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean?

234 Mr. Delgado. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another.

Mr. Delgado. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man that complained quite frequently.

Mr. Delgado. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.

Mr. Delgado. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that area"—"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that.

Mr. Delgado. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to Santa Ana?

Mr. Delgado. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a couple of guys stationed with him.

Mr. Delgado. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was two of them stationed with him overseas.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else overseas other than Atsugi?

Mr. Liebeler. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines for a while?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?

Mr. Delgado. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.

Mr. Liebeler. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?

235 Mr. Delgado. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.

Mr. Delgado. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line.

Mr. Delgado. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.

Mr. Delgado. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters—no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.

Mr. Delgado. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.

Mr. Delgado. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Mr. Delgado. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved—liked, you know, going to the range.

Mr. Liebeler. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.

Mr. Liebeler. When you said before that you were in the same line as Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?

Mr. Delgado. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in the line from you when you fired?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time?

Mr. Delgado. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no competition.

Mr. Liebeler. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported——

Mr. Delgado. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit.

Mr. Liebeler. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with each other.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time?

Mr. Delgado. One is at home, twice in the battery—no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one time one was a Spanish—I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.

Mr. Delgado. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man from England the way he speaks pure English.

237 Mr. Liebeler. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in interpreting my Spanish.

Mr. Liebeler. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they talked to you? Were they——

Mr. Delgado. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different fellows.

Mr. Delgado. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.

Mr. Delgado. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.

Mr. Delgado. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.

Mr. Liebeler. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when?

Mr. Delgado. About January, about a month or a month and a half after Kennedy's assassination.

Mr. Delgado. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November 22—I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.

Mr. Liebeler. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about?

Mr. Delgado. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score.

Mr. Liebeler. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?

Mr. Liebeler. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.

Mr. Liebeler. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base—is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. It appears from the record here, from the report that I have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.

Mr. Liebeler. So that this would have been the time that the Spanish-speaking man was there?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool—they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing?

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."

Mr. Liebeler. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not come close to winning?

Mr. Delgado. No; because I was—I was one of the highest ones there, I always had an expert badge on me.

Mr. Liebeler. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine—rather, this is the M-14, the new one.

Mr. Liebeler. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not?

Mr. Delgado. Right; in all our—well, I think they call them 201 files also in the Marines Corps—I can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. That's why they are so strict.

Mr. Liebeler. And there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?

Mr. Liebeler. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?

Mr. Delgado. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky.

Mr. Delgado. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You just have to take your chances.

Mr. Liebeler. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this?

Mr. Delgado. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.

239 Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.

You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.

Mr. Liebeler. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even in connection with this?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place?

Mr. Delgado. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I never got real close to any of them.

Mr. Liebeler. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?

Mr. Delgado. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?

Mr. Delgado. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.

Mr. Liebeler. You are talking now about the interview when the Spanish-speaking agent was present?

Mr. Delgado. He kept on sitting—he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything—I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in—be able240 to decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him.

You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake when we go—I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going to do.

If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.

Mr. Liebeler. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it.

Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and——

Mr. Delgado. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan—there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; Henry Morgan—not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. Delgado. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from—this was really weird, you know, but——

Mr. Delgado. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-241supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. Delgado. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted—right—in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

Mr. Delgado. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.

As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.

Mr. Delgado. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something.

And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about—how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to answer him. I told him go see them.

Mr. Delgado. Right. And I took it to be just a—one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for—I was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these letters—you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. He always had money. That's why.

Mr. Delgado. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was pretty tight.

So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him.

We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his.

I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.

242 Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.

Mr. Delgado. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man, because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing.

Mr. Delgado. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to 10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night.

I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick.

Mr. Liebeler. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard duty that he was on; is that right?

Mr. Delgado. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to 4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time with the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. Delgado. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date—time. Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper—they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this—and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

Mr. Liebeler. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the Cuban consulate; did he not?

Mr. Delgado. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little—like church, things we get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church.

243 Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. Delgado. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the envelope, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't understand. It was Latin.

Mr. Delgado. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that paper again, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban consulate was about?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going over to Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to—once he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in 2 years—in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over here in 2 years, something like that.

Mr. Delgado. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged.

Mr. Liebeler. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk?

Mr. Delgado. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact if we wanted to go, you know, but——

Mr. Liebeler. So you got the impression that he started to get serious about going to Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's attitude and his approach?

Mr. Delgado. Right. He said that was all due to mal—bad newspaper reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from Cuba that we were before.

Mr. Liebeler. So Oswald basically took the position that you were getting a distorted view of Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got came from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. Delgado. No. He was getting that way before he even started corresponding with them.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian—aside from English, of course?

244 Mr. Delgado. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand.

Mr. Delgado. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister.

Mr. Delgado. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already.

Mr. Delgado. Well, a guy like him would find—would have no difficulty in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must have been supported by Castro.

Mr. Liebeler. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Louisiana?

Mr. Delgado. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of his arrest.

Mr. Delgado. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing pamphlets out in the street.

Mr. Liebeler. You said before that you were in Germany until approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962?

Mr. Delgado. No. I wanted to—I knew that he was over there going to school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never did follow through. There was too much redtape.

Mr. Delgado. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.

Mr. Liebeler. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Mr. Delgado. In November. As—when I got back, I saw the pictures all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the investigation there.

Mr. Liebeler. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in Berlin, going to school?

Mr. Liebeler. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the Soviet Union?

245 Mr. Delgado. Yes. I couldn't—Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict, you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to study there. He wanted to study psychology.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the Marines?

Mr. Delgado. No; because I—the way I understand it, it's—there's two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was—one was in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland—he couldn't have gone to Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland.

Mr. Liebeler. So you figured that because he had this interest in psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very well have gone to the one in Berlin?

Mr. Delgado. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train him their way.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they would train him their way?

Mr. Delgado. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.

Mr. Liebeler. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school?

Mr. Liebeler. You received no particular information? You just figured this out for yourself?

Mr. Liebeler. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Delgado. He could meet the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be understood. That's not too clear, is it?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a 117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan.

Mr. Liebeler. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or anything like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how well Oswald could speak Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave me.

Mr. Delgado. I told him off the bat, I can't—my spelling is bad, you know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable.

Mr. Delgado. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you think you speak Spanish so good?"—after he gave me the test, you know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it off.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far as basic conversation and debate; no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?

Mr. Delgado. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak Spanish—now, no political discussions were talked about. This was small talk when we were talking Spanish.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo——

Mr. Liebeler. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish.

Mr. Delgado. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our Government or—nothing Socialist, mind you.

Mr. Delgado. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom——

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple of other fellows went to Tijuana.

Mr. Delgado. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because when we247 went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was Spanish—they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with the girls, you know, which was in my—you know, I had taught him just what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald.

Mr. Delgado. He's a radar operator also. And there's another fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've teached—taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that. Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?

Mr. Delgado. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can use, and if you use them, let's see—how can I—well, the pasts and present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"—"I'm going to the theatre"—you know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way of saying it. The best way—let me see if I can get you a good phrase. I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that you use it now and not later?" Things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to put them in a sentence logically?

Mr. Delgado. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the show I will go, or248 to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain.

Mr. Liebeler. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned the Spanish words?

Mr. Liebeler. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish.

Mr. Liebeler. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas known?

Mr. Delgado. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and made himself understood.

Mr. Delgado. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the kind you buy out there for about $2.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.

Mr. Delgado. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do remember, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been to Germany?

Mr. Liebeler. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other language to any extent; he just used a few words?

Mr. Delgado. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was speaking.

Mr. Delgado. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.

Mr. Delgado. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to him.

Mr. Delgado. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught him—I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing that is happening now.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change your story?

Mr. Liebeler. He was trying to get you to back away from the proposition that Oswald understood Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be at a tie with the Cuban government.

Mr. Liebeler. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you get about the agents?

Mr. Delgado. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I am concerned.

If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6 months—and I told these FBI men—he could hold a conversation with me, I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months' time he could hold a conversation.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself were not good at Spanish?

Mr. Liebeler. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents' attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach—I mean I am not a teacher. I don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That is no practical use for him, you know.

I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a Spanish fellow—you are in Juarez—and be prepared to receive an answer from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what I teach these guys, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and understand them; is that right?

Mr. Delgado. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you know.

250 Mr. Liebeler. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking agent was there?

Mr. Liebeler. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your Spanish to express yourself completely?

Mr. Delgado. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there—I think is what that sentence you have in front of you is—that, say—how can I say it?—you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many times Oswald went to Los Angeles?

Mr. Delgado. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as far as I can remember.

Mr. Liebeler. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion?

Mr. Delgado. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never asked him. It wasn't my business, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of some sort.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on weekends at other times?

Mr. Delgado. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion that you can remember; is that right?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, you know. I was sitting in the old251 man's office, the commanding officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either.

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other week or anything like that?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three weekends a month.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times that he went into Los Angeles?

Mr. Delgado. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie.

Mr. Liebeler. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. And that he would often talk at length about the opera; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9 times out of 10 I ended up paying for it.

Mr. Delgado. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I read in Life Magazine?

Mr. Delgado. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he went off the team.

To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we worked, and he was too old to play football.

Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit.

Mr. Delgado. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth.

252 Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was? Was this the issue——

Mr. Delgado. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover, holding the rifle?

Mr. Delgado. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that.

Mr. Delgado. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any interest in sports?

Mr. Liebeler. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the football team?

Mr. Delgado. That is just one example, the football. But he never went out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and handball; and that was it.

Mr. Delgado. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, quarterback or anything like that, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for competition.

Mr. Liebeler. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this trip to Tijuana?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before the rifle qualification or after?

Mr. Delgado. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period, because we were about just gotten paid, you know.

Mr. Delgado. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why because they worked in a different department than I did there, never had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with me plenty of times and he never bothered going—I said, "Oswald, let's go to Tijuana."

253 He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of us were, in casual clothes.

We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before, because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to get to this place, you know.

Mr. Delgado. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2 miles away from the center of the town.

When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of being a very nice and exclusive club, you know—it wasn't one of these clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was really nice, a nice place.

Mr. Delgado. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all.

Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you can remember?

Mr. Delgado. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was when I went to the provost marshal—not the provost marshal—the M.P. gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put in for a new I.D. card and what have you.

Mr. Delgado. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone.

Mr. Delgado. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me like he had one.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his experiences, that you can remember?

Mr. Delgado. No; it was—nothing extraordinary was said. The way of life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like that to exist, things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a copy of Das Kapital?

Mr. Delgado. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it.

So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know.

Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only logical explanation.

They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. But you do remember that when you would walk into the room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book, the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running the whole farm and the farmer was working for them.

Mr. Delgado. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read it?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention255 apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that?

Mr. Delgado. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an anti-Communist book.

Mr. Liebeler. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each other a little bit; is that right?

Mr. Delgado. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army, very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's statement with no proof whatsoever.

So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," you know.

I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.

Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher——

Mr. Delgado. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I come back he was already gone.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he actually got out of the Marines?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get away from Oswald before you went on leave?

Mr. Delgado. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be under another guy.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at Santa Ana?

256 Mr. Liebeler. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is that right?

Mr. Delgado. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to the other huts.

Mr. Liebeler. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before this question of your transfer ever came up?

Mr. Liebeler. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let us review that for a moment.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave and then come back?

Mr. Delgado. About in August, I think—September to October, something like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone.

Mr. Liebeler. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come back to New York?

Mr. Delgado. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation.

Mr. Delgado. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them about August.

Mr. Delgado. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good weather.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually transferred to another hut?

Mr. Delgado. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.

Mr. Delgado. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a257 hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too.

Mr. Liebeler. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the Marines together about going to Russia?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least $800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to go through.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was?

Mr. Delgado. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los Angeles—the month, you want?

Mr. Delgado. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle practice?

Mr. Delgado. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I don't think we had any political discussions at all.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these incidents, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after your leave before you were discharged?

Mr. Delgado. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald "Comrade," or anything like that, you know.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get mixed up in it.

258 Mr. Liebeler. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him Oswaldovich?

Mr. Delgado. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have too many close friends.

Mr. Delgado. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now.

Mr. Liebeler. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports and that sort of thing?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all.

Mr. Delgado. Well, one instance was when we were all standing formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped out, Oswald the first one he seen.

Mr. Delgado. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy.

Mr. Delgado. Funk. And he had a tendency to—he was very—very bad leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known Oswald?

Mr. Delgado. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, Holbrook or—something like that.

Mr. Delgado. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make—he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.

Mr. Liebeler. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember mentioning him to the FBI agents?

Mr. Delgado. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short259 fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. Delgado. At the time—at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been promoted?

Mr. Delgado. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he was court-martialed.

Mr. Delgado. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from overseas.

Mr. Delgado. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the war room.

Mr. Liebeler. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were passing notes back and forth.

Mr. Delgado. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me.

Mr. Delgado. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft on their scopes.

Mr. Delgado. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the plotting board.

Mr. Liebeler. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time?

Mr. Delgado. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.

Mr. Liebeler. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks.

Mr. Delgado. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't.

Mr. Delgado. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. His parents were boatbuilders. He owned—his family owned a big boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them——

Mr. Delgado. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, and he was also our platoon officer.

Mr. Liebeler. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that correct?

Mr. Delgado. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care.

Mr. Delgado. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away.

Mr. Delgado. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, "You're getting as bad as Oz."

But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on restriction at the same time.

Mr. Delgado. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be court-martialed for it.

Mr. Liebeler. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties with Oswald?

Mr. Delgado. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in trouble like that?

Mr. Delgado. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two guys defected.

Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it was a year261 later that these two guys from the United States, working for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing just how you go about doing it.

Mr. Liebeler. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also defected to Russia at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men did defect?

Mr. Delgado. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States into Mexico into Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something to that effect.

Mr. Liebeler. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination that Oswald went to Mexico?

Mr. Delgado. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba?

Mr. Delgado. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him to cross over into Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going to Cuba.

Mr. Liebeler. So there is no chance that you read this later and are confusing this as something that Oswald said before?

Mr. Delgado. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in 1960 or 1961.

Mr. Delgado. He was—he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was religious.

Mr. Delgado. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk.

Mr. Delgado. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He himself never went.

Mr. Delgado. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.

Mr. Liebeler. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show how wrong it was?

Mr. Delgado. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and I told them he was an atheist. That's all.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life?

Mr. Delgado. Well, this is—military life is the closest to the Socialist way of life, where you had—let's see. How did he phrase it—everything was common or something like that.

Mr. Delgado. That's right, for people. If they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having—if they all got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning everything, and everybody worked for the state.

Mr. Liebeler. How could he say that socialism was like the military, and like socialism, and still hate the military?

Mr. Delgado. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him what to do?

Mr. Delgado. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he thought to be—he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally—mental idiot, he wouldn't like anything you told him to do.

263 Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any other discussions about this comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?

Mr. Delgado. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's——

Mr. Liebeler. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that somebody should give orders like this and——

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. From your association with him that he was intending to do any such thing?

Mr. Liebeler. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that he planned to go to Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter?

Mr. Liebeler. In connection with this discussion of extradition treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into any trouble? Do you remember that?

Mr. Delgado. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina would be the next best."

Mr. Liebeler. But you didn't get any impression from him that he intended to go to Russia?

264 Mr. Delgado. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you know, university—campus.

Mr. Delgado. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call—Call was discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or three—two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your recollection on that?

Mr. Delgado. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald—the last time I seen Oswald.

Mr. Delgado. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, you know, that kind of talk.

Mr. Delgado. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, so we didn't have that much time together.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on the post for a while after he came to——

Mr. Delgado. He lived about—after I got there, about 2 months, and then his wife—he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959.

Mr. Liebeler. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call him Lee or——

Mr. Delgado. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I didn't even know his name was Lee.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real program to teach him Spanish?

Mr. Delgado. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he wanted interpreted, that's it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in your outfit?

Mr. Delgado. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, Charley Brown, but I can't recall.

265 Mr. Delgado. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. I gave them the name of who I thought—felt who the one or two colored fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. Delgado. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his estimation.

Mr. Liebeler. What about your estimation, did you think that they were as smart as Oswald was?

Mr. Delgado. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.

Mr. Delgado. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and politics.

Mr. Delgado. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you know, and leave.

Mr. Delgado. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional beer. I never seen him drunk.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual tendencies?

Mr. Delgado. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or did you ever discuss that with him?

Mr. Delgado. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point.

Mr. Delgado. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating].

Mr. Delgado. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.

Mr. Liebeler. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS

The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:

Mr. Jenner. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter—he is general counsel for the Commission—advising you of the creation of the Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.

And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event.

One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?

Mr. Jenner. And the dates of your service, according to our records, are December 18, 1954—that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?

Mr. Jenner. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment.

Mr. Powers. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.

Mr. Powers. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become acquainted with a man—fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Powers. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when I was en route to Jacksonville—rather from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was—we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge.

Mr. Jenner. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it.

Mr. Powers. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping and Receiving Station, Keesler——

"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders because an FBI report fixes that time as—in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in fact it was May 2, 1957?

Mr. Jenner. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. I mean previous to this May 2d order.

Mr. Powers. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.

Mr. Powers. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. Powers. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you give me the names of—this was a group in which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to——

Mr. Jenner. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in Mississippi, Biloxi?

Mr. Powers. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?

268 Mr. Powers. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you about.

Mr. Jenner. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?

Mr. Jenner. Did it turn out that the five of you—your assignments from then on were—ran relatively parallel?

Mr. Powers. Up to—you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. Powers. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.

I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?

Mr. Powers. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to Keesler.

I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.

Mr. Jenner. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October 18, 1939?

Mr. Jenner. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him?

Mr. Powers. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us.

Mr. Powers. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably—2 days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. So we reported for duty on that particular day.

269 Mr. Jenner. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in Keesler Field.

Mr. Powers. The nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was similar; it was the same in context.

Mr. Powers. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in the classes that we did attend.

Mr. Jenner. These were in general—this was aircraft control and warning operator course?

Mr. Jenner. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices?

Mr. Jenner. Were you awarded the—what is known as the M.O.S., Military Occupation Specialty?

Mr. Powers. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of—excuse me—coming out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and then after—

Mr. Powers. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim.

And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional digit of 47 which would make us a ground—I better not say "ground control," radar operator for—as a guess, I would call it an early warning system.

Mr. Powers. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we picked up our orders to go to California.

Mr. Powers. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June 19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July 1957." This is when we were—2400 hours—we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.

Mr. Powers. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would be—June is 30—it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20——

Mr. Powers. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by commercial carrier. 14 days—rather 19 days' delay.

Mr. Powers. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there to—rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.

Mr. Powers. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at Keesler? That is, did he continue to be—you used the term "loner"—was he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?

Mr. Powers. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that he was one that270 did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his—that his—just his general personality would alienate the group against him.

And to me, he was an individual that—an individual that could come to a point that I don't—that he would come to a point in his life where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other.

Mr. Powers. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, this is a personal opinion.

And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were in there in Mississippi.

He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything.

He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an intelligent individual.

Mr. Powers. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my mind, and I'm not sure whether something—whether it is something that is really true or something that I want to recall——

Mr. Jenner. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report from you as we possibly can.

Mr. Powers. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that particular time.

Mr. Powers. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, two in the room.

It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that something came up at this particular time.

He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just as good as anybody wanted to be.

Mr. Jenner. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability?

Mr. Powers. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified to say who was——

Mr. Jenner. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the course of your studies?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to me, please?

Mr. Jenner. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire that before or—had he already acquired it when you boys came from Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at Keesler?

Mr. Powers. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other personally more than at any other time.

I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind as well as the other people in the group.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to worry about him as competitively?

Mr. Powers. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't any real significance attached to leadership. It was still—we were all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the marine in charge of this particular class if you—I think this is the way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any differentiation of privates.

I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank barrier or difference here.

I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank said something.

Mr. Jenner. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had homosexual tendencies?

Mr. Powers. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some respects.

Mr. Powers. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that period of time.

Mr. Jenner. You said, in the course of your general statement, that your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you elaborate on that?

Mr. Powers. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to lead. I felt—let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time he did not.

And I would say he was a group response—he was easily led; he was responsive to the group as a whole.

At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see today. I see272 individuals that they are fascinated by education, and of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for education was—still at the time he impressed me as an individual who was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own that he was an individual that you could sway.

Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term.

I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have.

I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and he stood in his beliefs.

Mr. Jenner. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high school, if any?

Mr. Powers. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree from the University, and this will either be in physical education or guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have your University of Minnesota education attendance after you left the Marines?

Mr. Powers. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine Corps, and then I went after my service.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school?

Mr. Powers. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my education.

And I think this here put—or any individual, not only myself, or any individual that had a college education, there was a number of them while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of college education.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further education?

Mr. Powers. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude.

Mr. Jenner. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your attention of any kind?

Mr. Powers. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in my mind at this time.

Mr. Jenner. I gathered that you had the impression that he—during this period of time that, this leave period—that he visited New Orleans?

273 Mr. Powers. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to—he used to go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends.

I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at Biloxi, Miss.

Mr. Jenner. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or more of you?

Mr. Powers. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were somewhat different than the other fellows.

Mr. Powers. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots of times maybe three or four of us would go down—in my mind, we used to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, they were quite close, and—but if we were just going down to lie around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever around there.

Mr. Jenner. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave card periods?

Mr. Powers. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection.

Mr. Jenner. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the Biloxi area, is your impression?

Mr. Powers. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, the town, the community, I'm not sure.

But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base.

Mr. Jenner. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum?

Mr. Powers. I'm not sure what the scale—I cannot recollect what the scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top.

Mr. Jenner. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency be a pretty fair rating?

274 Mr. Powers. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus.

Mr. Jenner. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to El Toro, you went by your own respective routes?

Mr. Powers. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi—from Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together.

Mr. Powers. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. And I want to say, it was Bandoni——

Mr. Powers. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and I—this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the other fellows there.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the intervening period, that is, this leave period?

Mr. Powers. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect.

Mr. Powers. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say—I want to say Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted——

Mr. Powers. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having lived for a while in Texas?

Mr. Powers. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is where he went.

Mr. Powers. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August draft, I don't—to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It was sometime in August, around the first of August.

275 Mr. Jenner. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro approximately a month then?

Mr. Jenner. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a replacement trainee.

Mr. Powers. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for overseas.

Mr. Powers. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what he was told and that was it.

I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline.

Mr. Powers. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man rather than Oswald the rabbit.

Mr. Powers. Yes; I think so. I think—this is when I noticed—it can be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going to let anybody else get what he could have.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period of time that you were at El Toro?

Mr. Powers. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in Texas for this period of time, and him coming—being there first—the most we got into—I think we got into an August draft, and I don't think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and got in the July draft.

Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late off his leave, he took an extra week or something.

It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he took his leave in.

Mr. Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you?

Mr. Powers. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats and Mike boats.

276 Mr. Powers. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your embarkation was—would you check your orders, the 21st of August, am I correct?

Mr. Powers. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they are not given to individuals as such.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, what foreign port?

Mr. Powers. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now.

Mr. Powers. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's primary mission is a Navy base.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group?

Mr. Powers. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he——

Mr. Jenner. By the way, do you have pictures of—any pictures of these taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald appears in?

Mr. Powers. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated.

I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or anything like that.

Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata and Schrand—maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force—rather Marine base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a while and talk to him.

And Brereton, I think—no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at—no, that was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike.

Mr. Powers. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni—i-e-, possibly. I think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling season.

Mr. Jenner. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the platoon or group to Oswald.

Mr. Powers. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were277 some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe play—usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to 8 hours, playing chess.

Mr. Powers. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased when he would win.

And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his life.

And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I still have the book.

Mr. Powers. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the United States," and democracy, and books of that nature.

Mr. Powers. They were given to the troops—I'll use that for a lack of a better term—periodically throughout the voyage going over, where they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up and it was standard procedure, I assume.

Mr. Jenner. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read "Leaves of Grass"?

Mr. Powers. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug store or something of that nature.

Mr. Powers. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think this is—whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction or to create an image similar to the ones that we had—I say "we," the people that had more education than the average marine there.

Mr. Powers. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself this way.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that regard?

Mr. Powers. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in Mississippi that he did read some—he was doing further reading than other—what the278 normal individual was doing at that time. I can't recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did this to——

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on the trip over?

Mr. Powers. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of this man during this period of time?

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of the Marines, you might be good gangsters?

Mr. Powers. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this particular period of time or not, I'm not sure.

Mr. Powers. That statement was made and I think it was—he was probably parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think it was—this was a common statement, but as I recall, he—he did say this.

Mr. Powers. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some griping——

Mr. Powers. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance to it.

Mr. Powers. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and assigned to crews within this squadron.

Mr. Jenner. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at Atsugi, Japan?

Mr. Powers. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played football during the fall and during this period of time we would play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the Philippines, and I stayed in Japan.

Mr. Powers. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron went279 down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, and then after that, I was wrestling—I wrestled for a while, and then out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January——

Mr. Powers. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight.

Mr. Powers. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in range or where he could see it visually, and they took over.

Mr. Powers. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, if it didn't have the identification system on.

Mr. Powers. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey—I think is the term that they used—and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew.

Mr. Jenner. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually looking for hot bogeys?

Mr. Powers. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I was playing football or——

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out?

Mr. Jenner. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, in the Philippines?

Mr. Powers. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and then this—something——

280 Mr. Powers. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a particular period of time; and then there was another operation going to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just——

Mr. Powers. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the next operation.

Mr. Jenner. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point?

Mr. Powers. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but they were designated—Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay was the landing area.

Mr. Jenner. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where he got that, and now you explained it for us.

Mr. Powers. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic—isn't it S-u-b-i-c?

Mr. Jenner. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's Cubi Point and Subic Bay.

Mr. Powers. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was for the aircraft.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was the same group that we—that you described earlier that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when you rejoined the squadron?

