The Project Gutenberg eBook of Warren Commission (9 of 26): Hearings Vol. IX, by Warren Commission.

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

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PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume IX: Paul M. Raigorodsky, Natalie Ray, Thomas M. Ray, Samuel B. Ballen, Lydia Dymitruk, Gary E. Taylor, Ilya A. Mamantov, Dorothy Gravitis, Paul Roderick Gregory, Helen Leslie, George S. De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne De Mohrenschildt and Ruth Hyde Paine, all of whom became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962; John Joe Howlett, a special agent of the U.S. Secret Service; Michael R. Paine, and Raymond Franklin Krystinik, who became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald and/or his wife after their return to Texas in 1962.

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY

The testimony of Paul M. Raigorodsky was taken at 11:15 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in his office, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Jenner. Miss Oliver, this is Paul M. Raigorodsky, whose office is in the First National Bank Building, Dallas, room 522, and who resides in Dallas.

Mr. Raigorodsky, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the Warren Commission, and Mr. Robert T. Davis, who is also present, is the assistant attorney general of the State of Texas and is serving on the staff of the Texas Court of Inquiry. The Commission and the attorney general's office of Texas are cooperating in their respective investigations.

The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137 of the U.S. Congress and was then created by President Lyndon B. Johnson by Executive Order 11130 and its members appointed by him. The Commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of depositions. The Commission to investigate all the circumstances of the assassination of President Kennedy.

We have some information that you are particularly well acquainted with the overall so-called Russian emigre community in Dallas, and you are an old time Dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think you do have some information that might help us with respect to—using the vernacular—cast of characters, people who touched the lives of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, as the case might be, and as I understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us?

Mr. Jenner. Helping out in any fashion your information may assist us in that regard?

Mr. Jenner. I think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us your general background, just give us your general background—when you came to Texas and in general what your business experience has been.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I was born in Russia, I lived in Russia until I was, oh, let's see, I escaped from Russia in 1919, went to Czechoslovakia to the university there.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I went to the university there and I am escaping from Russia—I fought against the Bolsheviks in two different armies and then came to the United States with the help of the American Red Cross and the YMCA.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at this point.)

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; and they told me that for the money that they advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the United States for some capacity, so when I came in, I enlisted in the Air Force and was sent to Camp Travis, Texas, and then in 1922 I received an honorable discharge, and because it was I enlisted in time of war, I became full-fledged citizen in 4 months after I arrived to this country. We still were at war with Germany, the peace hadn't been signed. And then I went to the University of Texas in 1922 and graduated in 1924.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Civil Engineering. That's all they were giving, even though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but I took courses in different subjects.

By the way, first, I speak with accent and second, I speak with colds, and you can stop me any time and I will be glad to repeat.

And, that was in 1924—then I went to work in Los Angeles, Calif. I simultaneously married and that was in 1924. I married Ethel Margaret McCaleb, whose father was with Federal Reserve Bank—a Governor or whatever you call it.

Mr. Raigorodsky. It was here in Dallas under Wilson in 1918—he was appointed. At that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. Then, I stayed in California for some—from 1924 until more or less—until 1928. I worked as an engineer with E. Forrest Gilmore Co.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No; that was a California concern, specializing in the building of gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I worked for Newton Process Manufacturing Co. and for Signal Oil and Gas Co.—just, that is, progressive—you see, it was going from one to another, getting higher pay and things like that, and then in 1928 the Newton Process Manufacturing Co. was sold out and three of us, I was at that time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer—we organized a company called Engineering Research and Equipment Co., and we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. Then, I was sent to Dallas because our business was good—I was sent to Dallas.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; growing. I was sent to Dallas and I organized an office here. Then, we moved the company from Dallas and made the Los Angeles office a branch office. Then, I went to Tulsa and opened an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of plants in Louisiana, in Texas, in Oklahoma. Then, I sold out my third in 1929. It was a good time to sell out, and I organized the Petroleum Engineering Co., which company I have had ever since, until just now—it is inoperative.

Then, I continued to—I opened an office in Houston and continued to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of Petroleum Engineering Co. and built about 250 of them all over the world and in the United States—lots of them—even in Russia, though I never went there, we had a protocol (I believe No. 4), under which we were supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants—you know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. The fact is I3 had an order from the Treasury Department and one of them was sunk. Maybe this should be off the record?

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at this point.)

Mr. Raigorodsky. Already then we had the War Production Board, though to begin with it was the Defense Board, and then War Production Board, but I was asked to come to Washington. Now, let's see, which year was it? Probably 1941—before the war.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I was asked to come to Washington to organize the Department of Natural Gas and Natural Gasoline Industries for the United States, which I did, and then I had to open—I worked under DeGolyer. I organized the Department from nothing until I had five offices. We had districts in California and Tulsa and Chicago, Houston and New York, and then in 1943 I resigned, and in the meantime I got ulcer, you know, working like you do, until 11:30 nights, so in 1943 I resigned and came back to my business.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, in Houston. At that time I officed in Houston. By the way, while I was building plants for others, I also built plants for myself for the production of motor fuel, L.P.G. and other pipeline products, and the first plant was built in 1936—the Glen Rose Gasoline Co. The second one was built in 1943—the Claiborne Gasoline Co. Then, I lived in Houston until about 1949 or 1950 and I got sick with my back. You know, I have a very bad back. They wanted to operate on me there but Jake Hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't speak to me unless I come to Dallas, so believe or not, they brought me to Dallas.

That's very interesting what I am going to tell you—in an ambulance from Houston—and there was a Dr. Paul Williams—he told me that without operation he would put me on my feet. I never went back to Houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but I moved my apartment and my offices here to Dallas and I offered people that worked with me, that I would pay them for whatever loss they had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and barrel, I never went back. I was so mad, and I have lived here ever since with one exception. I believe it was in 1952—in 1952 I was asked by—you know General Anderson, by any chance?

Mr. Raigorodsky. He was what we call—there was an organization in Europe called SRE, Special Representatives to Europe. There was an Ambassador Draper at the head of it, and Ambassador Anderson is a Deputy, and in 1952 Ambassador Anderson asked me to come to Europe and help them with production, so I went to Europe to improve the production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the NATO countries.

I was Deputy Director of Production. Now, I think I was getting along all right and again I got sick in my neck this time, so they flew me—they flew me to Johns Hopkins and found out that I had bad neck. By the way, I'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card.

I left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that I didn't return anything, and I had to start to destroy most of the things, and I didn't destroy this one. I stayed there for several months and then I came back here and I have been here ever since, living here, going to different places, going to Europe and I made trips to Europe, Tahiti, Jamaica, and finally bought a plantation4 in Jamaica together with some other friends here and we organized a club called Tryall, T-r-y-a-l-l [spelling] Golf Club, and I go there every year now. That's about all. My wife divorced me in 1943 for the primary reason that I wouldn't retire. I have two daughters, one is Mrs. Harry Bridges. That has nothing to do with the——

Mr. Raigorodsky. That has nothing to do with the Longshoremen. And off the record now.

Mr. Raigorodsky. In fact, I just came from the wedding. That's the second marriage. Then, I have another daughter—maybe you know my son-in-law, Howard Norris?

Mr. Jenner. All right. While living in the Dallas area, and I listened to your splendid career, I assume that—and if this assumption is wrong, please correct me—that the people of Russian descent who came into this area of Texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance, that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest in those people in the community and that in any event you became acquainted with a good many people from Europe who settled in this general area—in the Dallas metropolitan area and even up into Houston?

Mr. Jenner. Will you be good enough to tell me first, and Mr. Davis, in general of the usual—if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in here? How they become acquainted? What is the community of people of Russian descent, and I do want to tell you in advance that the thought I have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. What would be the common manner and fashion in which the Oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, I want you to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests—tell me what your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people coming—like Marina Oswald, for example, into this community?

Let's not make it Marina Oswald—I don't want to get into a specific, but let's take a hypothetical couple?

Mr. Raigorodsky. All right. I can just summarize what happened in the many years that I have been both in Houston and in Dallas.

There are methods of, I would say, of immigration into the communities in Dallas of the Russians I'm talking about. One is via friendship, acquaintanceship somewhere in Europe or in China or somewhere else, but with different Russians and the order by the Tolstoy Foundation—you are acquainted with the Tolstoy Fund?

Mr. Jenner. I think for the purposes of the record, since the reader may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the Tolstoy Foundation.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. They process them, which means that they know all about them before they come into here through their own organization or your different organizations. Like, you have a church in the United States—you have a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that want to help refugees and they don't know who to help5 so they go to the Tolstoy Foundation and therefore the Tolstoy Foundation is able to place many, many Russians in this country, not only in this country but—I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation—but also in European countries. Sometimes they cannot bring them to the United States, not enough money perhaps. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean, that's the No. 1 stamp.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Of approval—in fact, the U.S. Government recognized that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the Tolstoy Foundation as much as $400,000 a year subsidy for this kind of work.

Now, of the other Russians that come here, as I said, they come in through acquaintanceship—most of them.

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's right—correspondence you see. Like we have in Houston—we had a bunch of people coming from Serbia, you know, Yugoslavia—the few we have that left Russia and went to Yugoslavia and then they had to escape Yugoslavia, and there was quite a Russian colony there and some of them drifted to the United States and settled in Houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and lots of other people came to Houston and to Dallas through that channel.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Then, there is a small bunch of Russians that appear from nowhere. I mean, they don't come with any approval from Tolstoy Foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here. They just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where you cannot find one Russian. Now, I would like this off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness off the record at this point.)

Mr. Raigorodsky. Now, because of my—I always believe that even though I am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but I believe that the only way to unite Russians, and I think they should be united in this country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church in Texas—at Galveston—but that church—we didn't like because the Serbian priest, they were coming over there. We couldn't figure it out, whether they were one side of the fence or the other.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, the only fence I know of is between the communism and the anticommunism.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; I have been all my life. So, let's see, maybe in 1949 or thereabouts—I have donated quite a bit of money to the Russian colony in Houston there with the understanding that if they would secure at least 50 percent of additional money from the rest of the people of the Russian colony, that they buy or build a church there, which they did.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Russian—Greek Orthodox. You may call it also Eastern Greek Orthodox. It's the same religion as Greek Catholics have with two main differences—one is the language in which the service is performed is the old Slavic languages against Greek, and then, of course, we have our own Patriarch at the head of our own church.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, no, no; we have in New York—it's Metropolitan Anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country.

6 Mr. Raigorodsky. Then, when we got to—when I came to Dallas we had Father Royster here of the church, I mean, he is a convert. He is an American convert to the Greek Orthodox religion and he approached me because he wanted to build the Church of St. Seraphim in Dallas.

Mr. Raigorodsky. He knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about the church here——

Mr. Raigorodsky. (Handed instrument to Counsel Jenner.) That gives us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here between the Russians who came to this country escaping the Communists or Bolsheviks, at that time we called them—they called themselves the Guard.

Mr. Jenner. The original church that you helped organize, that is referred to as the Old Guard?

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's right, and St. Seraphim you see, because we both occupy the same premises and I was the head of both of them.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; I belong to both churches. In fact I belong to three churches.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, they are entirely different churches. I would like to explain to you—you see, in this country—I'm quite sure you know—I don't know whether you would be interested in what I am going to tell you about?

Mr. Jenner. I am primarily interested in this—from the depositions I have taken and inquiries I have made, my impression is that one of the immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by refugees who come here is through the church.

Mr. Jenner. St. Seraphim's is one parish and then there is another one—George Bouhe's folks.

Mr. Jenner. Or the church he is most active in, and I forget the name of that one—what is that?

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, it is not a third one here—just the two. Now you see, this is the thing I have to tell you then, because that is, again, leads to the same Oswald situation, I believe.

Mr. Raigorodsky. You see, the Father Royster Church is not just for Russians. It is for all the Greek Orthodox, whether they are Serbians, Sicilians, or Lebanese—and there are lots of people that came for the same religion even though their services in their own churches is in their own language, but here they are all in the English language because of Father Royster's.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; there is no question he is an American, he was a teacher at S.M.U. until he resigned. Now, I am a member of this church because it is a Greek Orthodox and I want to help them—that means I pay my dues and I help them with everything they need, in fact, we have a monastery there—that's the one which Father Royster organized of which also I helped them. Now, the difference between Father Royster's Church and Bouhe's Church, as you know it——

Mr. Raigorodsky. St. Nicholas—so that Father Royster belongs to Metropolitan Leonty—Metropolitan Leonty is in New York, and if you may say so, he is a competitor of Metropolitan Anastasia. Metropolitan Leonty is the head of the American Russian Church. You see, before the revolution, we had a church in America, and he was the head of it. Metropolitan Anastasia is the7 head of the Russians outside of Russia, because he is—whether he escaped Russia like all of us—therefore, all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that church.

Mr. Raigorodsky. It is very simple, and as far as I am concerned it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the Bolsheviks—all of the so-called St. Nicholas Church is an old anti-Communist group—period.

Now, the St. Seraphim Church can be infiltrated by anybody because nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there except for the church—not that there is a tie-in because we fought against communism and because of the church. The same thing in Houston, the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought against communism and even though we came through different grounds, some through New York, some through California, but we got there and so we have a church over there.

Now, I personally believe that a church is a church—as long as it is my religion. I will go to one or I will go to another one. It doesn't make any difference to me—I tried to get them together and I didn't succeed in that town. In Houston—I think that is because it is only one church—it is more successful.

Now, I don't know it for a fact, but except as I was told by Father Royster that the Oswalds came through Fort Worth originally. Now, this is hearsay—that I believe they got acquainted with the people by the name of Clark.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I mean, that's all hearsay—I do not know it for a fact. While she is a Russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very close friend of mine, Prince Sherbatoff, who lives in New York and lives in Jamaica. That's where I see him occasionally. Now, it is my understanding that the Clarks told some of their friends—again, this is hearsay, that "Here is a Russian married to an American and they don't even have milk for the babies." Now, that is my understanding. And so, the Russians, I mean of both churches, because there are not many Russians in our church as against another, started to provide them groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact I was told that they had her fix her teeth—her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable.

Mr. Jenner. This would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches that you have mentioned. They are small churches, the people are well acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each other. They seek to help?

Mr. Jenner. They seek to help those who come from Europe as refugees or otherwise?

Mr. Jenner. No, of the Oswalds at all? When did it first come to your attention that the Oswalds were here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. Raigorodsky. The assassination. I am absolutely ignorant of their names—I never saw them before the assassination.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, in fact, I have heard a Russian discussing those things which I tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting—we have yearly meetings.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Once a year—we meet to elect officers. We meet once a year to elect the officers.

Mr. Raigorodsky. It's St. Nicholas. In St. Seraphim I do not attend to any kind of administrative duties. I am just a parishioner, now, because,8 first of all, I believe that sooner or later all of us will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but St. Seraphim. First, because St. Seraphim Church is growing. Well, if there are one or two of us left—it would be fine. You see, how we are at St. Nicholas—we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to have the priest from Houston come here and perform services, but now Houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. So, our priest from Galveston comes up.

Mr. Raigorodsky. And I personally don't like him—so I wouldn't go to the services in my own church on his account.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Now, I went to New York and I discussed with our people from our Synod, you know.

Mr. Raigorodsky. And they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who will be stationed in Houston and then they come here once a month, but the Houston community is down to about 15 families and this is not any better. We have about 10 families, I would say.

Maybe he's not from Galveston—he comes from Houston, but he's the one that was, you know,—can this be off the record—I just throw those notices in the waste basket because I don't want to hear from him.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the Witness off the record at this point.)

Mr. Jenner. Miss Oliver, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet document, single spaced, typed, entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," which I have perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding the organization of St. Seraphim's Church and their attendance at its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other parishioners, and in turn with the Oswalds, it would be helpful to have this statement in the record, and will you please copy it.

Mr. Raigorodsky. All right. "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church."

In April of 1954, a small group of converts to the Orthodox Faith (Rev. Ilya Rudolph Rangel, rector of the already existing Mexican Orthodox Church under the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan, Dimitri Robert Royster, a subdeacon in Bishop Bogdan's jurisdiction, and Miss Dimitra Royster) sought permission of their bishop to organize an English-language Orthodox mission in the city of Dallas. It may be stated parenthetically that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the organization of St. Seraphim's, in close cooperation with St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Church, of which Father Alexander Chernay of Houston was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the Sunday School building at St. Matthew's Episcopal Cathedral.

Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster set out to find a building that would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission. Property was located at the corner of McKinney Avenue (3734) and Blackburn Street. The sale price of the property was $15,000, and since the financial resources of the organizers were limited, Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster went to seek the aid of Mr. Paul Raigorodsky, a member of St. Nicholas' Parish. Mr. Raigorodsky agreed to make it possible for the group to acquire a loan from the First National Bank in Dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an eight-room two-story house). The property was bought in the name of St. Seraphim's Church.

9 Services in English began to be held in June of 1954. Father Rangel conducted occasional services—Sunday Vespers weekly and an early Liturgy once a month. Father Rangel and Subdeacon Royster constructed an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel was arranged on the first floor of the house. After a month or 2 the members of St. Nicholas' Parish were invited to use the chapel, since one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the property.

On November 6, 1954, Subdeacon Royster was ordained to the priesthood by Bishop Bogdan and became rector of St. Seraphim's Church. Shortly afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at 3734 McKinney to St. Nicholas' Church. It was further agreed that the two groups would use the chapel, St. Nicholas' Church 1 weekend per month and St. Seraphim's Church the rest of the time.

In January of 1955 an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted.

Father Hilarion Madison had been ordained by Bishop Bogdan on October 31, 1954, and had worked with Father Rangel as assistant pastor at the Mexican Church until December 1954, when he joined the work at St. Seraphim's and became assistant to Father Royster.

For a few months joint services were held on the occasions when Father Alexander Chernay visited Dallas; that is, Father Dimitri and Father Hilarion concelebrated with Father Alexander.

In March 1955, Bishop Bogdan directed Father Dimitri and Father Hilarion to begin mission work in Fort Worth, taking advantage of the weekends when Father Alexander was in Dallas, in order to extend the benefits of the missionary activity to a group of Orthodox residents of that city. Services were held in the chapel of St. Andrew's Episcopal Church in downtown Fort Worth until the summer of 1956.

In order better to pursue its mission as an English-language parish and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own. A house was bought at 4203 Newton Avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were arranged in the house after considerable renovation. This building served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in March and April of 1961. The house was then converted into a parish hall. In 1962, an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. The house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a rectory.

In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia.

Membership in St. Seraphim's parish has grown from the original 3 to approximately 125 souls. Average attendance at the Sunday Liturgy has increased year by year and is now about 75. A Sunday School with two classes is maintained. Services are held regularly on Wednesday, Saturday, and Sunday evenings, and the Liturgy is celebrated on Sundays and on holy days.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is entitled "Some Historical Information Concerning St. Seraphim Eastern Orthodox Church," when was that prepared?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I have no idea because I have—let's see—the early part of this year I have asked Father Royster if he has anything historical about the St. Seraphim, how it started and everything, or can he prepare something, and he said "No," he already had something, and I said, "All right, send me a copy of it."

Mr. Jenner. Do you understand that Father Royster prepared this historical summary?

Mr. Jenner. And, are you familiar with the events and course of events that are recited in that 1-page summary?

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your knowledge and information, does Father10 Royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the recital reasonably accurate?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. You see, here he said:

"In order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish, "and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, St. Seraphim's Church decided to acquire property of its own."

Well, that's not the reason—the reason is that we couldn't get along together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two churches.

Mr. Jenner. And, the factions split primarily, as I understand your testimony today, over the Father Royster group, and I use that expression not to tag him, well, I'll say the St. Nicholas Church, that would possibly be better, because Father Royster preached in the English language.

Mr. Jenner. And in the St. Nicholas Church or parish the services were said in what language, again?

Mr. Raigorodsky. In the old Slavic language. That's not the principal reason either.

Mr. Jenner. Then, another reason is that the organizers of the St. Nicholas Church were, as you have said, labeled "Old Guard" in the sense that they were composed primarily of those people of Russian origin and other Slavic origins who in Europe fought——

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes—because there are lots of women and children over there, you see, they never fought against them.

Mr. Jenner. More closely knit and they had a preference for the use of the basic language, and that group organized the St. Nicholas Church.

Mr. Jenner. Then, you tended to support it and you have supported it and you are more active in that Church?

Mr. Jenner. You are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of that group, are you not?

Mr. Jenner. You are president of that group, but you are a member of the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a parishioner?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else in the 1-page summary prepared or given to you by Father Royster that you would like to comment upon?

Mr. Davis. I would like to ask—did we ever get to the real reason for the split of the church?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, they just couldn't get along together. I mean, it's purely personality.

You see, Father Royster at that time—that's the main point—Father Royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of Russians it means everything. You see, Father Royster at that time belonged to the Ukraine branch of the church. You see, he couldn't get ordained, but then he tried to, and I tried to help him to be ordained by Metropolitan and Anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so he tried to get in through Metropolitan Leonty. He couldn't quite get in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be ordained by the Russian Ukranian Church, of which Father Joseph Bogdan, B-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the11 Ukranian branch of Metropolitan Leonty's branch of the Russian Church in this country, and so, you see, and that was—now, we have to go back through the basic facts that Russians and Ukranians have never gotten along together, and in fact, Ukranians were separative—they wanted to separate from the rest of the Russians and he will have their church to become part of their parish. That was just going against the grain of every Russian.

Now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, I mean verbal fights, of course—no physical violence of any kind, but verbal fights, and Father Royster decided to pull out and he asked me if I would help him, and I said, "Sure, as long as it is a Greek Orthodox Church," and that's how it happened.

You see, some of the statements—like he said, "In September of 1958 the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of Bishop Bogdan to that of Metropolitan Leonty, the Russian Metropolia."

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; in the United States. I mean, those are minor, but substantially, it is correct—what he said.

Mr. Jenner. With those explanations, Miss Oliver, will you please copy the historical statement into the record?

Mr. Jenner. These differences of opinion, historical, religious, and otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the views of an individual who is a member of St. Nicholas Church with respect to individuals who regularly attended St. Seraphim's?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as I understand it, who helped Mrs. Oswald, were people from St. Nicholas Church.

Mr. Raigorodsky. So—I don't know how that came about—perhaps she is Russian. I can understand so much—she is a Russian and St. Nicholas is Russian and St. Seraphim is Eastern Orthodox.