Mr. Powers. All but certain elements. I think the people in my particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States somewhere.

Mr. Powers. Yes; he was—this happened after I arrived from the Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty.

Mr. Powers. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing that—significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway.

Mr. Jenner. Was there—you don't know what the official finding was with respect to——

Mr. Powers. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other than that, we couldn't—as I recall, we could never realize how a guy could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way [indicating], and "boom," it went off.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in that incident?

Mr. Jenner. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use281 of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the chamber free of slugs?

Mr. Powers. I'm almost sure—again I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that we were issued three shells, and—again, I'm not sure; it seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your chamber itself should be kept free.

Mr. Powers. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as happened.

Mr. Jenner. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with your radar scanning assignment?

Mr. Powers. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned personnel do it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane?

Mr. Powers. Yes, we—this happened again, I think, after the rest of the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were two of us, or three of us from the squadron.

Mr. Powers. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private—Private, First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which Oswald was included in, for the mainland.

Mr. Powers. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, so he must have been there; yes.

Mr. Jenner. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection with these special airplanes of which you now speak?

Mr. Powers. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went up. I think this is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a—did you have an assignment when you were shipped to Corregidor?

Mr. Powers. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where they were preparing—after they prepared their equipment there, and we went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or 6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland.

Mr. Powers. We participated in a—I think it was the 3d Marine Division in the operation of military exercises.

Mr. Powers. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated aircraft, scanning for it.

Mr. Powers. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I have a picture of it in my mind.

282 Mr. Jenner. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he?

Mr. Powers. No; you're assigned—privates and privates first class are assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out of the year.

Mr. Jenner. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your recollection?

Mr. Jenner. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan?

Mr. Powers. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind at Cubi Point.

Mr. Powers. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was—he shot himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which part of the body it was.

Mr. Powers. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been.

Mr. Jenner. What was your information and what is still your information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot.

Mr. Powers. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure.

They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually court-martialed then, I don't know.

Mr. Powers. I think so. All the less, it wasn't—I don't think it was a Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22.

Mr. Powers. Nothing. It—just the name again stuck to—"Ozzie screwed up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I think this was the feeling of the group at that time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of the squadron with respect to him——

Mr. Powers. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held—well, he was in the squadron here—physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any283 more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes.

Mr. Jenner. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during this period?

Mr. Powers. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew——

Mr. Jenner. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service?

Mr. Powers. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you recall—you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I want to recall it or something that is actually fact.

Mr. Jenner. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that because he had the unregistered or private weapon?

Mr. Powers. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. When you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that——

Mr. Jenner. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention?

Mr. Powers. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the—he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm not—again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.

Mr. Powers. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature.

Mr. Powers. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this was common practice—and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, I'm almost—well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement to him again.

Mr. Jenner. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is that what you mean?

Mr. Powers. Yes. This is—this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the ones that did—went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere?

Mr. Powers. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country.

284 Mr. Jenner. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in Japan?

Mr. Jenner. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty?

Mr. Powers. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and—but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went on liberty.

Mr. Powers. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?

Mr. Jenner. All right. What was that operation called in the Philippines, Operation Strong Back?

Mr. Powers. The first one they went down to—when I stayed down to play football; I don't remember what that was.

Mr. Powers. Yes, we—this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't—he was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have—yes, he was still in Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.

Mr. Jenner. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?

Mr. Powers. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after I left Japan.

Mr. Powers. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en route most of June.

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in Japan?

Mr. Powers. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because a lot of285 people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it.

Some individuals did extend—rather ask for an extension. Whether he did or not, I don't know.

Mr. Powers. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. I don't know.

Mr. Powers. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, Ozzie."

Mr. Powers. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I relate—associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in Japan, but I'm not sure, though.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian language as such?

Mr. Powers. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses.

Mr. Jenner. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer?

Mr. Powers. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. It either came—I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature.

Mr. Powers. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.

Mr. Powers. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or—I think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant before I left to come home, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person?

Mr. Powers. No; I don't think—I think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand up for his own rights?

Mr. Powers. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that first 9 months.

Mr. Powers. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that I would recall.

Mr. Jenner. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other marines?

Mr. Powers. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. He must have been—or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while.

Mr. Powers. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.

Mr. Jenner. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?

Mr. Powers. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.

Mr. Jenner. Did—in any conversation that you had with him, or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?

Mr. Jenner. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. Powers. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard that name associated with him.

Mr. Jenner. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large?

Mr. Powers. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time.

Mr. Powers. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it——

Mr. Powers. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or——

Mr. Powers. It seems to me that there was—he was quite proud of Lee287 Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type of thing. I'm not sure what it was.

Mr. Jenner. During your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind?

Mr. Powers. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have.

Mr. Powers. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.

Mr. Jenner. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball?

Mr. Powers. Well, he was different. You could use it—what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different.

Mr. Powers. He was a different individual, I would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he was—which I previously stated, I think—he was a quiet—if you want to call it—a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.

And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it just followed him. And maybe—physically, like I say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to—ideally supposed to be.

Mr. Powers. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was—he just took the opposite side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps—well, I wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them.

Mr. Jenner. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?

Mr. Powers. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in.

Mr. Powers. There may have been, I suppose, the frail—maybe he portrayed that image—frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, of course, some of the individuals—this is maybe why they were in the Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic problems or school.

Mr. Powers. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the Browning automatic rifle.

Mr. Jenner. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had?

Mr. Powers. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering288 a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that was—wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency—maybe I asked you this—to keep by himself?

Mr. Powers. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that because——

Mr. Jenner. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan because he was not a member of your platoon?

Mr. Jenner. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?

Mr. Powers. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, I believe.

Mr. Powers. It didn't make a difference who was administering—rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably.

Mr. Jenner. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion?

Mr. Jenner. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. Camarata?

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the name of John E. Donovan?

Mr. Jenner. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.

Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with Oswald?

Mr. Powers. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN

The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of President Kennedy.

The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.

290 Mr. Donovan. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. Donovan. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in 1956.

Mr. Ely. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were both members of the Marine Corps.

Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and I will interrupt with questions.

Mr. Donovan. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. Ely. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at El Toro?

Mr. Donovan. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I believe, 5 miles removed.

El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of "LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a radar base.

In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came into contact with Oswald.

Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them.

I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs.

Mr. Donovan. Bill Trail—William Kenneth Trail is his name—had served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine.

Mr. Ely. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and Oswald.

Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer?

Mr. Donovan. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew I was the officer in command.

Mr. Donovan. I believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.

Mr. Ely. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact?

Mr. Donovan. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a day, usually five days a week—sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch.

During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. Often291 this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion to talk to him.

Mr. Ely. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.

Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?

Mr. Donovan. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. Most of them I had served with in Japan.

Mr. Donovan. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond.

Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are interested in—usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in working with them to talk with them about all subjects.

You were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.

Mr. Ely. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there is any point in going into that any further.

Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job?

Mr. Donovan. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions.

Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.

He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate.

Mr. Ely. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform?

Mr. Donovan. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have occasion to inspect them.

But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in that respect.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?

Mr. Donovan. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I believe he was transferred to another hut.

Mr. Ely. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations.

Mr. Donovan. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency292 arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself—and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him.

Mr. Ely. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job?

Mr. Ely. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction?

Mr. Ely. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald and his fellow enlisted men?

Mr. Ely. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers?

Mr. Donovan. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He read a great deal.

Mr. Donovan. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. Ely. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the Russian language?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel—although——

Mr. Ely. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.

Mr. Donovan. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.

Mr. Ely. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content?

Mr. Donovan. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many great—there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation.

I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation.

His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought293 of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you very much."

In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races—or polo matches in Australia.

And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong—when I obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man."

And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international affairs.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about?

I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.

But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.

Mr. Donovan. Yes—but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value—which is one of our better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was not an unpopular belief at that time.

Mr. Donovan. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.

Mr. Ely. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?

Mr. Donovan. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him saying it to anyone else.

Mr. Ely. Based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things?

Mr. Donovan. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared even that companionship with them consistently.

Mr. Ely. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading?

Mr. Donovan. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer——

Mr. Donovan. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and can talk to her.

Mr. Ely. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality?

Mr. Donovan. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which Oswald did extensive reading in?

Mr. Ely. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake?

Mr. Donovan. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some philosophers.

Mr. Donovan. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.

I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it.

Mr. Donovan. No, I don't recall him—oh, he must have mentioned Marx, but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support anything in particular.

Mr. Ely. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy?

Mr. Ely. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages other than Russian and English?

Mr. Donovan. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not—I don't believe he had a command of Spanish.

Mr. Ely. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding German at all?

Mr. Ely. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. Donovan. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.

There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. Ely. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country?

Mr. Donovan. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in Moscow.

Mr. Ely. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country.

Mr. Donovan. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly.

Mr. Ely. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took place295 during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices?

Mr. Donovan. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or wherever I was talking with them about.

But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust.

Mr. Donovan. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and Central American family, and their regime as a family.

Mr. Ely. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in Asia or Latin America?

Mr. Donovan. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.

Mr. Ely. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports.

Mr. Donovan. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle—for better or for worse, again, I should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, at any rate, he stopped playing.

Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.

Mr. Donovan. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember him.

Mr. Donovan. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.

Mr. Donovan. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had a slender build.

Mr. Ely. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility?

Mr. Ely. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player?

Mr. Donovan. I don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school.

Mr. Donovan. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, although296 he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated to a normal degree.

Mr. Donovan. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit.

Mr. Ely. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?

Mr. Ely. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?

Mr. Donovan. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.

Mr. Ely. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle?

Mr. Donovan. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter—or maybe a marksman. If he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in.

Mr. Ely. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine Corps—are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?

Mr. Donovan. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil—namely, you can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.

I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times out of 10.

Mr. Ely. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?

Mr. Donovan. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no reason to suspect that he did.

Mr. Ely. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, and punch the target before the NCO got there?

For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2," and so on. So it would be most unusual.

Mr. Ely. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's characterization?

Mr. Donovan. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious to people listening that he knew297 more than the person he was arguing with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.

But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking about.

Mr. Ely. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?

Mr. Donovan. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself was ridiculous—according to his way of thinking. I don't think that he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.

Mr. Ely. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of NCOs and officers?

Mr. Donovan. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.

Mr. Ely. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was brighter than the officers he was talking to?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, at least in facts.

I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of intelligence.

Mr. Ely. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?

Mr. Ely. Returning to this date that you had with this airline stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?

Mr. Donovan. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.

Mr. Ely. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when she was with him?

Mr. Donovan. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have known.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the Marine Corps?

Mr. Donovan. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to get him a flight—that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, either.

I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.

298 He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been able to recall them a month later, either.

Mr. Ely. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action?

Mr. Donovan. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.

And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be.

Mr. Ely. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. Ely. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. Donovan. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting—in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.

He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio—radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this.

Mr. Donovan. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.

Mr. Ely. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief.

Mr. Donovan. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men—either Sgt. Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where Sergeant Brown is.

Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the Marine Corps.

Mr. Donovan. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his work.

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I think299 he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle.

Mr. Ely. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated leadership qualities?

Mr. Ely. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide never to use him as a crew chief again?

Mr. Ely. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning transportation?

Mr. Donovan. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could, including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him.

Mr. Donovan. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did not from anyone.

Mr. Ely. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?

Mr. Donovan. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just word around the squadron.

Mr. Ely. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get a discharge?

Mr. Donovan. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an only son, and his mother needed help.

Mr. Ely. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be termed mental instability?

Mr. Donovan. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field of foreign affairs—or at least in his discussions with me—and they might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when anyone is solely interested in one given thing.

Mr. Ely. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly angry, did he raise his voice?

Mr. Donovan. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in trying to get you to see what he saw.

Mr. Ely. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms of pounding the table, screaming?

Mr. Donovan. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically worked up than people we talk with every day.

Mr. Ely. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?

Mr. Donovan. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, et cetera.

I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way.

Mr. Ely. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you were at Santa Ana?

Mr. Ely. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you particularly interested in girls.

Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his desires?

Mr. Donovan. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about them.

Mr. Ely. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would suggest an interest in the Soviet Union?

However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera—at least at the time they were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of these books—I don't recall which one—but say, "Are you familiar with this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international economics.

301 Mr. Ely. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international economics, although they might well have been.

Mr. Donovan. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, or up to Disneyland—whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date or something.

Mr. Ely. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average marine, or that he took fewer trips?

Mr. Donovan. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of the ordinary in that respect.

Mr. Donovan. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That spelling is strictly phonetic.

Mr. Donovan. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't ring a bell at all.

Mr. Ely. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and see whether you think——

Mr. Donovan. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to say which would be most——

Mr. Ely. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them individually.

Mr. Donovan. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by the nickname, normally enough, of Bo.

Mr. Donovan. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant.

Mr. Donovan. I would characterize Call as being modestly intelligent—302modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but in reference to his character concerning his intelligence.

Mr. Donovan. I certainly do—quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very dependable boy.

Mr. Donovan. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same crew with Oswald.

Mr. Donovan. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair to say that all the men on the crew would know him?

Mr. Donovan. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day he went home—whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area.

Mr. Donovan. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew him.

Mr. Donovan. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I think he is now Captain Trail.

Mr. Ely. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I have already mentioned?

Mr. Donovan. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area.

Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty—Fred Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him.

Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I don't know if he would remember Oswald or not.

Mr. Donovan. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. Ely. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended offpost bars or night clubs?

Mr. Donovan. I believed not. However, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan.

Mr. Donovan. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he drank to excess.

Mr. Donovan. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact.

303 Mr. Ely. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the questions I have for you.

Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to figure out what sort of a man Oswald was?

Mr. Donovan. There is one name that you did not mention that I know that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it.

The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana.

Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on the phone a couple of times, passing through there.

Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people that were there at the same time.

Mr. Ely. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended to ask you.

Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, or anything that sounded like that?

Mr. Ely. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time and testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC

The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Ely. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you with these documents, is that correct?

Mr. Ely. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony.

You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

304 Colonel Folsom. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Ely. Could you give us something of an idea of your background—what you did before you entered the Marine Corps?

Mr. Ely. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel Folsom. It was in connection with his record, which was requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship, and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge.

Mr. Ely. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test scores and things like that.

Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is.

(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Colonel Folsom. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine.

Mr. Ely. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the upper right-hand corner.

We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page 1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean.

Colonel Folsom. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there were no physical defects at the time he was examined—the date, 24 October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment.

Mr. Ely. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for?

Mr. Ely. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be?

Colonel Folsom. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. In this instance it was days lost due to confinement.

Mr. Ely. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class swimmer. What does that stand for?

Mr. Ely. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to "SA" action.

Mr. Ely. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us generally what this page of the record is.

Colonel Folsom. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows conduct and proficiency markings.

Mr. Ely. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned?

Colonel Folsom. No; there is none as such, because the markings are averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under honorable conditions.

Mr. Ely. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable discharge would be?

Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel Folsom. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company, Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time.

Mr. Ely. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air Force Base.

Mr. Ely. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that stand for?

Colonel Folsom. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital Yokosuka, Japan.

Mr. Ely. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated "To Du" would mean return to duty?

Mr. Ely. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what?

Colonel Folsom. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence summary court-martial.

Mr. Ely. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means?

Mr. Ely. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could you tell us what that stands for?

Mr. Ely. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September 1957 is?

Colonel Folsom. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan.

Mr. Ely. All right. I think that with the help you have given us, anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress of Oswald's service.

306 Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands for?

Mr. Ely. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of that entry?

Colonel Folsom. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a summary court-martial.

Colonel Folsom. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by their local organizations.

Colonel Folsom. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate—it is controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill the needs of the Marine Corps by—in the varying grades.

Mr. Ely. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose—one being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D" designation.

Colonel Folsom. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It is a dependency allotment.

Mr. Ely. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to send out of his pay?

Mr. Ely. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some of the abbreviations found in this record.

Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1 Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course. Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses?

Colonel Folsom. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The "B" course is a shorter course—by that, less rounds of ammunition are fired.

Colonel Folsom. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a result of the scores.

In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with the abbreviation "MM" for marksman.

When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is a correct designation in accordance with the score fired.

Mr. Ely. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he would have been still in basic training at San Diego?

Mr. Ely. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point?

Mr. Ely. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error?

307 Mr. Ely. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.?

Mr. Ely. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45 caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated "FAM." That stands for familiarization?

Colonel Folsom. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the people with the operation of the weapon.

Mr. Ely. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it correct that the scale runs—marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the next highest, and expert would be the highest category?

Mr. Ely. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled "Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these two abbreviations?

Colonel Folsom. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks' duration.

Mr. Ely. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps?

Mr. Ely. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores achieved by Oswald mean?

Colonel Folsom. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation.

Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates "poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This, again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor."

And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses, and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong.

His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout.

Mr. Ely. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was composed of six examinations.

Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, and what Oswald's scores in each of them means?

The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest.

The abbreviation "AC"—arithmetical computation—and the score Roman numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class.

"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area.

"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he was the bottom portion of the third group in this category.

Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a result of Oswald's308 composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107.

Colonel Folsom. The abbreviation "RCT" is—represents radio code test. There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to 109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group III.

Mr. Ely. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial, and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about one sentence which to me seems to be in error.

According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title "Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be remitted without further action."

However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June 27, 1958."

So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is that the suspension of the sentence was vacated?

However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry.

So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated.

Mr. Ely. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial?

Colonel Folsom. Well, that portion of it—unexecuted portion of the first sentence.

On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of" Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found not guilty?

Mr. Ely. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II, which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him.

Mr. Ely. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958, indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour had been received and approved.

Colonel Folsom. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the individual concerned.

309 Mr. Ely. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer than he was scheduled to have been over there?

Mr. Ely. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958.

Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for this cancellation was?

Colonel Folsom. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a result of the disciplinary action.

Mr. Ely. So we might guess that because this followed his second court-martial, that was the reason?

Mr. Ely. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to ask you about only one entry here—actually it is two entries relating to one event.

On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro from Yuma.

Colonel Folsom. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS, El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense exercise, the first one held during 1959.

Mr. Ely. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in the Marine Corps.

It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career, private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your E-4 is a corporal?

Mr. Ely. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What does that stand for?

Colonel Folsom. Confined, serving sentence—it should be summary court-martial, but let me look at the record.

Colonel Folsom. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a special in here.

Mr. Ely. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a document relating to the high school level general educational development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page 106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests, and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile.

However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was tested were. Could you tell us what they are?

Colonel Folsom. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One, English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences; four, physical sciences; five, mathematics.

Mr. Ely. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet?

Colonel Folsom. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in which it appears on the report.

Mr. Ely. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald received a rating of satisfactory?

Colonel Folsom. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the lower right-hand corner.

Colonel Folsom. Well, they have two passing ones—satisfactory, and "D" with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory.

Mr. Ely. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of these numbers insofar as you can?

Colonel Folsom. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics, two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and 54 on the second.

Mr. Ely. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are on a scale of 100?

Colonel Folsom. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score.

Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous test carried out to three digits without the decimal point.

Colonel Folsom. That is correct. This report was prepared on an electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret.

Mr. Ely. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the individual scores.

Mr. Ely. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have explained the principle by which the scores are recorded.

Colonel Folsom. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT".

Colonel Folsom. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery, and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation is quite close.

The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column indicates the number of years of schooling—in this case, nine.

Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated Exhibit 239.

Colonel Folsom. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1.

Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification.

They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is, he may—this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired.

Mr. Ely. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will do well on his record firing?

Colonel Folsom. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even on the day that he fires for record.

311 In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the purpose for which it was designed.

Mr. Ely. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel Folsom. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at 200 yards slow fire—on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand position——

Mr. Ely. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in Oswald's scorebook?

Colonel Folsom. Right—well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them—all 10 shots within the four ring.

Mr. Ely. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than that if he were a good shot?

Colonel Folsom. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position.

Colonel Folsom. Well, total shown on page 22 would be—he got a score of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his record book.

I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his career he was not a particularly outstanding shot.

Colonel Folsom. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates—as a matter of fact—that he did well at one or two ranges in order to achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter.

Mr. Ely. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you about the ones that seemed most confusing to me.

Colonel Folsom. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic copy contains everything that is in the original record.

And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary court-martial records.

Mr. Ely. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention during your testimony today?

In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN

The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

Mr. Ely. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony.

However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

Captain Donabedian. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. Ely. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Ely. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald—in other words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the man.

Mr. Ely. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)

Captain Donabedian. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance, and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the inoculations he receives.

Mr. Ely. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document, Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1 runs from 132 through 171.

Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147 of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958.

Captain Donabedian. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown and very hard. Examination."

Captain Donabedian. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave him treatment with mineral oil.

Mr. Ely. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we just referred, and that is the entry dated——

Captain Donabedian. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on 10-13-58.

Captain Donabedian. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding.

Mr. Ely. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through 156 of this exhibit.

Captain Donabedian. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has urethral discharge."

Captain Donabedian. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present.

And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug of choice.

On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear taken.

September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to the lab for a smear.

And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci."

Captain Donabedian. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this germ—since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it.

And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like 400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear."

Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago."

In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture.

Captain Donabedian. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it says "September 23" underneath—"urethral discharge, smear and culture."

The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that gives a dark-greenish color discharge.

Mr. Ely. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can we tell?

Mr. Ely. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear rather than a culture?

314 Captain Donabedian. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a smear, and they find that—intra and extracellular diplococci, they treat the patient for gonorrhea.

Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given. And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is. Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given.

On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. And that was—"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were noted."

The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To repeat smear, 1 week."

October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive cocci."

This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has been doing heavy lifting recently."

"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the urination"—although this says dysurea—"has been doing heavy lifting recently."

October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave him pyridium, one tablet five times a day—one gram five times a day.

"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram positive cocci noted."

Captain Donabedian. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list, 9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No. 0303. And in handwriting——

Captain Donabedian. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging sensation on urination. Past history—previous venereal disease. Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling gonorrhea."

Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not absolutely be certain.

Mr. Ely. You mentioned that under this previous history column it mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to this time?

Captain Donabedian. At another time, in his past, whenever that would be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different kinds.

Mr. Ely. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to any prior case during his military career?

Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000 units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units.

Mr. Ely. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156 is something of a summary.

Captain Donabedian. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and observation.

Mr. Ely. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a typical case of gonorrhea?

Mr. Ely. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem that he did have gonorrhea at this point?

Mr. Ely. These medical records also contain entries relating to the gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into at this point.

Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned which seems to you extraordinary—anything over and above the normal marine's complaints.

Captain Donabedian. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other infection, otitis media, in 1957.

Mr. Ely. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping to explain these records for us.

AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO

I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957, to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California.

Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train Castro's troops because of the money he would earn.

I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with others.

Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as "Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to "American capitalist warmongers."

At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia.

Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either unironed or sloppily ironed.

As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa Ana.

Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have some of the316 classical records we purchased together. I recall that he particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player, although he was better than I was.

It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him" in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was likely to get better results from him by treating him politely.

I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks.

It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him; for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana. I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out."

Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be intoxicated.

I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall any remarks concerning his religious beliefs.

I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of his receiving any visitors.

AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA

I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the following military installations while we were both members of the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana, California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville, Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in the same unit at that time.

While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks.

Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one person.

Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines. I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post.

Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However, he generally followed such orders.

317 Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe he was intelligent.

I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian. I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors—either the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant—asked Oswald why he read this paper.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women on his part; or of his receiving any visitors.

AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR

I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he wore an expert rifleman's medal.

I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he characterized as the greatest man in history.

Although Oswald engaged in several fights—one of them with a Robert Demurs—I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was.

Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of his superiors with insolent remarks.

I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal, but I do not remember what sort of books he read.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it.

I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his attitude toward women, or what he did off post.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF

I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961. While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon Sergeant.

318 Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing to listen to the views of others.

Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around."

Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or opposing capitalism.

It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly.

It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in the "high expert" range.

Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper—if indeed he had a temper—in check.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any dates.

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL

I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of authority.

While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as "Hidell"—pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name.

Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or international affairs.

While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care whether or not he got back to the post on time.

Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines.

Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know what his activities off post were.

Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, I am unable to remember Oswald's being there.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on May 15, 1964.

I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts.

Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual.

Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine did. He was a person who was never satisfied with any event or situation. He was quietly sarcastic. Though he tried to be witty, in my opinion his attempts at humor failed. However, he—unlike Delgado—was not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention.

I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college education. I am under the impression that he told me that he was a college graduate, but I may have come to this conclusion because he once spoke to me of going to Officer Candidate School.

Oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. When I knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this.

I do not recall Oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. Nor do I recall his drinking. Although I do not remember his getting into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which would be likely to involve him in fights. I do not remember his studying either Spanish or German.

Although I recall that Oswald read a great deal, I do not remember what sort of books he read. He played chess a good deal, particularly with Richard Call. I have no recollection of his enjoying music. Nor do I remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a Russian newspaper.

Most of his fellow Marines called Oswald "Lee." I do not remember his being called "Oz".

AFFIDAVIT OF PAUL EDWARD MURPHY

I, Paul Edward Murphy, 1706 South Evergreen Street, Apartment C, Santa Ana, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

320 That I served in the United States Marine Corps from June, 1956, to September, 1959. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, and thereafter at Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

The unit which was stationed at Atsugi spent four to six weeks in Okinawa late in 1957. It also spent some time in the Philippines, where it was at times at bases at Subic Bay and Cubi Point. Another trip took it to Corregidor.

Oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. He complained about orders he had received from superiors, but followed them.

Although Oswald did not normally expound to me his political or ideological views, I am of the opinion that he was generally in sympathy with Castro.

One night in the barracks in Japan, I heard a shot in an adjoining cubicle. I rushed into the cubicle to find Oswald sitting on a foot locker looking at a wound in his arm. When I asked what had happened, Oswald very unemotionally replied, "I believe I shot myself". Oswald was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was not authorized to possess.

While at Santa Ana, Oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed in English which I believe was titled either "The Worker" or "The Socialist Worker." Members of the unit saw copies of this paper as they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as being directed to Oswald, few were surprised. I do not recall Oswald's receiving other literature of a Socialist nature.

I remember that Oswald could speak a little Russian, even when he was overseas. I have no recollection of his studying either Spanish or German.

Oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. He was, however, personally quite neat.

Although Oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. His temperament was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight.

It is my opinion that Oswald was of average intelligence. He read a great deal at the library at Atsugi. I do not recall what sort of books he read. He also went to the movies a great deal. I have no specific recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although I remember that Oswald—like everyone else—watched Dick Clark's American Bandstand on television. Oswald also played chess.

I can recall Oswald having no dates while stationed at Santa Ana. While overseas, however, Oswald had an active social life as most other Marines. Oswald seldom left the post at Santa Ana; I do not know where he went on those occasions when he did leave.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harvey" after "Harvey the Rabbit", a movie which was then circulating. So far as I know, Oswald acquired this nickname for no reason other than that it was his middle name.

AFFIDAVIT OF HENRY J. ROUSSEL, JR.

I, Henry J. Roussel, Jr., 2172 Elissalde Street, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while in the United States Marine Corps I served for approximately321 three or four months with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 in Santa Ana, California.

On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's study of the Russian language. I also arranged a date for my aunt with Lieutenant John E. Donovan. I am under the impression that prior to studying Russian, Oswald had studied German.

I recall no serious political remarks on the part of Oswald. On occasion, however, Oswald, when addressing other Marines, would refer to them as "Comrade." It seemed to me—and, as far as I know, to my fellow Marines—that Oswald used this term in fun. At times some of us responded by calling him "Comrade." Oswald also enjoyed listening to recordings of Russian songs.

My recollection of Oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite neat, and that he stayed to himself. Oswald complained about orders that he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. I regarded Oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught himself two foreign languages. I do not recall Oswald's having any dates other than the one which I arranged for him with my aunt.

I do not remember Oswald's getting into any fights. I have no recollection concerning Oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or trips off the post. I do not remember his reading a Russian newspaper, and do not recall his having any nicknames. (I was nicknamed "Beezer.") I do not remember Oswald's having his name written in Russian on his jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by Oswald.

AFFIDAVIT OF MACK OSBORNE

I, Mack Osborne, 2816 43rd Street, Lubbock, Texas, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. Prior to his discharge, I shared a room with him.

Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian—which I believe he bought in Los Angeles—with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe he also had some books written in Russian, although I do not remember their names.

I once asked Oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other men. He replied that he was saving his money, making some statement to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him famous. In retrospect, it is my belief—although he said nothing to this effect—that he had his trip to Russia in mind when he made this statement.

Although Oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow Marines.

My recollection is that Oswald was a radar operator of average ability. Although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks inspections.

Although Oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow Marines, when they asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating that he had something else to do. He thereby encouraged others to leave him alone.

322 Oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. He explained to me that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in Japan, he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. I do not recall his having any fights while at Santa Ana. However, I remember Oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as of the fight with the sergeant, in Japan.

I do not recall Oswald's studying either Spanish or German. I do not recall any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba. Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he took such accusations in fun.

Although I did not regard Oswald as particularly intelligent, I got the idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest to others that he was.

Oswald read a great deal, although I do not remember what sort of books he read. He also watched television and played chess. I have no recollection of any interest in music on his part. Although he would discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions.

Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. I suspect that this was part of his program on saving money. He seldom left the post, although sometimes when I returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had been to Los Angeles—implying that he had simply gone to break the monotony.

I do not recall Oswald's having any nicknames. He was simply called "Oswald" or—by those who knew him well—"Lee Harvey".

AFFIDAVIT OF RICHARD DENNIS CALL

I, Richard Dennis Call, R. D. 1, Hellertown, Pennsylvania, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from September, 1956, to December, 1959. From December, 1958, to December, 1959, I was stationed with Marine Air Control Squadron #9, Lighter Than Air Station, Santa Ana, California. During this time I made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald. I lived in the ensign hut next to, and was on the same radar crew as, Oswald. I estimate that I talked to some extent with Oswald each day during the period that we were stationed together.

It was very difficult to evaluate Oswald's personality because he never talked about his life prior to joining the Marine Corps or about what he did while in the Marine Corps. Although by the usual standards I was just an acquaintance of Oswald, I probably was one of his best friends.

Oswald spent a great deal of time reading. I do not remember what he read, because he never talked about it. He also spent a great deal of time playing chess. I played chess with him about once a week; we were of approximately equal ability.

Although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, Oswald seldom, if ever, participated.

During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. At that time I had a phonograph record of Russian classical323 pieces entitled "Russian Fireworks." When I would play this record, Oswald would come over to me and say "You called?" I had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; Oswald always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that he preferred the "Red Army." In connection with this general joking about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed "Oswaldskovich." However, I do not recall Oswald's making serious remarks with regard to the Soviet Union or Cuba.

On one occasion, Oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a scholarship to Albert Schweitzer University and that he planned to attend, remarking that they taught English at Schweitzer.

I believe Oswald generally remained on the post; I do not remember anyone's going on liberty with him. Sometimes he and I went to the base movie theatre.

Oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well as the average radar operator.

Although I sometimes observed Oswald drinking in the Enlisted Men's Club, I do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated.

Oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than did the average Marine. However, it was my opinion that the Staff Non-Commissioned Officers did not think of Oswald as capable. In my opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that Oswald did not try to hide his lack of enthusiasm.

It was difficult to tell how intelligent Oswald was, because of his refusal to communicate. It was clear, however, that Oswald wanted to be thought of as intelligent.

Nelson Delgado was at this time devoutly religious. Another Marine from California, who at that time was interested in Zen Buddhism, had an idol of Buddha solely for the purpose of making Delgado angry. He succeeded in this attempt. Oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to anger Delgado.

Oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the unit; we had not known of it long in advance. I have no recollection of Oswald's receiving any visitors.

AFFIDAVIT OF ERWIN DONALD LEWIS

I, Erwin Donald Lewis, 9682 Mystic Lane, Anaheim, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That while I was in the United States Marine Corps, I served in Marine Air Control Squadron #9 in Santa Ana, California, with Lee Harvey Oswald. I knew him only casually as a working acquaintance.

Oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did not appear to have any close friends. To the best of my knowledge, he seldom left the base.

It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he could read, write, and speak Russian.

I know from personal observation that he read the "Daily Worker." I heard—although of this I am not completely certain—that he had a subscription to that publication.

TESTIMONY OF MARTIN ISAACS

The testimony of Martin Isaacs was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Martin Isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission has also established rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the Executive order and joint resolution to which I referred, as well as with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony.

Under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to appear and give testimony. I don't know whether you actually received 3 days' notice or not, but——

Mr. Liebeler. Each witness is able to waive that notice, and I presume that you do wish to waive it.

We want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which you or your office may have had with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family upon Oswald's return from Russia in approximately June of 1962.

Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. Isaacs. I am employed by the Special Services Welfare Center, Department of Welfare, City of New York, 42 Franklin Street.

Mr. Isaacs. My father became a citizen, and, of course, I received derivative citizenship.

Mr. Liebeler. And this is the Department of Welfare of the City of New York; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall personally coming into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his family?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you give us the best recollection that you have concerning that event?

Mr. Isaacs. I was told by our intake, I believe it was, that the family was in325 the Welfare Center. If I recollect correctly, I think the Travelers Aid Society sent them here. I am not positive about this.

My worker, Mr. Lehrman, as I remember, was not available at the time to go in and see the family. I believe he was in the field at the time. He is a social investigator in the Department of Welfare. I went in to ascertain whether I could expedite getting the information that would be needed to help this family return to Texas.

Mr. Liebeler. You had been informed at that time that they desired to return to Texas?

Mr. Isaacs. Yes; the intake worker, I can't remember who it was at the moment—I am sorry, I don't remember the name of the worker who handled the family inside of our intake—told us that this family was in the office, and I think we obtained sufficient information at the time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a repatriated family.

In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner.

Mr. Isaacs. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself there, and so they go—either they go directly to our Embassy in the country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the role that I played in this as I remember—using my memory here——

Mr. Liebeler. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go into that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family was a repatriated family?

Mr. Isaacs. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned.

When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr. Isaacs. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were.

Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get enough information in our application blank to show that there was a brother—I believe it was Robert—who lived in Texas, and I made a telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with his wife—I don't remember her first name—and I told her that Mr. Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived already—evidently they had some advance notice—and she immediately said she will call326 her husband and make arrangements to send this money—I don't remember the amount that was involved.

Mr. Isaacs. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it in their presence.

Now, when I got this information, and she told me—her name was also Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say—she told me that this money would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had with Mr. Oswald. I—excuse me——

Mr. Liebeler. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and spoke to his wife?

Mr. Liebeler. And she told you that she would call her husband and find out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back?

Mr. Isaacs. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back.

In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in and told the Oswalds about this—Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak English—at that time.

Mr. Isaacs. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet these expenses, if they can.

Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and asking for the money.

Mr. Isaacs. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got his—the brother's name and address, whatever other information they usually get about relatives.

Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and somebody—someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are requesting to return to.

Mr. Isaacs. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. Oswald herself.

I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, although I don't know just what had transpired between them.

Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.

327 Mr. Liebeler. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on that subject yourself?

Mr. Isaacs. I had no conversation with him—my conversation with him was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember it.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?

Mr. Isaacs. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could be made for his return the next day.

Mr. Liebeler. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York overnight that night?

Mr. Isaacs. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I believe it was.

Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at the hotel, as I recall it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?

Mr. Isaacs. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the next day, do you remember?

Mr. Isaacs. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall that at all, sir.

Mr. Liebeler. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on one day?

Mr. Isaacs. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.

Mr. Liebeler. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?

Mr. Liebeler. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his return from Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection with this matter?

Mr. Liebeler. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like that to the FBI agent?

Mr. Isaacs. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated around in the office, but I don't recall having—I did not speak with Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.

328 Mr. Liebeler. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that Oswald had said that?

Mr. Liebeler. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as this to the intake worker when he came into the office?

Mr. Liebeler. Had you heard in the office that he had made that statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the office, that Oswald——

Mr. Isaacs. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as I remember it.

Mr. Liebeler. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.

(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked Exhibit 1.)

Mr. Liebeler. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared at a time when a client appears in your office?

Mr. Liebeler. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually filled out by an applicant.

Mr. Isaacs. What happens is that the original goes to the resource consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.

Mr. Liebeler. The original of that would have been filed in the records of the resource consultant; is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald case?

Mr. Liebeler. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.

Mr. Liebeler. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize that, do you not?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact that you had with him that you haven't told us about?

Mr. Isaacs. There was nothing else that I could remember that was different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner—the Federal Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all expenses—we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring it to the attention of the administrator.

But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator—we assigned a worker—it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some other worker—to just go with them to the hotel and help them along with their luggage, et cetera.

The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking his wife into the office—the clients very rarely go into the interior of the office—and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office that's over a block long—or a block long—and later I learned that she brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child and——

Mr. Liebeler. So the administrator took her back into the office? To feed the child?

Mr. Liebeler. What prompted you to call this case to the attention of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?

Mr. Isaacs. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather severe in his manner—for want of a better description at this time. He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that he take it until—rather accept the decision until I cleared with the administrator.

Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his—I assume because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we used.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any other information in respect of this incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this report?

Mr. Isaacs. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that the—the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen the picture on the screen and was horrified—well, we were horrified without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.

At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this Lee330 Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is her—the field supervisor, and they said that—Mrs. Ruscoll said that she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped to return to Texas, and it was that—I think it was that telephone conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out of central office, and she—the case was no longer there, and she gave it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the FBI.

Now, beyond that, I really—I wish I could be more helpful, but I am sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.

Mr. Liebeler. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We appreciate it very much.

TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES

The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Bates. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional—I have been. My name is Pauline.

Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized by the Commission to depose you—take your deposition, make inquiries of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the Commission.

Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission?

Mr. Jenner. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number 11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the Rules of Procedure of the Commission?

Mr. Jenner. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, and any contacts on your part with any of the parties.

We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes of his?

331 Mr. Jenner. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed them from longhand into typing?

Mrs. Bates. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen.

Mrs. Bates. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper—whatever he could find.

Mr. Jenner. And is there a difference between being a legal public stenographer and a public stenographer?

Mrs. Bates. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth that has legal training.

Mr. Jenner. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law work?

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh—well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have done work for court reporters—transcribe for them, and things like that.

Mr. Jenner. And what was your business or occupation when you were in Oakland, Calif.?

Mr. Jenner. That has always been your—insofar as you have had a business or occupation—it's been that?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going too far.

During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that acquaintanceship arose.

Mrs. Bates. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one in the public stenographers.

Mrs. Bates. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type jacket—a dark blazer-type jacket.

Mrs. Bates. It was in the morning. Let's see—I turned those records over to the FBI.

Mrs. Bates. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on the 18th of June 1962.

Mrs. Bates. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, "Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was—that he was—then, he told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price.

Mrs. Bates. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size—oh, I think it was 10 by 14 or something—one of those large ones. And he said, "I have some notes here"——

Mr. Jenner. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]—it's 15 inches.

Mrs. Bates. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time to, you know, send abstracts out in.

Mrs. Bates. Well, I am sure, as I remember it—of course, now, this was some time ago—it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15—and it looks like what I use.

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are Carrollton Clasp or something like that.

He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?"

He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin.

And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil."

He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." So, we agreed that I would do it—but I hadn't seen them yet.

Mr. Jenner. What agreement—you mean that you agreed that you would do it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate?

333 Mrs. Bates. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious to get on it.

Mrs. Bates. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he had—he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I thought he was just a kid.

And then I started asking him some questions—"Why did you go to Russia?"—and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some of em he wouldn't.

Mr. Jenner. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was said on that occasion.

Mrs. Bates. We agreed that I would start typing the notes—and he wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon—he wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him.

Mrs. Bates. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, "It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?"

And he said he had just gotten—he had gotten out of the Marine Corps and had taken elementary Russian—a course in elementary Russian.

Mrs. Bates. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily.

Mrs. Bates. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange student—if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes—I didn't know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that.

He said, "No"—that the State Department finally agreed to let him go over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him in case he got in trouble or anything.

And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia.

Mrs. Bates. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia.

Mrs. Bates. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time——

Mrs. Bates. I worked. And—uh—I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, single-spaced.

Mr. Jenner. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were having some trouble interpreting these notes?

Mrs. Bates. Oh, he'd—he had to spell things out for me and—uh—it was partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it—I mean, translate it for me. And—uh—it was—uh—very difficult to read. A lot of it was scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on it—he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word phonetically surreptiously], he just had to do it when Marina would cover for him while he was doing this.

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh—muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so people wouldn't know that he was—what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to you, that he was making these notes?

Mrs. Bates. Well, evidently—because he said she would cover or watch for him so that nobody would know that he was making them.

Mrs. Bates. Kind of—try to steer anybody away while he was doing this—because he could have got in trouble.

Mrs. Bates. He didn't talk very much. He—well, there wasn't much time to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. And he was very cool and——

Mrs. Bates. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question—if you asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to answer it, he'd just shut up.

He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have lived out in that part of town."

So—that's—that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing else to say. In other words—"Just don't say anything more."

And—uh—I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife—said she liked it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it was too rich.

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, because they hadn't had enough food in a long time.

Mr. Jenner. Well, he arrived June 12—so, he was only—when he reached your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days.

It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort Worth papers which witness brought with her].

Mrs. Bates. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that goes. But335 these notes, it was—uh—the terrible living conditions and the terrible working conditions and—uh—he did say, "Anything you hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These May Day celebrations—yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after dark."

And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once mentioned the word "Communist."

And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because there was always a party person around and he'd report you.

Mrs. Bates. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the translation and the notes—to read them.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to become a citizen of Russia?

Mrs. Bates. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said that he was very bitter about—he went over there on a 2-year visa and, of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go ahead and we'll send her to you."

So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so much cain until they finally let him.

Mrs. Bates. He wouldn't leave—his visa was out but he wouldn't leave until they let her go.

Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the Government of the United States?

Mr. Jenner. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward the United States?

Mrs. Bates. No; I've thought and thought—and, of course, I've been asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got 10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't talk—except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into detail on them. Conversations—he had actual conversations that he had had with different people over there.

Mrs. Bates. If you could find those notes, I tell you—they were fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"—was what it was. And they were coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence according to city and dates and things like that.

Mrs. Bates. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but it's——

Mrs. Bates. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was—uh—quite nervous. Uh—the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk and—uh—if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting to know where I was—and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, "Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I can't let you go on."

And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he could pay me.

And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a $10 bill out of his pocket and walked out.

Mr. Jenner. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or did he take them back with him at night?

Mrs. Bates. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed—even the carbon paper.

He did tell me that—I think it was the second day—that there was a man in Fort Worth—and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember—I just saw the letterhead for a minute—that was interested in having these notes put into book form—manuscript form.

Mrs. Bates. No. Uh—I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it didn't register with me.

Mrs. Bates. He said he was an engineer—he told me that. But there's lots of engineers in——

Mrs. Bates. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the man was willing to—uh—wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me.

Mr. Jenner. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had read all the notes.

Mrs. Bates. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes."

And I just—uh—the next day when he came up was when he was real nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong.

Mrs. Bates. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw.

Mrs. Bates. That—uh—she loved America and had wanted to come and that she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and stay. And that she—uh—couldn't get over walking down the streets, and the shops—and that New York had just astounded her.

And—uh—he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had a child.

Mr. Jenner. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point at which he had married Marina?

Mr. Jenner. What impression do you have as to the period of time in Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed?

Mrs. Bates. Well, it was on Minsk and—uh—that one that starts with "K"—two cities—and he must have been on them for the whole time he was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could get the time and get away from people.

And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together in just a few months. It was too detailed.

Mrs. Bates. About—from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, really, because they were all sizes—the paper was.

Mrs. Bates. I wish I could remember more about them but—uh—I think my legal training came forth there—you forget things deliberately when you're not suppose to remember things.

Mrs. Bates. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia and the terrible working conditions.

They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing].

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final edition.

Mrs. Bates. Well, after I—uh—after he left, a short time afterward, Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press.

And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, "By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be able to help him."

So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave me—was the telephone number—his brother's telephone number.

338 I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he was real worried about it, because he needed one.

Mrs. Bates. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help him find a job.

Mrs. Bates. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home several times—oh, I think, two or three times, she said—one of the reporters did.

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh; he was still out—I guess he was still out there—but there was never anybody at home when they went out there.

Mrs. Bates. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could have shaken hands with him—and it was a terrible shock—until Caroline called me.

And wondered, she said—I was out at my club—and she said, "Have you seen any television or listened to any radios?"

Mr. Jenner. And the person you saw on television—this would be the night of the assassination?

Mr. Jenner. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee Oswald——

Mrs. Bates. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone would—you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew that's who it was.

That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was perusing again].

Mr. Jenner. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and talked with you?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see—Thanksgiving was the following week?

I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do."

Mrs. Bates. Because he hadn't been—he had not been—uh—charged then even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up.

339 Mrs. Bates. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all Wednesday afternoon and talked. So—it wasn't any spur of the moment thing.

Mrs. Bates. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 days he was in my office—and that was a little difficult to do because of all the things that happened since.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time forward—that is, the 20th of June, 1962?

Mrs. Bates. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into this—uh—variety store—Green's, or Grant's, I think it is.

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. She told me not to talk to anybody until I had talked to her. I said, "Well, I'm sorry, Mrs. Oswald, you're too late." She said, "That is not the property—that is my property."

Mrs. Bates. She said, "I knew that Lee had had a public stenographer do some work but I never could find out who." And I said, "Mrs. Oswald, I didn't even know he had a mother in Fort Worth. He never spoke of her." She said, "Well, don't talk to anyone until I have talked to you." I said, "Well, you're just a little bit too late."

Mr. Jenner. I am going to show you pages 148 through 157 of a bound document on the cover of which appears the title, "Affidavits and Statements Taken In Connection With the Assassination Of The President." These pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be some manuscript notes. Are you familiar with the handwriting of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. As you look at those documents—would you leaf through all the pages I have mentioned?

Mrs. Bates. Yes [complying]. It would be pretty hard—oh! wait a minute! wait a minute!

Mr. Jenner. This is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that material?

Mr. Jenner. Were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the punched, ring book paper?

Mr. Jenner. And were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled left-hand margin?

Mr. Jenner. Well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of that character?

Mr. Jenner. Now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with the handwriting of Lee Oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, when you transcribed his notes for 3 days?

Mr. Jenner. The witness is referring to page 149 which seems particularly to attract her attention. The head of that is "Resident of U.S.S.R." Does that page awaken your recollection?

Mr. Jenner. That [reading from notes] "I lived in Moscow from October 16, 1959, to January 4, 1960, during which time I stayed at the Berlin and Metropole Hotel"?

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. That is as I remember—as I can remember—and that's all I can do, my recollection is that that's the way they started out—just like a story.

Mr. Jenner. Would you go through those pages and see if you recognize any other of the story type of thing?

Mrs. Bates. [Complying.] Uh-huh. It was strictly Russian—on Russia—his trip to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. And, at that time, he had just returned from Russia and it would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes deal with his subsequent residence in the United States?

Mrs. Bates. Uh-huh. I mean, I had never heard of the man before and I didn't hear of him afterwards.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the story in The Fort Worth Press—front page story in The Fort Worth Press of Friday, November 29, 1963, volume 48, No. 50, final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and which is marked Bates Exhibit No. 1 and is offered in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. That was written by Miss Caroline Hamilton, Press staff writer, as you have described?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything in the story that you would like to amend or correct?

Mrs. Bates. And we did it very carefully to make it all—so we wouldn't get the past and the present mixed up. We kept it to the 3 days.

Mrs. Bates. Well, they didn't interview me the second time really. They just—uh—I had received a letter, I think it was, that I turned over to them.

Mrs. Bates. It was the following Saturday after the story broke. Saturday the 30th of November. Yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall saying to the FBI men who interviewed you that the story was accurate——

Mr. Jenner. In every detail, with one exception—which was that Lee Oswald never stated that he was working for the U.S. State Department.

Mrs. Bates. That was what—the radio and television was trying to put words in my mouth at that time. And—uh—I don't know how many times I had to call and tell them to retract that. I never stated that. I stated that when he first said that he went to Russia and had gotten a visa that I thought—it was just a thought—that maybe he was going over under the auspices of the State Department—as a student or something.

If you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the weekend. I had to get them to retract—according to the Associated Press Monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to my house over the weekend and interviewed me—and I was on my way to Washington Monday!

Mrs. Bates. And asked me about it and I said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

And I said, "Well, you'd better do something about it. That's not true. And I certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people."

Mr. Jenner. I think some one of the young men around here told me that—but I put no stock in it, so——

Mrs. Bates. Well, I didn't know anything about it. I don't have a telephone at home. I had it taken out. And there wasn't any way anybody could contact me. I did get my letter Friday. But that's all. Well, they had me on the plane Monday to Washington! [laughing]. That's the press.

Mr. Jenner. They try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit it one out of three times.

Mrs. Bates. Well, anyhow, The Star Telegram took care of it. They said that I had gotten the letter—that they understood I had gotten the letter and I would be called as a witness—and that was it.

I told them—I said, "You'd better get that off the wires because it's not true—and I'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything like that. No one has contacted me except by letter." But they were putting all kinds of words in my mouth.

Mrs. Bates. No; I don't have a phone at home. And I was home very ill with bursitis.

Mrs. Bates. But, all this stuff about the Secret Service, I mean, that's strictly radio and television and reporters. The UP and the Associated Press drove me crazy calling me at 2 and 3 in the morning—"Mrs. Bates, can't you add342 something?"—"Can't you remember something else?"—"Well, can't you elaborate?" Well, I had one stock answer: "You cannot elaborate on the truth."

Mrs. Bates. And that's all I could remember. I didn't know the man; I could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. And that's all I knew about it. "Well, can't you elaborate?"—you can't elaborate on the truth.

Mr. Jenner. No; that's right. Does anything occur to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission about which I haven't asked you—insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned?

Mrs. Bates. I don't know. I can't think of another thing. And I do have to keep from giving impressions I've got now.

Mrs. Bates. Because I don't know anything about the man except what I have read—since then. And I cannot make statements on my opinions or things like that. I don't believe in it.

Mrs. Bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during which we have had some conversations. Is there anything that occurred during the course of those asides that I had with you that you think I have failed to bring out—that's pertinent here?

Mrs. Bates. No, sir; I think everything is down. In fact, we quit talking when she was changing the tape—except for a cigarette, or something like that.

Mr. Jenner. So do we. But all we can do is to try to delve into this great mystery.

Mrs. Bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your deposition when it's been transcribed.

Mr. Jenner. And to make any additions or corrections you see fit to make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. You also have the right to waive these privileges if you see fit.

If you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, I think, be ready along about Wednesday of next week, a week from today. If you will call in, if I'm not in—we expect to be here—but if I'm not in, talk to the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders.

Mrs. Bates. That's long distance. I live in Fort Worth. Could you get a'hold of Agent Howard?

Mr. Jenner. Agent Howard? Well, we cannot let the deposition out of our possession.

Mrs. Bates. No, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? He's the one that brought me over and he's waiting for me.

Mr. Jenner. Because I have a hundred things to think about and I probably won't think about it.

Mr. Jenner. The rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular rates are. So, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your privilege.

Mrs. Bates. Well, I'll ask Mr. Sansom—he's a very prominent lawyer over there—and he said he wanted a copy of it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. If you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one.

Mr. Jenner. Not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy to anybody—other than yourself.

Mr. Jenner. You may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement with the reporter.