Mr. Jenner. Did I understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners, by and large, of St. Nicholas are exclusively anti-Communists?

Mr. Jenner. There are other reasons, but that substantially is one major motivating force?

Mr. Jenner. And while they would be interested in assisting persons who are of Russian birth, who would come into this community, would they also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be the political views of someone who came fresh from Russia, with in turn the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in America call the Communists in control of Russia, that these people in St. Nicholas would have an aversion to them?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Correct. You see, he asked the question you are getting to—that is the first time I heard she was Russian—they told me they were interrogated by different branches of the Government and that is the first time they told me that they know of Marina Oswald, how they helped her and everything else and I asked them—"How did it happen?" Now, she went to the church to have her child christened.

Mr. Raigorodsky. That caused them to think and to know, as they understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life.

12 Mr. Raigorodsky. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to sneak out with that child to be christened and since Communists are atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be Communists.

Mr. Jenner. You heard afterwards that Marina had had her child baptized in St. Seraphim's?

Mr. Jenner. And those persons then in your church, the St. Nicholas Church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she believed in the Lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a Communist, because Communists are atheists?

Mr. Jenner. Whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was——

Mr. Raigorodsky. Correct—which was that the Communists may have been—if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way to get into the good graces of the Russian Church community.

Mr. Jenner. So that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one thing?

Mr. Raigorodsky. You see—I don't trust them in any kind of a condition or any kind of a statement that they make. It doesn't make any difference, but in fact, I know it isn't truthful—it's just like Mr. Gromyko lying to President Kennedy sitting in his office, you know, lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he lied. I don't have to tell you all about what Communists do and how they operate.

Mr. Jenner. Did there in due course come into this community a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, let's say that I met George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas while I was coming here, just—you know—just occasionally to see my friends, probably about, I'll say 15 or 17 years ago, somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. Raigorodsky. He is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known, and he told me there was a Russian here—do I know him, and I said, "No; I hadn't heard about him." That's how I met him—at a party.

Mr. Jenner. In this 17-year period from that initial acquaintance to the present time, had you come to know George De Mohrenschildt and acquire some knowledge of his origin and background?

Mr. Jenner. Would you please recite it to us—who is he, what is his history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning the business associations or contacts you may have had with him?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.

Mr. Raigorodsky. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans and they were in the service of the Czar for generations and generations and were considered13 Russians. Most of them were barons, you know, and I don't know whether George's family were or not, but the "de" Mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title.

Mr. Raigorodsky. The "de"—yes; it signifies that. Now, I understand that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, I believe, at the University of Chicago.

Mr. Raigorodsky. It might be, now, but at that time when I first learned it—he was at the University of Chicago.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No—not from me. Now, when I first knew George he was an engineer in charge of the operations of the Rangley Field in Colorado. Then, he quit the job and went into the business of his own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil operator.

He was married, as far as I know, three times. I didn't know his first wife, but I know his daughter by the first wife.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; they live here at the Maple Terrace, which is next door to the Stoneleigh Hotel. The second wife was—that's where this was when he married the second time—it was to a daughter of the Sharples, S-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling].

Mr. Raigorodsky. No; we called her something else—it will come to me—just leave that blank. They had two children, both of them were spastic.

Mr. Raigorodsky. The boy. The son is still alive, and it's my understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as I understand it, $30,000. Of course, you have the records.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Then, there were two trusts set for the children and when one of the children died, George De Mohrenschildt wanted to claim the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts, but at the request of some of the friends of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and my friends, I called George and told him that if he pursues his suit, that his name will be mud and he can never come back to Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. How would that be enforced? You mean never come back to Dallas and join this Russian community?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Of the social group that they were here originally. You see, he took it differently when I called him. I can tell you it was a hornet's nest is what it was. Anyhow, he withdrew the suit—whether I did it or for some other reason, but I think Mrs. Crespi can give you more information than that.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Mrs. Crespi, C-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. She is the one who asked me to intervene if I can. I believe I could have at that time because George owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time. The last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly.

Mr. Jenner. He was divorced from the Sharples girl whose first name you can't recall at the moment?

Mr. Jenner. Does the name J-h-a-n-a [spelling] or Jeanne serve your recollection?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I don't know anything about her except that she was a successful dress designer, I believe, in California, and that she had, and I may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our form of government. I don't know whether she is a Communist, Socialist, Anarchist or what.

Mr. Jenner. And did it come to your attention that his present wife was either born in China or went at a very early age, an infant age—came to China?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I don't know anything about her except I know that she is part Russian, French—something else, but you see, she never expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of Americans, you see, and they would ask me why? What does it mean? You know, for some reason or other—and I would like this off the record.

(At this point statement by the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, to Counsel Jenner off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. What is the reaction of the Russian community in Dallas to the De Mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political views?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, the Russian community here, it was, you say—"And political views?"

Mr. Jenner. The views separately of George De Mohrenschildt, and then his wife, Jean.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, would you believe me if I tell you that after all this time, I do not know the political views of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Jenner. Tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? He seems from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times, he appears to have traveled extensively in Europe, Mexico, Haiti, the Dominican Republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. We would like to know something from you as a—if I may use the expression but in a sense of compliment—a member of the "Old Guard," and you have had some contact with this man for 17 years now—what is he or what makes him tick?

He had contact with the Oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with you—political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the political views of his wife, Jeanne, who is tolerant? Is he just a character?

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's a question. You see, talking about, and believe me,15 that's the only time—first of all, I've got George De Mohrenschildt to become a member of the Petroleum Club.

Mr. Jenner. And was that a social circle of Russian emigre, a certain set of Russian emigre?

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, no, that's the thing which both churches have against them. He belonged to the church, but he never sent in a donation.

Mr. Jenner. He belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially?

Mr. Raigorodsky. No, that's right, from that point. Politically he never, and I can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me any political questions or give me his views except one time when he went to take the trip—the walking trip.

Mr. Jenner. From the border of the United States and the Mexican border down to Panama?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Except one time, you see, except one time—he was elated because he met Mikoyan in Mexico.

Mr. Raigorodsky. You know—just trying to show what—he always brags about things—he was bragging about many things.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Very much so, and he brags about the fact that he met Mr. Mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and I asked him why didn't he shoot this b——d?

Mr. Raigorodsky. He just smiled and smiled with that understanding smile, you see, as if I were taking away from his achievement.

Mr. Jenner. He was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative in his attire in the sense of nonconforming?

Mr. Raigorodsky. He is—he is absolutely nonconformist—that's the best definition I can give you.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a by-the-Baltic German accent.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I say her's would be Polish, but you know, it is very hard to say. I don't think she was born in Russia, I think she was born in France or somewhere, or maybe China, but George's was definitely, because he was born in Russia. Now, to me George—now this is again my idea——

Mr. Raigorodsky. I don't believe that George is a Communist, because I don't think that the Communists would stand for the behavior of George in the United States. I mean, that is the only thing that I can give him credit for. To them it is a religion. You see, communism is a religion to them and they lead, as we should, I understand they lead the Spartan life, I mean, they are supposed to, but George led anything but the Spartan life in this country.

16 Mr. Raigorodsky. I had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when he would drill a well and I would buy a certain portion of the deal, maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. He had one dry hole I can remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in Haiti.

Mr. Raigorodsky. To the banker—the banker—Commercial de Haiti. You can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you want [referring to deponent's file]. He writes all the time—he was trying to get a $100,000 corporation set up here to do business with Duvalier, the head of the Haitian Government in the making of hemp and they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. I believe that I have reported that incident and then there are lots of Russians here and some others told me about that trip of George's.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Down through Mexico, and I believe I called the FBI and told them. I said, "I don't know whether it means anything or nothing."

Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. John De Menil is a very close friend of mine. He is the financial head of Schlumberger Co. and when I wouldn't go with George in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as to who may be interested, so I suggested John De Menil because the Schlumberger Co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every country in the world—you know what I am trying to say?

Mr. Raigorodsky. And that he might be interested in going in business in Haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and nothing came out of it because John De Menil finally turned him down after the investigation.

Now, I am very sorry that in the past years I have had some correspondence with George but I didn't keep it, but then when things began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, I thought I better keep a file on him.

Mr. Jenner. Apparently this Haitian venture was in gestation or in the works as far back as 1962, is that what you understand?

Mr. Raigorodsky. He was a consultant to the Yugoslavian Government. In fact, he was sent to Yugoslavian Government with the blessing of our Government, maybe—I don't know under what protocol that we were helping the Yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me—I can say this—I don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him because I was with the Government on a couple or two or three times, but instead of that he goes to Jake Hamon, a close friend of mine, and asked him for a recommendation on that job. Jake said he would not give him a recommendation unless he consults me. That surprised me that he wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. What could I do? Of course I said, technically on the job he is perfectly all right, I mean, he is a good engineer—good petroleum engineer.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes, without any question. You know, that field is quite a field—that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job, and as far as I know he quit the job—he was not fired.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with his reputation in this community for truth and veracity?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I'll say there is no other way around this—I don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person.

17 Mr. Jenner. Bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of morals, character, and integrity—is that bad or good?

Mr. Jenner. And his reputation in the community as a man of capability in the profession which he pursues?

Mr. Raigorodsky. No; petroleum engineer—good. His knowledge of languages is good. In fact, he taught at the University of Texas. I believe he taught French or Spanish after he went to school there, where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also went there at the same time.

Mr. Jenner. What is his reputation in the community as being a loyal American? If he has a reputation?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I don't think he has any reputation of that type. Now, remember there are two—he is in a different social circle now, you see, than he was before with his second wife.

Mr. Raigorodsky. In fact, if I'm not mistaken how he got to the Oswalds was through the Clarks. You see, the Clarks of Fort Worth were his friends.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No; he met them—I don't know where he met them, but they were not in the so-called Dallas social circle that he was originally in with his wife because of her being a Sharples.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know of any business interests of De Mohrenschildt in Houston?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; he told me that he was going to see Herman and George Brown—they are brothers.

(Discussion between Messrs. Jenner and Davis and the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, off the record.)

Mr. Raigorodsky. George has been friends with many, many influential people in many cities.

Mr. Jenner. Is he a namedropper—is he a man who seeks to be friends of important people?

Mr. Raigorodsky. No—he was my friend, I was his friend—he was Jake Hamon's friend and Jake Hamon was his friend.

Mr. Davis. No; how often did George De Mohrenschildt see Herman and George Brown?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I don't know, but he has been going to Houston quite often. In fact, he told me that everything is settled—he is going to deal with them in that Haiti situation, and then Herman died.

Mr. Jenner. What information do you have regarding his interests or business in Houston—I take it that it came from his making statements to you?

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's right, except in his dealing with John De Menil, in which John De Menil sent me the copies of the letters—you see, there is a copy from John De Menil.

Mr. Jenner. Where do you have information as to whether he was required to or did make regular trips, a trip every 4 or 5 weeks, to Houston?

18 Mr. Jenner. He appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in Houston by the name of Andre Jitkoff?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; that's right—also his daughter is my—I'm a godfather to Mr. Jitkoff's daughter.

Mr. Jenner. Well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about Mr. Jitkoff's background.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Jitkoff—he is of the "Russian Old Guard," as you call it.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I would say around 60 now, no, maybe he is younger—let's see, his daughter—he probably is closer—is 50 some odd years—55.

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's right. The first I knew of Jitkoff, he was a tennis pro at the River Oaks Country Club.

Mr. Raigorodsky. In Houston; and he retired several years ago and he is teaching Russian.

Mr. Jenner. What about Mrs. De Mohrenschildt? Is she an athletically inclined person?

Mr. Jenner. And does each of them have an interest in any other sport to the extent of engaging in the sport itself?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I don't remember anything about that, but they always played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they played tennis all the time.

Mr. Raigorodsky. At the Maple Terrace. You see, it is owned by the same people—the Stoneleigh, Maple, and now there's another Terrace—the Tower Terrace.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the Leo Corrigan's son-in-law, Jordan.

Mr. Jenner. In addition to being an expansive person, is De Mohrenschildt a generous man?

Mr. Jenner. Is he the type of person who would seek, out of the goodness of his heart, to help people like the Oswalds or persons in like circumstances?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I would say he will do it because he wants to show what a grand person he is. You see, that would be my quick judgment. It would be different from the other Russians, you see, because they were appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk.

Mr. Jenner. That is, De Mohrenschildt might not have been sincere, while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and sincere about it?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes. Even though in a joking way. Maybe, like, at a big party—I'll never forget that, you see. It was for the first time I met him. It was at the Brook Hollow Golf Club before it burned down, at a big party and you know. I had some friends of mine, the Jake Hamons and the others, and suddenly George, you know, he always managed to do it, he always said, "There's a spy in the crowd." You know, he would say, "There's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever it is. So, we all started to say, "There's a spy in the crowd," and somebody asked me, "Are you the spy?" And I said, "Maybe," but that's the way he always did—just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest, but we didn't know how much truth there was to it.

Mr. Jenner. Liable to do anything because he is eccentric. He has no control over himself, really?

Mr. Jenner. Would you have the impression that De Mohrenschildt is the type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he might hesitate to do himself?

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business in which he is engaged in Haiti?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, from the point of view of the U.S. Government, it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with Haiti. I think the other day—it was the first time that we granted them a loan or aid, but we wouldn't deal with Duvalier, but George moved there—he is there, and moved his furniture.

Mr. Jenner. You have given me a file and it is entitled "George De Mohrenschildt". I have been browsing through it. It seems to relate almost exclusively to the Haitian venture, and I don't see anything else in it.

Mr. Jenner. If this was June of 1963, this was before the events of November 22—I gather from your first sentence of this letter that he had been in Dallas?

Mr. Raigorodsky. After this—that's right; I see it is 1963, after this fiasco here, then he came back to Dallas—which I was called on.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the "fiasco here in Dallas" I take it from your testimony, was the suit brought by De Mohrenschildt against his wife Didi, and that suit was brought in Philadelphia and it had to do with the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for George's son.

As I recall, friends of the Sharples family appealed to you, or maybe sued directly, to see what you could do to help out?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Mrs. Pio Crespi is a very well known person here. Her husband is retired; he has a company called Crespi & Co.—a cotton exchange brokerage. She is a close friend of the Sharples family.

20 Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is the Duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy plums" in Haiti. That's exactly what he told me. That's why he wanted to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to Haiti and build plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. You see, it so happened that I believe it is very hard to be a specialist in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and all my business is in oil. If he came with an oil deal, I might be interested.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up?

Mr. Jenner. And things that amuse him are the sort of things that amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent—in our teens?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes, sir. And he does it so engagingly. I mean, his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh—he enjoys it. You see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned.

Mr. Raigorodsky. There is no word for that—very engaging, I suppose would be the nearest.

Mr. Jenner. I think you mentioned, but I failed to pursue it, I think De Mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in 1963?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, it is a corporation—here is a chart of what he was planning to do.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken from your file. There is handwriting on the chart—is that George De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. And have you attached to the chart the envelope in which the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked September 12, 1962, at Dallas, Tex., and is this an outline?

Mr. Raigorodsky. You see, "Port-au-Prince, August 27, 1962." He shows he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking, cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill, weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available for these industries."

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any information that he is surveying the physical characteristics of the surface? Of the entire Haitian area.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, that's what my understanding was, that that is how he got in so close to them—because it was one of his consulting jobs.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your impression that his Haitian proposal was legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. What I am getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior character?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, here's some more of the same thing, which I think might be helpful. Here's what information which they send to John De Menil.

Mr. Jenner. Would I have your permission to have these documents in your file duplicated?

Mr. Jenner. I'll tell you what would be helpful to me—if you would have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in which it was originally?

(At this point the witness, Mr. Raigorodsky, called his secretary, Mrs. Louise Meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to comply with Counsel Jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as requested, Mrs. Meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:)

Mr. Raigorodsky. This shows the Haitian holding company. It shows what they are trying to do. There is correspondence with the bank and everything.

Mr. Raigorodsky. You can have them both—the other one is on the well operation.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Have you ever talked to Mr. H. Gordon Calder. Mr. H. Gordon Calder is an oil man in Shreveport, La. He is a close friend of mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend I had in this country. We went to the University of Texas together. That's over 40 years ago. His last job before he quit, he was the head of the Southern Production Co., quite a large organization, and George has been working on several oil deals with Gordon Calder, and Gordon Calder has been more in contact with George than I have in the last several years. I see that Gordon Calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number and address of Mr. Calder, in fact, if necessary, I can call him and he will come over here.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Professor Jitkoff is acquainted with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Basil—he is a Russian. His father was a general in the Russian Army. He has a brother. Basil Zavoico has been—his primary business has been what I would say is a bank and insurance consultant on oil matters. He has been with Prudential Insurance Co.; he has been with Chase National Bank. He was their consultant; and he has been in a business of his own mostly connected with oil financing.

22 Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether he would be acquainted then with George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh, yes; I'm sure that they had some oil dealings. Now, both Gordon Calder and Zavoico probably had more dealings with George than I had.

Mr. Jenner. And his place is known as "Cronomere"? Is there anything that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission, first, in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy; and secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and interests of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, the only thing I can say that I was told—it is a hearsay—that after meeting Marina Oswald—the way Russians met, there was a party somewhere.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Here in Dallas, and at that party, there were several Russians, and they claimed that in walks George De Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald and her husband. That's the only thing that out of everything that they told me that stuck in my mind.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; I'm not quite sure—there were quite a few other Russians, but it was George who brought the Oswalds into the party.

Mr. Jenner. We have had some off the record discussions all in the presence of Miss Oliver and Mr. Davis. Is there anything that occurred during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which I have failed to bring out.

Mr. Raigorodsky. No; if it was pertinent I would not have taken it off of the record.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Would you care to know what my opinion of the assassination is, or is that just an opinion?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I have read—I'm quite sure everything that you have read, and you read probably more than I did because you have these interrogations.

There are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like Oswald, would be allowed to do the things in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in that sort of an opinion. What is the basis of your opinion in that respect?

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well, I have studied communism and I have watched them operating, you know.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Raigorodsky, off the record.)

Mr. Raigorodsky. Well—the fact that they gave you all of the record, they gave you all of the records on Oswald, that he was running around in Russia, marrying a Russian woman, that she was allowed to go out of Russia—I know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person whom Americans marry to come for several years. Here, everything was (snapping his fingers) so—just23 like that. It just reads too much like a fairy tale. I mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things which he received in Russia and in this country.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Let's do it this way—I have your file which you have kept marked "Re: George De Mohrenschildt."

Mr. Jenner. The bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate telegram, and the upper portion consists of some French language or what might be clippings from a French newspaper. It is marked with a circle No. 1 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1].

Mr. Raigorodsky. Oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the United States of Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles. You see, he was trying to prove to me that Mr. Charles persona grata, both in Haiti and in the United States and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information about him.

Mr. Jenner. The next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a letter dated July 27, 1962, addressed to Mr. Jean de Menil of Houston, Tex. It is marked with a circle No. 2 [document is in evidence as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5]. It has a typewritten signatures on the second page, "G. De Mohrenschildt." I see in the upper right hand corner, written in longhand "copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."

Mr. Raigorodsky. That's right, and this was the—outlining a project in Haiti and the West Indies.

Mr. Jenner. And is that the next sheet which is entitled: "Haitian Holding Co.," dated August 1, 1962, and is on the letterhead of George De Mohrenschildt? Petroleum geologist and engineer, Republic National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.]

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline, and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned.

Mr. Jenner. The outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page carbon copy of a letter I have heretofore identified?

Mr. Jenner. And there's also enclosed with it what appears to be the mimeographed one piece sheet I have described, dated August 1, 1962, that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "G. De Mohrenschildt." Is that his signature?

24 Mr. Jenner. And is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 3.]

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. Then, next is a letter on a letterhead of—would you read that for me?

Mr. Jenner. And it is dated July 31, 1962. It is addressed to Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "Clemard Joseph Charles." This seems to be a duplicated letter. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2.]

Mr. Jenner. The next document consists of—it looks like an organization chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.]

Mr. Raigorodsky. It isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart of the different projects that he planned to have in Haiti.

Mr. Jenner. Did you retain the envelope [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 8], in which that document, marked with a circled No. 5, was transmitted to you, too?

Mr. Jenner. And is it the next document which in turn is clipped to what I called an organizational chart? [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 10.] And just a diagram?

Mr. Jenner. Next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 7]. It appears addressed to Lt.—is that what that is?

Mr. Jenner. It should have been "De" Mohrenschildt and it is "Lt. Mohrenschildt, 6628 Dickens, Dallas."

Mr. Jenner. The next document [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 16], appears to be a copy of a letter on August 7, 1963, addressed to "Mr. Jean de Menil," with a typewritten signature "George De Mohrenschildt." On the face of that document appears more handwriting—do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. And the "Dear Paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that letter is you?

Mr. Jenner. And that includes his handwriting on a notation in the upper right hand corner, "Copy for Mr. Paul Raigorodsky", correct?

Mr. Jenner. The next appears to be the original of a letter on blue stationery, the letterhead of which is "3363 San Felipe Road, Houston, Tex." It has a typewritten signature, "John de Menil" and then apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it?

Mr. Jenner. And he is making a report to you and also then decided he is not interested?

The next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated August 8, 1962, with the typewritten signature of John de Menil. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 9.] It is addressed to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt in Dallas. You received that, did you?

Mr. Jenner. And it was transmitted to you by Mr. de Menil's secretary; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. The next is also a carbon copy—this is a letter to Mr. George De Mohrenschildt from Mr. John de Menil and it is dated August 27, 1962, with a copy to Paul Raigorodsky. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-B.]

Mr. Jenner. And then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. The envelope [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10], is postmarked in New York May 11, 1963. The envelope is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, First National Building, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. On the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A]?

Mr. Jenner. And is that [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 10-A] in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. The next is an original of a letter addressed to Raigorodsky, dated June 6, 1963, signed, "Jeanne and George de M." [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11.]

Mr. Jenner. Is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that letter in his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. It was written on the stationery of a hotel, Hotel Sans Souci. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. [Raigorodsky Exhibit No. 11-A.]

The next document is an original letter from the De Mohrenschildts, it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "George and Jeanne" over the typewritten signature "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt," and is addressed to "Dear Paul." Up here in the right hand corner is "Port-au-Prince, September 12, 1963, c/o American Embassy." [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 9.]