TESTIMONY OF MAX E. CLARK

The testimony of Max E. Clark was taken at 2:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please, I will place you under oath.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Clark, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you I would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. I presume you did receive those documents with that letter, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. I want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, your knowledge of Lee Oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called Russian community here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and, two, to some extent, I want to ask you about your knowledge of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Clark. No, I am licensed to practice in the Federal courts and American Bar Association.

Mr. Liebeler. That's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a native-born American, Mr. Clark?

Mr. Clark. Well, I attended public high schools in Fort Worth, graduated and went to T.C.U., University of Texas, 1 year in the University of Arizona and received my law degree at the University of Texas.

Mr. Liebeler. Your wife, I understand, was born in France and her parents were born in Russia, is that correct?

Mr. Clark. My wife was born in France; her father is Russian and her mother is English and Russian. I know her father was born in Russia but I am not certain whether her mother was born in Russia or England because they alternated back and forth so I really don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us in your words the background leading up to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met him, approximately when?

Mr. Clark. We first became aware of Oswald when we noticed in the newspaper in Fort Worth that Lee Oswald, a defector, had returned to Fort Worth with this Russian wife and very shortly after, I noticed it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone call from Oswald stating that he was there and he understood she spoke Russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking Russian from someone from the Texas Employment Commission and she said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some Russian and I was at my office and we would either call—or we would call him that weekend so she discussed it with me when I came home and on a Sunday following that, why, I told her "Well, might as well call if the girl spoke Russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well call her; and so she placed the call to Oswald's brother, I believe is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with Oswald and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt.

Mr. Liebeler. This first attempt of Oswald's to contact your wife did he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter?

Mr. Clark. Purely social; his wife could not speak English and she would like to talk to some girl that spoke Russian so we made the offer. We were not about to go out to his house where he was living. If he wanted to see us he could come over there. We felt we had done enough. Shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in France so it had been planned that she would go over there during this operation, so my wife left in July, I believe, or first of August. I have forgotten, of 1962 and was gone 7 weeks or something like that. When she returned to Fort Worth in September or the latter part of September, the Russian group which she keeps rather close contact with—there is not such a large number between Dallas and Fort Worth that they communicate quite freely back and forth—stated that they had met this Marina Oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time and so several of them came over from Fort Worth, I mean from Dallas to Fort Worth and asked my wife to meet them at Oswald's house.

Mr. Clark. I think it was George Bouhe and Anna Meller and I've forgotten but I wasn't present, I don't know, but this is what my wife was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that the Oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met this Marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and she talked with her and Oswald was apparently working because she did not see him and then we had no further contact345 with them or even knew about them until Oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this Marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live with a friend of ours, Elena Hall who at that time was divorced and was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this Marina and the child to live with her awhile. Apparently, Oswald left the city and went to Dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated I don't know because we had heard stories that Oswald had beat her and that it was not going very well, their marriage, and so——

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately when was it that Marina moved in with Elena Hall; do you remember?

Mr. Clark. Some time in October of 1962; the exact date I don't know. I know that she had been over there a few days when Elena Hall had an automobile wreck late one night. We received a phone call from the hospital to pick up this Marina and the baby and take them to the hospital because Elena was under the impression that she had killed the baby or Marina in the car wreck. She thought that they were involved.

Mr. Clark. No; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty badly, apparently, during this car wreck. So, we went by to this Elena Hall's house about 10 that night, picking up Marina and the baby and took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given sedatives and—Elena Hall—and I don't know whether she knew any more about it. I did not see her that night.

Mr. Clark. I think so but I am not sure. I know we took them to the hospital and then we took Marina and the baby back to her home, to this Elena Hall's home, and, of course, during—from that period while Elena was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this Marina and buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she could not speak English and had no transportation or any way to get food. So, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her to the grocery or take her food.

Mr. Liebeler. I want to ask some detailed questions about that but before we get into that, so I don't forget, I want to go back. You said Oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the Texas Employment Commission——

Mr. Liebeler. Is that your recollection or in fact, did Oswald tell you that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of Peter Gregory at the Fort Worth Public Library?

Mr. Clark. Of course, I had no communication with Oswald at this time. When he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he had gotten my wife's name and Peter Gregory's name from the employment commission. Now, I could be mistaken but apparently Mr. Gregory and my wife's name were given to him as people that spoke Russian. Of course, we know Mr. Gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, why, my wife—we talked with the Gregorys. Which came first, I do not know. I don't know who saw Oswald first. I believe Mr. Gregory saw them before we did.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know who it was in the Texas Employment Commission that gave Oswald the name of Peter Gregory and your wife?

Mr. Clark. No. I don't but I can understand fairly well, why. My aunt had been employed by the Texas Employment Commission for 20, 25 years up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works there. I know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my sister, and I have talked with her since, and it was not her and she said it could have been any one of several. I was under the impression she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of Smith at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of Smith.

Mr. Liebeler. This is the Texas Employment Commission office in Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Is there just one office of the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth?

346 Mr. Clark. There may be some branches but I don't think so. I think this came out of the main office. Whether he called us or he called the Gregorys first, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. One of the things that the Commission is doing in an attempt to learn as much as we can about Oswald is we are trying to put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the entire time he lived in this country after he returned from Russia. I would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife provided to Marina Oswald while she lived at Elena Hall's house. Do you have knowledge of those things?

Mr. Clark. Actually, it was probably very small because Elena was in the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that time, apparently there was—she bought her some groceries and I do recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. I doubt if it would exceed $10 or $15.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know the only thing that your wife did provide to Marina were these things you described?

Mr. Clark. So, upon—when this Elena was in the hospital my wife would see Marina about every day and I think that one evening during that week, I took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner one night and then on the Sunday following this hospital treatment and while Elena was still in the hospital, Marina asked my wife if we would come over on Sunday afternoon and have some Russian dinner that she would prepare for us and this Elena's ex-husband was coming into town from Odessa and if we would come over there, 3 or 4 o'clock Sunday afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over there and we did and when we got there Oswald was there. That was the first time either my wife or myself had met Oswald; so, we were there, oh, I would say approximately 2 hours. Some time after we arrived then John Hall, as I recall, came in from the hospital. He had been over seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on and then we left rather early in the evening. Well, probably, I don't recall the time but it must have been 7 or 8 o'clock.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever stayed at Elena Hall's home while Elena was in the hospital?

Mr. Clark. I have no way of knowing. I did not think he did. It was under my impression he was in Dallas at the time. In fact, we were quite surprised to see him that Sunday afternoon because we had formed the impression that Marina and he had separated. I don't know definitely because I couldn't talk with Marina. She only spoke Russian at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife have the impression that there had been marital difficulties between the Oswalds at that time?

Mr. Clark. None other than the conversations and the fact that Marina seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there.

Mr. Liebeler. During this time that you and John Hall and your wife and Marina and Oswald were present at Elena Hall's home, did you have a conversation with Oswald?

Mr. Clark. Of course, I was extremely interested in, well, life in Russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was Lee Oswald the defector. He seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. In his opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, "You know who I am?" when he would meet someone347 for the first time, so he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him I asked him why he went to Russia. He said that he was in the Marines and he had read a lot of Karl Marx and he had studied considerably while he was in the Marines and he decided that he would get out of the Marines and he would go to Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he studied Marxism when he was in the Marines?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he had studied the Russian language while in the Marines?

Mr. Clark. He indicated he had because I asked him how he learned to speak Russian and he said he studied while in the Marines and learned a lot more when he went to Russia but apparently, he studied it quite awhile before he left.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or whether this was private effort?

Mr. Clark. He did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the Marines that he went—I said, "How did you get a visa; how did you get to Russia?" He said very simple; he just went down, made application to get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to Russia, and the minute he got to Russia, he went to the American Embassy and told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his passport and he went to see about becoming a Soviet citizen and they told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you why the Russians would not accept him as a Russian citizen?

Mr. Clark. No; he didn't say. He indicated he had to stay there a length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said because he was a marine he got a better apartment. He got an apartment with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little better apartment than the normal working person there.

Mr. Clark. He did and I think it was in Minsk or some place; I don't remember exactly. He told me the name of the town; it was wherever Marina came from. I have forgotten which one it was.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you any more details about his relations with the American Embassy and the Soviet authorities when he first came to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Clark. Nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become a Soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet metal worker.

Mr. Clark. I asked him what it was like working there and he said the closest comparison he could give would be like the Marine Corps. He said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to corporal, sergeant and so forth. He said the higher you went in their jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if he stayed there 5 years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. He said you could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city—I said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. He said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could live and they assigned you an apartment and it348 might take 5 years to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their vacations while he could not. I said, "Well, you were saying everyone got a month's vacation." He said, "That's true, but you had to pay your transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place of employment down to the Black Sea.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Clark. As I recall, between 80 and 90 rubles and he was justifying that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. That's the main things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he received any income from any source other than his job?

Mr. Clark. He said that's all he had and he had written to his mother to get money to come back to the States.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you that he had gone from Minsk to Moscow to talk to the officials at the American Embassy about returning to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you that Marina went from Minsk to Kharkof for a 2- or 3-week vacation after they were married?

Mr. Clark. No; he did not. He said that after they were married that she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and walk around and do some hunting of some kind; I don't know. I didn't pay much attention to him. He said they went out for amusements for walks. I asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go to dances once in awhile. He indicated to me that Marina had to work up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the child but by putting in his application to return to the United States somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. She never returned to work after the birth of the child.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high cost of transportation?

Mr. Clark. Yes; the reason I remember that is I had read an article recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures in Life or Time magazine on the Black Sea, this resort area, and asked him if he had been down there as I heard it was similar to the Riviera in France. He said no, he wanted to go there. I said, "Why didn't you go there during your vacation if you had a month?" He said he couldn't afford it. It would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the transportation. I said, "Isn't housing and food provided?" He said, "Oh, yes; if I could have gotten there I could have a free house but only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down there." He was quite unhappy about it.

Mr. Liebeler. He mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath while most of the other apartments had to share the bath?

Mr. Clark. Yes; I was asking him what the apartments were like. He said most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share that one bath and one kitchen. And the other side of the wing would be a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those apartments was his had a wash basin and private349 stove in there, small apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to use the communal kitchen.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you said that Marina did not go back to work after the baby was born?

Mr. Clark. Yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were allowed so much leave; I think he said 6 weeks before the birth of a child and 4 weeks or something after the birth of the child in which they were not required to work but other than that they worked the whole time.

Mr. Clark. He said they take it to special places that elderly women—they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he express any opinion as to this procedure? Did he think this was a good thing or bad thing?

Mr. Clark. Well, he didn't seem quite—he just took it as a matter of course. He thought that was all right. He didn't have much comment to make on that.

Mr. Liebeler. I am looking at a report of an interview which you gave on about November 29, 1963, to two FBI agents, Mr. Haley and Mr. Madland. Do you remember that?

Mr. Liebeler. This report indicates that you told them at that time that 3 months after Oswald's child was born that his wife did go back to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a government nursery.

Mr. Clark. No; I think maybe Earl must have misunderstood because when the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than 5 months old. I am not sure but the baby was very young and I think Earl might have misunderstood when I said after the mothers returned to work they were placed in a nursery.

Mr. Liebeler. Seems like he might have confused the general proposition with the particular case of the Oswalds.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did Oswald tell you the circumstances under which he met and subsequently married his wife, Marina?

Mr. Clark. Well, I have heard from him and then, of course, I think she told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he met Marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a short time, they got married.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing permission to marry her?

Mr. Clark. He didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a flirt. In other words, she said that she made a practice of going late to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be hot and tired. So, she went late this night, later in the evening, and arrived very fresh and she met Oswald and she thought it was unusual to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an American, so she started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "What did your friends think about you going with an American and marrying an American and coming to the United States?" Marina says "Well, they told me it couldn't be any worse."

Mr. Liebeler. By that she meant the United States couldn't be any worse than the Soviet Union?

Mr. Clark. Couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite happy to get out of there.

350 Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife have the feeling that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?

Mr. Clark. My wife had the impression she thought it was something new and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was—seemed to be as much interested in leaving Russia as staying there.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did Oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?

Mr. Clark. Yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind that he would never get any place in the Soviet Union and that he was disappointed because it was not like Karl Marx or was not true Communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and Marina was to leave so he made application to leave.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember him specifically using the words "make his mark" or is that just an expression of yours?

Mr. Clark. That is my expression but my general impression was he wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what particular circumstances he was in.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the fact that he was a defector and had gone to Russia and you gave the impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this fact and you said, if I recall it, he would say "Well, you know who I am" when you met him. Would you think this would be an example of what you just spoke of?

Mr. Clark. Yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted to stand out. He wanted everybody to know he was the defector.

Mr. Liebeler. And he called attention to that fact to make himself stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to peoples' attention?

Mr. Clark. Yes; I thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to think it made him somebody.

Mr. Clark. Well, he stated while he was in Russia he didn't—he was completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former Marine Corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment than the average sheet metal worker. He was quite proud of the few accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he read very much and how much he had read.

Mr. Clark. Oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything he could about communism, about Karl Marx and that he felt that it was much better than participating in sports. I tried to see if he was interested in sports and he wasn't.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you he was a member of any Communist or Marxist organizations?

Mr. Clark. No; he didn't. We didn't get into any phase of organizations. He was more or less discussing his particular life in Russia and what it was like and I was interested in how he got back and why he decided to come back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining permission to return to the United States?

Mr. Clark. Well, I was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and Marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and I asked him "How did you work that?" He said "Well, we just went down and I made application and she was my wife and the child and told them I wanted to go back to the United States. When I secured the passage" he said, "they okayed it." Said "We left." He didn't seem to think it was unusual. He said that he just happened to ask at the right place is what he indicated to me; said "Maybe these other people hadn't hit at the right time or hadn't approached the right person."

351 Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate the U.S. Government had given him or Marina any difficulty about them returning?

Mr. Clark. None whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not renounced his citizenship. I said "I thought you said you turned in your passport and wanted to become a Soviet citizen?" He said "I did turn in my passport but they didn't make me a Soviet citizen so I did not renounce my citizenship. So when I made application to come back", he said "They couldn't keep me out."

Mr. Liebeler. He ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing of his American citizenship to the refusal of the Russians to make him a citizen?

Mr. Liebeler. He did not mention the U.S. Embassy or Moscow had refused to permit him to return?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate any hostility toward the State Department or Embassy or Moscow?

Mr. Clark. He did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. He just thought everyone was out of step but him. He was rather an arrogant-talking person.

Mr. Liebeler. He did not mention specifically any government official, President Kennedy, Governor Connally?

Mr. Clark. Nothing except he was very unhappy while in the Marine Corps. He didn't like any part of it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did that come up in connection with his comparison of life in the Soviet Union with life in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Clark. I would ask him "How would you classify life in the Soviet Union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether they work or not?" He said just that they have to work. There may be five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put you on; and I said "What prevents everyone from migrating from one place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" He said "It's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of places to live and assignment of apartments."

Mr. Liebeler. He did not mention to you he received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. Clark. I think it was in the paper. I felt pretty sure anyone that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. Liebeler. Did any of the other members or any of the members of the so-called Russian Community in the Dallas-Fort Worth area ever raise with you the question of whether they should associate with Oswald; whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have anything to do with him?

Mr. Clark. I think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked me and I said "In my opinion he is a defector and you know what he is"; I said "You should not hold that against this girl Marina. She's having a hard time. He's beating her up, everything is strange to her, she can't speak the language, I don't think you should ostracize her because of Oswald." Most of them had absolutely no use for Oswald and they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and kicked around by this Oswald without at least trying to look after her. I told them I didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. I said "As far as Oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that when he returned to the United States the FBI has got him tagged and is watching his movements or I would be very much surprised."

Mr. Clark. If they didn't, I said "You know that they know exactly where352 he is in town" and I said "I imagine they know who he is contacting because I know enough about the boys in the FBI; they would keep a record."

Mr. Clark. No; but I worked with them quite a bit when I was in security industrial with General Dynamics; that's when I became acquainted with Earl Haley.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember specifically having a conversation of this sort with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Clark. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know him quite well.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after the assassination?

Mr. Clark. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.

Mr. Clark. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened—that Oswald had done it.

Mr. Clark. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. I know I got the last one.

Mr. Liebeler. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with you, of course?

Mr. Liebeler. If you would look through your records when you go back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters and may want to make them part of this record.

Mr. Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Liebeler. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not think Oswald was the man who did it?

Mr. Clark. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an explorer or pirate or something like that.

Mr. Clark. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.

353 Mr. Clark. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald a real lashing about it.

Mr. Clark. It's bound to have been in—sometime after the first of January, sometime in the spring of 1963.

Mr. Clark. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or 27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.

Mr. Clark. So, getting back to that party—so we didn't go to the party at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of Oswald and threatened him—picked him up by his shirt and shook him like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid another hand on her.

Mr. Clark. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I think it was.

Mr. Liebeler. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?

Mr. Clark. I know one time during that period I think George went to Pennsylvania or New York.

Mr. Clark. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month or maybe more.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?

Mr. Clark. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him shortly before he left for Haiti.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Clark. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked politics.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in connection with the Walker attempt at that time?

Mr. Clark. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only comment we had.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty to the United States?

Mr. Clark. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.

Mr. Liebeler. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was just a "patsy" in the thing?

354 Mr. Clark. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes without even thinking; most of the time he does that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to whether he was mentally unstable or not?

Mr. Clark. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in the world was out of step but himself.

Mr. Clark. Well, I just thought—I didn't think—well, I just felt that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was—didn't seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was a completely shiftless individual.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Clark. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have committed?

Mr. Clark. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.

Mr. Liebeler. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to call attention to himself?

Mr. Clark. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or other.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you now told us everything that you recall about Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what you said, go right ahead.

Mr. Clark. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned with what life was like in Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?

Mr. Clark. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have registered on me.

Mr. Liebeler. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in firearms to you at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might have been a Russian agent?

Mr. Clark. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the ones that355 had lived in the States the longest period of time and couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to be concerned about it because they felt the American government was keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as much as the ones that got out recently.

Mr. Liebeler. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in getting out of Russia, is that correct?

Mr. Clark. Yes; based on the reason the ones—because they had considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?

Mr. Clark. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know there's several others of the younger group that came over.

Mr. Clark. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.

Mr. Clark. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't recall their name.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Clark. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.

Mr. Clark. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off political issues or anything about the United States.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE

The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

356 I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on Oswald's motive.

I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.

Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time?

Mr. Bouhe. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the Commission?

Mr. Liebeler. No. This is in effect your appearance before the Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?

Mr. Bouhe. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last year.

Mr. Bouhe. For 9½ years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.

Mr. Bouhe. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a baptismal certificate showing February 11.

Mr. Bouhe. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.

It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.

The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent357 American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking English, was an office boy.

When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did that lead to your coming to the United States?

Mr. Bouhe. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at night, and it was cold, and got out.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you continue your education when you came to the United States?

Mr. Bouhe. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did there, which is not much.

Mr. Bouhe. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.

Mr. Liebeler. You got your first acquaintance with English through the English governess, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct?

Mr. Bouhe. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us Latin and Greek.

Mr. Liebeler. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us about that?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on.

So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.

In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallas358 from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire.

By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.

It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany—they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.

So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland.

Mr. Liebeler. You gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct?

Mr. Bouhe. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian language was welcome.

The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.

Mr. Liebeler. These people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the English language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient?

Mr. Bouhe. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn English, because I have the great reliance on that.

Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn English? All I want to do is get a job."

Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there.

Mr. Liebeler. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct.

Mr. Bouhe. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.

Mr. Bouhe. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time.

Mr. Bouhe. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, 1962.

Mr. Bouhe. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.

Mr. Bouhe. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.

Mr. Liebeler. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?

Mr. Bouhe. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language.

Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks.

Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the assassination?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 bill—and that information is from the press—and started dictating the book.

Mr. Liebeler. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald with his book?

Mr. Liebeler. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time?

Mr. Bouhe. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.

This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells.

Mr. Bouhe. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I was interested in.

Mr. Bouhe. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad and moved to Minsk?

Mr. Liebeler. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. Petersburg to Minsk?

Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss—let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.

Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Bouhe. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against society.

Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He doesn't like that.

Mr. Bouhe. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he didn't like it.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.

Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Bouhe. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.

But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in Russia?

Mr. Bouhe. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"

I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters?

Mr. Bouhe. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.

Mr. Bouhe. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops—which were famous361 for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on—were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?

Mr. Bouhe. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions.

Mr. Bouhe. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles—and I can't imagine what it is in Minsk when it rains—what about the food?"

In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct?

Mr. Bouhe. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, "90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"

But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I couldn't cross-examine.

Mr. Liebeler. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct?

Mr. Bouhe. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For instance, he had a portable radio.

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone and records.

Mr. Bouhe. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction.

But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. And what she was earning, I do not know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting club in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Bouhe. I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do—"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."

And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".

Mr. Liebeler. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember?

Mr. Bouhe. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no reason to suspect his lying.

Mr. Liebeler. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the Soviet Government?

Mr. Bouhe. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing.

Mr. Bouhe. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the United States."

Mr. Liebeler. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mr. Bouhe. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.

And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?

Mr. Bouhe. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet Union while he was there?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or three different occasions from Minsk?

363 Mr. Bouhe. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy in Moscow at some period of time to return.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?

Mr. Bouhe. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in the Soviet Union, approximately?

Mr. Bouhe. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?

Mr. Liebeler. You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?

Mr. Bouhe. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

Mr. Liebeler. When did you get the impression that he received any special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Bouhe. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke French—well, some from in school and some from governesses and some from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or from factory workers.

Mr. Liebeler. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her education?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good command of the language?

Mr. Bouhe. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.

And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly grammatical—maybe I said, I don't know—correct language.

And she said, "My grandmother who raised me—I don't know what period—she was an educated woman. She went to—and she gave me a school for noble girls." Something like, I don't know—are you a Dallas man—perhaps Bryn Mawr.

Mr. Bouhe. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a young girl, you are polished—Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.

And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. What is in her soul, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?

Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments or amplified them after the event of the assassination.

But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. Bouhe. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.

It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.

Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have to do whatever she could to get out.

Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is of the old school, but I don't know.

And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which presented itself in Minsk.

So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal was or is, I cannot guess even now.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed from her?

Mr. Bouhe. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination occurred?

Mr. Bouhe. I could only add that I probably think her a person of exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I do not volunteer as an expert.

Mr. Liebeler. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's confidence about those matters?

365 Mr. Bouhe. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls.

Mr. Liebeler. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna Meller and Anna Ray.

Mr. Bouhe. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye.

Mr. Bouhe. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house.

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."

Mr. Liebeler. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?

Mr. Bouhe. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"

Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say but "come over."

Mr. Bouhe. I did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and Mrs. Anna Meller drove over with us to Mrs. Katya Ford's, I think, on a Saturday or Sunday, because Mrs. Ford volunteered that since the Meller's had a very small apartment, to take Marina for a week because her husband, Declan P. Ford, was attending the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston for the whole week and she could bring her over for a week.

Mr. Bouhe. I would say October, but I would not swear. Do you know it is November?

Mr. Bouhe. Well then, it was, if Mrs. Ford said so, and the only double check I can make is to check, when was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists Convention in Houston.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't know, but that is a matter that Mrs. Ford can testify. Your recollection was, it would have been in October, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go into that just a little bit. When, according to your recollection, did Oswald move from Fort Worth to Dallas?

366 Mr. Bouhe. All right; I would say on or about—that is Oswald—October 7, 1962.

Mr. Liebeler. What did he say? What were the circumstances of that conversation?

Mr. Bouhe. Well, we were at their house at the end of September or first days of October. Maybe it was—in other words, a few of us were at the house of Oswald on an afternoon. I presume it must have been a Saturday.

Mr. Bouhe. It was probably Mrs. Anna Meller, myself, possibly Mrs. Hall in fact I know—Mrs. Elena Hall of Fort Worth, because I remember distinctly that Lee Oswald came home and said his job had ended, wherever he was working at in Fort Worth, and no prospects for another job existed.

Mr. Bouhe. No. He said it was a temporary job anyway. That he did say. Firing, I never heard. So at that time Mrs. Hall—that Russian lady—said, "My husband is away. Marina, you move over to my house with the kid, and he goes to Dallas to look for a job."

For some reason, I would say it must have been around October 6 or 7. That would be my guess.

Mr. Bouhe. I was a little bit already cautious because his conversation with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. And to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, I guess. And I said, the only way to start here is go to the Texas Employment Commission, which he did.

Mr. Bouhe. I think we asked a lady we knew there—not I, because I didn't know her well enough—to help him if she could to get him a job.

Mr. Bouhe. He told Mrs. Cunningham—he is a Ph. D., a very kind man—he said he didn't know the man from Adam, but he has a wife and a little baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their feet.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn that Oswald subsequently did obtain a job in Dallas?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes, I did. And as a person who at that time suspected nothing except that I had a desire if I could, to put him on his feet economically so he could support his wife and child—I said, now those were my words, "Lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a $1.45 an hour as an apprentice. If you apply yourself"—those were my very words—"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable any place."

Then I added, "Well, I would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement I would ask anybody.

And for 2 or 3—or possibly 5 days thereafter he would call me at 6 o'clock, I guess when he finished his work, and say, "I am doing fine. Bye."

Mr. Liebeler. That would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone?

367 Mr. Bouhe. Wait a second, maybe I did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but I don't know what that means.

Mr. Bouhe. I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, but that I do know.

Mr. Bouhe. At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, "Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the Carlton boarding house?

Mr. Liebeler. The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he had not lived there?

Mr. Bouhe. That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a bum steer.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know, the next place that Oswald lived after he moved out of the YMCA was in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas?

Mr. Bouhe. And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.

Mr. Liebeler. That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.

Mr. Liebeler. At any time after November 1 and prior to December 28, 1962, did you see or talk to Oswald? December 28 is the date of the Ford party.

Mr. Bouhe. I would say that by some unanticipated chance I might have run into him and her or both at the De Mohrenschildt's, but I wouldn't swear. Let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my part.

Mr. Liebeler. You have already testified that you moved her from Anna Meller's to the Ford's house, and that would have been in November of 1962, would it not?

Then maybe I said something that I shouldn't have said. In November I told they moved to Elsbeth. Then a week later she ran to Anna Meller.

Mr. Liebeler. You previously testified that you thought that Marina had lived with the Ford's during October, but now it is a fact, is it not, that when Marina moved to the Fords and when she moved to stay with Anna Meller, she moved from the apartment in Oak Cliff, did she not?

368 Mr. Liebeler. It must have been November because your recollection is she didn't move to the Oak Cliff area until November, is that right?

Mr. Bouhe. I don't remember seeing her during that period of time except in moving her from Mellers to Fords. If I ran into him or her once at the De Mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't see him at anytime when you saw Marina when she was moving from the Mellers to the Fords?

Mr. Liebeler. A few minutes ago I asked you about your judgment of Marina Oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. Would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on Marina Oswald.

Mr. Bouhe. I think she is a well brought up girl. By that I mean, from my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person of the old regime. Religious, well mannered, and such.

She liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that age would, probably, but I think she was also a driver and ambitious about it. Even by looking at her, I would say that in the small size you would not think she would.

And it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting Oswald, coaxing him to come to America, and so as, she told me herself, she could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to America."

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that Marina is a great actress.

Mr. Bouhe. There again she acts so natural that I was disarmed. But at this stage of the game, maybe I was a fool.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any reason to think that prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. But it has entered into your head since the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. But there was nothing about Marina's behavior as you observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that?

Mr. Bouhe. Positively nothing. But we did in the Russian colony have conversations. We were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which Marina left the U.S.S.R., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is almost incredible.

American, British, and other diplomats married Russian girls and it took them years to get their wives out. And at one moment I did ask, I think, both of them.

Mr. Bouhe. Both of them Lee and Marina. "Well, it is certainly unusual that they let you out. How did you do it?"

And they in the office said, "All right, take it away," or something to that effect in Russian.

Mr. Liebeler. Now did you have any discussions with other friends of yours here in Dallas as to whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the U.S.S.R.? And I want you to confine your answer to the time prior to the assassination.

Mr. Bouhe. The majority of our Russian background colony having suffered very much under the Soviet and Hitler rule, even after 10 and 12 or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes from Russia.

Many of them shook heads, saying, well, I don't know, maybe he is a Soviet spy. At least I came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the man came to369 the American Embassy in Moscow asking for the permit to return to his native land. It took 2 years of something to process that application. To me, these 2 years meant that probably it is not only paperwork between the Moscow Embassy and Russia, but probably some investigation.

Therefore, I felt that whatever investigating agency of the United States, whether it is Secret Service, CIA, or anybody else concerned with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good little time of 2 years to process his return back to the United States. That processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them 400 some odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money.

At this point I want to state that when Mr. Gregory invited me to dinner the first time, I checked with Mr. Max Clark as an attorney friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and I am sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? And after a couple of days, I don't remember exactly Mr. Clark's answer, but there were words to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. I think these were the words. Then I accepted the invitation for dinner.

Mr. Liebeler. Now did other members of the Russian colony express to you the thought that Oswald might have been a Russian agent?

Mr. Bouhe. Well, I don't know who said that, but I really don't remember who said that, because there was so much talk. But probably it was mentioned.

Mr. Bouhe. I wish I knew, and if I think, I will tell you, but I don't. And I am not hiding anything.

Mr. Liebeler. You attended a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford on December 28, 1962, did you not? And Mr. and Mrs. Oswald were there, were they not?

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any discussion at that party on the question of whether or not Oswald was or could be a Russian agent?

Mr. Bouhe. That party is very vivid in my memory. All of a sudden toward late in the evening appeared George De Mohrenschildt and his wife, accompanied by Oswald and Marina. I could almost hear a gasp among some of the people who were around me. I can almost for certain say that during that evening until the De Mohrenschildt's took him back home, if I got a human hello from Oswald, that was the extent of my conversation, and I exchanged maybe half a dozen words with Marina who said, "Nice to see you again." I would say that would be the extent of that conversation.

At that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple of drinks and without seeing Oswald talk extensively to anybody except maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a Japanese girl. And if I recall correctly, any time I would look any place, he was with her.

Marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before.

Then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you know, Russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. Oswald, I remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. Marina came finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. "Nice it is here," she said, and that was the end.

Mr. Liebeler. After the Oswalds left, did any of the people at the party discuss the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an agent of the U.S.S.R.?

Mr. Bouhe. No, sir; but I do know that one or two men with whom Oswald spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and I heard him say clearly, "My God, what an idiot that is."

Mr. Liebeler. Did Mr. Aronson speak to Oswald? Is that why he thought Oswald was an idiot?

Mr. Liebeler. After the party at the Fords, there was a get-together at the Mellers residence sometime before that weekend. Were you present at that party?

Mr. Liebeler. I didn't say Oswald was there. But there was a group of people who got together at the Mellers either the next day or the day after?

Mr. Bouhe. I do not recall that. But they are my close friends of a long time and I am almost sure I must have been there.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any discussion at that party about the question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. Liebeler. There was also an open-house at your own apartment during that period of time, was there not?

Mr. Bouhe. I think there were occasional parties. No discussions about Oswald being a Russian agent.

Mr. Bouhe. To the best of my recollection, as far as I am concerned, well, whether others talked, I don't know.

Mr. Bouhe. Well, in the words of Mr. Aronson, I would say that mental case, that means he is crazy. That is what I meant.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember using those words at any time during the period December 28 and the few days following that day?

Mr. Bouhe. That I do not remember, but there is a good Russian word when you act crazy, we say, "My God, you are crazy." But that I do not remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember suggesting to Oswald that he attend some school and study to attempt to improve his ability?

Mr. Bouhe. That was most probably the first week of October when he moved here, October 1962.

And I said, "Crozier Evening Technical School, which is a Dallas Board of Education deal, has 50 subjects for grown-ups to improve their skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to make lampshades."

Mr. Bouhe. I do not. He did not tell me anything, but a Secret Service agent from Los Angeles called me and asked what school could he have gone to, and I said we have only one.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or magazines that Oswald subscribed to in his apartment?

Mr. Bouhe. Certainly I saw a lot of Russian magazines, but whether or not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, I do not know.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the names of any of them? Let me ask you was "Agitator" one of them?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any other Russian periodicals that you saw in Oswald's possession?

Mr. Bouhe. Something about the sports, because you always could see a Russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a periodical called "The Worker"?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have occasion to notice any books on political subjects in Oswald's home?

Mr. Bouhe. Oswald had a little table in his apartment on Mercedes Street in Fort Worth. I cannot remember the exact names, but certainly Karl Marx, Lenin and his works, and similar things which I do not remember. And I positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped over the first two-three pages, and I think in two out of three I saw the stamp of the Fort Worth Public Library.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the fact that these books were in his apartment?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; politics of any kind, or economics? That is, his attitude toward the U.S. Government and toward the Russian government?

Mr. Bouhe. After the first or second visit I saw he was a mixed-up man. I did not touch any of these subjects.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss them with him during the first two or three times that you saw him?

Mr. Bouhe. The only thing I discussed the first two or three times I saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the Soviet Union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is Kleenex and things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the economic system of the U.S.S.R.?

Mr. Bouhe. He was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, "Well, with us in the Soviet Union," meaning some preference, whether it is free rent or free medical care.

For instance, he said, "Marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some place in Moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out but they didn't put another one in." He said, "We didn't have time." Whether that is right or wrong, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought Russia was so good, why didn't he go back?

Mr. Bouhe. I had made well in the United States by sheer work. I have enough to live nicely and help others if I wish.

The sense of charity is very deep in me. Marina and the child, the latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. As I repeated to the FBI and Secret Service many times, while they were not relatives of mine, I still felt that if I enjoy a good automobile and a good meal and if I know around the372 corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the floor, I will not digest that dinner so very good.

So being endowed with what I thought was boundless energy, when I saw the situation, I thought I would make an effort the first time to put them on their feet. I always thought that communism breeds among the down and out and the dissatisfied people. I certainly felt badly that there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the floor and all that.

I thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for Marina, who was in rags, I thought I will make him less bitter which he was, and he will see, as I told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. And I added to him, "Lee, I am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner by birth, telling you, a native-born American, that you can lift yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them."

Well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. That is true. Marines, no skill. Sheet-metal work, I don't know if that was true in Russia. He didn't know anything. I understood from other people that when he went to the Texas Employment Commission in Fort Worth to ask for a job and they said what can you do—nothing. Where did you work last—Minsk. Let's call it off. He couldn't progress. He couldn't get any place. So this is maybe facetious on my part and I admit it, but my policy in this thing was substantially the policy of the U.S. Government as I see it.

When we see that the Cambodians are leaning towards communism because they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. I did exactly that, as I saw it.

Mr. Bouhe. No; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third visit to their house when the ladies and I brought the clothes to Marina and such—I even brought two shirts for him—not new, used, and that is where I saw him for the first time trying to show his displeasure over me.

He measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were not new shirts. Finally I said, "Lee, this is to go-to-work. Wear them 3 or 4 days, get them dirty, then throw them away." So finally he folded it up and gave it back to me. "I don't need any."

Then I understand he objected that myself and a couple of others brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox was empty. I took him and Marina once to a supermarket, partly for the groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this is Ajax and this is Kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes.

Mr. Liebeler. Could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the Oswalds?

Mr. Bouhe. Probably groceries, $10. I gave him a $5 bill for the bus fare from Fort Worth to Dallas on some subsequent Sunday.

I did not know the exact amount of the fare. And when he arrived here and I met him I said, "Was that enough?" He said, "Oh, yes." But he didn't give me any change. I remember that.

Then I bought at Montgomery Ward a playpen for about $11 for the kid. I bought a pair of moccasins for Marina, in the presence of another lady, at Montgomery Wards for $5, and since she was without stockings, we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her measure moccasins without stockings.

373 I also gave De Mohrenschildt $20 and I got back $3 or $4 for them to take Marina to the Baylor School of Dentistry right here in Dallas where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford to go to the regular dentist.

And since De Mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of time, they were taking Marina there probably two or three times. And I think De Mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back.

Mr. Bouhe. In cash, I do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in clothes, used, not new, yes.

Mr. Bouhe. Through me, I collected—Mrs. Meller gave, I am sure Mrs. Ford gave, I can't remember now; possibly Mrs. Hall. Those were used clothes.

Mr. Liebeler. This all took place prior to the time Oswald moved to Dallas, did it?

Mr. Bouhe. After, because she was living then with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth 3 weeks. That means the period somewhere between October 8th.

Mr. Bouhe. That sounds right to me. And during that period she came, I'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. She had a lot of teeth rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, and here those student guys just love to pull.

Mr. Liebeler. Did these groceries that you speak of other people giving the Oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for them?

Mr. Bouhe. Probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, I don't remember. No regular contributions of groceries, no.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you pay Oswald's rent at the YMCA when he stayed there in October?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of any other financial contribution that might have been made to the Oswalds during this period?

Mr. Bouhe. When he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of application blanks some place and you have to say about your military service. And where it says, "Discharged." I'd ask, "How?" And he would say: "Put down honorable."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see any literature concerning Cuba in his possession?

Mr. Liebeler. Did either Oswald or Marina ever tell you whether or not Oswald was personally liked while he was in the Soviet Union? Did he get along with the Russian people?

Mr. Bouhe. This is talking about the lady, so I want to be careful. Marina said: "When I saw him, I was so sorry for him. Nobody liked him. I was so sorry for him I must make him comfortable here, or something like that."

Mr. Bouhe. He said he went duck shooting with the boys. But whether they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, I don't know. He was not a very talkative person.

Mr. Liebeler. You have the impression that as a general manner he was not a popular person when he was in Russia?

Mr. Bouhe. It was my impression for more than one reason. He had a mind of his own, and I think it was a diseased one. I could not imagine with whom he would be friendly. I could not.

Mr. Liebeler. Now did Oswald ever express any resentment of the U.S. Government for delaying his return to the United States?

Mr. Bouhe. Well, "Damn it, I don't know why it took them so long to get on the horse."

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual in the Government?

Mr. Bouhe. Never heard. And I must emphasize again that to talk politics with a man like that, I would find totally hopeless and useless. I never did it. But if anybody asked me, did he have any hostility against anybody in the Government, which I didn't hear myself, I would say Governor Connally.

Mr. Bouhe. Because, where, I can't find the paper, but when he was in Minsk, he wrote a letter. I have it some place, but I don't know where, in the paper here.

Mr. Liebeler. Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did Oswald tell you that he wrote a letter to Governor Connally?

Mr. Bouhe. Absolutely. No correspondence. We didn't discuss. I would say my conversations with Oswald were at rock bottom minimum.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any feeling before the assassination that he had any hostility toward any individual in the Government?

Mr. Bouhe. I did not hear him say anything like that. But in reading this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the letter which he wrote from Minsk to Governor Connally, who was at the time Secretary of the Navy, and told him that he wants to correct the injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and I almost see the period "as soon as possible."

Connally passed it to the Marine Corps, according to the paper, which did nothing about it. And then I think it was the Newsweek magazine story which said, quoting Oswald, "Well, I will leave nothing undone to correct this injustice." That is what I know from the press. To me, I would say that it looks like a threat.

Mr. Liebeler. But you don't have any knowledge of Oswald's displeasure with Governor Connally?

375 Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any reason to believe that she could understand English?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; I said, well, in sort of a joking way, "Well, my God, you have an American husband. Didn't he teach you sweet nothings." Or something like that.

But she did not speak English. And when we spoke English in front of her, for instance, at Mrs. Gregory's, who is not a Russian——

Mr. Bouhe. I said, "Marina, I am sorry, but we have to say these few words in English."

"Oh, well, that is all right, I will learn it sometime," or something like that.

Mr. Bouhe. It did not appear to me; yes. And then on that subject I have talked with you.

Mr. Bouhe. Shortly after I saw that she is scared of him. He is a bad provider, doesn't make friends, I thought there will be a calamity in the family there sometime.

And Marina Oswald sort of, I think, appreciated when she saw what I tried to do for her and her kid. I told Marina, "If you are a brave girl, if I were you, I would prepare myself to stand on my own feet before long. But before you start anything, you have to speak English."

"Well, how can I learn to speak English. Whenever I try to talk to Lee, he always come back in Russian and doesn't want me to speak English to him. This is positively so."

Now the young Gregory who is taking Russian lessons at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of Russian, I know he went to Marina to pick up some Russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in English, but he was leaving for the university so I know that that system was to be short-lived.

Therefore I offered Marina on my own volition without being asked for it, an excellent dictionary published by the U.S. Government Printing Office in Washington during World War II as a guide for officers and generals in communicating with the Russians, and was prepared, as I understand, by the elite of the Russian emigre academic world in the American society.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you give this to Marina and attempt to teach her the English language?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes. But how I say to read and study, you have to have perseverance. "Let me try something", I said, and so on this paper I would write in Russian lesson number one and start writing in big letters in Russian simple sentences, "My name is Marina Oswald. I live in Fort Worth. We buy groceries on Tuesday. My husband works on Wednesday. This is a tropical climate."

Mr. Bouhe. With a line space in between and asked her to look at the dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in English, which she did faithfully for approximately 4 weeks, maybe 5.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us approximately when this was? They were living in Fort Worth at that time?

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; I would say that was the last 3 weeks in September, and maybe the beginning of October which is when she moved to Mrs. Hall's. I would say it was sometime between September 12 and October 20.

Mr. Liebeler. After about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, is that right?

Mr. Bouhe. The fifth or sixth lesson did not return. Now just a moment, she would write the English words. She would send it all back to me and I would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see what it should have been.

And incidentally, I was shown that by an FBI agent 10 days ago, because a Russian speaking FBI agent came to see me for 5 minutes. He said, "Please376 take a yellow pad and write 'My name is Marina Oswald. We live in Fort Worth.'"

Mr. Bouhe. I don't know what he had. All I could hear was my own words, because I have a way of speaking myself. He just showed me a photostat of one of my pages. This was it. And she made progress.

Mr. Bouhe. The first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each. She made a good headway.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know if she ever went to visit with Mr. Gregory to study English?

Mr. Bouhe. Now Marina was in my house with Lee Harvey Oswald and the baby when I met them at the bus station on or about September 9, 1962.

Mr. Bouhe. Precisely. I took them from the bus to my house, changed the diaper——

Mr. Bouhe. Never. And I never was, to the best of my recollection, and made a point of it never to be in Marina's house without somebody else being there.

Mr. Liebeler. Now can you tell us why you took such care in that regard? Why did you make sure that you never went to visit Marina Oswald?

Mr. Bouhe. Because he was a peculiar guy, and I am not a fighter. I am an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. And by his smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that I am not welcome and I am persona non grata, because apparently he was jealous that I filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody else bought groceries, he said, "Who did that?" "Why I gave you $2 last week; $2 you got."

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald was ever jealous of the attention that any other gentlemen in the Russian group might have given to Marina?

Mr. Bouhe. I did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably I showed undivided, what I might call, interest in the family as a whole.

Mr. Liebeler. So as far as you know, Oswald never was really jealous of any of your friends or your attention to Marina in any romantic way?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; I am not only meaning you, Mr. Bouhe, I mean anyone else in the group. You never heard any stories to that effect?

Mr. Bouhe. But I did think maybe Marina slipped, after the second beer, "Well, Lee is jealous of you."

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know why Marina stopped studying English at the end of the fourth lesson?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been charged with the assassination of the President?

377 Mr. Liebeler. He did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that respect?

Mr. Bouhe. He appeared to be critical of the United States, an individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place under the sun. But I did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist thought in the Bronx in 1952, that he is potentially dangerous, and to whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition.

Mr. Liebeler. He did not appear to you prior to the assassination that he was dangerous in any respect?

Mr. Bouhe. He liked to get into a fight, I heard and get beaten up, I heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. Yes; he is a tough guy but——

Mr. Liebeler. As far as assassinating the President or shooting somebody, that's never occurred to you?

Mr. Bouhe. Thought of it a lot, and I can unqualifiably say, I could not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that I suspect yes—no, no.

Mr. Bouhe. Mr. De Mohrenschildt is a Ph. D., comes from an excellent family back in the old country, married the right people, knows everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here with Mr. Gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted.

When I talked to De Mohrenschildt, who met Oswald somewhere in October or November, whether at Meller's or Mrs. Ford's, I told him, "George, I just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble."

By trouble, I meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of that sort of stuff.

George, who liked him, said, "Oh, come on, you are too critical, you are too big a snob. Just because he didn't come from St. Petersburg, then you drop them like a hot cake. They are nice people."

Mr. Bouhe. Yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little hoopla circus.

So they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one day. If I ran into them at De Mohrenschildt's house once in that period, that is almost an exaggeration.

Mr. Liebeler. But you say you know De Mohrenschildt did go on and attempt to help the Oswalds in the manner that you have described?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any idea whether De Mohrenschildt exercised any particular influence over Oswald?

Mr. Bouhe. I think Oswald had respect for the size and the weight and the muscles of De Mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to tell something to Oswald, like he had to change a shirt on Wednesday, or not to be dirty, or do something on Sunday, he wouldn't care—De Mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him.

Mr. Bouhe. I don't know whether he did it, but De Mohrenschildt would say it. Whether that registered or not, that I don't know. I wouldn't even say it.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Bouhe, I want to show you five photographs of a man, and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that Mrs. Ruth Paine gave before the Commission. We do not have the numbers here. I will ask you378 if you recognize this man or these men. [Commission Exhibits 451, 453–456, WJL.]

Mr. Bouhe. If I saw him, it must be in my dreams. I don't remember seeing that man.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have anything else now, Mr. Bouhe, that you think that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. I have no more questions that I want to ask, do you have anything else that you think we ought to know before we finish?

Mr. Bouhe. He took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple of drinks at Katya Ford's house. I think that I saw him with a glass, but do not know if it was ginger ale.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have anything else that you want to call to our attention that you think would help us in this matter?

Let me say this, we are going to be here in Dallas for the next 2 or 3 days. Why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. If you think of it in the next 2 days, you call the U.S. attorney's office and we will make arrangements.

Mr. Liebeler. In view of the fact that Mr. Bouhe has nothing that he can think of at this point and in view of the fact that I have no further questions, I would like to terminate the examination at this time with the final question of you, Mr. Bouhe, as to whether there is anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? In other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple of matters off the record, and I ask you now, isn't it a fact that everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while the reporter was writing?

Mr. Bouhe. Absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. But I must say I am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment I cannot think of anything. But as usual, I will go out and lie down and will think of something, so don't hold it against me.

Mr. Bouhe. Because I have seen 11 FBI agents and 3 from the Secret Service, of which 2 were speaking Russian, or were natives of Russia, and I—by the way, where do I go out? Will the name unfortunately appear in the paper?

Mr. Bouhe. I tell you, I certainly don't want any publicity. Too, I am fearful, because you probably heard about this—is this on the record?

Mr. Bouhe. This is Dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings going on, and as I read in the paper at the time Oswald was being captured at the Texas Theatre, some mob was assembling and they were holding him out there, and screaming, "Kill the Republicans," and you can see the——

Mr. Liebeler. We will see to it that your name is not mentioned in connection with the affair. At this point I think we can terminate.

TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER

The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of those documents with that letter?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you rise, Mrs. Meller, and please raise your right hand? (Witness complying.) Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Meller. Belgorod, something like Fort Worth; it's not Belgrade like in Yugoslavia. It's B-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling].

Mrs. Meller. Yes, but we will say first town going north it starts Russia after.

380 Mr. Liebeler. The Germans took you from Russia and took you back to Germany?

Mrs. Meller. I went to Poland first then from Poland to Germany, then from Germany to United States.

Mrs. Meller. Mr. Meller I met in Germany and married in Germany short before we came to United States. Year, I just may not be exactly in the dates. I am just a little bit forgetful always but I would say we met, 1946, I met him.

Mr. Liebeler. Concerning your departure from Russia, were you taken by the German Army from Russia or did you leave Russia of your own free will and go to Germany?

Mr. Liebeler. Was that prior to the retreat of the German Army or with the retreat of the German Army?

Mrs. Meller. They took many young people on the streets. If you walk on the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is inside everybody going by train. I certainly tried to prevent myself as much as I could to go out and then I talk a little bit German and all that, but I held part of luck little bit, I stay in country and worked for Germans for piece of bread so I wouldn't die of hunger because Russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital was retreated back. I went with or I had to stay and die of hunger. That way, I was brought piece by piece further deeper into Poland and Germany.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't really want to leave Russia at the time; you wanted to remain in Russia, is that correct?

Mrs. Meller. That's quite a question. I never liked regime in Russia in politics. I don't understand those things but I never liked those regime in Russia; even at 16 I would ask father such questions it would raise his hair. I could not understand what was going around, why we could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of something.

Mrs. Meller. We took with my husband in Germany year before we came to United States, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit more than a year and when I came to United States I had pretty good vocabulary, I can speak and I could write but I was afraid to speak. I forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you come directly to Dallas when you came to the United States?

Mrs. Meller. Sir, we came to New York and from New York, several names they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in north, we suppose to go to Milwaukee and he says those families several go to the south, he said to Texas and I am ashamed to say I heard about Texas but never heard about Dallas. I heard Houston and Austin but never heard Dallas, and we——

Mrs. Meller. We came to Dallas and are in Dallas 12 or almost 13 years here and love it.

Mrs. Meller. Yes; I love drafting all my life and I wanted to be architect but I finish school in dentistry and war came. I passed all examinations besides the main diploma when war started so I get my diploma—without the main diploma—without examination of—from my dentistry examination but I get my diploma.

381 Mr. Liebeler. So, you were a qualified dentist in the Soviet Union before you left?

Mrs. Meller. Yes; I got my document but without final examination of dentistry because war started. By the way, I was always good in drafting back in school and I wanted to be always a draftsman or architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it and I wasn't the best one in physics, I remember, and I couldn't possibly—and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education, it started just then in Russia. Parents said you have to take something and finish so you have some kind of job, but when I was starting dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. I was working at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so I get always money on the side little bit so I could proceed my studying. When I came to United States I have pretty bad veins. I could not stay very much on my feet; I had phlebitis when I arrived short after and doctor said better I will have sitting job better than standing because modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so I took drafting. I went for my own interest to Crozier architecture school and took course in Dallas so I could see what drafting look like in United States. Since that time I love it and my job.

Mrs. Meller. My husband works, too, at Sangers Harris as packer for 11 years or 12. I will say 12 years.

Mrs. Meller. No; my husband from Poland, born in Poland, finish two universities. He's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical education.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time that you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mrs. Meller. We were invited one day in August, I think end of August in 1962, we were invited to Fort Worth to Mr. Peter Gregory—I, my husband and Mr. George Bouhe. My husband couldn't go and I want to make something—we don't have a house here. We don't have car here. We have one bedroom apartment we live for past 10 year in same place. When we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so Mr. George Bouhe picked me up and because he had a car and we went to Fort Worth. At Mr. Gregory family, we met Marina and Lee Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection the conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at which you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. Meller. We met them and Mr. Gregory said they come from Russia not long ago and we find out immediately that Marina could not speak word of English whatsoever. The baby was probably about 4 months old, baby girl was with. We talked; we didn't have something important, just were speaking about condition in United States and how Marina likes and if you had a job—Lee Harvey. By the way, the first impression of Lee Harvey is a man absolutely sick. I mean mentally sick; you could not speak with him about anything. He's against Soviet Union; he's against United States. He made impression he did not know what he likes, really. She was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. Really, it was easy going conversation but not much. We asked how is her baby and we find out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and I even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; I don't remember exactly or he was looking for it.