Mr. Jenner. There is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to you, it looks like that is his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. And is that the envelope in which the letter of September 12, 1963, was enclosed?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked in New York, May 18, 1963, to which he has made reference in his testimony. It is addressed to Mr. Paul M. Raigorodsky, and it looks like fifth floor, First National Bank Building, Dallas, Tex., and it has a stamp on it, "May 20, 1963." That is a rubber stamp imprinted, accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note on "Racquet & Tennis Club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "May 18, 1963." [Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 14 and 14-A, respectively.]

Mr. Raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in Mr. De Mohrenschildt's handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated June 30, at Miami, and signed "Jeanne and George De M.". [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 4.]

Mr. Jenner. And did you receive it in due course subsequent to June 30—of what year?

Mr. Raigorodsky. 1963. This is very interesting—this is a map of Haiti. You see where he sent me—he said "Our Shada Concession."

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Raigorodsky, has opened up a Texaco map of Haiti, [De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11] Republica Dominicana on the face of the map—there is handwriting—do you recognize that handwriting?

Mr. Raigorodsky. I can't answer that—it probably is mentioned in one of the letters.

Mr. Raigorodsky. Yes; and you see, he has written in here "Oil possibilities Mellon Concession" and "Our Shada Concession."

Mr. Jenner. Now, I state for the record, Mr. Raigorodsky, has authorized us to make a copy of papers I have identified and identified them in the record, so one thing is helpful—I don't have to go to the trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and secondly, in the event—if we seek to question Mr. De Mohrenschildt I will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of this questioning of you.

Thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and I would like the record to show that Mr. Raigorodsky appeared voluntarily, also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to the U.S. attorney's office about 10:30 a.m. and then we repaired to here, his office, and it is now 2:15 in the afternoon and he has been under questioning during that whole period of time. I appreciate this personally and I know the Commission will. I offer in evidence the foregoing documents as Raigorodsky Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, 10-A, 10-B, 11, 11-A, 14, and 14A.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I hope to help you in some way, but I'm just as lost at this moment as I was then.

Mr. Raigorodsky, Miss Oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. That is a privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. You may also have a copy by purchase of a copy from Miss Oliver and whatever your deposition is with respect to all these alternatives.

Mr. Raigorodsky. I would like to have a copy for sure, and I may, when you might note in spelling in some of the names, I will be glad to help you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)

The testimony of Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie) was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. Ray. We didn't get your letter until Monday because you addressed it to Blossom, Tex. We are on mailing Route 3, Detroit, Tex., and we are on the Blossom, Tex., telephone exchange.

Mr. Liebeler. Mrs. Ray, I would like to take your testimony at this time. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you before we start.

28 Mr. Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Mr. Liebeler. He sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive that letter and copies of such documents?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until Sunday.

Mr. Liebeler. Under the rules of the Commission each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he has to testify and I suppose technically since you did not get the letter until Monday you do not have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and I presume you are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to inquire of you today, Mrs. Ray, concerning the events at a party at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford which was held in Dallas in December 1962, as the events at that party related to or involved Lee Harvey Oswald. We also want to question you about meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in Dallas during the period shortly after December 28, 1962. Before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. Ray. Let me see, in 1943, in time war; Germans come and taken over Stalingrad and pick me up and send to Germany.

Mr. Liebeler. When the German troops reached Stalingrad they picked you up and other Russian people?

Mrs. Ray. Yeah; lots of Russians and they send us to Germany in camp, in concentration camp, labor camp, I guess, more.

Mr. Liebeler. How did it come about that you came to the United States; what were the circumstances of your coming here?

Mrs. Ray. Well, I met my husband was town of Wiesbaden being liberated by Americans and that's the first time we ever saw American people and then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send us to Russia.29 At this time we been working for Americans, soldiers, something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we be able to go back to Russia and I met my husband and when I met him, well, I lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at home, no place to go and my husband tell me that I can marry American man and I said, "No, I cannot marry American man because Russia will not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get marry and my husband went to Paris, France, to have permission that they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where I am. I have to hide at this time because Russia picking up and sending all back to Russia, and my husband find me room in Germany where I have to stay until we get married. Well, they—Russians don't give me permission for me to get marry and later on I have to go up and became as a displaced person and in 1945, there, U.S. Government said could marry to displaced person and I marry my husband in May 1945. Yeah, I guess 1945 or 1946—let me see, yeah, in 1945 because—or 1946. I guess. I'm sorry.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; my husband and I used to travel when war still going on, you know, they move and I move with him; that will be something come. We go to Frankfurt; I went with him to Frankfurt. If he have to move I go with him. Three Russian girls, us, together, and I did in 1946. I guess. I marry. I forget now when, I am very sorry.

Mrs. Ray. War ended in 1945 and year later I married; that's in 1946, I'm sorry.

Mr. Liebeler. And then you came to the United States with your husband, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell us how you came to the party and how you met Oswald and to the best of your recollection just how it happened.

Mrs. Ray. Well, I wrote short stories for magazine and Mrs. Harris, Zena Harris, Ed Harris from Georgetown read that story and find my address and found me Russian. Until this time I never been have any—nobody there from Russian and I don't have not nobody.

Mrs. Ray. No; except some friend in New York what we used to live in Germany together and we write each other Mrs. Harris called me on phone and said that—"I know you are Russian and I like to talk to you." I said, "Well, I am glad to know somebody Russian, just about forget how to talk to Russian." She said she like to come over and see me. I tell her she welcome to it. They did come visit us and she told me that they always get together in Dallas, lots of Russian girls and Russian men have a party and she like for me to come to this party. I said, "Well, I like to know, you know, more people Russian" because I never have contact with nobody. Well, she calling on phone from my house to Mr. Ford, Declan Ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "I found one Russian" and said "I like for her to coming to this party." They already planned this party. She asked her time when it's going to be. She said on Friday—Friday, I kind of think 29 before New Year and she said she welcome to it and said we going to have one Russian girl what just come back from Russia. She said she just coming with man in United States.

Mrs. Ray. Mrs. Ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at this party that just come back from Russia. Well, it's home and you like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know——

30 Mrs. Ray. Just glad to meet somebody. Well, we promised that we will come and Friday we go to this party and Mr. and Mrs. Harris and we went to Mr. Ford house. When we coming there, there's lots of people.

Mrs. Ray. Between 25, 30 people; I cannot tell exactly but it's lots of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know what's going on in Russia. First things I like to know this girl and this man. Well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this Marina, she's come back from Russia. Well, I started talk to her and asking how she like it here. She said she liked very well. I said, "Did you have any difficulty to come to America?" She said, "No, she don't have any at all." Very much surprise me because I not been able to do much with my home. I not be able to send them packages or—I said, "Oh, that's very good; I guess now it's change and get better," I said.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I have a niece what I been—she write my mother passed away and I lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when Germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay and I together and then they take me away. My mother and these two children stay. Then this child, one got killed; still war going on and one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my mother.

Mrs. Ray. No; at this time, no; they moved. At this time she lived in Tchewchankowskiy, Rudnek. That's pretty close to——

Mrs. Ray. That's lots salt mines there and that's close Kharkov. That's not too far from Kharkov.

Mr. Liebeler. I interrupted your story about your conversation with Marina. Would you go on with that?

Mrs. Ray. Yes. After she told that she don't have any difficulty to come here, you know, I, well, everybody interested. I told her, I said, "I am glad; I guess get better because if they let you so easy to get out Russia then that's get little bit better now and I guess they better friends." I said, "Maybe later on"—I let be get contact now with niece. I been trying call her on telephone. I never can get her on phone. I said, "Maybe I can calling her and talk to her now" and I never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you want to get contact with and then another things I found out that her husband is—she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody and he speak just perfect Russian.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; just perfect; really surprised me and I said "How come you speak so good Russian. How long you been in Russia?" He said well, he don't been there too long. He said he been just 3 year. I said "You just been three——

Mrs. Ray. Three year. I said "You speak good Russian." I asked him, I said "Do you like" no; I asked "How you like Russia?" He said "Oh, it's all right." But he don't have much to say, you know, but he always staying close to Marina and every time you asking something he seems to be one to answer it. If someone say where you from, he tell you. Maybe he just plain wanted let you know he speak Russian or something. I don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere.

Mr. Liebeler. When you would ask Marina a question Oswald himself would want to tell you the answer?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to learn Russian?

Mrs. Ray. No; I don't but I give him credit for speak so well Russian. I said "I been here so long and still don't speak very well English"; I said "You speak fast Russian." He said in Russia he learn to speak Russian. He just came back.

31 Mr. Liebeler. You thought he spoke Russian better than you would expect a person to be able to speak Russian after only living there only 3 years?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I really did. I don't know, maybe Russian easy. I know American is very difficult language but I been taught here. Really, it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak Russian or did he just say it was from being in Russia?

Mrs. Ray. No; I never asked. Only things, I give him credit he speak so well Russian and I don't ask and then I want to introduce him to my husband, you know. He is an American and my husband did not remember him very well how he look and my husband, I guess, have few drinks and he is man don't talk much. This Oswald don't say much and you introduce and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to his wife, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us the rest of your conversation with Marina or with Oswald as best you can recall it.

Mrs. Ray. Well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her about Russian songs and they start to sing in Russian songs, and asking her sing, if she know any latest Russian song, and she start sing and we sing with her together and then I notice that's all been say as much conversation.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I ask her where she come from. She said she come from Minsk but said later she coming from Moscow. She been in Moscow with her husband. He has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his paper fix to go to America, said she did not have difficulty. He told them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got paper and they left. Don't take too long; said he have to wait for little while. I believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his paper.

Mr. Liebeler. Before he got his paper from the Americans or from the Russians; did she say?

Mrs. Ray. No; from Americans to go back to America; so he decided to go back to America.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; see, from Minsk he have to go in Moscow to American Embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in Moscow before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let Russian Embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her paper and they left.

Mrs. Ray. Well, not exactly; all I know she said he working on factory, some factory and we don't get any details.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald work while they stayed in Moscow a year? Do you know about that?

Mrs. Ray. No; I cannot help in this. I do not know. I know that they coming and stay in Moscow.

Mr. Liebeler. Are you sure that she told you they stayed in Moscow for a whole year or did they just go to Moscow to see about the papers and then come back to Minsk and wait in Minsk for the year to go by?

Mrs. Ray. Well, really, when Mrs. Ford call us, she on telephone told us that32 she come from Moscow, you know. That is girl, Russian girl, she says she come back from Moscow.

Mrs. Ray. Yeah, and then later on Marina said that she, you know—let me see how she say—that she come from Moscow. She fly—not fly—I do not know how they come but she say from Moscow she come to America but she been in Moscow 1 year. Said that's year or little better but she been in Moscow with him; that's what she tell.

Mrs. Ray. No; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and that's as far as I know.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did Marina know how to speak English as far as you could tell?

Mrs. Ray. No; she don't understand word. She speak Russian but she don't understand English.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald or Marina tell you what kind of an apartment they had to live in when they lived in Minsk?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else that they may have told you about the time that they were in Russia together?

Mrs. Ray. Well, I don't think anything else. I can recall main things. I never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing. All I wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. That's why my impression been that everything is get better, you know.

Mrs. Ray. No; but I read in the paper and then, you know, before he went, I remember in Fort Worth paper, I read it about boy went to Russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he want to go to live and—but that's as far as—then Mrs. Harris is one that told me she know about him, that he went to Russia and want to stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to America.

Mr. Liebeler. You knew that about Oswald when you met him at Ford's party, is that right?

Mrs. Ray. Yes—no, no; I don't know it because we suppose to know it and Zena—that's Mrs. Harris—don't know either who they are but when we go Mrs. Harris found out who is here and then she told me. That's in conversation, you know, he went to Russia and don't like it and he come back but marry this Russian girl and brought her with.

Mr. Liebeler. So, you learned that at the Ford party because Mrs. Harris told you that, is that right?

Mr. Liebeler. After the Oswalds left the party was there any discussion about Oswald amongst the people there?

Mrs. Ray. Well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go to Marina and I personally ask why they are leaving so early—I don't recall the time—she said well, they coming with some couples, they don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go and "We better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." Well, we tell them "Bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they gone and everything is forgot.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time later after the Ford party that there was a discussion about the Oswalds?

Mrs. Ray. Let me see, I have a dates what happened next Saturday. We went back to Ford's house. They ask us coming over and Saturday we staying at Ford house and there's not much been discussion about but she only know, she tell us that she been keeping Marina with her 2 weeks, Marina and her baby.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; and she said "Well, he cannot find job"—said she just want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and then we went Sunday we going back to Mrs. Meller, let me see. Anna Meller.

Mr. Liebeler. That's Meller. Did you say the next Saturday? In other words a week after?

Mrs. Ray. No, no; that's same, that following Saturday. We been Friday, that Saturday and Sunday; we 3 days been here in Dallas. Sunday, we ask by George Bouhe—or how you say?

Mrs. Ray. Bouhe, yes, to come and visit another Russian family what being at Ford's house; that's Anna Meller and we went over there and that's one main things taken place when we discussed Oswald and his wife.

Mr. Liebeler. Who was there at that time? Mr. and Mrs. Meller were both there, is that right?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; Mr. and Mrs. Harris and then another couple I cannot recall name and they gave me address but I lost it. They live on farm; I don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been from Houston. She visit with Mrs. Meller.

Mrs. Ray. Another girl here from Dallas; she not married. I don't remember what her name——

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what was said at this party or get-together?

Mrs. Ray. Well, when we got together, George Bouhe, one I told him, well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come America take him back; said he choose this Russia, why they brought him back. Why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "You don't know Russia as we do. They have such funny tricks; never can tell what they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to Russia and said "That's my country", why America want to bring him back, what for? We wonder why they take him back. Well, there's George Bouhe said "Oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. Said every place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time work and he said Minsk, Russia, said "Well, who in heaven going to give job?" He don't explain. He seems to be proud he working in Russia and said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to making living and said they so sorry for this girl. Said he brought her here and she don't know any language. Said she such have difficulty. They don't wonder she have wrong impression about America. Said we been trying help them. Said sometimes she call them and said she don't have nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. Said we go and get her and said Mrs. Ford keep her; Mrs. Meller keep her; Mrs. Ray keep her, not me, Ray, that's other Ray. Said we try to help and then George tell me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; George Bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they give him job. Said you know how long he stay. Said he staying 3 days and quit and I said "Well, I guess he expect since he been in Russia when he come back in America that they going to put red carpet for him and take him." Said well, tell us about America what is wrong, there in Russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "Well, I don't know but I give up with them; I am through, we just cannot—he don't going to find job. He don't going to keep job." He thinking he can have some kind of special job; said "I am just through with him."

Mrs. Ray. Yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him, we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any discussion on the question of whether or not Oswald might have been an agent of the Russian government?

Mrs. Ray. Well, as an agent we not—but we did discuss. Said Russia, you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some kind of purpose here in America but it isn't saying exactly as an agent but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by Russia because so easy way to coming to America.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said about this question of Oswald possibly being sent back by the Russians? What did you say and what did Bouhe say; just tell us as best you can recall the substance of that conversation.

Mrs. Ray. I mostly talk to George Bouhe because he seems to be man what try to bring this Russians together just have fun, not any purpose but said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we don't forget to speak Russian. I don't know, I guess I am one who told him, I said "George", I said, "You know how Russia is funny", I said, "You know I just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you know, just send him here knowing Russian." I go in college in Russia and if you live there and study you know what really going on. They going to do such a trick that you surprise.

Mrs. Ray. Well, my home in Stalingrad; I going in college in Leningrad and then I went home.

Mrs. Ray. Soljanoy Calach—that's salt. I suppose to after I finish they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to Siberia, Irkutsk, Siberia. That's only on practice but I was work after I finish in Irkutsk, Siberia.

35 Mrs. Ray. Yes; Leningrad—street Maxim Gorky Street. That's on Maxim Gorky Street; that's college.

Mrs. Ray. See, what happen I study and then I have a permission, not permission. I have to go and work in Siberia, Irkutsk and before I go this far—that is very far from my home, I have 2-months vacation and I went home. From first I go to Irkutsk; then from there I coming home in summertime, in June. My brother supposed to come home from flying school to get married and I have 2 months after finish college. You have 2-months vacation; government paying you go back home.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; take me 13 day to go home. When I coming home I staying there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war started, I wrote letter to this government place where you have to write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started that I like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in Siberia, and that's where I stay. That's how come.

Mr. Liebeler. So, you would have been studying at college in Leningrad from about 1937, is that right, to 1941?

Mr. Liebeler. So, it would have been about 1937 or 1938 that you started at the university in Leningrad?

Mrs. Ray. Well, wait minute, 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941; see, 3½ year and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you know, practice.

Mr. Liebeler. So, the time you were in Siberia was part of a practice program in connection with your college?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I went; I been once before on practice job then I come back and then they assign me to Siberia.

Mr. Liebeler. How long did you stay in Siberia before you came back to Leningrad?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; I have 2-months vacation and I told them that I did like to go back home. You know they let you do these things; you have to admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come I coming home.

Mr. Liebeler. So, you were not in Siberia very long at all when you went there the first time?

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to the conversation that you were having with Mr. Bouhe about possibility that Oswald might have been sent here by the Russians for some purpose, that the Russians had devised for him or asked him to do it.

Mrs. Ray. Well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just—first I talk with George but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him back, never can tell what is going happen. George—one said he don't have any guts to do anything, not any kind—he is just man that is silly. We just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but—I don't know how to explain.

36 Mrs. Ray. Really not this way but we decided that he just not any count. He isn't any good. He said he try to be smart; he don't have enough sense. Said—they said they going to be through with him. They don't want have anything to do with him any more.

Mrs. Ray. Yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me sometimes. He remember this discussion, too.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you tell him about the discussion in English or did Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. Ray. Well, we half way talk in Russian and then we get in on English, you know, and part what when he interested in something we tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any other reason for thinking that Oswald might be a Russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married to Marina and left Russia with such ease? Was there any other reason that led you to suspect he might be an agent?

Mrs. Ray. I don't know; I cannot recall it but I cannot—I don't know how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can quit job and go in Moscow. In Russia that isn't so easy quit job. They send me in Siberia; I have to stay there. I cannot quit. I cannot go home and stay there and work. I have to get permission and stay there and working. I imagine he have permission to go to Moscow, but he seems—from Minsk going to Moscow; I don't know what he been doing but not as far as this; other, I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. So you thought that in addition to his apparent—in addition to the apparent ease with which he left Russia and the fact he was able to get married and bring Marina out and also because he was able to move from Minsk to Moscow, those are three reasons you thought he might be an agent. Did you have any other reason that led you to believe that?

Mrs. Ray. Well, main things—I don't thought those things be made him agent. I thought that's in Russia get better if they let people quit job and travel and let Marina come back here so easy. I don't thought—that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man coming to my mind, Russia have such a tricks that we thought never can tell what they——

Mrs. Ray. Will do with him, really; see, I study in college and they don't need Communists coming to Russia. They need Communists going to other country and working.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever receive any training or did you know people who received training in college when you were in Russia to go outside Russia and be agents for Russia?

Mrs. Ray. Yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. We study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the people and have organized Communist party right there. They don't need, you know in Russia them; they need in other country. They don't want a war; that's as far as they said. We do not want a war.

Mrs. Ray. Yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves, but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures where they showing agents sent from other countries in Russia; other countries send it to Russia and they catch it and they said we have to always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as much as I know, but I don't know if they send it or they don't send it. I don't know any people I meet here because I really be cut off. That's first time I meet these people.

Mr. Liebeler. You were told this when you were going to school in Leningrad, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion as to whether Oswald was probably a Russian agent or probably was not a Russian agent?

Mrs. Ray. No; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we don't have any conclusion that he is Russian agent but we just been wondering, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. In fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a Russian agent?

Mrs. Ray. Well, yes; we said if Russia send some agent here, they do give him all connection here. He be not without money; he be not without job. As far as Oswald, he cannot get job. He have such difficulty and usually if Russia really send it he be don't have any such difficulty. That's what been discussed and we decided he not Russian agent.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any of the other details of these conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can recall?

Mr. Liebeler. Other than this one evening that you saw Oswald and his wife at the Ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know anything else about Oswald that you think the Commission should know that you have not already told us?

Mr. Liebeler. Is there anything else you would like to add to your testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly well?

Mrs. Ray. I think you cover it. One thing I want to tell you. When I saw on television what happened, you know, I recognized him right away and when my husband come back from work I told him I said, "Honey, do you know who done it?" It shocked me to know you just met this man; made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when my husband looking on television, he not remember him. I said, "Well, you remember when I introduced and tell he has been in Russia" and he said, "I not even know what he look like him" and that's much——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you and your husband discuss the possibility after you saw that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that Oswald might have been a Russian agent or didn't you think about that again?

Mrs. Ray. After this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and said, "George, is that true that's Oswald really done it?" He said, "Well, we try—just hear it and everything is still—." he said, "We just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any enough guts and then he done things like this." We just can't figure out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they don't hear from him. He had been left from Dallas. Said last time we been there they quit with him. He give them so much trouble they just want to forget him. Said, "We don't hear from him" but said that's one Oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and he thinking I am telling—am mixed up. I said, "Well, that's Marina, and this man is——

Mr. Liebeler. I think that's all we have at this time. We want to thank you very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY

The testimony of Thomas M. Ray was taken at 12:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you I would contact you to take your testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive Order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the Commission's procedure relating to the taking of testimony. Did you receive the letter?

Mr. Liebeler. Technically, the Commission's letter requires the witness to be given 3 days' notice prior to the time they have to testify although that notice can be waived. I understand you did not receive the letter until Monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post office.

Mr. Liebeler. But I assume you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony at this time?

Mr. Liebeler. The testimony we want this time from you relates basically to some conversations that were had in late 1962 concerning the background of Lee Harvey Oswald. First of all, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. Ray. We have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a hired hand and my supervision and I also am a commission salesman for Sam Weiss in Paris who is the consignee of Gulf Oil in Paris, and right now I am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. I am going on the road for Paris Milling Co. the 15th of this next month as assistant sales manager and I have been with Mr. Weiss for about 9½ years.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which you met and married your wife?

Mr. Ray. Well, I was stationed in Wiesbaden and as you probably already know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army used these39 displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen work and things like that and I met her there during the time that she and some other girls came to work for our outfit. All we had to do was go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and feed them and that's where I met her, in Wiesbaden.

Mr. Liebeler. Then you were subsequently married and you brought her back to the United States; is that correct?

Mr. Ray. Yes, sir; after a length of time during which I was later discharged there and worked for the U.S. Force headquarters in Frankfurt.

(At this point in the hearing, Mr. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas leaves the room.)

Mr. Ray. [continuing]. I was employed there about, well, I think actually I was on the payroll until they sent me back to New York which would have been 16, 17 months, I think.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank when you met your wife?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your wife when you were in Germany?

Mr. Ray. At various times it looked like we were running into stumps but we got over them. At times it looked like they were going to send all the Russian nationals back to Russia and I even made a trip to Paris, France, once to try to talk to the Russian Embassy there and never got to see him. I think along about that time the Government stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get all the Russian nationals back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife have to obtain the permission of Russian authorities before she could marry you?

Mr. Ray. I don't think so. Now I'm not sure on that point. I wouldn't say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago.

Mr. Liebeler. What was your purpose in going to Paris to try and see the Russian Embassy, to get permission to keep her here?

Mr. Ray. To keep her from being sent back to Russia. You know it was during that time that they were trying to send them all back.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. Liebeler. Will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your meeting them, where was it, what happened?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how you came to meet the Oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your contact was.

Mr. Ray. Well, I tell you how it happened. This Ed Harris and his wife that live in Georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and, actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over here. We came and we met them over here.

Mr. Liebeler. You had not met the Harrises before you came to Dallas to go to the Ford party?

Mr. Ray. Oh, yes; I say they were the only people we knew before we went to this party.

Mr. Liebeler. The party we are referring to is the party at the home of Declan P. Ford?

40 Mr. Ray. Yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were made from our home. Mrs.—Ed's wife, Mrs. Harris—called Mrs. Ford from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we were coming or something. I don't understand this Russian that goes on when they start talking Russian. I don't know everything that was said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. We went along with the Harrises from Georgetown; at least we met them in Dallas and went to the party with them and that was the party that was on Friday night and we stayed over Saturday and we went back to the Ford's on Saturday night and then some—and visited awhile and stayed over until Sunday and Sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at the party. But the only time I had any contact whatsoever with Oswald was at the party and frankly, I vaguely remember meeting him because when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get acquainted with all of them. I got acquainted with a few but I didn't get acquainted with Oswald or his wife.

Mr. Ray. Nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a handshake or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not form any impression of him that you can remember at the moment, is that correct?

Mr. Ray. The only thing I remember about her is when I met her, she was kind of small and she didn't speak any English so there I couldn't have any conversation with her in Russian and that's as far as it went.

Mr. Liebeler. It was clear to you that she did not understand English, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the ordinary about Oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you?

Mr. Ray. Well, frankly, I just didn't pay much attention to the guy. I wasn't around him very much.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time over the weekend either at the Ford party or following the Ford party where the Oswalds were discussed in your presence?

Mr. Ray. Of course, we were there, Natalie and I and the Harrises and Anna Meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from Houston was there. I believe she was from Houston.

Mr. Ray. Oh, yeah; George was there. I was trying to think. I got acquainted with George. He's one I got acquainted with.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us what the conversation about the Oswalds was to the best of your recollection.

Mr. Ray. The thing that I remember most was George telling us what a nut he was. It seemed that George had tried to help him and I think the Fords had tried to help him and maybe the Frank Rays or some of this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to help Mrs. Oswald get adjusted to the American way of life and frankly, George Bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut.

Mr. Ray. Well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too good to his wife. He didn't treat her as they thought he should. He wasn't real good to her.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Bouhe tell you that Oswald was reported to have beaten Marina up?

Mr. Ray. I think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. I don't know if it was the Fords or the Rays or who it was but that I think was the situation.

Mr. Liebeler. Anyway, as far as you can recall Bouhe indicated that he was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as Oswald was concerned?

Mr. Liebeler. Did anybody else there express an opinion about Oswald along these lines as far as you can remember?

Mr. Ray. Well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea and everybody talks a little but what George said about him impressed me more than anything else that was said. I am sure that the others did have things to say but frankly I was not interested in the guy.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't have any recollection of what anybody else said at this point?

Mr. Ray. At this point I couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no. I am sure there was a discussion among the group. We were having coffee and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the Oswalds and that's the way it went.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall any discussion on the question of whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. Ray. I don't know whether that was discussed or not. It seems to me like somebody brought the subject up. It might have been my wife for all I know but we were wondering since he had left the United States and wanted to be a Russian citizen and had been over there, the time that he spent in Russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you know what I mean?

Mr. Ray. Yeah; why did they take him back and how—the question in my mind was how did he get his Russian wife out of Russia. It just looked odd to me.

Mr. Liebeler. Was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife out partly related to the difficulties you had had?

Mr. Ray. I knew the difficulties I had had and of course I have known the relations between the Americans and the Russians since the war and you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and I wondered at the time how the hell he got his wife out of Russia without so much trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did look odd to me.

Mr. Liebeler. Was that subject discussed at this time you can remember amongst the group there; did George Bouhe offer any opinion on this question?

Mr. Ray. I would say it could have been discussed and I cannot say whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago and it's hard to remember. I think the whole deal was discussed, you know, pretty well. We might have discussed that. I think we did but I wouldn't say for sure.

42 Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember if there was a conversation going on in Russian while you were there or did they speak in English—the people that were at the house?

Mr. Ray. Most of it was in English; now I am sure there was some Russian conversation going on because Ed Harris' wife irritates me to death with her Russian. If she starts talking to my wife, it's Russian and it just—I just get the drift of the conversation and that's all. I mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. She enjoys talking to Natalie and Natalie enjoys talking to her in Russian but it kind of leaves Ed and I out when we are together.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion on this question as to whether Oswald might have been an agent? I don't want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you remember whether the point was made that Oswald did not appear to have good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was not a Russian agent. Do you remember any conversation along these lines?

Mr. Ray. There could have been because I believe that was discussed and I believe George Bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the Russians would not want him or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say you believe is that that you have a faint recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you believe?

Mr. Liebeler. When you say you believe what you are really saying is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm recollection?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you and your wife have any discussions about the Oswalds after you left Dallas and went back to Blossom or to Detroit prior to the assassination?

Mr. Ray. I am sure we did but at the time of the assassination I had completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but I am sure we talked about it.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't have any recollection of what your conversation might have been?

Mr. Ray. Well, she was kind of afraid he might be a Russian spy, that they might have sent him back for something.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go up to the date of the assassination. Do you recall any conversations with your wife at that time about Oswald's involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the assassination?

Mr. Ray. Well, I was working that day, of course, and by the time I got home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured Oswald and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the guy we met at the party. I said "What guy?" She said, "Oh, you know, the guy that married the Russian girl and came back over, you know, brought her back." Well, of course, I remembered that but she sometimes misunderstands things and I thought possibly that she could be mistaken, see. She told me "That's the guy that killed the President. I saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the President." Well, I still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and so the next morning I had her find these names and addresses of these people and I called this George Bouhe and asked him if that was the guy that we thought it was. He said "Yes, it was" and we had a short conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said it was all in the papers and I could read about it. But, at the time I called him he didn't remember me just right quick. I mean a year had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a year or something like that but I had to tell him who I43 was before he remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told me "Yeah, that's the guy."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe as to whether or not Bouhe thought that Oswald was really guilty or really could have been the man who really did assassinate the President?

Mr. Ray. He said something about that he was trying to figure out how Oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place at another time. He couldn't figure how Oswald could have been at all those places in that short length of time.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? Can you remember anything more than that? In other words, at this point Bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories?

Mr. Ray. He expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure how Oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. I don't know how many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this——

Mr. Ray. Movie theater. He was trying to figure out how he got from place to place in a short length of time. There seemed to be a little doubt in his mind at the time I talked to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he express any doubts as to Oswald's involvement based on his judgment of Oswald's character? Your wife testified and you did, too, to some extent that Bouhe was fed up with Oswald and did not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he was no account is the term your wife used. Did you have any discussion with Bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone?

Mr. Ray. I don't know but there was something said about—now, George was trying to justify himself in his association with Oswald, see. He said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying to help the guy; do you know what I mean? He had tried to help the guy when he first came back and he said, "If that's a crime, I'm guilty." I remember that statement.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his previous association with Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think his statements about being guilty of trying to help Oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any subsequent conversation? Have you told us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with Bouhe?

Mr. Ray. Well, he said it was all in the paper. "You can read it in the paper", said "It's all in there."

Mr. Ray. I don't know it has been so long ago that I don't right now; I don't remember anything.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody else that was at this party about this assassination?

Mr. Ray. Saw the Harrises, Ed Harris and his wife. I haven't—now, that's the only two people we've seen. I think Mrs. Ford wrote Natalie a letter. I don't know what the letter said. I wasn't interested but anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we did discuss this thing in Georgetown not too long ago. I had a niece to get married down at Kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the Harrises and that's—of course, we discussed it then.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk with the Harrises about this get-together at Meller's that occurred after the Ford party at which Oswald was discussed?

44 Mr. Ray. I am sure we did; now, I don't really recall. We discussed the whole durned thing with the Harrises and I am sure that that came into the conversation but right now, I don't remember exactly when and how it came about, you know.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, during this conversation with the Harrises was there any more conversation about Oswald's possibility of being a Russian agent?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you tell us the best of your recollection what was said about it?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether there was any consensus or agreement as to whether Oswald probably was or probably was not a Russian agent?

Mr. Ray. Well, actually I don't think that the Harrises think he was a Russian agent.

Mr. Liebeler. Did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did you get that opinion?

Mr. Ray. If they had told me that they thought he was a Russian agent I would have remembered it. Do you know what I mean?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever telling you that they thought he was?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or not he was a Russian agent or might be?

Mr. Ray. Just from what little I know about it and the conversation that we have been over, I think he needed psychiatric treatments or something. I think he was just a damn nut like George said. Of course, you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would want, you know, for a Russian agent.

Mr. Ray. He might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the people that knew him thought; I don't know.

Mr. Davis. Have you all—I might inject here—have you all gone over the point—did you ever discuss with your wife or the Mellers or any of these other people that it was strange about them being able to come out of Russia so easily? It was strange about him being able to move about in Russia so easily? Was it with all of them the consensus that it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed?

Mr. Ray. I don't know whether they were or not but I was amazed and my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or longer—how long was he over there? Anyway, they let him——

Mr. Ray. Come back and bring his wife with him. That looked kind of ridiculous to me.

Mr. Liebeler. And that question was discussed in your meeting in the Meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife, wasn't it?

Mr. Davis. Let me ask you this: This group at the Ford's place where the Russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there been very frequent—I mean, have you and your wife gone—I believe this was the first time?

Mr. Davis. Did they mention about this having happened fairly frequently before? Do you know how often they had been meeting in Dallas?

Mr. Ray. It seems like now they kind of get together, you know, somewhere around New Year's—Christmas or New Year's; something like an annual affair for them to get together.

Mr. Davis. Did you know—were there any others in this group or did you45 have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story like the Oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go out of Russia?

Mr. Ray. No, no; see, most of these people are, the way I get it, were Russian descent or else they were like—they had married a Russian over there or something of that nature, you see. I mean it wasn't everybody there wasn't Russian but there was some Russian connection with most of them.

Mr. Liebeler. But you heard of no other examples where people had come out of Russia as easily as Oswald had; is that correct?

Mr. Davis. Has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and go? I believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. Has this proved to be?

Mr. Ray. I don't know; 2 or 3 years ago she tried to call her niece on the telephone and tried 2 or 3 days and finally made the connection and the niece said, "Hello," and the line was out like that and she finally gave up.

Mr. Davis. In other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence it has been made easier to communicate back and forth?

Mr. Ray. No; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a couple years before we even knew it.

Mr. Ray. I think she died in 1953; I know it was a couple years gone by when my wife found out about it.

Mr. Liebeler. Was your wife's mother living in Stalingrad when she died, do you know?

Mr. Ray. I don't know. She was, I believe, in Arzamas; I am not sure that's where she died but that's near Stalingrad, some place near Stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you know, took place, in Arzamas.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think now that you have told us about all you know or all you remember about your contact with Oswald and the discussion that you had about him? If there is anything you want to add at this point, go right ahead.

Mr. Liebeler. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Ray, for coming down here and I think you have been helpful and I appreciate it very much.

Mr. Ray. Well, like I said before, I went to the FBI voluntarily with what information that I had. Frankly, I didn't know anything about the guy except what I have told you but I did have the names and addresses of some of these people that knew him and that's why I went to the FBI, because of that. They might contact these people and find out more about it.

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN

The testimony of Samuel B. Ballen was taken at 2:20 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you raise your right hand to be sworn, Mr. Ballen? Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give?

Mr. Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I believe Mr. Rankin mentioned46 in the letter he sent to you last week that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.

The Commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to authority granted by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

Copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. You did receive those, did you not?

Mr. Liebeler. We want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts with Lee Harvey Oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your association with George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Ballen. I am a financial consultant, self-employed, and I am senior officer in several corporations.

Mr. Liebeler. Included among those corporations is the High Plains Natural Gas Co. and Electrical Log Services, Inc.?

Mr. Ballen. I went to public schools in New York. Attended Townsend Harris High; attended C.C.N.Y.; received a BBA Degree from C.C.N.Y., and then have also taken extension courses at Columbia University, Manhattan College, NYU Graduate School of Banking, Oklahoma University, and Texas A&M.

Mr. Ballen. Three fields. Money and banking; geology; and petroleum engineering.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

My best recollection though is that in the fall of 1962, George De Mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from Russia here to Dallas and Fort Worth, and that among other problems, that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a job, and would I be willing to see him and try to find employment for him.

I said, "Yes." And he came down to my office and I spent approximately 2 hours with him.

He came down, and I left my office in the Southland Center with him to go to a meeting at the Republic National Bank, and walked down with him, and he then left and I believe stated that he was going over to the YMCA where he was residing.

Mr. Ballen. I can't. I think it was either the latter part of 1962 or the very early part of 1963.

47 I know the particular day was pleasant, because I recall walking down the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and that was also true of Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you; do you know?

Mr. Ballen. That's correct. He told me that his—I knew he had a wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the YMCA.

Mr. Ballen. No. I would have had some vague idea about that from the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Ballen. I had the idea that they were either moving into or just coming out of some apartment, and I would have an idea, which is very vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the Oak Cliff region.

Mr. Ballen. Just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him and of trying to see what skills he had so that I could try to develop some employment for him.

He did say that he had some training in the U.S.S.R., in some area in the field of photography—no, some area in the field of reproduction, but the thing that I was impressed about in talking with him was his lack of any usable training.

Mr. Liebeler. What is the state of your recollection that Oswald told you he had received training in photography when he was in Russia?

Mr. Ballen. Pretty vague, but I had the feeling that he said he may have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ—or a newspaper in the U.S.S.R., and that he did have some training and knew how to use commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you take any steps to help Oswald get a job as a result of his interview with you?

Mr. Ballen. No. During the course of my meeting with him, I started out being attracted somewhat toward him, and I started out having a fairly good impression of the individual, and I also started out feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had been through, and of wanting to help him. But as this meeting wore on, I just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded individual, and that I probably would ultimately regret having him down at my organization. I was, during the course of this meeting, trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at Electrical Log Services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction equipment, but the more I talked to him, while I had a certain area of admiration for him, it still remained that I gradually came to the conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the team we had down there. So I never did really try to help Oswald. I think I told George De Mohrenschildt I would search around and see what I could do.

Mr. Liebeler. But in point of fact, you never took any steps after this to try to help him find a job?

Mr. Ballen. My memory was a bit hazy in one respect. I knew I reached my conclusion. I didn't know whether I had called up our general manager down at the Log Services to see what openings, if any, could be generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any memory of my calling him in that regard.

Mr. Liebeler. The other individual being the man in charge of operations at Log Services?

Mr. Liebeler. What did Oswald say to you that led you to this conclusion that you have just expressed?

Let me ask you a broader question. Let me ask you, if you will now, to your48 best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that you and Oswald had that day?

Mr. Ballen. We commenced speaking in pleasantries, and I had known from De Mohrenschildt that he had gone to Russia, that he had married, and come back. I did not know of any unpleasant association with the Marine Corps, nor did I know of any attempt on his part to be a defector.

I asked him why he had left and gone to Russia, and he said that this Russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. He gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion of Russia. And he said that the place was just boring, that there was hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there.

I had gotten the feeling, and I don't know how specific I can make this, but all of his comments to me about Russia were somewhat along a negative vein. He said nothing to me that would indicate that he still had any romantic feeling about Russia. His comments to me seemed to be fairly realistic.

Some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of detached objective criticism towards the United States and our own institutions.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything specifically that he said along that line?

Mr. Ballen. I don't believe I can recall anything specific, but there were just during the entire course of this 2 hours, general observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me that he was equally a critic of the United States and of the U.S.S.R., and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press or official spokesmen.

He would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me the wrong way is, as I started to seriously think through possible industrial openings or possible people I could refer him to, and he could see I was really making an effort in this respect, he kept saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he said to me, "Now, don't worry about me, I will get along. Don't you worry yourself about me." He said that often enough that gradually it became annoying and I just felt this is a hot potato that I don't think will fit in with any organization that I could refer him to.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular hostility toward any official of the U.S. Government?

Mr. Ballen. None whatsoever; none whatsoever. My own subjective reaction is, that the sum total of these 2 hours that I spent with him, I just can't see his having any venom towards President Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did President Kennedy come up in any way during the course of your discussion?

Mr. Ballen. No; it did not. The sum total of his reaction, limited as it was that I got from this individual, is that this man would have—this is subjective, I can put no concrete support in there, but I would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards President Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. You drew that inference simply as a general impression based on the 2 hours that you spent conversing with him?

Mr. Liebeler. Could you—and you can't pinpoint anything specifically that led you to that conclusion?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussion, or was the name of Governor Connally mentioned?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular institution of the United States?

Mr. Ballen. Yes. I think he had referred sarcastically to some of our religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and I think he referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the United States. I cannot49 document that with any specific items which were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this had come out during that discussion.

Mr. Ballen. Negro and all forms of human hatred. In other words, the meeting that I had with this individual, which was very limited. I had a certain element of attraction towards the man because I felt that this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of compassion for mankind generally.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies which had as their end racial prejudice?

Mr. Ballen. Yes. In his general categoric manner, he would have felt that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any impression of the man that would enable you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced by racist or hate propaganda?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you think that Oswald was the kind of person who would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind of activity? You mentioned before, for example, that Oswald took the position or expressed the attitude that as far as the Soviet Union and the United States generally were concerned, it was a sort of plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the situation. Did you gain any impression about Oswald's attitude toward hate groups? Do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them?

Mr. Ballen. I think I understand your question, and there would have been no expression advanced by Oswald of contempt for a particular organization.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that he had experienced certain difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as heck to gain employment.

I could understand that, and I said, "Well, let's see what kind of training you have, if you get employment."

And I was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training other than what he had mentioned which I have already covered.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work he did in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Ballen. I have the impression that these were menial jobs. I am sure I discussed it with him. I am sure I would have asked him, and I have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about camera and reproduction equipment.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as to what his income was?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he had received income while he was in the Soviet Union from sources other than this—his job?

Mr. Ballen. No; he didn't indicate anything like that. I did express a little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife.

Mr. Ballen. He shrugged that off and said, "Well, it's just a matter of sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both Russian and the United States, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out; and I got out."

I would add this. Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was making a serious effort to help out socially and economically the Oswalds, and she was reporting to us50 that on given evenings the De Mohrenschildts were visiting with the Oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty miserable. They were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people and mingle and otherwise.

George asked me and also asked my wife to invite the Oswalds to our house for dinner and help these people out. This was a type of thing that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation to the Oswalds. In other words, my wife has never met either one of them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that I had of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. He was too independent a thinker. I am not talking on politics now. And my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently moved into Dallas from afar.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember with any great specificity the things that Oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such an independent fellow?

Mr. Ballen. It was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have, a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that I ended up with.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within the Soviet Union in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you get that information or impression?

Mr. Ballen. I think he told me that he had traveled in the Soviet Union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just incredibly boring and dismal.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you go into any details as to how the life was boring or dismal in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Ballen. No. This was my first visit with him and I knew he came down to see me in order to talk about a job, and I didn't want to impose on him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you question him—did you have questions in your own mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling?

Mr. Ballen. I had the impression that this was the kind of guy who could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very little money. He was dressed very modestly, and I, at least to me, he did, engender a certain amount of sympathy.

In other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like that. I just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of money to do it.

Mr. Ballen. No; I didn't. If at the time he had asked me to loan him money, I would have. But I would say that this would, that the thing that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit; "Don't you worry about me, I will take care of myself, and I will get myself work, don't you worry about me." Telling that too many times to a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique.

Mr. Liebeler. You have testified that Oswald told you that he had received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was in the Soviet Union. Did he mention any other training that he received in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Ballen. No; I think I discussed a little detail with him about photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at Ross Avenue.

51 Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate to you a general comprehension and understanding of that type of machinery?

Mr. Ballen. I am not that familiar technically with the equipment myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but I mentioned different types of machinery, the M-4, blueprint machines, Repco continuous cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital when he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Other than the fact that he stated that life in the Soviet Union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his return to the United States?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this thing was like. He wanted to find it out for himself. He found out, and now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the U.S.S.R.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know at that time that he had attempted to renounce his citizenship?

Mr. Ballen. I did not know it, and he did not say anything that would have suggested that. You must bear in mind he came to me to look for a job.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he mention the name of the city in which he was employed and lived in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Ballen. He probably did, and I can't really recall it. I read so much in the newspaper, I don't know on that what is my own memory and what I have read in the newspaper.

Mr. Liebeler. You have read in the newspaper that he lived and was employed in the city of Minsk?

Mr. Ballen. That is correct. I would have thought that he would have—my memory is this. He told me he was in a community outside of Minsk. That is my best memory, but it is not too good.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his wife when he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. As far as his return to the United States is concerned, you previously testified that you asked Oswald how he managed to leave Russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the bureaucrats. Did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any resentment?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human being.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he have that attitude toward both the American and Russian authorities? Do you remember any specific conversation relating to possible resentment of the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that he did indicate to you that the Americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as Russia?

Mr. Liebeler. You got the feeling that it was primarily the Russians who had delayed his return, is that correct?

Mr. Ballen. Well, it was a matter of working then through these bureaucrats and the American bureaucrats. This would be his reaction.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say he expressed more resentment of the American bureaucracy or the Russian bureaucracy, or were they about the same?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you anything about his educational background? About where he had gone to grade school or high school and that sort of thing?

Mr. Ballen. I am sure I questioned him on that, and the ultimate conclusion I came to was that he left—that he lacked educational training.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper in New Orleans?

Mr. Ballen. I think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in New Orleans, and the—in the photographic field, but this employment, I thought in New Orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any of the details of what he told you about his activities in New Orleans?

Mr. Ballen. That would have been the only reference to New Orleans, and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any Cuban committees or anything like that. I would have the feeling that this was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with any Communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or any part of the political spectrum.

Mr. Ballen. He may have—I think I had the feeling that he, to the extent that he could define it, that he was a student of Marxism and was a critic of societies along Marxist lines.

Mr. Ballen. No; I learned that from George De Mohrenschildt, and I think Oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview with him, made statements to reenforce that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember what De Mohrenschildt told you about Oswald before you actually met Oswald?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir. Here is a chap who suddenly appears in the Dallas area, and that he had been to Russia, went to Russia, came back, and has no hatred either for Russia or for the United States, and is just a man with no hatred, and by gosh here he appears in the United States, having gotten out of Russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking young man and very interesting, and George was talking to him at length in Russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow with no hatred.

Mr. Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt indicate to you that Oswald had no hatred of anything?

Mr. Ballen. That is what—De Mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions connected with it.

Mr. Liebeler. Was De Mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind when you met and talked to Oswald?

Mr. Ballen. Based on that 2-hour visit with him, to a certain extent; yes. But I would express it rather than Oswald not having hatred, that he would have had a little disdain for both sides.

Mr. Liebeler. You did not get the impression, however, that he was emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two sides? Would that be a fair statement?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you also have the impression that Oswald would not be influenced against the Soviet Union by anti-Soviet Union propaganda that might be disseminated in the country?

Mr. Ballen. Definitely he would make the decisions for himself and would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the United States, including our Government.

Mr. Liebeler. You would say that Oswald would not likely be influenced by propaganda of this sort?

Mr. Ballen. He forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't53 appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference, to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way, and these tendencies were so pronounced that I felt I didn't want to involve him in my firm, which means a team operation.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence?

Mr. Ballen. I thought he was of above average intelligence, and the unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. It was this quality—these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me.

Mr. Ballen. I—just his general conduct, his general responses, general bearing. He just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively, a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally ill, I didn't come away with that feeling.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any specific example of his efforts at self-improvement or self-education that you could give us?

Mr. Ballen. Well, he just indicated a wide range of readership, literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little curiosity, a chap out of Fort Worth who would go to the point of reading and becoming familiar with Marxian literature just struck me as someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know at that time that he had received Marxian literature?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; I think I knew even in his offhanded reference to comments on those that he was using Marxian terminology.

Mr. Liebeler. You think he had Marxian leanings to the extent he understood them to be Marxian leanings?

Mr. Ballen. I think he considered himself a Marxist, and what exactly his understanding of that philosophy was, I didn't have an opportunity to go into that with him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI about December 10, 1963, in connection with your acquaintance with Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that he questioned you whether you were familiar or knew of Oswald's Marxist leanings?

Mr. Ballen. I had a conversation with them pretty much the same as I have been having with you, and I suppose that question came up.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall that you told the two agents that you were unaware that Oswald had Marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of the conversation Oswald was critical of Russia?

Mr. Ballen. The difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. In reading the newspapers—all I can say in answer to that is, that I am giving the best answer now to my memory and I gave the best answer then, to my memory? I have greater faith in my response today than in December.

Mr. Ballen. Oh, yes; I can see that my answer on that day is not the same as my answer here today.

54 Mr. Ballen. If that was my answer that day, that would have been my best memory and best recollection at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know anything about the relationship between Oswald and De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Ballen. I knew that George had met this fellow. In the events after November 22d, the question came up in my own mind how did George meet this fellow. Prior to November, I didn't know how George met this fellow. George meets all kinds of individuals. He is a magnet for individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. I knew that George and his wife were making an effort to help out the Oswalds, and I think that this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were leaving for Haiti.

George and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. Sometimes more than that. And I know that quite frequently they came to our house at 9:00 or so in the evening and they would have just come from the Oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "And those poor souls are looking at the wall and fighting each other."

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember that on or about April of 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?

Mr. Ballen. Not in any detail. We may have. George and I would discuss either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that occurred. I'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some pleasantry about it, but I don't recall and doubt if I ever discussed it with him in any great——

Mr. Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention Oswald's name to you in connection with the attempt on Walker's life?

Mr. Liebeler. Did De Mohrenschildt ever mention to you that Oswald owned a rifle?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind in that conversation?

Mr. Liebeler. Was the time that Oswald came to your office the first time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that?

Mr. Ballen. If I had met him previously, it would have been on a Sunday morning in the De Mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of about 40 minutes, but I am about satisfied, in talking to other people, that the individual I met on that Sunday morning was not Oswald, but some other stray dog.

Mr. Ballen. I don't know his name. This was someone who had worked his way here either from Hungary or Bulgaria.

Mr. Ballen. I don't know his name. This was one of the individuals De Mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of 4 or 5 or 6 weeks.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Ballen. When I first heard of Oswald's arrest, I didn't realize that this was the chap I had met. It only dawned upon me about 2 or 3 hours later that this was the chap I met.

I told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake, that I didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and she said, what do you mean? She said they picked him up and got the gun. I said Oswald wasn't that sort of guy. I told my wife that if you lined up 50 individuals, the one55 person who would stand out as being suspicious or strange would be Lee Harvey Oswald, but I was very surprised when Oswald was arrested.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any further conversations along that line with your wife?

Mr. Ballen. Well, as this story developed day by day, we would naturally discuss it.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you still have the same view that you expressed to your wife when you first learned of the assassination?

Mr. Ballen. I want to read the report that I assume the Warren Commission will ultimately publish. The circumstantial evidence as reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and I am looking forward to seeing the published report.

Mr. Liebeler. It would certainly be fair to say, however, would it not, Mr. Ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had any reason to believe that Oswald was capable or would be inclined to commit an act of this sort, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you had any conversation with De Mohrenschildt since this assassination?

Mr. Ballen. Only in a very guarded way, because I understood that mails in Haiti are subject to scrutiny, and I didn't know what his environment was down there, so I only corresponded with him in a very guarded way.

Mr. Ballen. I made no reference to the assassination directly. I said in one letter that I wanted to hear from him. I was—I wanted to know that he was okay. I didn't use those words in the letter, but he understood what I was asking him.

And I said it was a shame that he had to leave Dallas, that if he and Jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened, because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed mind out into the open air.

And I received one reply back from George's wife, and she thanked me for what she thought were kind sentiments.

Subsequently he chided me a little bit, and I again wrote to him and let him know I wondered how he was getting along.

And he wrote back and said, "I am fearful about you, all kinds of race riots and assassinations in Dallas, but how are you getting along? Let us hear from you."

Subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were guests in my house for 2 weeks, and so I learned from them about George and his wife, and I am about due another letter in the next week or so.

Mr. Ballen. No; I first started to save his letters when he and his wife walked through Central America, and this was a collection of letters, but I am not a letter saver. But I did save them, saved them until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are the only letters that I have ever saved.

56 Mr. Ballen. Rags and Chris Bogoiavlensky-Kearton. And the De Mohrenschildts call them Buggers.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that Rags and Chris stayed at your house for a period of time?

Mr. Ballen. Your guess is as good as mine is. I received a letter from him this morning. They are in Philadelphia on their way to New York.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not these two people, Rags and Chris, ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald?

Mr. Ballen. They say they had not, and in thinking through the chronology of events, I am satisfied that they did not. There was some confusion in my mind in my interview with the FBI about the individual who Rags and Chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try to help.

Mr. Liebeler. Was this the other person whom you described a little while back as another stray dog?

Mr. Liebeler. While Rags and Chris stayed at your house, did you have any discussions with them as to what the De Mohrenschildts had said about the assassination?

Mr. Ballen. They were very upset that George and Jeanne were publicly stating in Port-au-Prince that the FBI had assassinated Kennedy, and that Oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to be banding about.

Mr. Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding you to say that Rags and Chris reported to you that De Mohrenschildt and his wife were saying publicly in Port-au-Prince that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of Kennedy and Oswald was a patsy?

Mr. Ballen. They told me that they stated that at a reception for members of the Foreign Diplomatic Corps in Port-au-Prince.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Rags and Chris tell you they heard De Mohrenschildt make this remark?

Mr. Ballen. That was the impression I had, but I couldn't answer your question directly.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the dates that Rags and Chris were in Port-au-Prince?

Mr. Ballen. This is March. I believe that Rags and Chris came through my house possibly the first week of December 1963. They stayed at my house one night. We had quite a bit of snow that night. They had come through in a mad rush from Alaska. They left Florida for Haiti, and they left Haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house.

Mr. Ballen. They left my house 2 Sundays ago, and they would have been at my house a total of 2 weeks. They would have arrived at my house at about March 2, something like that. They would have arrived at my house March 1, and left March 15, more or less.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you state for us, as best you can recall, the conversations that you had with Rags and Chris concerning these remarks allegedly made by De Mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house.

Mr. Ballen. This information was brought to me by Rags and Chris that they were very much upset about it. And I told Rags that probably all of George's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that I felt that sooner or later he would be called before the Warren Commission.

57 The FBI had already interviewed me, I told Rags, and that distressed him a little bit that the FBI was probably intercepting his mail and probably had a tail on him.

He thought I was kidding, and I said, no; that this was a pretty serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he then took the initiative to call the FBI and said if they wanted to see him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and so they came out to my house and interviewed him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether Rags told the FBI about the remarks that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made?

Mr. Ballen. I do not. I was out of the house when the FBI agent was there, but I kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room where they were.

Mr. Ballen. He was one of the agents who interviewed me from California. Had a very nice tan, but I don't know his name.

Mr. Liebeler. The interview that you have just referred to concerns your acquaintanceship with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I advised you that the names of the agent that interviewed you were W. James Wood and Raymond P. Yelchek?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Rags tell you anything about his conversations with De Mohrenschildt after De Mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of the President?

Mr. Ballen. Just to the extent that he or Chris had protested vigorously on politics generally with George, and as I had already known before Rags came to my house, the visit in Haiti had deteriorated into quite a personality clash.

I had gotten a letter from George which showed that he was very critical on personal grounds of Rags.

Mr. Ballen. These are personal matters, and I am just asking a question now. Is it within the realm of your interest? These are really personal matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a son-in-law of his wife, and, so, I wrote back to George and said that his anger was only natural, that the Navajos had a taboo against sons seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and maybe the Navajos know what they are talking about.

But to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a personal matter, and I really do not think it has anything—any bearing here. If you want me to discuss it, I will.

Mr. Liebeler. No; if you represent to me that the differences were of a purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me.

Mr. Ballen. With only one exception, and that is that George, by his overall nature, is leaning to left center, and Rags, by his overall nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this was one of the sources of some conflict.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you told us everything that you can remember about your conversations with Rags concerning these statements by De Mohrenschildt that the FBI was responsible for the assassination? Tell us everything about that that you can remember, either about your conversation with Rags, or what Rags told you about his conversation with De Mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to De Mohrenschildt's statements.

58 Mr. Ballen. He or Chris said that the American Embassy down there was very disturbed that George, at a cocktail party possibly run by, well, I think by someone in the Foreign Corps there, whether it be the French, that George or Jeanne had made this statement, and it was a foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and I think also at that party there was a Negro emissary from one of the newly free republics in Africa who told the Haitians that if Haiti is the result of 300 years of freedom, he would like to go back to French rule.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Rags specifically mention the names of anybody else who was at this party, that you can remember?

Mr. Ballen. No; I don't think so. And if he had, it wouldn't rest with me. This was one of numerous cocktail parties down there.

I had the impression, from what Rags said, that this was George's statement and was known to the American Embassy down there.

Mr. Ballen. That it was distressing to the American Embassy, and that George and Jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the American Embassy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Rags indicate whether or not De Mohrenschildt had been interviewed by the FBI while he was living in Port-au-Prince?

Mr. Ballen. Yes; George had said to me in one of his letters that he had had a previous visit with the FBI, and then subsequently Mr. Wood—was that his name?

Mr. Ballen. He subsequently; yes, subsequently I believe Mr. Wood indicated that he had gone down there and also had met George.

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Wood indicated that to you at some point in his interview of you, is that correct?

Mr. Ballen. No; after his interview with me he indicated to Chris and Rags that he had just the day before or 2 days before seen George and Jeanne previously at the American Embassy at Port-au-Prince and they were looking fine.

But prior to that, much prior to that, I had written to George and told him that I had received a visit from the FBI inquiring about him. And he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the gray flannel suit boys.

Mr. Liebeler. Based on your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt and your knowledge of De Mohrenschildt's relations with Oswald, do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that De Mohrenschildt could have been involved in the assassination in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you discussed with anybody the possibility of De Mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination?

Mr. Ballen. Only to the extent that on November 23, when I realized that I had known Oswald and I realized how I had met him, my wife and I then said, how in heck did George meet him and that George had better have a good answer to that one.

And during the ensuing months I have made inquiries of the Russian colony here and kind of came to the understanding that George had met him through George Bouhe.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember who told you that De Mohrenschildt and Oswald had met through Bouhe?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with any of these people the possibility that De Mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the assassination?

59 Mr. Ballen. No; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is, the first time I have heard that question raised is today.

Mr. Liebeler. Yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified, when you heard that, when you recalled that Oswald was the man that De Mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife De Mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met Oswald; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. In your letters with De Mohrenschildt or through the contact that you had with De Mohrenschildt through Rags and Chris, did you learn what the last contact was that De Mohrenschildt had with Oswald prior to the assassination?

Mr. Ballen. No; this was not discussed with any of them. I have the feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their leaving Dallas for Haiti 9 months ago.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't know that Oswald and De Mohrenschildt corresponded after De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of any other matter about which you might have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think should be brought to the attention of the Commission in connection with this matter?

Mr. Ballen. I would only add that in my opinion, George is an extremely discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best, but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and I would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as anyone on the type of person that Lee Harvey Oswald was.

George was speaking the language. There was a rapport. They were both familiar with the same geography, and George and his wife were befriending him. I would think George could give a pretty good personality sketch and political sketch on Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth in the remark that De Mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning the FBI's involvement in the assassination and Oswald's being a patsy.

Mr. Ballen. No, sir; I have no reason to believe that. I would only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my mind about Lee Harvey Oswald, and if I were to draw up alternative possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of 10,000 other possibilities, I suppose included in that 10,000 might be some unofficial cabal of the FBI, but the answer to your question is "No."

Mr. Liebeler. Did Rags or Chris indicate to you whether or not either of the De Mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that the FBI was involved?

Let me ask you preliminarily, did Rags or Chris indicate that De Mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have uttered?

Mr. Ballen. They indicated that in De Mohrenschildt's emotional state, that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at.

Mr. Liebeler. Now let's go back to the preceding question. Were there any reasons expressed by De Mohrenschildt for this belief?

Mr. Ballen. No; because Rags and Chris said this is a madness. That there are no reasons, and this is a madness.

Mr. Liebeler. Had De Mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he believed this?

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK

The testimony of Mrs. Lydia Dymitruk was taken on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

I am about to take your testimony by deposition. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Dymitruk, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the staff counsel and consultant for and to the Commission appointed by the President of the United States to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy.

Now this is a Commission appointed pursuant to Executive Order of the President of the United States, Mr. Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of the Congress of the United States No. 137.

Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your deposition taken?

Mr. Jenner. And included with that letter were copies of the Executive order and the resolution to which I have made reference?

Mr. Jenner. And, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine American citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning?

Mr. Jenner. As it appears from the Executive order and the resolution, the Commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain respecting and relating to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and also the subsequent death of Lee Oswald, and persons involved in those two unfortunate events. And it is our information that you have some possible information that might help us with respect to Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and I should like to question you about that.

Mr. Jenner. You seem a little excited. Why don't you sit back and relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. Nothing's going to happen to you.

Mr. Jenner. And it is spelled [spelling] L-y-d-i-a. And Dymitruk is [spelling] D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k?

Mr. Jenner. And I'm not going to ask you if Fort Worth is a suburb of Dallas—because I understand that would offend you.

Mr. Jenner. But it is a large Texas city about, what—25 or 30 miles from here?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, it's a splendid town. You're employed at the Neiman-Marcus store in Fort Worth?

Mrs. Dymitruk. It is—it is beautiful store and nice place to work—and I like it.

Mr. Jenner. I might occasionally have to ask what might be considered personal questions but I'm not merely curious—I'm seeking information.

Tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from Russia, where you were born, to Belgium.

Mrs. Dymitruk. In 1942, we were kidnapped from the Germans during the war and brought to Germany—Dusseldorf.

Mrs. Dymitruk. No; just sister—an older sister and I and that's all. We are separated from the family.

Mr. Jenner. And then you were freed by the advancing Allied armies, essentially?

Mr. Jenner. All right. So you were about 15 years old when you were captured by the Germans?

Mrs. Dymitruk. And a little sister—she was born after the war, in 1947. So, I haven't seen her.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; was your father an active member of the Communist Party, for example?

Mrs. Dymitruk. We were divorced for, I think, 3 years ago—3½ years ago. I don't know where he is.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yes; he settled for awhile. And—uh—he never settled down in same place. He always traveled all over United States to find a better place to live. But I like here, and I stay here.

Mrs. Dymitruk. I applied 5 years ago when I came to this country that I would like to be American citizen. I can read, I can speak, but I can't write. So that's why I have to go to school first.

Mr. Jenner. I met him the other day. Monday, as a matter of—what is today? Yes, Monday.

George Bouhe—he's a resident here in Dallas, a man who takes a great interest in all Russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a little church, did he not?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yes. He's not just to help Russian people, he helps everybody—Germans, Belgians, everybody.

Mrs. Dymitruk. And, since then, once in while I see her in church or I go visit her at home.

Mrs. Dymitruk. I don't know the name because I go to both churches. One is Father Dimitri's church on Newton Avenue. I went there and few times I went to George Bouhe—but I don't know the name. I don't know if it's his name or not. I don't know; really. That's his church and he just likes everybody to go there—but I prefer to go to this one—Father Dimitri's church.

Mrs. Dymitruk. So, once in while, I see Anna Meller at a party somewhere or when I'm in Dallas, I visit with her and her husband.

Mr. Jenner. And was there an occasion when there was an interchange between you and Mrs. Meller with respect to the possibility of your befriending or harboring another lady—taking somebody into your home—your apartment?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation at any time between you and Mrs. Meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home temporarily?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Well, I couldn't take in my home because I got just one little room. I couldn't take. But it was once a conversation—I remember it—that Marina Oswald, she was looking to live with somebody in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her husband.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yes. It was some kind of conversation that I ought to help her, or something, but I didn't know her in that time.

Mrs. Dymitruk. It was from Anna Meller. Anna Meller and George Bouhe. Both of them.

Mrs. Dymitruk. About, yes. That she's separated from her husband and she are looking for—uh—to help—for somebody can help her to find a living or somewhere. But she was at that time somewhere living with somebody, but I don't know with whom.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Did George Bouhe or Mrs. Meller then tell you about this lady?

Mrs. Dymitruk. I visit her on Sunday once and—uh—she told me that Marina was in her apartment for a week.

Mrs. Dymitruk. With Mrs. Meller; Yes. And that she went back to her husband and that she called, that was on Sunday, and she cried that her baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Mrs. Meller; yes. She asked me if I want to go and see her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because I've got my own transportation. And I told her on Sunday, I don't want to go. So—and I thought about it on Monday and I think, "Well, I don't know. If something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. I better go." So, on Tuesday was my day off and so Anna Meller she give me the address and she says, "If you can go—if you go to her and see her, could you bring the books?" They borrowed a dictionary—English dictionary—hers and George Bouhe's—dictionaries. I said, "Well, okay."

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Mrs. Meller asked you that if you went to the Oswalds, would you please bring with you——

Mr. Jenner. English dictionaries that the Mellers had; that you would then bring them——

Mrs. Dymitruk. There was two books. One, George gave it to her; and other one, Anna Meller gave it to her.

Mrs. Dymitruk. And on Tuesday I went to Marina's house—I found her house—and——

Mrs. Dymitruk. At first, I couldn't find her at all. I went, first, to see the landlady, and I talked to her for a minute—maybe 5 or 10 minutes—and I ask her where she lives, in which apartment. There was so many apartments—some empty—and, you know, I just couldn't find her. So, she showed me where to go up to find her. So, I came there, I knocked on door and she came. And I asked her if she was Marina Oswald and she said, "Yes."

Mrs. Dymitruk. That's the first time. I think was the first time. The first I remember.

And I said to her, "I hear that your baby is sick. Anna Meller told me that your baby's very sick and you need help. And maybe I can help you to bring that baby to the hospital."

"Oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and I'm in trouble with him. I don't know what to do."

I said, "Well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." I said, "Do you have a doctor of your own?"

She said, "Well, I don't know. It was some kind of doctor before, but I don't know."

Mr. Jenner. And, I take it, you have a fluent command of the Russian language—you speak Russian well?

Mr. Jenner. And do you have an impression as to Marina? Did she speak Russian well?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Fever. And I said—it was some kind of cold weather—"You had better put some warm clothes—and in the car it's warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby."

Mr. Jenner. And tell us what you observed as to the conditions around the apartment. How she was dressed; whether you thought they might or did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? You know.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Uh—I think she was all right. And house was clean. And it was, I mean, it was nice apartment. I lived in much worse apartment when I came to United States—so——

Mr. Jenner. Could not walk? All right. That's really what I was getting at. She was carrying the baby in her arms?

Mr. Jenner. Could you recall a little more clearly what she said about her husband? That is, was she having difficulty with him or were they getting along well—or what was your impression in that respect?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Well, I haven't seen him at all—so, I couldn't say anything——

Mrs. Dymitruk. Oh, that's what she said about her husband—that he's against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to pay the bills.

Mrs. Dymitruk. So, I said to her at the Parkland Hospital you don't have to pay anything or maybe something—I don't know.

Mrs. Dymitruk. So, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked the baby, fever 103, they give some little medicine for the temperature to go down, and they said, "I'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have a children's doctor here."

Mrs. Dymitruk. No; I was little bit surprised because they deliver babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's doctor.

Mrs. Dymitruk. And I said, "Well, what we can do right now? I don't know what to do with the baby now."

Because the baby couldn't breathe and I don't know—I don't have my own children but really I was scared to see baby.

Mrs. Dymitruk. And they said, "Well, we give the address to go to another children's hospital in Dallas."

Mrs. Dymitruk. Sir, I don't remember. It was a little hospital—children's hospital. I think it was free. You don't have to pay anything.

Mrs. Dymitruk. So, when I come there there were at least 40 children there waiting.

And at first I asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is possible right away.

Mrs. Dymitruk. "I cannot—because they have so many children here and you have to wait your turn."

I said, "Maybe those children——"—I see around there—playing around—so, I say, "Maybe they don't have a fever high like this. Can't you take baby right away?"

So, I brought her home. It was about 2 o'clock. And I said to her, "Well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. If you want it, I can take you to hospital this evening."

So I came to see her around, maybe 6 o'clock—maybe 5 o'clock or something—I don't remember. But when I came home to see her her husband wasn't home.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Was not. I said, "Now, Marina, I would like to take you to the hospital. Do you want to go?"

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yes; and I was really surprised—in short time, he spoke nicely.

So—and I asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. And he said, "I don't know. I can't afford it. I can't pay."

So they went to the living room and I was sitting in the kitchen, and they were fighting in the living room—what to do—to go or not to go.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Well, they were just—uh—I don't know what it was all about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to the hospital.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. And from what you heard of this argument, he didn't want to go, she did?

Mrs. Dymitruk. No; no. So then he decide that he want to go to the hospital and take his baby. I said, "All right."

So, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. And there were children waiting and we wait. So he took care of the baby. He—the doctor took a blood test and took a X-ray—a lung X-ray and, I don't know, all kind of tests, right away.

So, on the way back—he got some kind of papers, I think it was two copies or three copies of papers——

Mrs. Dymitruk. So, at the service desk—he was standing here [indicating], I was behind him, and Marina was behind me with the baby. So—and the service desk asked question—the address and if he's working, and he said "No."

Mrs. Dymitruk. No. Then she said, "Do you have unemployment—do you get some unemployment money?"

Mr. Jenner. Did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just told us?

Mrs. Dymitruk. To turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, I think so—but he put it in his pocket.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yeah. You know, one thing, he said, "I don't want to pay any penny. It's suppose to be free. Doctors and everything in Russia is free. It's suppose to be free here, too."

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of his argument was that these things were free in Russia——

Mr. Jenner. And he shouldn't be required to pay? If they were free, he shouldn't be paying?

Mrs. Dymitruk. I have seen her. It was in 1963, summertime—I think was in July or June, or something like that. I saw her in Irving. I worked in Irving as manager of a French bakery in the Wyatt's Store—located in Wyatt's Store there.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Thank you. And I saw her with little baby and her dressed maternity.

I said, "Well," I said, "that's something." I said, "How is your husband doing?"

Mrs. Dymitruk. Very—not too bad. But I was surprised at her. Because I thought she was English first—her type of face.

Mrs. Dymitruk. And she said, "Well, no. I'm American—and I went to the university and studied Russian—and I practice now with Marina."

I said, "Why Russian?" I said, "Well, in United States, if you need another language, you study Spanish or French or German. Why Russian?

Mrs. Dymitruk. "Oh," she said, "I don't know, but I like very much the Russian language.

And they sit down on the table and I give them some coffee. And she say that the lady was with her, she will drive her to New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. The lady who was accompanying Marina was going to drive Marina to New Orleans?

Mrs. Dymitruk. In summertime. Just before we close up the store. I think was in July, or maybe June. I'm not sure.

Mr. Jenner. And is that the last time you had even any indirect contact—people speaking of her—that is, prior to November 22—did you hear about her in between?

Mr. Jenner. When you were assisting them with their child and went to their apartment, that apartment was here in Dallas, was it?

Mr. Jenner. In your driving to the clinic that evening with Lee Oswald and Marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of his views with respect to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Did you learn, during the course of those visits with Marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether he had been in Russia?

Mr. Jenner. You knew that before—well, I'll ask you this: How did you know he had been to Russia?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Yes; he told me about it—uh—one person who went to Russia and then he come back with Russian wife and a baby—back to United States. "Well," I say, "that's one thing—that he learned something. To go to Russia and he didn't like it and then he come back. He was just lucky that he did come back to United States."

Mr. Jenner. In your talks with Marina that morning, when you were taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her a good many hours?

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting Oswald in Russia? Did she tell you anything about her life or their lives in Russia and their life here in the United States? Did you girls have some smalltalk?

Mr. Jenner. Fine. Tell me about that. Was it, to the best of your recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to Russia, including himself and her?

Mr. Jenner. Or was it that he wanted her to go back to Russia and he was going to stay here?

71 Mrs. Dymitruk. And she said, "He can go if he want to, but I don't go—because I like here and I don't go."

Mr. Jenner. Now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this day when you were with them for a good many hours?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Well, I asked her if she like United States. She says, "United States, I do—but not everything"

I said to her that in United States we have, when you work with a company, you have insurance. You pay just a little every month and then if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay.

"Well, in Russia, when a baby is born in Russia—my baby was born in Russia, and they took care and when I come home from the hospital there was a nurse for 8 days in my room who took care of the baby—and why is it not in United States like this?"

I said to her, "Well, you just can't compare two countries—Russia and United States." I said, "I am longer here and I can explain so you will understand."

Mrs. Dymitruk. "Well," she said, "it's still too expensive. If you have to go doctor, you pay the visit."

I said, "You can go to the hospital—to the Parkland Hospital and it cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything."

Mrs. Dymitruk. "If you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to doctor, then you pay $10 or $5 or something like that." I said, "Why, that's nothing."

I said, "Well, that's why I'm taking you to hospital—to Parkland Hospital—to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything."

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to go back with her?

Mrs. Dymitruk. With her. And she said, "I don't want to go. If he want to go, he can go by himself. I stay here."

Mr. Jenner. Now, did she say anything, during the course of this time you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the United States?

Mrs. Dymitruk. She told me that he was unhappy and that he was very disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in Russia and the people find out that he was in Russia, so he's on the street.

Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would like to call my attention and, through me, the Commission, that you think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important investigation?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone American who goes from United States to Russia, let them there. Don't bring them back. That's the only thing that I can say. It's no reason to leave United States and change your nationality or something. Because I have experience myself. I lived in Russia for 15 years and, in my childhood, I knew too much about the life in Russia. And I can't see any reason that American want to go to Russia and to accept Russian life—I mean the Communists. I can't see that.

Mr. Jenner. And it's your viewpoint that if any American goes to Russia with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there?

Mrs. Dymitruk. Not encourage—or if he ask to come back, just let him stay there.

Mrs. Dymitruk. Let's see—Uh—one thing that I'm just always wonder about Marina and her husband—that she knew—if she knew that her husband tried to kill General Walker. I think she was responsible, in that case, to tell the Government or somebody in Government that her husband tried to do this.

Mr. Jenner. Your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a husband, or whomever it might have been——

Mr. Jenner. That was involved in such an incident, that it should have been disclosed to the police or the Government?

Now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter hasn't been transcribing. Is there anything that occurred during the course of any off-the-record discussion that I haven't brought out in questioning you that you think is pertinent here?

Now, Mrs. Dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine young lady will have it some time next week. You may read it if you desire, or not—as you see fit. And some people like to read it over and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. That's optional. You may or may not as you see fit. And you have a right to do this if you want. You also may waive it.

Thank you very much. We appreciate your coming voluntarily. It's certainly an inconvenience, I know, but you've been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR

The testimony of Mr. Gary E. Taylor was taken at 2 p.m. on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was also present.

In your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Taylor, did you receive recently—I guess it was last week—a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Presidential Assassination Commission——

Mr. Jenner. And was there included with that letter a copy of the Executive Order of President Lyndon B. Johnson, No. 11130 of November 29, 1963, in which he appoints and authorizes the Commission and directs that it prescribe its procedures——

Mr. Jenner. Together with a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the 88th Congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the creation of the Commission?

Mr. Jenner. Pursuant to that Executive Order and the Senate joint resolution, the Presidential Assassination Commission is investigating all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the assassination of the President and all the facts and circumstances surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it.

We have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the Oswalds and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the Oswalds and that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might be helpful.

I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission which, you will notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions here in Dallas and conduct the examination.

Mr. Jenner. Did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring you to Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. Your parents came here. All right. And what is your business or occupation or profession?

Mr. Taylor. A recording company whose primary function is the recording of radio and television commercials.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—prior to joining the Sellers Co. in September last, I was self-employed in the Motion Picture Industry in Dallas as a grip and assistant cameraman. Before that, I worked at various part-time jobs and attended college at Arlington State.

Mr. Jenner. So, you've had elementary and high school education and 3 years at Arlington State?

Mr. Jenner. During the time you had your interest, which you still may have, in—what did you say—photographing?

Mr. Taylor. Oh—it was motion picture work primarily centered around television commercials.

Mr. Jenner. Did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either Marina or Lee Oswald?

Mr. Taylor. I don't actually remember. I met both of them on the same day in their home.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any information about them prior to the time you met them?

Mr. Jenner. Was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or was it a purposeful meeting?

Mr. Jenner. Prearranged. All right. We'll get to the purpose in a moment, if we can defer that for a bit.

Would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the Oswalds and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now indicated?

75 Mr. Jenner. In other words, how did it come about—from the beginning of the world to the present?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—about a week before I met them, uh—my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother. That would be either Mr. or Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt [spelling] D-e M-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. And the first name is George. And do you know the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's first name—given name?

Mr. Taylor. Yes—uh—it is pronounced as the Dutch would say it—Zhon. I believe that she uses the French spelling of the name, although I'm not familiar with it.

Mr. Taylor. Of George De Mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as Mrs. J. M. Brandel.

Mr. Jenner. And the present Mrs. Brandel—she was the wife of George De Mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife?

Mr. Taylor. Just the letter B. I believe Stellara means apartment in Italian. Vagna Clara [spelling] V-a-g-n-a C-l-a-r-a, Rome, Italy.

Mr. Jenner. And was the present Mrs. Brandel the first wife, second wife, third wife of Mr. George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Jenner. Are you informed that in addition to the present Mrs. Brandel and the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt also was married to at least one, if not two other women?

Mr. Taylor. I know very little about her, other than that her name is Dee—her first name is Dee.

Mr. Taylor. She may have been. And that they had two children, one of which is deceased.

Mr. Taylor. Her given name is Nodjia—and I do not know the spelling of it. It is, I believe, a Russian name.

Mr. Jenner. The impression is, at least, that she is living with her mother in Philadelphia?

Mr. Jenner. You are aware of the fact that George De Mohrenschildt and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in Port-au-Prince, Haiti?

Mr. Jenner. In order that the record be not too confused, I think it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your meeting with Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald, and then I will go back when we finish that subject, and put the De Mohrenschildts in proper perspective.

Mr. Jenner. We have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, Mr. Taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the De Mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the De Mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection?

(At this point, Mr. Jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting how his meeting with the Oswalds came about.)

Your Reporter. [Reading] "About a week before I met them, my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother—Mr. and Mrs. George De Mohrenschildt."

Mr. Taylor. That a Russian girl, Mrs. Oswald, was living in Fort Worth with her husband, and that they were going to be—the De Mohrenschildts were going to be in Fort Worth on Sunday afternoon attending a concert and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the De Mohrenschildts, and visit the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Had you ever heard of a Lee Oswald or of an American being back here with a Russian wife—or was this entirely new to you?

Mr. Taylor. This was new to me. I was not aware of the presence of either one of them prior to this.

Mr. Jenner. And, from a conversation we had while we were off the record,77 the wife you now speak of—that is, back in 1962—that is not your present wife?

Mr. Taylor. And we met them, as they had suggested, in Fort Worth one Sunday afternoon.

Mr. Taylor. We went to the Oswalds' home. We had been given an address and a time when the De Mohrenschildts would already have arrived.

Mr. Jenner. And when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law and mother-in-law present?

Mr. Jenner. Describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare or new furniture—or what did it look like inside?

Mr. Taylor. It was a comparatively bare room, as I remember, uncarpeted. The furniture was badly worn. It was, however, clean—particularly so considering the number of people that were there.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you entered that room, there were present two persons introduced to you as Mr. and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. And your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the De Mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife—anybody else present?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; several other people were present. Lee Oswald's mother was there.

Mr. Taylor. Yes. George Bouhe was there. A Mr. and Mrs. Hall was there—John Hall and his estranged wife. I'm not sure of her name—first name.

Mr. Jenner. Which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the time that you stepped into this room?

Mr. Jenner. So, this was your first acquaintance with the Halls, your first acquaintance with Marguerite Oswald, and your first acquaintance with Lee and Marina Oswald?

78 Mr. Taylor. I don't remember but very sketchily what went on that afternoon. There's a number of questions in my mind about what preceded—I mean, Mrs. Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. Will you please state them and where you are stating a question in your mind as distinct from something that was said——

Mr. Taylor. Well, I will come to that. I was only trying to establish a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. Mrs. Oswald left shortly after I arrived.

Mr. Taylor. Not except in news media. Never in person other than that one afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. And you've had no contact with her directly since this particular occasion you are now relating?

Mr. Jenner. And the news media to which you refer is news media activities subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in those few minutes?

Mr. Taylor. I just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman who seemed to be—uh—out of place in the present crowd that was there that afternoon. And she didn't seem to be particularly interested in anything that went on—and I think that's what prompted her to leave.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion from those observations as to the attitude between Lee Oswald and Marguerite?

Mr. Taylor. I would say that it was one of estrangement between them; that they had very little communication between them; that they were almost strangers—and possibly even didn't like each other. Particularly on Lee's part, I should think.

Mr. Jenner. All right. September 1962. Okay—I've got myself oriented. Go ahead.

Mr. Taylor. And that we talked generally about some of the things that—uh—some of Lee's observations about Russia.

Mr. Taylor. He spoke in English when talking to my wife of that time or I; and quite often in Russian—as I believe everyone in the room spoke Russian except my wife, myself, and John Hall. I'm not sure if John Hall spoke Russian or not—but certainly both the De Mohrenschildts, and George Bouhe does.

Mr. Jenner. George Bouhe, both of the De Mohrenschildts—your mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the Oswalds—Lee and Marina?

Mr. Taylor. She had a knowledge of Russian but certainly not enough to converse with them. She could understand some Russian when it was spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words.

Mr. Jenner. Could she follow a normal conversation between two others who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and pick up?

Mr. Taylor. I imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it.

Mr. Jenner. I believe I interrupted you at a point where you stated that you talked generally about some of Lee's experiences and observations about Russia.79 Would you continue from that point, indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about Lee's experiences in Russia?

Mr. Taylor. It's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked of that day. Perhaps it would be better if I—uh—told you all I can remember that he said about Russia on several occasions now rather than—because I cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that day.

Mr. Jenner. All right. So we can get one point in the record—I'll probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. But give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to make.

Mr. Taylor. All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed the life that he led in Russia, his experiences in Russia, and his general observations about it. I guess I should best start with his observations of family life there.

He and Marina lived in an apartment. It was about 10 x 14. And he remarked that all families in Russia lived in apartments of this approximate size regardless of the size of the families—that there were no private residences as we think of them. And that six family units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and where all the families shared the same facilities. And that he and Marina did live in this manner. That he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration for his work 45 rubles a month—which was the minimum, he said, that everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.

He went into some detail about what is received directly from the State without payment. In other words, what services a Russian citizen receives in what we would call socialized services—such as medicine. A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house—apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to pay for it. There is no charge for this. And we also discussed what other people made. I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month for her work as a pharmacist. And that she had received training in that. And we discussed their school system somewhat—how a student that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to a level of which they are capable and then put to work.

And we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit further, and I learned that a person does get raises in a job, that salaries—once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as you continue through the years on a skilled job.

Mr. Taylor. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, he gets a raise over and above that.

Mr. Jenner. Then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of time and has no relation to skill?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about—take the example he gave—machine operator—if the machine operator next to Oswald, for example—take a hypothetical person—is much more skillful then Oswald, is the compensation the same?

Mr. Taylor. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age—I don't remember what that was—would be receiving something just under 200 rubles a month for performing the same task.

Mr. Jenner. Did he indicate a comparative relationship between the ruble and the dollar—to give you some notion of what 45 rubles a month, for example, or 200 rubles a month meant in terms of American money?

Mr. Taylor. I asked Lee that question, as I remember, and he told me that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free services given to the citizen by the Government; that, for example, out of his 45 rubles a month80 that he had to buy little other than food and clothing; and that the 45 rubles a month would buy food, a bare minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual.

Mr. Taylor. Just enough to get going on—in both cases. And that his impression—the impression he left with me was that a person needed little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these things were held by the State so that—uh—to get the families out of these cramped quarters, that everything—and constant entertainment in some form—athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of stage presentations—were held nightly away from the home, so that the families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this.

Mr. Jenner. It was all designed, in part at least, with that objective in mind—of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events?

Mr. Taylor. That's right. And we discussed travel for the average Russian citizen—which is nonexistent. A person that——

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your ability? You are not rationalizing or speculating from things you have read in works published with respect to life in Russia?

Mr. Taylor. He said that for the average worker or citizen in Russia that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in Minsk would probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. That living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what was across on the other side of the city. And this is just about the end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?

Mr. Taylor. I don't remember any specific comments that he made about that. The only thing I remember in this regard was that he did mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and that—uh—I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say that Marina, after they married, that Marina worked as well as he?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about custom and habit in Russia that wives worked?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; he mentioned that most wives—most women do work. He didn't, as I remember, go into any specifics about it. I don't remember much being said about it other than that most women do work—or, I should say, they are encouraged to work.

Mr. Jenner. Did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on his reaction toward this life in Russia?

Mr. Taylor. He—uh—oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that he was dissatisfied with the life of the average Russian citizen; that they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this privilege as we enjoy it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about any privileges or any activities on his part that were different from—that is, that were accorded him—that were different from those accorded Russian people or foreigners, let us say, in Russia, having circumstances or work comparable to his? This is, was he treated or81 accorded benefits different from or in addition to those which would normally have been accorded him?

Mr. Taylor. I think he felt like that the situation that the Russians put him into—in other words, the environment they put him into—- was less than he had anticipated. This is only an impression now.

Mr. Taylor. It was never—we never discussed this. But I always felt like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to do.

Mr. Jenner. That is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with him discussing his life in Russia, that he had an opinion of himself that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted?

Mr. Taylor. I think that's true. He didn't—uh—I think he expected, as a former American, to be treated as something special—as though he were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. Of course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him.

Mr. Jenner. And your statement that he was very disappointed in what he actually received—did he say that to you? Was it more than just an impression on your part?

Mr. Taylor. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.

Mr. Taylor. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached the subject.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, have you exhausted your recollection as to what he told you of his life in Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about any independent activity on his part—that is, activity of his distinct from Marina—such as, for example, going hunting?

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever discussed by him with you?

Mr. Taylor. No; nor was the subject, which I think you were leading up to, of the Russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed.

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the United States and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I believe he said that—uh—he did have difficulties and that it took him—uh—about a year to get permission to come to this—return to this country with his wife.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort prior to his marriage—had commenced it prior to the time he had married Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between Marina and himself?

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in Russia?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Have we now exhausted his discussions with you with respect to the subject of his life in Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the United States?

Mr. Taylor. Oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in Russia and—uh—the place that he had been given in it.

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of Marina's inclinations in that connection—any desire on her part to come to the United States?

Mr. Taylor. No; there was never—uh—any discussion as to her feelings about coming to this country at all. I don't think, in any case, that they were important to him.

Mr. Jenner. At least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not with you directly?

Mr. Jenner. Was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss directly with you, their route back to the United States?

Mr. Taylor. No; I believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about that was that the American Embassy, I presume in Moscow, loaned him the money to return.

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his reaction to the Russian system, as such, distinguished now from what was accorded him which you have related—more in the area of the political area—the Communist system, as such, the political philosophy, as distinguished from the U.S.S.R. as a country or government?

Mr. Taylor. Well, everything that we discussed, of course—and the things I have related—illustrate the distinction between the two political governments—such as, services that a Russian citizen obtains free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the Russian citizen had. We did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat better than the average citizen lived.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, the Communist Party as distinct from the Russian Government?

Mr. Jenner. Did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his political philosophy?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—I would say that at the point in his life which I knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. He did not seem particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country or with government as it exists anywhere. I think he had been—and perhaps still was—a partisan of a Communist form of government, but, as it is practiced in Russia, I don't think that he liked it at all.

Mr. Jenner. All right. What else was discussed on this—was it a Sunday afternoon?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; there was a discussion about Lee's job—which I believe he had just left the Friday before. He was—he terminated his employment. I don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from it—and he wanted to move to Dallas. And there was some discussion about the move and it taking place, and so on, and I cannot be sure now whether it was this Sunday or the following Sunday that Marina came to stay in my home.

Mr. Taylor. I tend to think that it was that Sunday afternoon that we invited her to come and stay with us, and I believe Lee said——

Mr. Taylor. No; to actually come and stay with us from that Sunday evening forward.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—during their move. Just to give her a place to live until he was able to find a job here in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. It was, therefore, your impression, I take it, that your invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between Marina and Lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until Lee became established elsewhere?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I, at that time, was not aware that there was any marital disharmony.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I'm going to ask you that question as of that afternoon. What was your impression, if you have any, of the relationship between Marina and Lee as of that time?

Mr. Taylor. As of that time, it appeared to be normal—normal man and wife relationship. I think it was somewhat strained by a language barrier. Some of the people present, not speaking Russian, and she did not speak any English, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the other. But I was not able to sense any disharmony at that point.

Mr. Jenner. Now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion?

Mr. Taylor. Only to meet them and I hoped to learn something about Russia and how people live there.

Mr. Jenner. Have you now related all the subjects discussed at that meeting having a relation to the Oswalds and any part you would play in their lives?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—well, as I mentioned before, it was difficult to remember whether it was that Sunday or the following Sunday, but I tend to think that that Sunday evening, Marina and her daughter, June, returned to Dallas with my wife and I and that Lee stayed——

Mr. Taylor. Yes; at the time of the first meeting—at the end of it. And that Lee stayed in Fort Worth that night and that he and Mrs. Hall, some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings—more bulky ones other than clothing—to Mrs. Hall's garage and stored them there. And then he came to Dallas and—uh—took up residence at the Y.M.C.A. here.

Mr. Jenner. Uh-huh. Now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did take residence at the Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. Jenner. How long did Marina remain with you and your wife in your home, commencing that Sunday night?

Mr. Jenner. And she brought with her what—in addition to her child, of course?

Mr. Jenner. You say you spoke no Russian, you understood no Russian, your then wife understood a few words of Russian but had difficulty with the language?

Mr. Jenner. How did you get along about your social intercourse between Marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during this week?

Mr. Taylor. My social intercourse with Marina during this period was somewhat limited. She and my wife at that time, Alex, were able to—uh—not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company to some extent. My son and their daughter, June, are within a month of the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their being able to play with the children and the children play with each other.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have any visitors during that week—or did you say 2 weeks?

84 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, on one occasion I remember specifically, and probably Mr. De Mohrenschildt, and George Bouhe came one time.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I believe I, or someone, talked to Lee on the telephone and I believe I went down and got him. I went down to the Y.M.C.A.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front of the building?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—I think I did both. I remember specifically once going into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down.

Mr. Jenner. You asked for him, you were given a room number, you used the house telephone to call him? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. Taylor. Something—I just remember that I went in and asked for him and he came down. I did not go up to the room, but I do remember going in and his coming down to meet me.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I think it might be helpful, now, if you would continue from the point after your 3-hour visit in the Oswald apartment late Sunday afternoon and early evening. You then took Marina to your home. Your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there had been a telephone call by Lee to your home. As a result of that call, you went to the Y.M.C.A. Is that correct?

Mr. Taylor. Let's see, I believe I was talking, awhile back, about people that had seen them during this period, and I mentioned that there was only George Bouhe and Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And George Bouhe came by just, I think, to be sociable, and to see if he could give Lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. And at some point during this period——

Mr. Taylor. Yes; the 2-week period—Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and picked Marina up.

Mr. Taylor. Well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of them were gone, Marina's little girl, June, cried almost constantly because, I guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from her mother—and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the whole period Marina was gone—which, as I remember it, was the better part of 1 day. I think she had two teeth pulled, or something. I'm not sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, I think a charity—went to a charity dental clinic.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law?

Mr. Taylor. No—not to my recollection. I didn't take—uh—Marina anyplace that I remember.

Mr. Taylor. No; I know that there is one here; that they have one out at Baylor Hospital—but I'm not familiar with it otherwise.

85 Mr. Jenner. Would you fix the period when Marina was in your home—first, the month?

Mr. Jenner. And all of the stay was in the month of September, and none of it in the month of October 1962?

Mr. Taylor. My memory, as I say, is not clear back that far. But—uh—I personally have no recollection of dates involved. Even when I was first interviewed, I believed it to be during this period we are talking about. It was pinpointed for me one time that it would—that Lee left his job on or about the 6th of September and that, just going from that date, why it would, presuming, as I remember, that that was a Friday in 1962, I believe that they came—she came to my home for a period of 2 weeks after that. I don't believe that it lasted any longer.

Mr. Jenner. During this period, did you have occasion in calling from your home or place of business to call Lee Oswald at the Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. Taylor. I believe I—uh—I may not have personally. I may have dialed the telephone for Marina and asked for him so that she could talk to him.

Mr. Jenner. Well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either for yourself or for Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call to the Y.M.C.A. in an effort to reach Lee Oswald?

Mr. Taylor. No; not specifically. I could only say that it is probable that I would have.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I'll put it this way: Did you ever have any trouble finding Lee Oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the Y.M.C.A.?

Mr. Taylor. I never had any trouble locating him at the Y.M.C.A. when I made an attempt to. I never remember any difficulty in contacting him there.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I gather that Marina's visit at your home terminated at the end of about 2 weeks. Did anything occur during those 2 weeks about which we have not talked that arrested your attention?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—nothing, outside of possibly some insights into Marina—I mean, her personality and how she acted. There was nothing that arrested my attention.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine qualities—an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her dress. And she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all that she could about her new environment.

Mr. Taylor. And I do have one recollection pursuant to this about her desire to learn English.

Mr. Taylor. During the period that I knew them, on several occasions, this subject came up. And Lee was in opposition to her learning English—not—he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and say that he didn't want her to learn English but—uh—he was or did appear to be in opposition to it. And George De Mohrenschildt prepared for Marina several lessons in English—and I believe that Lee later took them away from her.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to have you give me as much on this series of incidents, with respect to her learning the English language and becoming more proficient in its use. First—as to what you based your present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? Something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in terms of conclusion that Lee did not wish her to learn the English language. And, secondly, that Lee took from her the86 English language lessons. I assume they were on sheets of paper. Is that correct?

Mr. Taylor. I remember asking Lee about his opposition to it on one occasion and as I remember he told me that—uh—or brushed it aside by saying, "It isn't necessary at this time"—something like that. And then, of course, he did take the lessons from her.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—because, as I remember, this was the first time that I had knowledge of her being beaten by him.

Mr. Taylor. As I remember it, shortly after they moved, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt——

Mr. Taylor. Moved into their apartment here in Dallas—the first apartment they had, on Elsbeth.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen Marina and that she had a black eye, I believe, and was crying and said that she and Lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from her, and——

Mr. Taylor. Yes; this is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt now. This is not Marina that said that.

Mr. Taylor. And—not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of their marital troubles, I seem to remember on one occasion where Marina left—I think this was somewhat later, probably in November——

Mr. Taylor. Left Lee and went to stay with someone—I don't remember who. It may have been this woman in Irving that she was living with.

Mr. Taylor. Mrs. Paine. I do not know where she went except that I was told that she had left him.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Anything else that comes to your mind with respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering this 2-week span while she was a visitor in your home?

Mr. Taylor. The only other observation I would make is that—again, it has to do with relationship between them—and that is that to my knowledge at all the meetings between them that I was present at during this 2-week period, there was no personal communication between them—at least, that I was able to determine. Of course, I couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in Russian. But, certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and woman married would want some time alone together. They could have—we had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could have taken walks and been alone together and talked—but this never happened.

Mr. Taylor. It was just like two friends meeting. There was nothing intimate or personal between them at these meetings.

Mr. Jenner. No expressions that you could understand or, at least, conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were evidences of love and affection?

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during the 2-week period?

87 Mr. Jenner. And on these occasions, was it always that he called and asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had been a previous arrangement—or what do you recall as to that?

Mr. Taylor. Well, I think perhaps once or twice Marina instigated their meetings, would call him and he would then come.

Mr. Taylor. I think he may even have come by himself once or twice. We were not far from downtown and had good bus service—and I remember at least one occasion where he rode the bus. He left late one evening and rode the bus back to town.

Mr. Jenner. Any questions, at any time during the 2-week period or at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the streets?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or three occasions.

Mr. Taylor. I don't remember him being present or having knowledge of them. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, and I never did.

Mr. Taylor. I never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to teach a beginner how to drive.

Mr. Jenner. Your understanding was from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that he was unable to operate an automobile?

Mr. Jenner. Did this conversation with respect to inducing you to attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether Mrs. De Mohrenschildt then, in Russian, spoke to Marina on the subject in your presence?

Mr. Taylor. No; I don't remember the details such as that on the various discussions we had. I just remember that on several occasions they did try to get me to do it, and I refused.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to you anything by them, Lee or Marina, financially for this generosity on your part of keeping her in your home for that 2-week period?

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive anything from anybody other than Marina and Lee Oswald?

Mr. Taylor. I never received any financial reimbursement for any of the expenditures that I made on their behalf.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the 2-week period concluded and was there something that occurred in particular that brought about the termination of that 2-week guest period?

Mr. Taylor. Mrs. Hall—I believe you said Elena—had an automobile accident and I think Marina went to Fort Worth and lived in Mrs. Hall's home so that she might help Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was at least semibedridden. She was certainly not able to get up and cook herself food and so on.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; the only reason I remember about Mr. Hall was by associating88 it with either Midland or Abilene—I don't remember which one. It was west Texas anyway. And he was living there at the time.

Mr. Jenner. And her leaving your home then—there was no cause or reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your memory of it, that Mrs. Hall had been involved in an automobile accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west Texas and at that time they were, as you understood, separated?

Mr. Jenner. And Marina went to Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth to help care for Mrs. Hall?

Mr. Jenner. Now, that would take us to about the last week in November—somewhere in that area—I mean September—is that correct?

Mr. Taylor. September; I should think; yes. Toward the end of September, and possibly even early in October—again, due to time, this is all quite vague—I had Lee with me. I don't remember where I got him. But Lee and my wife, Alex, and I went to Fort Worth and picked up Marina and their child and all of the Oswald's belongings that had, through this period, been stored at Mrs. Hall's, and brought them to Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. When you reached the Halls' you picked up the Oswalds' house paraphernalia, clothing and other things——

Mr. Jenner. Now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to be more specific as to how this came about?

Mr. Taylor. It doesn't. Not at all. I can't even remember now where I got Lee that day. I wish I could—for several reasons you are probably aware of. But I don't remember.

Do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the FBI on the 29th of January 1964.

Mr. Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection did you tell those agents at that time that you picked up Lee Oswald at the curb of the YMCA in Dallas and drove to Fort Worth to the Hall residence where Marina was living?

Mr. Taylor. Well, it is refreshing to my memory, but I would like to say this about it.

That in the course of several interviews by the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Dallas Police Department which have occurred, and between these and since the last one, I have naturally tried to remember all that I can concerning the areas in which I was vague in my memory. And at my last interview concerning this one particular item, it occurred to me that at one time—once—I went to—uh—and looked for a place where Lee was staying in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas and tried to locate him. I remember going and trying to locate him. I don't remember whether I found him or whether I did not. I know that—uh——

Mr. Taylor. No; that's the trouble. I can't pinpoint it as to time. I just remember some vague directions that——

Mr. Taylor. It had to be some time between September and November 15, because my wife and I separated after that. Anyway, at some point during this period, I do remember going to an area in Oak Cliff and looking for Lee. I don't think I found him—at least, not on the occasion I remember. All I had was some vague directions that——

Mr. Taylor. Well, directly from my wife but indirectly I believe that came to her from Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Taylor. I don't know why I was trying to locate him. I don't remember anything except I remember driving around one area one evening looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. As I say, I don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just of Lee.

I went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a building that stuck—or I had a recollection of one building in this area and I went back to the area and found it and gave that information to Agent Yelchek of the FBI. I don't know what he——

Mr. Taylor. I gave him the exact street address—but it seems to me like it was—well, the name of the apartment building was the Coz-I-Eight [spelling] C-o-z—I—E-i-g-h-t—apartments, and I think they were located at 1404 North Beckley. But the address I could be off on; but the name I do remember.

Mr. Jenner. A more substantial-type thing than you had seen the Oswalds occupy prior thereto?

Mr. Jenner. Was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than the Elsbeth Street home, for example?

Mr. Jenner. Did the occasion arise in which Lee Oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and Marina to an apartment in Dallas?

Mr. Taylor. I'm not sure how definitely that was—I'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. I'm not sure. It was either Lee directly or Mrs. De Mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. Whichever it was, my wife and I got together with Lee, I believe, on a Sunday afternoon.

Mr. Taylor. I believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. And that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to Fort Worth and added Marina's to this—Marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were, and brought it all to the Elsbeth Street apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, and haul it back to Dallas? Or how did you do this?

Mr. Jenner. Now, where did you rent that trailer? Where was the place located from which you rented the trailer?

Mr. Taylor. I do not remember. I have even been to this place recently again with Mr. Yelchek of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. And we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where I had rented a small covered trailer and——

Mr. Jenner. And give me the location of the place you pinpointed with Mr. Yelchek.

Mr. Taylor. I don't remember an address on the service station. It is a mile or so north of Texas Christian University in Fort Worth.

Mr. Taylor. It—uh—could be University; yeah. However, it was not University Drive. It was another street which I just can't remember. This90 service station was west of the South Freeway, as I say, about a mile north of Texas Christian University.

Mr. Taylor. I did originally think that it was on University but, upon investigation of the—visual investigation, actually being there one evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place.

Mr. Jenner. The place that you located when Mr. Yelchek accompanied you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first talked to the FBI?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. There is no question about it.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; when Mr. Yelchek and I went. I was able to positively identify the location. I might add, after having talked to him since then, that the owner says that—or there is no record of the rental at this location. There seems to be a set of duplicate books involved—one for themselves and one for the National Trailer Co., whichever one it was. A little fraud, or something, involved in that. We didn't get too involved in it—just to know that there wasn't any record.

(Witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to Mr. Jenner.)

Did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's license number on that occasion?

Mr. Taylor. I don't remember. It's common—in fact, it's normal procedure to take the license number—driver's license and vehicle license.

Mr. Jenner. What's the practice in Texas in respect to license numbers? Do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker—or what?

Mr. Jenner. Do you ever recall having a license number with the digit letters "E" and "Y"?

Mr. Taylor. The "E" prefix—the prefixes beginning with "E" are for Tarrant County, of which Fort Worth is a part.

Mr. Jenner. And you being in Dallas County, your initials are what—your prefixes?

Mr. Taylor. In Dallas County they would be some of the "M" prefix, all of the "N" and "P".

Mr. Jenner. But it would be a combination of two or more of those three letters?

91 Mr. Taylor. It would be a combination of two letters beginning with the three that we have just been discussing.

Mr. Taylor. Beginning with either an M, an N, or a P. All of the N's and P's—like NA or NS or PA or PZ.

Mr. Taylor. I took the loaded trailer to an apartment on Elsbeth Street in Dallas.

Mr. Taylor. We unloaded it and I returned the trailer to the service station where I had rented it in Fort Worth.

Mr. Taylor. No. It wasn't given to me. I do not remember, however, who paid for it. I—it comes to mind that Lee probably did—but I can't say specifically that Lee did it.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee accompany you to the service station to rent the trailer in the first instance?

Mr. Jenner. And your recollection does not serve you now as to whether upon its return, he paid for it or you did?

Mr. Jenner. That would be an out-of-pocket payment. Would you say your recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not pay for it?

Mr. Jenner. You returned the trailer. Did you help put the household furniture and whatnot into their apartment?

Mr. Jenner. After you returned the trailer, did you return to their apartment that same afternoon or evening?

Mr. Taylor. I can't be absolutely sure whether I returned that evening or not. I'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. I don't——

Mr. Jenner. What is the distance from the Elsbeth Street address to Fort Worth—just approximately?

Mr. Taylor. Well, to the place in Fort Worth where the trailer was rented, I would say, it was about 30 miles. And, in case you're wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip.

Mr. Taylor. Sometime after the move—I am not, again, can't be specific about dates—my memory isn't that good—I visited them by myself, and I believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a collection of notes Lee had that he had compiled on his visit to Fort Worth—I mean, on his visit to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. I show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front entitled92 "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection with the Assassination of the President," which has been supplied to me by the Dallas city police, and I direct your attention to pages 148 to 157. And I ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by Lee Oswald on his trip or life in Russia?

Mr. Taylor. Can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? It will be a minute, because I only looked at part of this thing.

Mr. Jenner. Have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy of what purports to be a draft by Lee Harvey Oswald of various stages of his life, including time in Russia, in the Marines, the period in New Orleans, and what not?

Mr. Jenner. I should advise you, Mr. Taylor, that they are incomplete. That is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't happen to have. I could ask you this: Was it on the type of paper which is indicated in these photostats—that is, lined 8 by 11½ sheets?

Mr. Taylor. I would not know—this material? I'm sorry. I was thinking about——

Mr. Jenner. I interrupted you because you had mentioned something he showed you. Now, would you please go on?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; and the occasion for this visit that I was talking about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. And I had had this in my possession from the time Marina had been staying with us. I had asked him for it then and intended to read it. I did not ever read it fully. I read a page or two of it—of which my recollection is very dim. I remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or content? Was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in character, or do you have any impression about it?

Mr. Taylor. I don't have any impression—having read so little of it such a long time ago.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I did. I was treated as a very welcome guest. I assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was I was probably the only guest they had had—or at least certainly that guests were unusual, and that I was very welcome. As a matter of fact, almost immediately after I arrived, Marina left and walked some two and a half blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned.

93 And we just talked briefly that evening—not about anything in great detail. I stayed—I didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, I stayed perhaps an hour or 2 hours.

Mr. Jenner. How did they appear, in their relations one to the other, on this occasion?

Mr. Taylor. It appeared that—uh—they were getting along well. When I arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. He was sitting at a table, I think, reading and——

Mr. Taylor. A book, I believe. I think he checked out a number of books from the library.

Mr. Taylor. As I remember, they were primarily political philosophy. I don't remember any titles specifically. I think he did have a copy of—uh—at one time, of something by Karl Marx. I don't remember the title or name of the book.

Mr. Taylor. I'm aware of that title—but I just don't remember what he had a copy of.

Mr. Jenner. Books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and philosophy?

Mr. Jenner. All right. You had, I gather, a reasonably pleasant visit on this particular evening?

Mr. Taylor. I did not see both of them again after that. Sometime much later——

Mr. Taylor. No; I did make contact with them after my separation—if that's what you are alluding to. In the spring of 1963 I dropped by this Elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, I asked someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. And I think he was the manager. And he told me that they had moved and he told me where they had moved.

Mr. Taylor. He told me that they had moved into a small apartment about a block away. And I went there.

Mr. Taylor. Dallas—about a block away from Elsbeth. And, anyway, I went to this—where I had been directed, and found Marina at home.

Marina was at home. She—her English had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas. She said that Lee was not home, that—uh—I don't remember her saying where he was. She said that he was attending94 night school, Crozier Tech here in Dallas—which is our technical high school and——

Mr. Taylor. Yes; uh—because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and I remember the door was open and I thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys—a ball and something or other—were out there on this porch, and I thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had.

Mr. Jenner. Was that what led you to suggest that it was in the afternoon rather than the early evening? It doesn't get dark here in Texas—and this was what? The spring, did you say?

Mr. Taylor. Yes. No; you are trying to say that it may have been early evening, although it was still quite light. My memory tells me that it was midafternoon.

Mr. Taylor. I don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was working at all.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—I don't think at that time he was. Again, it's just a very, very vague recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, as to what studies he was pursuing at Crozier Tech?

Mr. Taylor. No; I don't believe that I remember what he was studying at all at Crozier Tech.

I did inform Marina of my impending divorce and—uh—in other words, telling her that Mrs. Taylor and I were no longer living together and we had separated. Uh—and she said that she had been ill, I believe. And—uh—she invited me to come back in the evening and I left. And I would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said that his attendance at Crozier Tech was in the night school?

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate to you that he was then at Crozier Tech or that he would be at Crozier Tech that evening?

Mr. Taylor. She, I don't believe, indicated either thing to me. I don't—I can't honestly say that she indicated where Lee was at the time. She may have said he was at work or not at work.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't have enough recollection to know whether she said he was employed and working and had work at that time?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—the general impression is that he was not working, but it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon.

Mr. Taylor. The previous occasion I have mentioned where I went to visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. That was the last time I saw Lee.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that time. I know that he wanted it very badly.

95 Mr. Taylor. Uh—yes, he did. On two occasions. And, on the second one, I think I got in the car and took it to him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, before I go to the De Mohrenschildts, I'd like you now to give me—now that we've had this discussion between us—your impressions of the Oswalds individually.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—my impression, first, of Lee would be that—uh—he was, first, rather confused, particularly, politically. He wanted to be well-informed and an idealist. He considered himself well-informed. I don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject.

In our conversations, when I would take exception to something he had said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas as being true—such as, well, the Republican and Democratic Parties have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and communism have.

Mr. Taylor. And he could present Communist ideas to a point that it was very superficial—and when you started digging down in to the meat of the subject, why, Lee was through.

He seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very good case for it.

Mr. Taylor. He would—uh—not any more so than anyone else you would get into a political discussion with. This seems to be a fairly emotional subject on everyone's part.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't regard him as a vicious type—as a man who would think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—well, I thought of him as a man who—uh—would kick a dog or beat his wife, but—uh—I was never afraid of him because I never felt like that he would attack anything his equal.

Mr. Taylor. Well, even a person—even a grown human being, any male, I wouldn't ever have expected this of him.

Anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, I would not have expected him to——

Mr. Taylor. He tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there was a very definite limit to it—even suggesting some inner cowardness.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have occasion to observe Marina when she had any black and blue marks on her person?

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever mention the administration of either of them or their policies?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—no; I'm not even sure that Connally was in office at that time.

I never heard Lee take exception to Government officials; take exception to Government policies—definitely——

Mr. Jenner. We all do this sometimes but never to the human being that might formulate them. Just to the policy itself. Did he ever mention Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein in your presence?

Mr. Jenner. Give me as best you can now recall—did you ever loan him any money or give him any money?

Mr. Jenner. Have you now told us all of the occasions in which you either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them?

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware that he was employed here in Dallas by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. Jenner. What did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, his personal habits in that respect?

Mr. Taylor. That his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his last bath. He was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; very much so. And the same thing applied to her treatment of the child. It never had a damp diaper on if she knew about it. It just had to be damp—it didn't have to be wet.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and I are dressed now—in a business coat?

Mr. Taylor. No. To my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say.

Mr. Jenner. Give me your judgment as to the relationship between Lee Oswald and George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—it's difficult to assess their relationship because there probably was more to it than I ever saw. But what little of it I saw, they were quite in opposition to each other—such as the lessons in English for Marina. But I certainly think that they must have been closer than they appeared or the De Mohrenschildts wouldn't have been so active in seeing that they got along well.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any opinion as to whether George De Mohrenschildt exercised any influence over Oswald?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. It would be my guess that De Mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to Dallas, and he suggested a number of things to Lee—such as where to look for jobs. And it seems like whatever his suggestions were, Lee grabbed them and took them—whether it was what time to go to bed or where to stay or to let Marina stay with us while he stayed at the YMCA.

Mr. Jenner. I want to finish with the Oswalds before I get to the De Mohrenschildts.

Tell me, chronologically, about the De Mohrenschildts and your relationships with them and who these various De Mohrenschildts are?

Mr. Taylor. He was born in Russia, I believe in Georgia. This is, of course,97 all what I had been told for a while here. He was born in Russia and I believe he went to the——

Mr. Jenner. His daughter. And this comes by way of conversations over a long period of time?

Mr. Taylor. He was born in Russia and, I believe, to a titled family. He claimed for himself the title of Baron. Original name was von Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Taylor. That's right. And that he came to this country—when, I'm not sure, but certainly prior to 1939 when he was associated with the University of Texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their Geology Department. And he married my former wife's mother in New York City.

Mr. Taylor. He married my former wife, Alex's, mother—the present Mrs. Brandel—in New York City.

Mr. Taylor. Before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather quickly after she was born.

And, from that time until he married the wife, Dee or Dee Dee, my knowledge of him is rather sketchy. I know that, at least, part of the time they were married he resided in Dallas, was evidently well-established in business here, and owned a home—which, I believe, he had built to his own plans—and was generally well-accepted here in the business community.

And then he gets a little vague—at least to my knowledge—after that until 1958 or 1959 when I first met him—1958, I'm sure.

Mr. Taylor. He was living with the present Mrs. De Mohrenschildt but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, Christiana or Chris or Jeanne, Jr.—whatever the particular alias she felt like at the moment. And I met them through her.

Mr. Taylor. No. This would be the half-sister. I guess it is a half-sister of my wife's.

Mr. Taylor. And I met Christiana through a mutual girl friend and we dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left Dallas and started attending U.C.L.A. as a student, and I don't believe I saw her any more until—uh—May or June of 1959.

Mr. Jenner. Was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a Nancy Tilton?

At any rate, I met—uh—at this time, I asked Chris out on a date and she98 said that she had her little sister—I think is the way she termed it at that time—visiting her, and could I find someone for her to go out with at the same time. And I did that, and I think we went out—couples of four, or two couples—on two occasions. And then I started dating the younger of the girls, which was Alex. And, during this time, why, I was in or around their home for a whole summer—in fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole family. Does that bring it chronologically up to date—or would you like the otherwise?

Mr. Taylor. I skipped Mrs. Brandel in this, I think. They were married, as I mentioned, in New York City approximately 3 months before my former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. And he stayed away—or stayed in the background of Alex's life until 1958 when he and Mrs. Brandel, his former wife and Alex's mother went into court and sued the previously mentioned Mrs. Tilton for her custody.

When Alex was born, Mrs. Tilton paid by check, which I saw, Mrs. Brandel $5,000 for custody of the daughter, Alex; and they had to go into court and get this custody set aside—at which time the daughter went to Paris and lived with Mrs. Brandel, where she lived at that time.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to Paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of 1959, when I met her.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; however, I was not even aware of Alex's existence until I met her that evening, as previously described.

My knowledge of her is that—uh—it's rather sketchy, because that's all my former wife knew of her.

She was born in China. I believe her parentage, at least on one side, was Russian. She claimed that, at any rate. And she traveled through her late teens and early twenties—I don't know exactly how long—with her former husband, Mr. Bogovallenskia, as ballet performers.

Mr. Jenner. I see. I have a spelling of that name, Mr. Taylor, which is B-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling].

Mr. Taylor. That may be more correct. This is phonetic here that I have [referring to paper].

Mr. Taylor. That is the name of Christiana's father and the man I was just saying that Jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in China.

All of the press clippings I saw, I think, were prior to World War II. And, as far as Mr. Bogo—as far as Chris' father is concerned, he was in Dallas during 1959 or 1960 and—uh—he had severe mental problems and Chris returned with him to California where, the last I heard, he was resident of a State mental hospital.

And Chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is Ragnar [spelling] R-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—I do not. My memory is rather vague, but it seems to me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice president or is the executive vice president of Hughes Aircraft.

I don't know anything about him other than that except I was told he is a physicist, as Chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character to meet and to know—being somewhat of a beatnik. But, at least, he seems to, when he99 works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he must have money because they—Ragnar and Chris—honeymooned on a yacht that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked—which is a period of 2 years.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—he uses George De Mohrenschildt's original name of Von Mohrenschildt. He is a professor at an ivy league university—Cambridge, I think.

Mr. Jenner. Well, Cambridge would be Harvard. What about Princeton? What about Dartmouth? Columbia? Brown? Cornell?

Mr. Taylor. I never met him. I believe I talked to him on the telephone. He passed through Dallas and called. I just talked to him briefly on the telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Now, give me your impression of De Mohrenschildt. First, describe him. What kind of personality is he?

Mr. Taylor. Uh—he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods—anywhere from extreme friendliness to downright dislike—just like turning on and off a light.

Mr. Jenner. What about his physical characteristics? Large, small, handsome, or otherwise?

Mr. Taylor. He's a large man, in height he's only about 6'2" but he's a very powerfully built man, like a boxer.

Mr. Taylor. He is athletic. And he has a very big chest, which makes him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Taylor, do you know Mr. Liebeler? Mr. Liebeler is a member of the staff.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Give me a little more about the personality of George De Mohrenschildt's—and I think I'm about ready to let you go home.

Mr. Taylor. I would say that he has an inflammable personality. And he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; I would say that they lead a somewhat Bohemian life. The furnishings in their home somewhat show this.

Mr. Taylor. Yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things like this, that—for a man of his age, which is about 50 to 52—is a little unusual.

He does not often work. In fact, during the times that I was married to his daughter, I have not known of him to hold any kind of a position for which he received monetary remuneration. So, as a result, why, he could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. And this could be in 32° weather in the bathing shorts I mentioned—only.

Mr. Taylor. Any time during the week. They have always owned convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with the top down. They are very active, outdoor sort of people.

Mr. Jenner. Is she unconventional at times in her attire in the respects you have indicated in regards to him?

100 Mr. Taylor. Uh—well, that's—uh—I have heard them say everything—from saying that he was a Republican and she expressed democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to Russia and live—so, it's all colors of the spectrum. Anything that—again, so much of what they do is what fits the moment. Whatever fits their designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it.

Mr. Taylor. Oh, I'm sorry. That was Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter that I married on that date. We married on September 28, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. Have you had any correspondence from either of the De Mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the assassination of President Kennedy or to either of the Oswalds?

Mr. Taylor. I have not personally received any correspondence at all from them. My parents have received correspondence from them—none of which mentioned—I take that back—in one case, the assassination was mentioned in passing; and the Oswalds were not mentioned in specifics.

Mr. Jenner. And does that acquaintance go back prior to your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right. Now, we have had some discussions off the record. I will ask you first—is there anything you would like to add that occurs to you that you think might be helpful—as an occurrence having taken place or even general thoughts on your part—to the Commission in this important investigation it has undertaken?

Mr. Taylor. Well, the only thing that occurred to me was that—uh—and I guess it was from the beginning—that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Taylor. I base that on—uh—their desire, first of all, to—uh—return to Russia at one time and live there; uh—they have traveled together behind the Iron Curtain; uh—they took a trip to Mexico, through Mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from Laredo, Tex., to the tip of South America——

Mr. Taylor. Beyond—to the tip of South America—the southern tip of South America.

Mr. Taylor. Uh—and this they claim to have done, yet further information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the portion of South America where the Cuban refugees were being trained to invade Cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area while all this training was going on. And, so, from that—from these observations——

Mr. Jenner. Do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that invasion preparation?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; because where—they went to Guatemala where the invasion troops were being trained, or they were in Guatemala when they were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and—unbeknowing to anyone—and when these acquaintances returned——

Mr. Jenner. This was the trip during the time you were married to their daughter?

Mr. Jenner. You are basing this information on communications from them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after they returned?

Mr. Taylor. Yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them being in Guatemala, in conversations with Nancy Tilton.

Mr. Taylor. Nancy Tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, Alex, after she was born. Her mother never took her from the hospital. This Mrs. Tilton did. And on a visit to Mrs. Tilton's home, the people——

Mr. Taylor. In Tubac, Ariz. Uh—Mrs. Tilton remarked that some friends of hers, the people in question in Guatemala, had found them living in their home——

Mr. Taylor. Yes, living in their home in Guatemala and had forcefully evicted them from it.

Mr. Jenner. That the Tiltons had forcefully evicted the De Mohrenschildts from the Tilton home in Guatemala?

Mr. Taylor. No; it isn't the Tiltons' home in Guatemala. It was a friend of the Tiltons. I don't remember their names.

Mr. Jenner. Well, who was evicted? The De Mohrenschildts or the people who owned the house?

Mr. Taylor. The De Mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who owned it returned.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you gather from that that they had not had advance permission to occupy that home?

Mr. Taylor. That's right. They had not had advance permission and had occupied it for a period of about 3 weeks—as best the people who evicted them could determine from what was eaten and——

Mr. Jenner. You are basing your comment with respect to the De Mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement by anyone else with Oswald which you have already stated and you are stating the reasons why. And you have related the walking trip down through Mexico to the tip of South America. This was at the time of the training of Cuban refugees for a possible invasion of Cuba. And it was during the period of time in which you were married to the De Mohrenschildts' daughter?

Mr. Jenner. And now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. What was that?

Mr. Taylor. I summed it up by saying that—uh—there was an indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or information-gathering might be valuable to Communist interests. They had expressed a desire to live in a Communist country; and that they had traveled extensively through Communist countries.

Mr. Taylor. Poland and Hungary—no; I'm sorry. Poland and Czechoslovakia. And Mr. De Mohrenschildt told me one time that he had met Marshal Tito.

Mr. Jenner. And did they make any trips to Europe during the period that you were married to their daughter?

Mr. Taylor. No; they did not. These trips were prior to our marriage. However, I had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the family album—photographs of them in various Communist countries.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Where does your former wife, Alexandra, now live—if you know?

Mr. Taylor. To my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since they married. My last communication from the De Mohrenschildts said that they were on their way to Europe and I don't know anything other than that.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Is there anything in addition to what you have already said that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission—that would open avenues for further investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful?

Mr. Jenner. We have been off the record once or twice, Mr. Taylor. Is there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is pertinent, that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that was stated in your off the record statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said on the record?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you have the right to read this deposition if you wish. It will be ready sometime next week. You may communicate with me or Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and come in and read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire and prefer to sign it. You have all of those rights. You also have the right to waive that if you see fit.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You call, I would suggest—this is a rather long deposition—about Wednesday of next week.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It's much longer that I had anticipated—but you were very helpful and thanks for coming here despite the inconvenience.

TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

The testimony of Ilya A. Mamantov was taken at 10 a.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jenner. Before I examine you, Mr. Mamantov, you are appearing voluntarily at our request?

Mr. Jenner. You understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if you wish counsel?

Mr. Jenner. And you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to waive the signing of your deposition.

103 Mr. Mamantov. It doesn't matter—what the proper procedure is—I would like to read those—it's always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. If you want me to sign, I'll sign. If you don't, all right.

Mr. Jenner. On the record. If he wishes—it will be Thursday morning probably—we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would that be convenient for you?

Mr. Jenner. If you will come up to this office then, Thursday morning, then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish.

Mr. Mamantov. My name as you used my name was misspelled—I don't know if you want that—it was misspelled on my letter sent me.

Mr. Jenner. When I examine you I will have you spell your name. Go ahead and spell it for us now.

Mr. Mamantov. It's M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not "en" as you have it.

Mr. Jenner. And how do you pronounce that full name? I-l-y-e [phonetic spelling], or I-l-a [phonetic spelling]?

Mr. Mamantov. I-l-y-a [spelling], A. M-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and the address has been changed in the meantime too—to 2444 Fairway Circle, Richardson, Tex., Zip No. 75080, if it is important.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, the Commission desires to inquire of you because of your acquaintance with the De Mohrenschildts, and your work with the Dallas City Police on November 22 and 23.

Mr. Jenner. The 22d only, and you translated for Marina Oswald in that connection?

Mr. Jenner. Your acquaintance with the Russian emigre group in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and especially your acquaintance with Marina to the extent you had one. You have given your full name and your full address. What is your business, profession, or occupation?

Mr. Mamantov. It covers 1951, the summer of 1951 until the fall of 1955, when I took my present job.

Mr. Jenner. Let's take one step back—by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto?

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you at104 least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling?

Mr. Mamantov. Right, because I just came from Europe as a displaced person and I didn't speak English enough.

Mr. Jenner. All right, I got back to where I was going to go faster than I thought.

Mr. Mamantov. I'll put it this way—you want it in details—my life—approximately at that time?

Mr. Jenner. Not in great detail, but start out this way—I am a native of such and such country—and just tell us about yourself.

Mr. Mamantov. All right. I am a native of Russia. When I was 7 my parents came to Latvia.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, and there I was raised and educated and I received my geological education and training. In 1945, excuse me, 1944, we left for Germany with the retreating German Army and I went to South Germany, stayed until the American Army moved in Peissenberg, P-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], Germany and in August of that year, excuse me, of 1945, we went to a DP camp.

Mr. Mamantov. Displaced persons camp near Guenzburg, G-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g [spelling], Germany.

Mr. Mamantov. And her husband was arrested by the Communist in 1941 and we haven't heard of him since that time.

Mr. Jenner. You say "arrested by the Communist" do you make a distinction when you use the word description "Communist" as something different from the Russians?

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. As you know, Communists are in Latvia, Communists are in Russia, and Communists are in Germany, and nothing to do with the nation. I am using this as an occupational force—I'll put it this way.

Mr. Mamantov. In Riga, R-i-g-a [spelling], Latvia, which is the capital of Latvia, and the name of the university was the University of Latvia.

Mr. Mamantov. That's where I got my graduate school. My degree is approximately equivalent to a local Ph. D—it's actually between master's and Ph. D.

Mr. Mamantov. No; my wife still was in Roswell, N. Mex., at that time and she moved to Dallas immediately after the Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. Mamantov. Right. You see, we received our citizenship in November of 1955 at Roswell, N. Mex.

Mr. Mamantov. No; this was the field party. The office is located here in Dallas and we traveled—at the start of 1951—Post, Tex.; Brownfield, Tex.; Lubbock, Tex.; Hobbs, N. Mex.; Odessa, Tex.; Roswell, N. Mex., and I left——

Mr. Mamantov. Still employed by the seising crew which was in Magee, Miss. From there we moved to Palacious, Tex. From there to Coalgate, Okla.; from Coalgate, Okla., to Seminole, Tex. My wife quit the company at that time and went to Roswell to join the family.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, but she worked as a geologist—as geological computer for that particular company.

Mr. Mamantov. No; she didn't graduate. The Communists moved in and our law didn't exist at that time, as well you know.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, and this gentleman is Jim Liebeler. We are members of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Assassination Commission, and under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of Mr. Mamantov.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, the Secret Service called me on Friday and on Saturday I received your letter, which was sent to my old address.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that might not be technically 3-days' notice. You are entitled under the rules of procedure to the 3-days' notice of the taking of your deposition.

Mr. Jenner. You are entitled to waive that full 3 days if you desire, and do you agree to waive it?

Mr. Mamantov. No; we got to Seminole—one more place I went from there. No; two more places—I went from Seminole to Snyder, Tex., and from Snyder, Tex., I went for 3 weeks to Forest, Miss., and at that time I quit the company and got my job with Sun Oil Co. here in Dallas.

Mr. Mamantov. Right; and purchased our home at 6911 East Mockingbird in October, the 1st of October 1955.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what is your facility in the command of the Russian language, with particular reference to—did you or have you done any teaching of the language?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; I am teaching since 1960 here in the Dallas area. I taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in 1960–1961. And, I taught in the Austin College in Sherman from—it was the fall of, yes, it was fall of 1961 and 1962. No—1962 and 1963. Now, I am teaching at SMU or Dallas College, to be specific, of SMU.

106 Mr. Mamantov. Yes, sir; for the American Geophysical Union, quite extensively in 1959, 1960, and 1961, and I think—yes—1961 I finished.

Mr. Jenner. And have you also done any interpreting or translating for any law enforcement agencies?

Mr. Mamantov. Let me think a little—no, I don't remember. I have translated minor papers, you see, like Soviet Union's marriage certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with divorces, and I might be of a help to a group of Latvians, people here in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the first time for the police department.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I'll get to that. Have you ever been called upon by either any agency of the Government of the United States or of the State of Texas or the City of Dallas to do any interpreting or translating?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, I was called by the police force for the City of Dallas around 5 o'clock, November 22.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; I was called by Lt. Lumpkin. I think he's Lieutenant—they call him Chief.

Mr. Mamantov. Excuse me, I was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of Lumpkin—is it important?

Mr. Mamantov. All right. I was called by Mr. Jack Chrichton, C-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)—I don't know how to spell his name right now, but I guess it is that, but I can find out in a day or two.

Mr. Mamantov. He is a petroleum independent operator, and if I'm not mistaken, he is connected with the Army Reserve, Intelligence Service. And, he asked me if I would translate for the police department and then immediately Mr. Lumpkin called me.

Mr. Jenner. This, then, was your first contact with or connection with this tragedy?

Mr. Mamantov. Right. However, I called FBI about half an hour before the police called me. You see, I was in the dentist's office when I heard Lee Oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, I felt it is my duty to notify the FBI that I know of him and knew fairly well his background here in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. I'll get into that background in a little while, Mr. Mamantov. You did go, then, to the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. Mamantov. To pick me up—it was quite disturbing because there was sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed.

Mr. Jenner. That's correct. And you were escorted into the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. Mamantov. He took me into a room filled up with the detectives—before we entered that room, I had to pass through the hallway filled up with the newspaper and TV and people.

Mr. Mamantov. When I got into the room I saw Marina, I saw Mrs. Paine, whom I knew, who has been once in our house, and I have numerous telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning Russian.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "our house," that's the house in which you, your wife and Mrs. Gravitis reside?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct. She resides with us since 1943—we never were separated.

Mr. Mamantov. Dorothy, and I saw Mrs. Paine and I saw next to her a young woman with a young baby whom I assumed to be Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen Marina Oswald in your life prior to that moment? Knowingly?

Mr. Jenner. No; this is prior—up to that moment, you had had no contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her?

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; but Marina and my mother-in-law had telephone conversations from my home, so I knew of her quite a bit through Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Gravitis, but I never had seen her in person, but I never had talked to her before, so from that room I was taken into another small room, and after a while Mrs. Paine and Marina was brought in and she also had a baby.

Mr. Mamantov. There was a young detective, I forgot his name. Then, there was another tall detective who actually questioned Marina and for whom I interpreted.

Mr. Mamantov. Well, there was another person, the agent of the FBI, who was taking notes and sitting across at the desk.

Mr. Mamantov. It was "H", but I don't remember; but it was, either this young fellow that was the detective was Hosty, or FBI, but it started with "H".

Mr. Mamantov. Right; and I talked to him after that a few minutes, he will recognize me and I recognize him when we get together.

Mr. Jenner. You seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of recall; would you start now, and I will try not to interrupt you, and relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the responses—the questioning of Marina and the responses she gave?

Mr. Mamantov. All right. The problem is, I never tried to memorize this because—I mean—this was pure translation.

Mr. Mamantov. I was quite excited and I didn't feel like I should try to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at Mrs. Paine's residence in Irving——

Mr. Jenner. What did she say? Did she respond in the affirmative, is what I was getting at?

Mr. Jenner. Do the best you can, and I'll try not to interrupt you, but I'll have to, I'm sure, at times.

Mr. Mamantov. I don't remember the questions, but I would remember approximately what she was asked.

Mr. Mamantov. All right. She was asked if she lived with Mrs. Paine around that particular day and if she was that morning in Mrs. Paine's home. She answered positively then.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what time was this—5:30 or 6 o'clock.

Mr. Mamantov. I would say it's 5:30, because going to the police station I met my wife coming from work, which should be 5:30 or 6 o'clock, I would say. Then, she was asked if Oswald spent that night in Mrs. Paine's home at that time, that night from 21 to 22 of November.

Mr. Mamantov. She affirmed that. Then, how did he get up? She said he had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. They asked her also if usually she prepared breakfast for him, and if I remember right, she said usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to eat breakfast. Now——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Was she questioned, or did she say anything about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her?

Mr. Mamantov. No; as far as I remember he didn't return. I mean, I don't think the question was asked to her. Or, it is in my mind that he didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Mamantov, may I say this—I don't want any of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall definitely.

Mr. Jenner. There are bits of information that we have of things we would like to find out. Do you have a definite recollection that the subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or are you refreshing your memory, is what I am getting at? If you have no recollection, I would prefer you say so.

Mr. Mamantov. No; I'll put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.

Mr. Jenner. Don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your answers—do I gather correctly that what you are saying is that she stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen?

Mr. Jenner. That morning—that she did go out to the kitchen that morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast?

Mr. Mamantov. No; I'll put it this way. She apparently slept a little bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. From this I made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him and she ate.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you recall that she said that?

Mr. Mamantov. I understood—here's my problem—either I recall or I recall future instances from translating her life history.

Mr. Jenner. It is important, Mr. Mamantov, for you to recall and to exclude from your mind—it is very difficult I appreciate—and to exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after November 22d.

Mr. Jenner. What I am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do you understand?

Mr. Mamantov. I understand. As far as I know, she said that he didn't return backward—I mean—come back to her—she didn't get up at the time he was leaving. After a while she got up.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the translating you——

Mr. Jenner. At the city police station, that she said was that he left the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on.

Mr. Mamantov. She found that the coffee wasn't—I mean, or, she thought he didn't eat.

Mr. Mamantov. Then, I also remember her saying, but I don't remember how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check her belongings which were stored in the garage, Mrs. Paine's garage, and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit different position than she remember it before.

Mr. Mamantov. That's what I'm saying—I'll come to it. Then she was asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention particularly to the blanket. She said he kept his gun in that blanket. Now, she also said—she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it looked, she said, "Probably—yes," she has seen not the whole gun but she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this moment the gun was brought in.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to the kitchen, noticed that Oswald had not prepared any breakfast——

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, or she was led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "I went." I assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went to the garage.

Mr. Mamantov. You see, Mrs. Paine also gave a statement later on after Marina finished.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, and did she respond on that subject?

Mr. Mamantov. To the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the day. Do you recall that the question—is it because of the questioning, or she voluntarily stated——

Mr. Jenner. Because of the questioning, that after she was in the kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? Just relax and think about it.

Mr. Mamantov. I'm afraid I wouldn't remember in such extent, if she went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when police was at Mrs. Paine's home, and I imagine those points are very important to you, and I don't remember at the moment, I mean, to the exact time.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; they are important—you see, your responses when you first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage.

Mr. Mamantov. No; I'm afraid I cannot state positively whether she went during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen—I do not know.

Mr. Jenner. Or that she went out to the garage at any time before the police arrived, which was in midafternoon?

Mr. Mamantov. That, I don't remember. I do remember that she was asked about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen before, about 2 weeks. I remember her mentioning about 2 weeks to the questioning.

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. After that the question was asked what was in this blanket. She said it was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would bring