382 Mr. Liebeler. It was quite clear to you at that time that Marina was not able to speak English?

Mrs. Meller. Yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word; however, he spoke Russian pretty good to understand, amazingly.

Mrs. Meller. I don't remember exactly. Later I heard certain somebody asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took English in school and studied very much at home.

Mrs. Meller. Russian in school and studied at home very much with himself as Marina said later.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that his command of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had spent in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in Russia to learn Russian?

Mrs. Meller. You know, he tried to not to speak much. He was not easy to come to it and speak. He will say some sentences and tried to be more quiet. He was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something, he would raise his voice and get very excited—upset.

Mr. Liebeler. You said your first impression just was he appeared mentally sick. Can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you came to that conclusion?

Mrs. Meller. Later on, when I saw him—I saw him two times or three in the whole period and I saw him mad about some things, about people tried to help Marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. He did not want to take anything. He always said "I don't need". He was against everything and he did not want his wife try to speak English, not a single word.

Mrs. Meller. He said he wanted to learn better Russian. She has to speak Russian so he can speak better Russian; she don't need English.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw Oswald and the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever told you about anything or when you learned about anything. When did you next see Oswald?

Mrs. Meller. Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought—always for Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature about Communism. It caught my eye and I was real upset.

Mrs. Meller. I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset.

Mrs. Meller. It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her house.383 No; excuse me just a second, sir. One of these times we came to Marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue spot over her eye and I said to her "What's the matter?" Marina was shy little bit. She's shy little, a little bit in nature, I think, too. She said "I have to get up during night and quiet baby and I hit the door and hit my head here" and it was very blue.

Mrs. Meller. Under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was very noticeable I will say. I said "You have to be careful" but I felt always like girl tried to hide something, you know. She was shy and not very—didn't like to talk too much, I think. That's last time I went; it was on Mercedes Avenue in Fort Worth where they had home.

Mr. Liebeler. You never saw Lee Oswald except for this first meeting at Peter Gregory's?

Mrs. Meller. Yes. I never visit him by myself and never without George Bouhe. We were always together—group.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you make a special point out of going as a group and not going one person?

Mrs. Meller. Well, I would tell you, before we started to help Marina and Oswald somebody raise the question—I tried to remember who but I couldn't—I think our friend Mr. Clark from Fort Worth.

Mrs. Meller. Yes; and George Bouhe and I said, I said "You know, George, he's check?" "He comes from Soviet Union" and somebody said, I think George Bouhe said "I asked and they tell me he's checked." I thought if he's checked with FBI you suppose not to be afraid to help them, something like that. It was my own inside feelings.

Mr. Liebeler. You were sort of suspicious of Oswald because he had been in the Soviet Union for a while?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the Soviet Union and bring Marina back to the United States with him?

Mrs. Meller. When somebody asked, he told them they—they let—they go to American Embassy and they let him go. It seem like it was supposed to be in order if they give him even money and American Embassy let him go. I thought it must be in order. I never heard of anything in my lifetime, anything like that happen. I don't recall any case like this one having so much sorrow and trouble. It was in Fort Worth then, I do not recall. We will go in more there later. We find out that Lee Harvey lost his job. I think by the last time we saw Lee Harvey Marina mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon.

Mrs. Meller. Yes; and I said "Well, if you can't find a job in Fort Worth, come to Dallas and look around." Then one day we heard he was looking for a job in Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Let me go back to the time that Oswald lived in Fort Worth. You said that you and Mr. Bouhe had given groceries to the Oswalds and helped them in other ways. Would you tell me approximately, and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other things were given to the Oswalds during that period by friends?

Mrs. Meller. It was pretty good. I would give her old dresses. I asked three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about 10 to 15 dresses, probably. We bought some underwear, probably two, three pairs.

Mrs. Meller. For Marina, strictly for Marina. When we met her we had sorrow for Marina for not speaking word of English; just for sake of woman384 with baby. Seems her husband will not care for her about anything. We never saw he will be really——

Mrs. Meller. Responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. I never saw that feelings, never, and being a Russian myself and go through certain trouble during World War II where the good people helped us very much for all sides of walks when I came to United States, even I was brought up in family at home to help somebody if I can in trouble, so I saw Russian girl couldn't speak word of English and baby and looks like husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward Marina start to help her. It was only idea. Somehow it sounds strange but somehow it even looks to me like—we didn't see Lee Harvey buying anything, very little; they was just existing—woman and baby in hands, baby 4 months old, young girl. When we went to, George Bouhe and I, to house we took her to store in Fort Worth and George Bouhe bought about $18 groceries and I tried to let her pick up some of the things she would like and first thing she started with baby food. I will tell you, she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. She's young mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. I looked and I was wondering; baby was first.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries for them?

Mrs. Meller. I don't recall exactly but I think it was more probably two occasions that George Bouhe spent lot of money. Second time, I think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, I am not familiar with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for the child.

Mrs. Meller. No; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the baby. I think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears, couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly more groceries. Then one day when came with groceries like that Lee Harvey come from work and Mr. Bouhe told him to come with and try to help to pick up playpen. He was furious why we did all that and buy all that and he said "I don't need"; he was in rage; "I don't need," he say.

Mrs. Meller. He went but you can see it was not like he had to go—it was something which was real hard for him to do it—never talked much and I could not talk much to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you understand that perhaps he had good reasons?

Mrs. Meller. Sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and I think he was a person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people. He could not talk like—I see first time and anyway, to explain as much as I could, but I doubt if he would talk to you same way I do. He had always something hidden; you can feel it. He was not very—not willing to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the milk for baby—"We don't need anything."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know how much money he was making at his job in Fort Worth?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that the United States had made to him?

Mrs. Meller. Yes; he said that he has to pay to Embassy back money and that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to American Embassy to pay their passage but I never asked how much.

Mr. Liebeler. But you knew or he told you at that time that he was making payments to the American Government?

Mrs. Meller. Yes; he was paying; if I am not wrong, I think he say he mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and I think it was not much at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever give any money to Marina or did you just confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing?

385 Mrs. Meller. Well, I give her $5.00 some good soul give it to me and I give her $5.00 and I spend two or $3.00, little bit, not as much as George Bouhe. It's our very good friend, George Bouhe; he—we haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. I mean, he never—how to explain—interested what nationality you are. If you are in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere.

Mr. Liebeler. It isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it from being counted twice.

Mr. Liebeler. Did either Oswald or Marina at any time that you knew them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job Oswald had while he was in Russia?

Mrs. Meller. Oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but, something—how to explain—something that you have with machinery. I mean something to fix like hard—just like hardware store, something with those things. I think it was a dirty job. Not exactly locks but some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, I think is kind of work he did but I am very sorry I never was listening real good.

Mrs. Meller. I don't recall; I just did not pay much attention. I know he was having a pretty good room there.

Mrs. Meller. That he was having good room and something—maybe I am not right, sir, I am afraid to say, like $80 month.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he say or indicate he received help from the Red Cross or any other phase of the Embassy?

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know any money he ever received in Russia is from his job, is that correct?

Mrs. Meller. Yes; and I am not clear here because I may have heard something and never paid much attention.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used to go on in Russia?

Mrs. Meller. Something he said one time that he went with some Russian boys, probably young people, hunting one time, I think he mentioned and it was something like duckhunting, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, he said that he only went on one hunting trip?

Mrs. Meller. I mean I heard him saying one time that, just sort mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere I think as much as I know him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you or did Marina tell you about the circumstances under which Marina and Lee met and became married in Russia?

Mrs. Meller. Just far away rumors like I cannot imagine because I am not clear with that. It is so far away and so unclear I am afraid to let you know but in short, I think Marina said she met him at somewhere at a dancing place.

Mrs. Meller. I think she was born there and lived some time and then was in Minsk.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning to the United States, that you remember?

386 Mrs. Meller. No; I will not say; it was mentioned Embassy and that Embassy even decided to help with the money. That was all I think I remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever express any dislike toward the State Department or the Embassy because they delayed his return to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever express any hostility toward the U.S. Government, that you can remember?

Mrs. Meller. I will not say. I just do not recall. He never said too much is what I say.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent?

Mrs. Meller. Not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in ways. He was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. You could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. He will always say something against—some way.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever get the impression as to whether Oswald was well liked when he was in Russia or was he unpopular when he was in Russia, do you know?

Mrs. Meller. My personal opinion, this person could never be friendly with anybody, very friendly, I mean. He was such a person that you never can come near even if you want to.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to why she married Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Meller. I don't remember what she said but I remember one sentence which is even caught in my head that she said. She wished all her life to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's tired living not like a human living. She wanted to have piece of her personal life and piece of her room just to her own. I remember her expressing that very, very deeply.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, do you remember that some time in the fall of 1962, after the Oswalds had moved out of their apartment in Fort Worth that Marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she wanted to leave Oswald? Would you tell us about that?

Mrs. Meller. Yes, yes, sir. It was in November, I think on certain Monday about 10 in the evening, she will call me and say that her husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the filling station and said the man—she did not have a penny of money, and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me if she can come over my house. I was speechless because to this time I even didn't know they were in Dallas. To understand, sir, we went to Fort Worth two or three times to help Marina and then was for certain period quiet and then I do not know how long, maybe 6 weeks, maybe month, maybe 3 weeks and then I had this call. I said "Where are you?" She said "In Dallas." Certainly, then my husband was at home; I came to my husband and I asked him if we can take Marina. He did not want to. We have one bedroom apartment and he said "Do not have very much space." I like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "We have to help poor woman; she's on the street with baby. We could not leave her like that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." My husband said "Okay let her come. She said to me she did not have a penny of money. I said "Take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." So, about 11 or 10:40 she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no coat, no money, nothing.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did she have bruises?

Mrs. Meller. She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you can see she was shaking.

Mrs. Meller. Nervous, upset and looked like—she did not cry exactly and at me now but looks like she cried—her eyes.

Mrs. Meller. I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not remember asking really for what or something. I did not ask for arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. I do not think I went into detail.

Mrs. Meller. Marina stay, I think 1 week, 5 days at my home, something like Monday until Friday and Friday she went to another family by the name of Mr. Ford, Mr. and Mrs. Ford.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina tell you any time during that week that she stayed with you what she and Oswald had been arguing about and what their difficulties were?

Mrs. Meller. No, no; she did not say much. She mention that her husband could not find proper jobs. They don't want to take him or he could not find; she did not know herself very much. You can see without speaking word of English I do not know what he could come home and tell her; I cannot imagine. She said Lee could not find job and they are in trouble and she did not say much. By the way, she was so skinny to this time and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not feel good. She had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her I decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit.

Mrs. Meller. So, I took her during this week she stay with me. I took her to the G-y-n by the name Doctor Paul Wolff.

Mrs. Meller. He give her examination and said in my presence, said she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least 5 pounds immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. She had bad appetite.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember her saying anything about living in the home of Elena Hall?

Mrs. Meller. That Mrs. Hall was very good to her and she stayed there probably about 3 weeks if not more.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in Mrs. Hall's home?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had left Mrs. Hall's home? In other words, I want to know how long she had been living in Dallas with Oswald.

Mrs. Meller. It is time—thank you for remembering, helping me here. It was the time between Fort Worth and our family and, in other words, I think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in Fort Worth and went to Dallas look for job. During this time Marina stay at Mrs. Hall home for 3 or 4 weeks, if I am correct. It is not easy to remember, really, and during this time we heard, I think he called on telephone to us, Lee Harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him with a job. In all time when we visited them in apartment in Fort Worth and I heard from Marina that her husband may lose job pretty soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just like good soul, I say "You have to come to Dallas which is larger town and maybe he find job." I did not say personally about George Bouhe maybe388 he find job there, just mention in general. So he called and ask if we can help him and again, as I repeat, for the sake of the poor woman which could not speak word of English and her little baby, I asked my husband. I was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job for Lee Harvey in Dallas. Mr. Meller has a former friend with whom he was working back at Harris but this time it was not Sanger-Harris. It was just A. Harris store and he was working with certain Mrs. Helen Cunningham. Later, Mrs. Cunningham left A. Harris and was working for employment office in Dallas.

Mrs. Meller. Texas Employment Commission; so, I asked him and I said "Your former friend, Mrs. Helen Cunningham, maybe she can find job for him. Please ask her." He did not want to do it. He said just because I ask him and begged him so much he called Mrs. Helen Cunningham; told her we had a couple which arrived from Russia; she's Russian, and he is American. They are not very long here and he is looking for job but he made a note and he said, "Mrs. Cunningham, be careful and check him because he came from Soviet Union." He said be careful so we would not have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came from Soviet Union and I do not know, however, we heard somebody mention he was checked and Mrs. Cunningham said, "Don't worry, Mr. Meller; we will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. He came one time during this period without Marina for half hour to my house. I give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for jobs.

Mrs. Meller. He will not mention exactly. He was sleeping; I think he was staying YMCA this time, living there and looking for job. He said he has little piece of paper and some notices there.

Mrs. Meller. But he never go into detail, never, never, never. He will mention but you will never find details out.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of any other place where Lee Oswald stayed during this period other than the YMCA?

Mrs. Meller. Never hear and when Marina Oswald later called me at night, I was speechless that she was already in Dallas and we did not know a word and when she mention name where she—they were living, I did not have address. I did not know where they were living, how long they are; they did not say a thing but I took her home, over my house for 5 days.

Mrs. Meller. Frank Ray; Frank Ray. I think Ray. Now, it was the last time we saw Marina. By the way, I must apologize—coming back when she was living at our home, we did not—she was separated with Lee Harvey to this time. She went out from him. He never call to our home. He never visited. We were working people. We will leave her with food at my home and we will come back in the evening. Nobody call; she never went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if George Bouhe help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive either. It was last time when I saw Marina Oswald and her girl who was about 4 or 6 months, I think. She was not even sitting.

Mr. Liebeler. Don't you remember seeing Lee and Marina Oswald at a party at the Fords?

Mrs. Meller. It was after I saw them at my house in December maybe. I do not recall exactly day, 20 or 22 December; it was party at home of Mr. and Mrs. Ford.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell me us about that party, would you, please—who was there; did Oswald come?

Mrs. Meller. Well, I do not know; it was probably over 20 people there and as I heard, Marina and Oswald were not invited there at all.

Mrs. Meller. De Mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and I heard from the other people that the De Mohrenschildt's called to Mr. and Mrs. Ford and asked if he can bring with him people, Marina and Oswald. They are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he brought them with.

Mrs. Meller. I did not see exactly walking in but I heard then that he brought them there.

Mrs. Meller. Yes; I saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking, cold, not very talkative. It was a certain Japanese girl, don't know her name, he was all evening with this girl and Marina was left all by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally somebody play with piano, I see her sitting, trying to catch some songs singing and I saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. I did not remember seeing her and him together this evening. He was all time with different girl which we met first time and I do not recognize her name.

Mrs. Meller. Do not recall name or anything, sir; I am very sorry. I would like to help you.

Mrs. Meller. Never saw him drink; do not recall. I saw Marina eating pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. Some our friends notice and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to eat.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall any discussion about Oswald after he left the party? Did you overhear any conversation about him and Marina?

Mrs. Meller. No; do not recall; I heard something from the people talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name—Lev Aronson, and I heard later that he talked to Lee Oswald and says that he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man.

Mrs. Meller. No; I did not talk to him. I heard that conversation, you know, going with a group of people and it was just——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have a party at your house some time following the party at the Ford residence?

390 Mrs. Meller. I could not recall really, but if I had, I never had Oswalds over to my house.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any discussion as far as you can recall either at the Ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of time where the question of whether Lee Oswald was a Russian agent was discussed?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, have you told us everything that you can remember about your meetings with Oswald and Marina that you think the Commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else?

Mrs. Meller. Oh, I know him about 6 years, probably; met him very seldom and we were never friends, real close, never.

Mrs. Meller. Try to help, I think was—try to help as much as we did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. Meller. I do not—if I say surprised or was shocked when President Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you. We could not believe at first at all.

Mrs. Meller. Yes, sir—oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name but it was three times together.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what?

Mrs. Meller. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from somebody that391 he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her.

Mrs. Meller. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat her.

Mr. Liebeler. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time, 1962?

Mrs. Meller. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it happened—when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New Orleans and back to Dallas?

Mrs. Meller. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It was the last time at Ford's family.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead.

Mrs. Meller. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I did not forget anything. I do not think so.

Mr. Liebeler. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL

The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. Liebeler. With that letter were included copies of those documents referred to, isn't that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to question you today about your knowledge of Lee392 and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at approximately Easter of 1963?

Mr. Liebeler. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort Worth, isn't that right?

Mr. Liebeler. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents were originally from Russia, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran?

Mrs. Hall. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran.

Mrs. Hall. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit and went back.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the United States, if you would.

Mrs. Hall. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States.

My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So he wanted—instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States?

Mrs. Hall. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5 years in Russian school.

393 Mr. Liebeler. After you married your husband in New York and subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth——

Mr. Liebeler. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were first married in 19——

Mr. Liebeler. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again in November of 1962, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you as little as possible.

Mrs. Hall. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there.

Mrs. Hall. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to $75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that, so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was sometime in July, I guess.

Mrs. Hall. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were. They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money. And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in this way I start to learn sometimes—give her some money or buy her some clothes.

Mrs. Hall. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her. George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes.

Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my employer's wife.

Mr. Liebeler. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is that correct?

Mrs. Hall. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house.

Mrs. Hall. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries until they moved to my house.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth?

394 Mr. Liebeler. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been $30 or $35?

Mrs. Hall. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my work. And then after they—I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move.

And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and then you can move?" So that's what they did.

Mr. Liebeler. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas looking for a job?

Mrs. Hall. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime.

Mr. Liebeler. I understand that you helped Marina move from the apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed?

Mrs. Hall. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas that night, that afternoon.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that helped you with the moving?

Mrs. Hall. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first time when George went——

Mrs. Hall. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very nice about that.

Mrs. Hall. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw in the kitchen——

Mrs. Hall. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange man, I guess.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child except for what Mr. Bouhe brought?

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support of the family at that time?

Mrs. Hall. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of October and I stayed395 in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days.

Mrs. Hall. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they were gone.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital?

Mrs. Hall. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about the past.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to Dallas from Fort Worth?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's parents lived in Dallas.

Mrs. Hall. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them after they moved from my house.

Mrs. Hall. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again.

Mrs. Hall. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and things like that.

Mrs. Hall. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her sewing, but she said she could.

Mr. Liebeler. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties?

Mrs. Hall. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat her all the time.

Mrs. Hall. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't ask396 at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her.

Mr. Liebeler. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was?

Mr. Liebeler. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a result of her husband beating her, is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house, did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't know."

And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And she said, "No; I don't think so."

She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did not have normal sexual relations.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell me everything that you can remember about that subject that Marina told you.

Mrs. Hall. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only thing she told me.

And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my business, you know.

Mrs. Hall. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would—was not very much of a man in that sense?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your house, other than what we have already talked about?

Mrs. Hall. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of everything, hot peppers."

And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some people like them and some don't."

Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a good wife?

Mrs. Hall. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48 hours a397 day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so on.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald in front of other people?

Mrs. Hall. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that. Not complete man.

Mr. Liebeler. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was.

Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other people, or was it a more general thing?

Mrs. Hall. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't.

Mr. Liebeler. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina?

Mrs. Hall. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing.

Mrs. Hall. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in Russia?"

And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on. And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life in Russia than Marina did?

Mrs. Hall. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions, she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think——

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or magazines that you saw?

Mrs. Hall. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the downtown library, Fort Worth Library.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether these books related to particular subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I think. I don't remember any names.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian language?

398 Mrs. Hall. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him, I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her learn English?"

And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English."

Mr. Liebeler. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well could she speak Russian?

Mr. Liebeler. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the Russian language?

Mrs. Hall. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school. Then I was in Russian school again.

Mrs. Hall. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach her something.

Mr. Liebeler. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not speak English at all?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't understand all little things.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could understand at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went on, is that right?

Mrs. Hall. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all that I know that she has of English.

Mrs. Hall. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house—in fact, I just came out from the hospital accident—this Gary Taylor and his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors.

399 Mr. Liebeler. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend of Oswald's?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him.

Mrs. Hall. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?" And he said, "No".

He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school can drive a car. How come you can't?"

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina ever did get her teeth fixed?

Mrs. Hall. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she came—and extracted them and came back.

Mrs. Hall. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one night, her and the baby, and we—I am a godmother of the child. And, of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of course, didn't like it at all.

Mrs. Hall. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas—I asked her, and she said, of course, he didn't like it.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time? What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection?

Mrs. Hall. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree, no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?" And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree."

Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was Christmastime,400 yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a commercialized holiday.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what your husband said in response to that remark by Oswald?

Mrs. Hall. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and—we will come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants, she can go with you."

Mrs. Hall. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't believe in nothing.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in Dallas?

Mrs. Hall. I think they had an argument and she left one night and she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just hear things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as to what the conversation was?

Mrs. Hall. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work. And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business for myself."

And he said something about security, I don't have any security here on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he said something about Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how long he was going to have his job?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you don't have to worry about that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but she never did want to go back.

Mrs. Hall. Well, I was telling her—she said the life is so bad there. Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed her—she don't have relatives—I think she has only, I mean she don't have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss them but I wouldn't like to go back and live."

401 Mr. Liebeler. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to Russia; is that right?

Mrs. Hall. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to just get out from that place.

Mr. Liebeler. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that statement on?

Mrs. Hall. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she never did like him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married Oswald to come to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald, or do you?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to take a gift to the baby, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the baby and yourself and your husband?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at that time?

Mrs. Hall. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long.

Mr. Liebeler. Was any—was there any further conversation about Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember?

Mrs. Hall. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn. "Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all day and eat trout. Fish and eat."

Mrs. Hall. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know, printing pictures or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, all the conversation that occurred at that time?

Mr. Liebeler. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to New Orleans, Mrs. Hall?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what your husband told you when you heard402 that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John, thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia?

Mrs. Hall. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark, because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We don't see him very much, these Russian people.

Mr. Liebeler. You formed that opinion because of books and literature that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you about him?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I was raised in a very anti-Communist family.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA?

Mrs. Hall. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes here in Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of these classes?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and Rubenstein or Ruby?

Mrs. Hall. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found this apartment in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Hall. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. You later learned from reading the newspaper that Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas?

Mrs. Hall. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look, or if he had something to read, he would read.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he did with his time when he wasn't at work?

Mr. Liebeler. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had other than his work?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at the little pond in Dallas?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were divorced. That was all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York, that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting along?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this Kleinlerer any more.

Mr. Liebeler. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone?

Mrs. Hall. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to grocery store, and sometimes she would take her.

Mr. Liebeler. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery store, or something like that? What was it?

Mr. Liebeler. How did she get groceries during the time that you were gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do you know?

Mr. Liebeler. But during the time that you and Marina both were living at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct?

Mrs. Hall. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact—that time when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked overtime at nights.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had in Russia?

Mrs. Hall. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't remember, really. I never did talk about this with him.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you?

Mrs. Hall. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income when he was in Russia from any source other than his job?

404 Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on when he was in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of such a thing?

Mrs. Hall. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their possessions? You said that you moved them?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia, where she lived and what kind of things she did?

Mrs. Hall. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved to Minsk.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they returned to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave Russia and come back to the United States together like they did?

Mrs. Hall. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean, we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know.

Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and all the Russians told probably, it is okay.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the Soviet Union and come back?

Mrs. Hall. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess.

Mr. Liebeler. That is something you read in the paper after the assassination, isn't that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would like to have it.

405 Mrs. Hall. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mrs. Hall. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a—I don't know how to express myself—person, that I never thought he could do something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, did it?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. Hall. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you hear? Lee Oswald—Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?"

I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee Oswald's name."

And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to return from Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk about President Kennedy in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have had with Mr. Nixon?

Mr. Liebeler. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any discussion about him?

Mr. Liebeler. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you should add at this point?

Mr. Liebeler. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very much, Mrs. Hall.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL

The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.

Mr. Hall. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any difference?

Mr. Liebeler. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?

Mr. Hall. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.

Mr. Hall. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. And then in 1956—in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort Worth.

407 Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently divorced?

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Oswald?

Mr. Hall. The first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.

I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about—when I made one of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, although Gali wasn't involved in this——

Mr. Hall. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born in Russia.

Mr. Hall. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.

All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas—De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.

Mr. Hall. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.

Mr. Hall. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I discussed this.

That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning—that was on Saturday—if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we would like to give this guy a job.

It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time being.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job through the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. Liebeler. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you then meet Oswald?

408 Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you talked about?

Mr. Hall. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.

So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about Russia.

We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing really important was said, that I can think of.

Mr. Hall. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and this Taylor fellow.

Mr. Hall. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.

I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and spent most of the day there.

And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.

The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with Marina, Thursday or Friday.

Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.

Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and ate with them.

And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was really led by Max.

He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth.

Mr. Liebeler. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. Hall. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up?

Mr. Hall. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after—this was the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came back and we remarried November 17, I believe—we didn't see Oswald again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on Sunday afternoon.

Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been409 during the week—anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present.

Mr. Hall. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments.

Mr. Liebeler. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to why he went to Russia?

Mr. Hall. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real strongly religious—I mean not to any extreme, but I have my firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our Christianity—I am a Baptist—I mentioned to Oswald—this is what touched the whole thing off—they didn't have a Christmas tree. We wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents, probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, and so forth.

When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was actually the first time I think that—this is the third time that I saw him—I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything specific—when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally.

I might not have seemed that way—I didn't get mad or anything, but I didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us.

And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was——

Mr. Hall. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it.

Mr. Hall. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right, but I am not going to go."

About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had accomplished the purpose, so we left.

Mr. Liebeler. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons why he went to Russia?

Mr. Hall. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight. I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in his job and didn't like the whole setup."

And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of life.

And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as he was just unhappy with all of our systems.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return to Russia?

410 Mr. Hall. Yes; and even at this time—in fact, I don't remember, I don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go back.

And I know this to be real definite that—I don't know how you want that—because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia.

So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, or told me directly—I think it was more directly, because I know at that time he wanted to go back to Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so many words?

Mr. Hall. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his way to Russia.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at Easter of 1963?

Mr. Hall. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit harder at that time than I had before.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during the time that he had previously been there?

Mr. Hall. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about the terrible expense of shoes and clothes.

Mr. Hall. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't remember what it was.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might have gone on in Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or the use of firearms?

Mr. Hall. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about it.

Mr. Hall. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for her to learn English.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood English?

Mr. Hall. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she could understand anything further than hello.

Mr. Liebeler. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963?

Mr. Liebeler. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to use English throughout that entire time, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason that you can remember?

Mr. Hall. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together with Oswald,411 and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt—and we are just middle-income people—but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in the bedroom and one in the living room.

This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like electric can openers and things like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the United States and leave Russia?

Mr. Hall. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to go back to Russia.

And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I wondered why.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times that you saw him?

Mr. Hall. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use.

And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help her.

Mr. Hall. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I think there were several people. My wife would know.

Mr. Hall. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to take her an Easter bunny.

Mr. Hall. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised.

Mr. Liebeler. But you had no thoughts at the time before the assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in any respect, did you?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you really consider or question, or you just never thought of it?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of any other thing that you might know about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct?

Mr. Hall. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like412 Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald, and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do.

Mr. Liebeler. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties with their marriage?

Mr. Hall. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that he beat her up one time.

Mr. Liebeler. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs. Hall's house in Fort Worth?

Mr. Liebeler. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. Hall. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas.

Mr. Hall. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that, which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back and—a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business, and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and we were married on the 17th.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first move into the house with your wife?

Mr. Hall. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually came back from New York—you see I came back a week earlier than she did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know what day, I don't think.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas during the time his wife was living in your house?

Mr. Hall. We understood—this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I guess—that he was living at the YMCA.

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in Dallas before taking that apartment?

Mr. Hall. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address on Neely Street.

Mr. Hall. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter.

413 Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them or gave any money to Marina?

Mr. Hall. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy groceries for the Oswalds at other times?

Mr. Hall. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery Ward.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to the Oswalds during that period of time, do you?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you might know about Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think the Commission should know?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to anybody else?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Hall. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in our laboratory—at that time we were watching television and were on the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were sure it was Oswald, then all of us—I am talking about my wife and Mrs. Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew that knew him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and if he did it, what his motive was?

Mr. Hall. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so set—in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a chance to change his thinking.

Mr. Liebeler. You think that these political attitudes of his were somehow related to his involvement in the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate the President? Or were related to it?

Mr. Hall. My—this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely feel that he414 thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our economic way of life by doing that.

Mr. Liebeler. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this before the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your mind prior to the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. Hall. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, no money problems, no rent problems—you see what I mean, just a middle-of-the-roader.

Mr. Liebeler. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be excellent at things?

Mr. Hall. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is going to change him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the Soviet Union.

Mr. Liebeler. There was no discussion about that prior to the assassination, that you can remember?

Mr. Liebeler. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you consider the question after the assassination and you did discuss it?

Mr. Hall. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In that—and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words, he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He couldn't take the orders.

Mr. Liebeler. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of authority, generally speaking?

Mr. Hall. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he must have had a lot of authority above him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was resentful of authority?

Mr. Hall. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can remember, why he was resentful of it?

Mr. Liebeler. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA)

The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please——

Mr. Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week?

Mr. Liebeler. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.

Mrs. Ray. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live.

Mrs. Ray. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18.

Mrs. Ray. Yes, 36th Division and he was—I don't know what outfit at the416 time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present address if that help.

Mrs. Ray. I forget number—Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street—it would be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an electrical engineer over there.

Mrs. Ray. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think—I don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare schools here to school over there.

Mrs. Ray. When I came over here I went to International Institute in St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen papers and I became citizen 1949.

Mrs. Ray. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of 1954; I remarried.

Mrs. Ray. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name of Pollock and Ray.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been staying at Mrs. Ford's house.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest.

He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't seem to be ungrateful but looked like417 "We don't need it." He didn't say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes.

Mrs. Ray. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was.

Mr. Liebeler. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house and talked with his wife——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment prior to that time?

Mrs. Ray. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when I talked to her on everything she described apartment—"I have living room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"—so I am almost certain that is the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea where she has been.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the Oswalds marital difficulties?

Mrs. Ray. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that he struck her or beat her up.

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what reason for beating her up?

Mrs. Ray. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you leave—I am not that nosey.

Mr. Liebeler. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to Mrs. Ford's to pick her up?

Mrs. Ray. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were?

Mrs. Ray. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's place on Elsbeth.

Mr. Liebeler. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina——

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation was?

Mrs. Ray. My talk with him mostly just on—what did I talk to him about?418 I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house.

Mr. Liebeler. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian or in English?

Mrs. Ray. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like simple words like if I say bread or—I would say she did not understand maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use every day in the kitchen, not any English at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did not try to teach Marina English?

Mrs. Ray. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian.

Mrs. Ray. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was absolutely—you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get answer. He did not say one word.

Mrs. Ray. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink because he would have said I don't care for any today or something.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything more about the conversation that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over?

Mrs. Ray. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough to discuss anything else.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in Russia, where she was born, where she was raised?

Mrs. Ray. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and the first time—like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to so and so and by that time, it got to me—first I heard about was she was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in Russia.

Mrs. Ray. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived with419 her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know.

Mrs. Ray. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She is the first Russian I met here in Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New Year's, 1962?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said "Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people. He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; somebody was talking care.

Mrs. Ray. Katya told me—that is Mrs. Ford—George De Mohren—it's something; I don't know him very well at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the Oswalds left the part?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or during the period following the Ford party in which the question of whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?

Mrs. Ray. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party for—normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work and she did not say. I really have no information after that party. I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me and I have never discussed it with anyone.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. Ray. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the assassination.

Mrs. Ray. Not—I do not know enough because—I do not know anything about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently, therefore, I usually stay away from that subject.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the assassination based on your exposure to her?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her because I felt she would be a very420 lonely girl living in this country and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I was——

Mrs. Ray. At first I did not because I knew her so short—I mean it was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to another country. In your own country might not be considered immature but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, people might consider you immature where you really not.

Mrs. Ray. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house when she had to go down for questioning.

Mrs. Ray. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.

Mrs. Ray. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more time and that was last time.

Mrs. Ray. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss him?" She said "No, she doesn't even—June doesn't even remember him." And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.

Mrs. Ray. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret Service and FBI?

Mrs. Ray. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. Ray. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on Richard Nixon. I did not know it.

Mr. Liebeler. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.

421 Mrs. Ray. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I missed that one.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. Ray. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the paper.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit suicide or attempt to?

Mrs. Ray. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by foreigner.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I think—I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in Russia to learn perfect it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?

Mrs. Ray. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would speak.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not think he had any special training in the Russian language?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; because—I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from Leningrad.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from Leningrad to Minsk, if she did?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met Oswald in Russia and why she married him?

Mrs. Ray. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her about that.

422 Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what was said?

Mrs. Ray. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just—what did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that funny? This is just few weeks ago—me and my brain, but I know they said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.

Mr. Liebeler. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of Russia, did you?

Mrs. Ray. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had a lot to do with it.

Mrs. Ray. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.

Mr. Liebeler. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own experience.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of your acquaintance?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he was even—I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. Ray. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it was him.

Mrs. Ray. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any kind of opinion what kind of person he was.

Mr. Liebeler. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous or prone to violence?

Mrs. Ray. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he struck Marina.

Mrs. Ray. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my 2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear corduroy pants and stuff like that.

423 Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?

Mrs. Ray. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend any money?

Mrs. Ray. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by us.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that night Lee came over to your house?

Mrs. Ray. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly it was he begged her to come back.

Mrs. Ray. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to come back; he was very—and she left. She mostly mention he cried and begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."

Mr. Liebeler. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one who killed the President?

Mrs. Ray. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was connected with anyone, but done it on his own.

Mrs. Ray. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really knows what prompted him to do such a thing.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. Ray. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go to nightclub. He despised them.

Mr. Liebeler. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?

Mrs. Ray. We talked little bit about that since—I mean this last few weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after this all happened.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?

Mrs. Ray. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did424 hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.

Mrs. Ray. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything like that may have been the case?

Mrs. Ray. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are older people.

Mr. Liebeler. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?

Mrs. Ray. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody at all.

Mrs. Ray. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?

Mrs. Ray. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to buy a rifle.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission might want to know about or should know about.

Mrs. Ray. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took us out, her and me, to lunch.

Mrs. Ray. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald came and got her before we did anything.

Mrs. Ray. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.

Mrs. Ray. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired of dragging her by the ear. She did not425 want to go so he gave up on her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was resentful—thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying to interfere with his marriage?

Mrs. Ray. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and food for her baby.

Mr. Liebeler. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?

Mrs. Ray. I think he resented taking things from people because when she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually talking to him alone.

Mr. Liebeler. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you would like to tell us, I have no further questions.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ

The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in this deposition which we are about to take?

I want to add only that I will—some of my statements or even the majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done—which we call hearsay.

Mrs. Voshinin. All right. And something else—some of the statements, they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words. You realize that?

Mr. Jenner. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression or impressions are and what they might not be.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would appear——

Mr. Jenner. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission——

Mr. Jenner. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's, the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission and fixing its rules and affording it its powers?

Mr. Jenner. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of procedure of the Commission?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in contact with them?

Mr. Jenner. And we understand that you have some information in those areas and I would like to inquire of you about them.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. Voshinin. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will spell you both names, because when I was born it was called Labinskaja—[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has been called Labinsk—just abbreviate where the "k" is.

Mrs. Voshinin. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This is Southern Russia.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus—[spelling] F-o-r-e—Caucasus.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in America, call the equivalent of high school?

Mrs. Voshinin. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years. It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from Russia when you were 1 year old?

Mr. Jenner. And in what country were you when you first became conscious of your whereabouts?

Mrs. Voshinin. Panchevo, next to Belgrade—[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. And before that my parents lived for a few years—I think for a couple of years in Bulgaria—in Varna Pleven—[spelling] V-a-r-n-a P-l-e-v-e-n—and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates.

Mrs. Voshinin. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that I met him again.

Mrs. Voshinin. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil engineer—as a city engineer.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning——

Mr. Jenner. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and was in the Yugoslavian Army?

Mrs. Voshinin. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in 1940—January 21.

Mrs. Voshinin. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the exercises—you know, the Army training.

428 Mrs. Voshinin. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already started—remember?

Mrs. Voshinin. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called—got a telegram to appear. And then he returned back in 19—let's see, when was that? 1942—no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans attacked us in April 1941—Yugoslavia.

Mrs. Voshinin. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an invitation to me, too.

Mrs. Voshinin. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm sorry. This is just a joke. It was—well, they would just ask you to appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to fill in. After that you were deported—you are supposed to go here and there.

Mrs. Voshinin. To Germany—drafted with other young people. At that time they were doing that.

Mrs. Voshinin. To Austria—Linz Am Donau—[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube—because there was another Linz there in Austria.

Mrs. Voshinin. Until, I believe, March 1945—until the Russian troops started approaching Linz Am Donau—because already they were on the outskirts.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; I didn't hear them very well—but Igor was at that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite distinctly—the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction—we didn't care which.

Mrs. Voshinin. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because, you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not have any permit to leave town—and this we might have been shot for it. Because, before we left town—several days before—Germans made an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we stayed, we would be put to death by Russians—so, what could we lose, you know?

Mrs. Voshinin. That's right—by lots of people. First, I believe it was French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through Kempten; and then came American troops.

Mrs. Voshinin. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you know—any friend.

Mrs. Voshinin. In New York—well, let's see. No. First of all we settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for—I'm not sure—Gee, I don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.—which was across the bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is. I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it.

Mrs. Voshinin. It was in September—beginning of September 1955. I believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September.

Mr. Jenner. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another Texas city first?

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant there—and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't know anybody at all, or you knew some one person—I forget.

Mrs. Voshinin. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you see, when we were in Houston, we met there—of course, we went to the church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest there and——

Mrs. Voshinin. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y—or "I". I don't know how he spelled it.

Mrs. Voshinin. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died. She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff—[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. 3714 Locke Lane—if you need the address.

And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally—she spoke very convincingly—she liked Texas very much—and we decided to stay here. And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and met George.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know exactly for whom he worked at that time—but I know that he worked for a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager of the Russian parish there—Father Alexander's parish.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, there were very few people and who we met there430 were Clarks—one of the first—Gali and Max Clark—that's [spelling] G-a-l-i.

Mrs. Voshinin. They live at 3712 Selkirk—[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k—in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Voshinin. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to Max—uh—she probably—that's the way she got to this country. She's not a born American.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, she said that her mother is of British descent—Hughes. And her father was Russian—Shcherbatov. It's a very well-known historical name.

Mrs. Voshinin. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family by name Popoff—[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f—Nicholas Popoff.

Mrs. Voshinin. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not sure where he works.

And I believe that's—yes, there were some people of Ukrainian background. I don't remember their names, though.

But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two priests—young priests—one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another one, Father Dimitri Royster.

I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a church of the future.

And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that they understand much better English. They do not understand Church Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly different from Russian and different from modern Russian language.

And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new church—practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his church, I believe four Chichillas—[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s—and I think that was about the whole parish.

And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly.

Mrs. Voshinin. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place—at other people's parties once in a while, but——

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz—both geologists. I stayed431 with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as far as I can remember—no longer than a month.

Mrs. Voshinin. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or November in 1955.

Mr. Jenner. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, George De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Voshinin. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help him with his projects—drilling projects, whatever he had there.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he wanted me to participate in the geology.

Mr. Jenner. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz?

Mr. Jenner. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history?

Mrs. Voshinin. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior history—only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his own words.

Mrs. Voshinin. He told me that he had some former wives—that he had a wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy.

And then that he had a second wife—I believe he said her name was Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He never talked about that.

And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never met her myself.

And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found—he met Jeanne [pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No—I am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married, I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia—two trips. I'm not sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or trips to Yugoslavia?

Mr. Jenner. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia—and start from the beginning, as you recall it?

Mrs. Voshinin. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to go to Yugoslavia.432 And, somehow, George didn't like very much this idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to go—something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to Yugoslavia.

But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells rather than his foreign work—which he did later after he returned from Yugoslavia.

Mrs. Voshinin. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to Yugoslavia. Because—of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This is my own impression of the whole thing.

Mr. Jenner. And you had these conversations with him about going to Yugoslavia before he left?

Mr. Jenner. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to Yugoslavia. You do know——

Mrs. Voshinin. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he brought back—that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia—and he brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought back—photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian.

Mrs. Voshinin. I think it was in—now, that I cannot place exactly. I think in 1957—in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959—it was before 1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So, that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him—and he introduced us.

Mr. Jenner. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking, that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth Petroleum Congress who knew George?

Mr. Jenner. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together with those people. We just—you know, it's not very easy sometimes to talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us—for some reason.

Mr. Jenner. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with——

And we just—I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow was there who was brought up also in Banat region—[spelling] B-a-n-a-t—which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely afraid.

433 Mrs. Voshinin. You know what he did? For some reason he would say—"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he would immediately cease talking, you know.

And then again, he would say it—and it was always in a crowd that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny behavior—really.

Mr. Jenner. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period of George De Mohrenschildt's career?

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, I would call it the second period because, first of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period.

Mrs. Voshinin. That was—well, from some cracks they made. I mean—no—well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe.

Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the FBI. So, I would rather say this now.

Mrs. Voshinin. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that—really angry. And it was just—all that constantly, you know, and their talking in left direction——

Mrs. Voshinin. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know, and once in a while they were just unpleasant.

Mr. Jenner. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife the liberal?

Mrs. Voshinin. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would talk—could talk either way. George—well, if he would, for example, think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something pro-Fascistic, he would do that.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you know. Communists—not communism. In fact, I never heard George—not necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several ways.

Mrs. Voshinin. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly.

Mrs. Voshinin. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite sympathy for the—I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow—not in particular.

Mrs. Voshinin. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well when434 she was married to her first husband—but not too close with her after she married Declan. I just met them several times.

Mrs. Voshinin. No, sir; I did not—oh, wait a minute. That was not Christmas party. That was New Year's party.

Mrs. Voshinin. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that. Yes; uh-huh.

Mrs. Voshinin. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the President that we attended the New Year's party.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality—other than in this area of argumentation and provocation.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, no; not beatnik—but he was definitely nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you know, object to.

Mrs. Voshinin. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to—in any way. For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know.

He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children in that respect—honestly. And what the trouble is with George and Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme bitterness—extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their former life.

Mrs. Voshinin. Toward life, toward people, toward—you know, they thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example, Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort of thing. And so and so on.

Mrs. Voshinin. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in, sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the form, mainly—because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in which they did it, you know, the impoliteness.

Mr. Davis. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help someone that needed help?

Mrs. Voshinin. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature, they435 are very, very good natured—definitely. They're for the underdog, you know—always. And—well, compared to George Bouhe, whose whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it or not, you know—they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not bother so much about people as George Bouhe did.

For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very, very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in any way they could.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet either one of the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn about their existence? Fix the time, first.

Mrs. Voshinin. About them arriving here and from where did they come. They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived here and——

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said in this article that arrested your attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance or happenings in Russia?

Mrs. Voshinin. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my friends—first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances. They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish.

Mrs. Voshinin. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that we don't want to associate with him at that time.

And the second time I heard from them—no, between that time—between Clarks and De Mohrenschildts—I heard from them some other people in the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them.

Mr. Jenner. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds—about two Oswalds. Right?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I heard—the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Jenner. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political inclinations?

Mrs. Voshinin. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather remarks on George's side—because we asked George definitely and Jeanne not to bring him436 to our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds are there because we had certain reasons—not evidence—but reasons to believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not sure at all whether he would be or not.

Mr. Jenner. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want to have anything to do with them?

Mrs. Voshinin. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then, later—that was at the beginning—that was at the very beginning—and then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a little bit. That's my own opinion—impression.

Mrs. Voshinin. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know, I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in theory but not in practice.

And finally I remember a pretty good conversation—George mentioned the possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was."

And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia—and then, of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I remember that argument—but more than that, I just can't say, because I just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again, you know—the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up about Oswald. What did you mean by that?

Mrs. Voshinin. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him, definitely for a period. You know, that he was just—that he just was a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person—especially a person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right?

Mrs. Voshinin. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2 years.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left in—oh—the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962.

Mrs. Voshinin. Then, for these 3 years—this is all our own theory, we have no——

Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children—with child, wife, and with suitcases—no problem there. Which is absolutely unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases.

And, thirdly, we believed that—we were expecting, rather, to hear from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know, reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in communism, came here sincerely—like people we know. For example, Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know.

Mrs. Voshinin. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. Right?

437 Mrs. Voshinin. According to George, he was a great—he had great intellectual power; he was very clever person—definitely intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was—he couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual person to go get his living lecturing against communism?

Mrs. Voshinin. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position. Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other people——

Mrs. Voshinin. But—the other point was that it would really help Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to the factory—or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he worked—instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right?

Mrs. Voshinin. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this.

Mr. Jenner. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to lecture?

Mrs. Voshinin. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person."

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt—say, "Well, why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?"

Mrs. Voshinin. I remember I did ask that—and I don't remember the exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia, or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd leave that up to him.

Mr. Davis. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke fluent Russian?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good Russian.

Mrs. Voshinin. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote—I don't remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember.

Mr. Davis. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2 years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian—just from the fact of working—just from the fact of working there?

Mrs. Voshinin. I think so. Yes; I think so—because, after all, you rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia—modern apartment. And they just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have to earn that to get it.

Mrs. Voshinin. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other people—I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. De438 Mohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?" What did you think they had?

Mrs. Voshinin. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like him; that his workers actually hated him.

And that was another hint to me—that why did they hate him? Usually, Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners. Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe he reported on them—or something like that. You know, little by little—but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it together and it sort of tells something to us, you know.

Mr. Jenner. You go right ahead. What you put together and what impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these impressions, why, what you base them on—and I understand that you are rationalizing.

Mr. Davis. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time?

Mrs. Voshinin. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper—or maybe his mother mentioned it—his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere. Some of her gossip, you know.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of the time——

Mr. Jenner. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since November 22, 1963.

We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in Russia and had come to America with his wife and child——

Mr. Jenner. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, and these were things he wasn't doing—from which you concluded you had some misgivings, at least.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with respect to trips to Houston, Tex.?

439 Mrs. Voshinin. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his business affairs—but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas.

Mrs. Voshinin. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow, with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time, prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all. We just didn't give much thought to that.

Mrs. Voshinin. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone number, you know, to call him—and it would be from Houston.

But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his private business—private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee Sharples—concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these Houston trips recently?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips before November 22—because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell exactly why, but she said something about some people—some character whom he is visiting in Houston.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; Teep [phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means "character" in English. You know, it means type of a person.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character—but what kind of a person?

And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again—and I assumed that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in Houston.

Mrs. Voshinin. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she said something—I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well, you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you can see why he thinks. [laughing]

Mr. Jenner. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some connection with Oswald?

Mrs. Voshinin. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business trips.

Mr. Jenner. But you do know that you were not aware of what the character of his business was in Houston, if he had any?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the United States to Panama.

Mrs. Voshinin. He says he did—and he brought some films and some photo pictures—photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there was that volcano eruption, you know—so I assume that he did make the trip.

Mr. Jenner. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she—because one of them was taking pictures.

Mr. Jenner. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and you saw also her——

Mr. Jenner. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your attention to a particular incident, did it?

Mrs. Voshinin. No; it did not. It only—you know what I was actually wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then, when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that distance.

Mr. Jenner. The volcano eruption—did that sequence of frames in the movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was a very beautiful picture.

Mrs. Voshinin. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n—because this is one of the recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico—Parikutin.

Mr. Jenner. All right. When was this event—the walking trip from the border to Panama?

Mrs. Voshinin. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that Khrushchev came to this country, right?

441 Mrs. Voshinin. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And we restored it after the trip.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had visited this country?

Mrs. Voshinin. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They returned probably in 1961.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated invasion of Cuba?

Mr. Jenner. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that event—at the same time, a little bit before, a little after?

Mrs. Voshinin. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on dates—and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was that?

Mr. Davis. Well, it was in—shortly after 1960. It would be about March of 1960.

Mr. Jenner. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December, December of 1960, or January of 1961.

Mr. Jenner. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961.

Mrs. Voshinin. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't know really. Really, I'm afraid to say.

Mrs. Voshinin. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their breath—to rest a little.

Mrs. Voshinin. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a month—and then came back.

Mr. Jenner. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the impression that they had visited Cuba?

Mrs. Voshinin. No. No. But something—I think he did not visit Cuba. I believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he said.

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia. I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper—Ghana newspaper—and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"—which caught my eye. So, I thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.]

442 Mrs. Voshinin. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all.

And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana—so I'm pretty sure he was there.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; and I saw the newspaper—and I believe this newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti—right. And the English one was from Ghana; yes.

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; in English language—written in English language. And that's what it said there.

Mrs. Voshinin. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you know—that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you are geologists looking for oil, you know.

But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some services for the State Department, you know.

Mrs. Voshinin. Of the United States; yes. And under those circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted—made certain hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on few other foreign trips, he also said that—sort of, you know, hinted that that was what.

Mrs. Voshinin. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was before—long before Castro. Right?

Mrs. Voshinin. He was drilling some well—made some very good oil discovery in Cuba.

Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime. Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those three countries.

Mrs. Voshinin. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries. And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first wife and child. I believe she is—I believe Alex was at that time in France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his.

Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then—I'm not sure whether he was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there. Then, he went to Haiti several times.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether he actually made them or not, you don't know——

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite certain, I think, because of this newspaper—so, that's why. And, then, we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the airplane, I mean, but——[Laughter.]

And then I noticed he visited—he mentioned that he visited—I don't know—he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic sometime in between.

Mr. Jenner. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic?

Mr. Jenner. And the general conversation in the community in which you moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be making?

Mr. Jenner. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his experiences in these various places and countries?

Mrs. Voshinin. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway.

Mrs. Voshinin. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell, yes; about—he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from Europe, from Ghana, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture postcards or things he had purchased?

And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't remember—from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card.

You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they moved to Haiti we did.

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present sojourn of his?

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he said, what she said, and then his departure.

Mrs. Voshinin. A few months before their departure, he told us that he is working on getting a job with Haiti and that—I understood—that foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti Government.

Mrs. Voshinin. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he won't even mention where he goes, just when—or sometimes on business trips.

Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought from Haiti a newspaper in which—French newspaper—in French—and it stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co. I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It wasn't a statement. It444 was a letter from the bank saying that $20,000 was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it was by Haitian Government. That's what it was—as far as I remember.

Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money in sisal plantation—[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope.

Mrs. Voshinin. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that."

And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle down, also.

Mr. Jenner. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it?

Mrs. Voshinin. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she was wearing very torn dress—which looked like that Tarzan lady on the films, you know.

Mrs. Voshinin. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything on [laughing], with very little dress on.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked?

Mrs. Voshinin. No, I thought it was more practical—because the branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were shooting.

But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they were taken in the cities for paupers—they were mistaken for paupers, and people would lend them money.

Mr. Jenner. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the impressions that you gained of the Oswalds—as to how they got along whether he treated her well or poorly?

Mrs. Voshinin. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes—was beaten again, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them returning to Russia?

445 Mr. Jenner. No mention of the fact—if it was a fact—that Oswald wanted Marina to return to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and the reaction of Oswald to that?

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was very angry.

Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed against Oswald, you know. Because the why—you know, the reason that he gave. Why would he want that?

Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange about Oswald—my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the communication of Marina—even with Russian people. Because he was so unpleasant to Russians—to those folks around who tried to help her, you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant—and, for some reason, we got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians.

Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in which you moved is concerned?

Mr. Jenner. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De Mohrenschildts—and however you may have liked or disliked them in their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this would be especially true, for example, of Marina—that you'd like to bring her into the circle?

Mrs. Voshinin. I really can't say because we are not very close with that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know—St. Nicholas Parish circle.

Mr. Jenner. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering you—that the normal thing that you expected—would expect of these people——

Mr. Jenner. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian?

Mr. Jenner. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or otherwise to acquire facility with the English language——

Mrs. Voshinin. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country—you know, just do it as soon as possible. Right?

Mrs. Voshinin. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that wouldn't be college in Russia. It might be something——

Mrs. Voshinin. Juniors or something like that. It would give her technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology.

Mr. Jenner. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your friends446 and the people here, her general level of erudition and education and intelligence in comparison with his?

Mrs. Voshinin. But several people said differently. For example, I heard from the ladies—from the Russian ladies of our parish that she was—you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who are more developed——

Mrs. Voshinin. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers, for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a little bit.

Mr. Jenner. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to that time—that is, while they were still in Haiti?

Mr. Jenner. Have you had any contact with the children—either of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt—recently?

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, we were visited by her daughter—by Chris—twice. Once it was before Christmas and——

Mrs. Voshinin. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just—they left on March 15. They left Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Did they say anything during the course of this social visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts—George and Jeanne or Jean or Eugene?

Mrs. Voshinin. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much, I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believe that——

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things. I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.

Mrs. Voshinin. Uh—they said that they were not very hospitable for one thing and, for another things, they—well, they said that George and Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically.

Mr. Jenner. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they said. It is pure hearsay. I understand.

Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and George was because they were shooting their mouths off there—pro-left and against United States—something to that effect; Chris said that George was making the most—the funniest accusations—statements in public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example.

Mrs. Voshinin. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure—and this was, of course, awfully shocking to children.

Mrs. Voshinin. Murdered the President. That's what the children said and I, frankly don't——

Mr. Jenner. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these were rantings or nonsense or——

Mrs. Voshinin. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them by standard measures at all—what they say or what they do even. They require different measures.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs. Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving them consideration——

Mr. Jenner. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay and rumor——

Mr. Jenner. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some judgment.

Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit.

Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source leading us to something that might be helpful—that you would like to suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy?

Mr. Jenner. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might be an incident that occurred.

Mrs. Voshinin. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors that—like everybody else heard—which you have heard definitely—but I don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light on that thing.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to your testimony, which I failed to bring out?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that took place in those discussions that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out?

Mr. Jenner. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out that ought to be on the record?

448 Mrs. Voshinin. I don't remember very well what was off the record and what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on.

Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also say the right—I must say the right—to read over your deposition when it has been transcribed by the reporter—which we hope will be next week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read it.

Mr. Jenner. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her regular rates are.

Mr. Jenner. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say, expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box [laughter].

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely.

Mr. Davis. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back very wonderful memories for me.

TESTIMONY OF IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ

The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy.

Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No. 11130, creating a Commission?

Mr. Jenner. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the United States authorizing the Commission?

Mr. Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the449 Commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to proceed to take your deposition.

Mr. Voshinin. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting engineers.

Mr. Voshinin. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be 1954—I'm sorry to delay you.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it worry you a bit.

Mr. Jenner. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and approximately when.

Mr. Voshinin. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea.

Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now Istanbul in Turkey.

Mr. Voshinin. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where we lived up to this last war.

450 Mr. Voshinin. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany, and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to Yugoslavia. And after—by the end of the war when the Communists were close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to Kempten——

Mr. Voshinin. To Kempten in south Bavaria—[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en—and that's where we met the American Army.

Mr. Jenner. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance reached the Bavarian area and freed you?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in Germany before the American Army.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive a higher education—that is, an education beyond high school equivalent?

Mr. Voshinin. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955.

Mr. Jenner. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City, or its environs?

Mr. Jenner. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to Germany and you escaped then to Austria?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know—and somehow I managed, with other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people who got out.

Mr. Voshinin. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of course, you had to go to the labor office—because otherwise I would be arrested immediately.

Mr. Voshinin. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor force—whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I—when I got out of the train with two451 other fellows—and, of course, it has cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah, to three persons there—including the guard which was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had seen about a hundred people who did the same thing—so, it probably was going—big business there.

Mr. Voshinin. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you know.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; I'm asthmatic—and, therefore, I have to choose my climate.

Mr. Voshinin. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you had any advance acquaintance with anybody here?

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's St. Vladimir—but I'm not sure.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; I think so—but I'm not quite sure that was the name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houston first——

Mr. Voshinin. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky—Paul Raigorodsky.

Mr. Voshinin. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you go to Dallas—we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, but we don't know anybody."

So, he said, "Well, why don't you—we have two men who are able to help you—and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe—George Bouhe." The Russians are referring—joking about Raigorodsky—they call him, "the Czar," here.

Mr. Voshinin. So—he's an old man—and so when we came, then the next day—it was during our vacation in 1955—and so we went to see Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there is a church of our452 denomination here on McKinney and a few other just useful things—nothing in particular.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted—when you came to Dallas, you didn't know anybody?

Mr. Voshinin. Bouhe—and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of liked—and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked.

Mr. Voshinin. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to mix in their affairs——

Mr. Voshinin. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like—didn't like his approach too well.

Mr. Jenner. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a little aggressive in your personal affairs?

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor, you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do.

Mr. Jenner. May I inquire with respect to that—your aversion, at least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal affairs—particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and what not to do?

Mr. Jenner. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain?

Mr. Jenner. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on government—communism—conservatism—whatever it might be?

Mr. Voshinin. No. But my impression is that he is rather conservative—in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot somewhere.

Mr. Voshinin. Uh—well, I don't know. We never talked about any American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any proof otherwise.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas broadened, did it not, as time went on?

Mr. Jenner. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was largely among that segment of the community or society here of people from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries?

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney Avenue—because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English language.

Mr. Voshinin. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim Parish.

The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas Parish—who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor coming from Houston.

Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and—uh—I didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more.

Mr. Voshinin. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting once in 5 weeks—and many other things—and because I believe that the church in this country should be in the language of the country. I think it's natural—it's what it should be in order that our denomination can exist at all—because in two, three generations, the people lose their national language, and then there is no church. Besides that, uh—I—what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national backgrounds and is—it's absolutely senseless in serving the service in some other language than the language in which everybody can understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church—of which we have remained members up to now.

Mr. Jenner. Were these two parishes and the church itself—that is, the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes—is that the medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say—from Russia, from Yugoslavia, from——

Mr. Jenner. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth through this group?

Mr. Jenner. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated?

Mr. Jenner. And you people generally became acquainted, one with the other, in not only your church activity but your general social activity as well?

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah—well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity, because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and my wife met them too, so—but partially, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to or not you sort of kept track of everybody?

Mr. Jenner. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was doing or would like to?

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah—and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and454 still keeps files on everybody—when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody.

Mr. Voshinin. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you."

Mr. Voshinin. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out.

Mr. Voshinin. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on Newton and Throckmorton, as you know.

And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that house and it was torn away—torn down. And now there is a Gulf station on McKinney.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic).

Mr. Voshinin. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian name. These are Georgian people.

Mr. Voshinin. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that in Tsinzadze's house—because my father, I think, goes to confession there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor coming there—but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from Galveston—from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church—who comes there once in 5 weeks or so and they have services.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the community as a group.

Mr. Voshinin. They are not only Russians there. Of course, Russians—you said Russians—Yugoslav, Lebanese—but in addition to that, there are those people—Estonians and Latvians. You see, there are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you see, there is a national differentiation now—yeah—in addition, I can take another nationality. These are people—west Ukrainians and Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia.

So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish—we call that "Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we usually call Bouhe's parish.

These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians. There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are Russians there, there are Yugoslavs—it's true that Bouhe's group has some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church—not very often at least—very rare; but they come to us,455 too—so I don't think they are members any place—those to which I'm talking about.

But in our church there are a lot of—well, not too many Russians there—not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we have some Serbians—people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek people even; we have all the Arabic people here—you know, Lebanese and other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members.

Mr. Voshinin. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through study of church history, became Orthodox.

Mr. Jenner. Is this group—and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's following as well as the group in which you move—are they, by and large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country or in Europe, or Asia?

Mr. Voshinin. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of people with higher education. We have doctors and engineers and——

Mr. Jenner. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of others in the group—in the general sense of the word?

Mr. Jenner. Now, did there move into this community or come into this community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some people by the name—or a man by the name—whose last name was De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, he is an atheist—but he did arrive on the scene or he was on the scene——

Mr. Jenner. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De Mohrenschildt already here?

Mr. Jenner. And was he active among these people—even though, as you say, he's an atheist?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to church.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor—his wife.

456 Mr. Jenner. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by reputation among the people you have described.

Mr. Voshinin. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea.

Mr. Voshinin. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents—and that he was a rich man and——

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil town in Russia.

As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested—I don't know by whom—and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he, as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to get out of prison, and they moved to Poland.

He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school and became a Polish cavalry officer—and he was proudly showing his picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So—but, somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us—I never saw his diploma—but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics.

Mr. Voshinin. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I—you know, I don't like to question people too much.

Mr. Jenner. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is at large in the community we talked about.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. So—but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember, of course, better but—somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me from which school it was, but I don't remember.

After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again—and he went to school in Austin.

Mr. Voshinin. Austin, Tex.—and in Colorado. Now, whether it was Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know. But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned his master's degree.

After that, he went to work in some southern American country or—I think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country—I think it was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else. And—uh—then I think he returned here again during the war.

Mr. Jenner. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the Dallas area or to the United States?

Mr. Voshinin. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some interest—because he was receiving some money from that company even after he divorced his wife—until it finally stopped. But he was—I remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am not a consultant any more."

He was some kind of consultant for that company—I don't know what of, the457 company's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much money, but helping him.

And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money—real big money.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was Cuba. But that must be in 1953—something like that—because I know he was always running around talking about income tax on that money because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which year you receive that and so on.

So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about that sort of thing.

Mr. Voshinin. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with him—so I don't know.

So, shortly after that, after we came here—you see, how we met him, my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University; and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which also would give her the possibility to work in her profession—and not be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job—which was very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist—though we have a dozen of them here. But—so Bouhe gave us—he said, "There is a Russian geologist"—so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good—beautiful office in First National Bank. So——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have anything but you can—I want to bring my files in order, you know, and you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start with—and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and all your work."

So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day—she worked half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he retired—which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my wife worked for Henry Rogatz.

Mr. Voshinin. Well, he divorced his wife—that was 1956, I would say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that winter—1955 or 1956—and finally he divorced her and after—sometimes after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly he closed his office but that must be around 1956.

And then he—after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard for him because he has, you know—he had some kind of accident, as I understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and he has difficulties to concentrate—and, therefore, he has to have an office where he can—you know, some job which he can walk a little, consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's what he explained to me.

Mr. Jenner. Not follow a regimen—be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come back at 2——

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that—just physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work—to look for foreign assignments;458 he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can—if you find the right man you will get a job.

So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there for about a year. So, that was——

Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel——

Mr. Voshinin. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel—because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce and she was living there——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce—and she was also living there?

She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to New York to sell—her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was—so, she was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying she was a French woman.

Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question her about that—because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"—he says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all.

And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't know—and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her father's name was Fomenko, she said—[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o—who was an engineer on the East Chinese Railroad——

Mr. Voshinin. So, after—well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there.

Mr. Voshinin. They were very much in love, you know—and her husband who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"—and there was some kind of—we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment. And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who was running constantly De Mohrenschildt—and all kinds of things like that.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah—cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they divorced—she divorced her husband—and, you know, he is now in an insane—had some459 kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what.

Mr. Jenner. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had somebody try it yesterday. Would you——

Mr. Jenner. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an accurate spelling.

Mr. Voshinin. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know their names.

Mr. Voshinin. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My wife probably knows them.

Mr. Voshinin. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl—and her husband, too. They are quite different from the parents.

Mr. Voshinin. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an assignment in Ghana—which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal stamps—Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a representative of a Swedish company."

Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those jerks—they don't know anything."

Mr. Jenner. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a Swedish company?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in there—but it said, "As a representative,"—and he said that it would be this Swedish company.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company, you know.

Mr. Voshinin. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and specialist in stamps"—and so on.

And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps? Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?"

"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil leases and assign—and sign some kind of contract with them—with the Government of Ghana—in their name, and came back to Dallas.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has interests in Nigeria—and he says, "you know, I am Swedish—so they rely on me."

460 The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are many geologists in Sweden itself—but perhaps they don't have oil specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and the other members of the community think that he was exaggerating or this was all fictional?

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print that newspaper—I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk much more than he actually is.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes, are—or to whom he met—that he was a, you know, big businessman, big oil man, and so on—big specialist. And he wrote an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia, his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he—and it was said, you know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there was—all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after—when he came back from Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on the state of affairs in Yugoslavia—"And I gave quite a lecture there to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and listened to me." You know, that kind of talk.

So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and a second time in Yugoslavia—but I didn't hear it from him. I just heard that as a rumor.

And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden, after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And, you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends and relatives—so he said he stayed there for a week, and——

Mr. Voshinin. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957, 1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that. And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And, besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course, one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City.

Mr. Jenner. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the preparations for the Cuban invasion?

Mr. Voshinin. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean our Cuban invasion?

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion—but there was an invasion of Cuba.

Mr. Voshinin. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it was461 in 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on speaking terms at that time.

Mr. Voshinin. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border, you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American married with a Mexican girl—a very rich man living near Eagle Pass.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people, big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George.

And, from there, he went to Torreon—I don't know why Torreon—and I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by foot—having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the dog—I mean, the dog rode the mule—and that way they traveled, you know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the hills.

And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the top—which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he made the movie—it's real exciting—a colored movie and that red lava flowing—you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it.

And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend—also a very rich man there of Russian background on Haiti.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes, he was—I'm bad on names. His first name was Michel—which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is, I don't know—Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local businessman on Haiti, and he died since.

Mr. Voshinin. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only time she was in the church—because she's more antireligious than he is.

Mr. Voshinin. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt—yes. Because he's not religious, not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. But she——

Mr. Voshinin. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came—and she cried in the church.

Mr. Voshinin. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died after—pretty soon, and they came to the church—which puzzled our pastor very much, Father Royster—and they asked for a church service.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he would like to look for another assignment.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back, or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home there of some people, I think, from Arizona—Hilton or Tilton?

Mr. Jenner. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala while the Cuban refugees were being trained?

Mr. Voshinin. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr. and Mrs. Ballen.

Mr. Voshinin. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every day in Rogatz' office.

Mr. Jenner. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is that correct?

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration of George—which I can't share too well. I think George is a very interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him—taking, of course, 30 or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a certain talent of observation.

You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a few pages from that book.

Mr. Voshinin. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course.

Mr. Jenner. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you anything?

Mr. Voshinin. It may—it was more than a page and it was the official newspaper of the Government of Haiti—which was a contract between the Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.—not George De Mohrenschildt himself—to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the sum of—I don't remember exactly—about $300,000; in which it said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals—oil and other minerals.

Mr. Voshinin. For the country of Haiti—and I think the contract is for 2 years.

I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody—Mrs. De Mohrenschildt—in which it was said that a contract was signed between our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with his wonderful463 wife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more words written about how wonderful she was—so she told—showed it to everybody. Well, that's only human—"They say I'm a wonderful woman!"

Mr. Jenner. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. Voshinin. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It was on a short trip to sign the contract.

Mr. Jenner. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you saw the newspaper account——

Mr. Jenner. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've been talking about, saw?

Mr. Voshinin. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card from them and the Christmas greeting—that was all.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot—they made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't know. I think they mostly traveled by car.

I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas.

And we heard—I don't know from whom we heard—that they met Mikoyan. I imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think—I imagine so. But then I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan—being a top Communist—Mr. Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So, whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow.

Mr. Voshinin. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about? And she told me that it was just meant as a joke—namely that at that time there was a Soviet exhibition of some kind——

Mr. Voshinin. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present there. And one day—and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by Mexican security464 and Soviet security—and it was one moment he was televised—you know, when he was televised—she just jumped out of the crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr. Mikoyan. What are you doing?"

And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave—and she left.

Mr. Voshinin. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the thing is about.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. I wanted to know from her—because if she would go, you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk with her at all.

Mr. Voshinin. But a joke—well De Mohrenschildt and his wife—they are peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does.

Mr. Jenner. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and things they do?

Mr. Voshinin. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And he goes out very often without a tie or open breast—completely open breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state—and without shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see him perfectly dressed.

Mr. Voshinin. He is absolutely unpredictable—and I think even he knows he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to whom he went. My wife told me about that.

Mr. Jenner. From all this, do you have an impression of the De Mohrenschildts—either one of them—as to their possible connection with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality?

Mr. Voshinin. It may be; it may not be. I'm not—you know, now all of us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times.

Mr. Voshinin. We are rationalizing—all of us—at that moment. Of course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Well, when you say "Communist"—an active member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Voshinin. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China.

465 Mr. Voshinin. But of some kind—I don't know what the official name of the organization may be—but it was some kind of Communist Youth Organization.

So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said that it's her influence was to break up—that he break up all his ties with the Communists. And come to the United States.

Mr. Voshinin. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what her first husband did—that they broke off with the Communists and come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party."

Mr. Voshinin. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese Communist regime—because she was saying that they do a lot of good developing her beloved native country.

When she said—mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that."

On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda—because they shot my father."

But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for China or not was, you know, coming back and back.

Mr. Voshinin. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again.

Mr. Jenner. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject?

But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like—she didn't like that.

She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I don't know what.

And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the world government." She was very much for the world government, you know, and things like that—international institutions and—uh; but, on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"—she would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective."

Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will probably tell you.

What his concern—I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before and there was nothing just to save it from.

Mr. Voshinin. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very enthusiastic and—about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before—and that Communists did not build them—but he would somehow always, was always enthusiastic about that.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican—and they argued between themselves the whole time.

Mr. Voshinin. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among themselves—because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective.

Mr. Voshinin. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally came back with a Russian wife.

Mr. Jenner. That was in June of 1962—just to orient you. You saw that item in the newspaper?

Mr. Jenner. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the people you've told us about?

Mr. Voshinin. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard—we visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark.

Mr. Voshinin. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant and bitter fellow—and they wouldn't like to see him again—something like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to meet them either, you know—and especially, you know, you don't like any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum—as he was described to us. He—Oswald.

So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we really need something, you know, an address or some information of that kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that—better than bringing to us anybody.

But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on—they don't have a penny and467 nobody gives them a job, and things like that. And "would you like to meet them?"

Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind of people."

So, I said that very insistently—so the De Mohrenschildts knew better than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There was always a possibility of that kind. But, thank God——

Mr. Voshinin. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually.

Mr. Jenner. You had the impression, did you not—or did you—that the De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to assist them?

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; he was—only one time he was very bitter about Oswald when he beat up his wife.

Mr. Voshinin. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened."

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis player—always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And he devoted always a lot of time to sports——

Well, I know that he—the way he talks, you know, he talks for and against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the Bohemian Club?

Mr. Jenner. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any argument?

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever anybody would say.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he made a lecture in the Bohemian Club.

The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people—Dallasites—who like to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], Bill Hudson—I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met.

Mr. Voshinin. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture.

And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army. That468 was an army composed of Russian—Soviet Russian prisoners of war who wanted to fight the Communists.

And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected a lot of praise for such people like Himmler.

Mr. Voshinin. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all."

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he was just attempting to provoke shock?

Mr. Voshinin. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially there were, at least, three Jewish people there present—Sam Ballen and Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't—was, became red, terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know, would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev was terribly bitter—and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to drink vodka the whole night. So, well—that's the type of person you have.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. Voshinin. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better than I do.

Mr. Voshinin. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l—that's the first name. Second is Z-a-v-o-i-c-o—or k-o—I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere.

Mr. Voshinin. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even warned us against him.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt," he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is."

And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your interest.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian immigrant that—whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did.

Mr. Voshinin. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the Stoneleigh Hotel—and still living there.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff—who worked for George as a secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still was, one part469 of the time, maintaining his office in the Republic Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs. Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to sell.

Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie.

Mr. Voshinin. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now living in Birmingham—you know, near Detroit.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter attended school in Birmingham.

Mr. Voshinin. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank—and that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his secretary—part-time, I think.

Mr. Voshinin. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent—but his wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, and all that.

Mr. Voshinin. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which always strikes me peculiar—I just talked last night with my wife about that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I have to go to Houston on business." And he would say—of course, you don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody, of course, asked him.

And he would say, "You know, I have to go—you know, all my business goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington—and here he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or 5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once talking this with my wife and wondering—what in the hell is he doing in Houston?

You don't get foreign assignments through Houston—not that we know about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know—may not know but may know—who knows something because Professor Jitkoff——

Mr. Voshinin. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston—I know, that,470 too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times that George and Jeanne dropped in—which is not her name. Her name is Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see.

But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston. There is a vague possibility of that—because that always sounded peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e—in Houston.

Mr. Voshinin. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course, before we ever came here.

Mr. Voshinin. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to them—but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City. So, there is a slight possibility—but this is just speculation on my part—that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also to sell them some fashions—though I don't know, but this is possible, you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know, wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all.

Mr. Voshinin. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you know, is going there to buy dictionaries—you know, and things like that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you know.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to the time——

Mr. Jenner. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips—a trip every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time they left, and even might have been prior to 1962?

Mr. Jenner. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston?

Mr. Voshinin. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De Mohrenschildts became a nuisance.

Mr. Voshinin. And then we started recollecting about the De Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So, that probably was late 1962.

Mr. Voshinin. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were being made in September of 1963?

Mr. Voshinin. No; they left—I don't know which month they left for Haiti—but I think they left way before September.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Do you know whether either of the De Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the spring of 1963?

471 Mr. Voshinin. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they are—Kirken.

Mr. Voshinin. Or whatever he calls himself—that's Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken. K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call him Kirten [phonetic].

Mr. Voshinin. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n—or o-n—I don't know. They dropped in when they came from Haiti.

Mr. Voshinin. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they left—they couldn't stand that.

Mr. Jenner. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Voshinin. I think that—uh—well, I heard it from my wife, to tell the truth.

Mr. Voshinin. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens, maybe—or maybe from the children.

I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving ridiculously—he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very unpleasant scenes."

Mr. Jenner. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense?

Mr. Voshinin. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or pertinent?

Mr. Jenner. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week and the week afterwards——

Mr. Jenner. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders—Barefoot Sanders——

Mr. Jenner. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out that you think ought to be on the record?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is making?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes. His brother—he's a professor, according to your information where?

Mr. Voshinin. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth wife.

Mr. Voshinin. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard.

Mr. Jenner. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, I'll let you know.

Mr. Voshinin. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just across the street you can call me any time.

Mr. Voshinin. They're in the same building—two floors higher than me. They can just call me up two stories up.

You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this perhaps written up during the course of the next week.

If you will call in—and also talk to Mr. Sanders—he will know when, and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for examination.

Mr. Jenner. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy.

Mr. Voshinin. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures and for my records to have at home.

Mr. Voshinin. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay—and if there is any way I can help, please—I'd just tell everything I know without any hesitation.

Transcriber's Notes

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source.

Page 48: "Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in" did not show "Evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected here.

Page 156: "When did teach there?" probably is missing "you".

Page 214: "Executive Order No. 1130" should be "11130".

Page 223: "He likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in italics.

Page 231: "Approximately hold old" should be "how".

Page 308: "Section 11, page 8" may be misprint for "Section II, page 8"

Page 330: "Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner" was misprinted as "Mrs. Bates. I am Albert E. Jenner" with "Bates" in small-caps, followed by a period, indicating that Mrs. Bates was the speaker. Changed here.

Page 333: "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin.

Page 363: "special train from" probably should be "training".

Page 369: "It took 2 years of something" was printed that way.

Page 390: "As far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas".

	Page
Preface	v
Testimony of—
Edward Voebel	1
William E. Wulf	15
Bennierita Smith	21
Frederick S. O'Sullivan	27
Mildred Sawyer	31
Anne Boudreaux	35
Viola Peterman	38
Myrtle Evans	45
Julian Evans	66
Philip Eugene Vinson	75
Hiram Conway	84
Lillian Murret	91
Marilyn Dorothea Murret	154
Charles Murret	180
John M. Murret	188
Edward John Pic, Jr	196
John Carro	202
Renatus Hartogs	214
Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel	224
Nelson Delgado	228
Daniel Patrick Powers	266
John E. Donovan	289
Allison G. Folsom, Jr	303
George Donabedian	311
James Anthony Botelho	315
Donald Peter Camarata	316
Peter Francis Connor	317
Allen D. Graf	317
John Rene Heindel	318
David Christie Murray, Jr	319
Paul Edward Murphy	319
Henry J. Roussel, Jr	320
Mack Osborne	321
Richard Dennis Call	322
Erwin Donald Lewis	323
Martin Isaacs	324
Pauline Virginia Bates	330
Max E. Clark	343
George A. Bouhe	355
Anna N. Meller	379
Elena A. Hall	391
John Raymond Hall	406viii
Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina)	415
Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin	425
Igor Vladimir Voshinin	448

	Page
Bates Exhibit No. 1	340
Carro Exhibit No. 1	213
Donabedian Exhibit No. 1	312
Folsom Exhibit No. 1	304
Hartogs Exhibit No. 1	220
Isaacs Exhibit No.:
1	328
2	328
3	328
Siegel Exhibit No.:
1	227
2	228

INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy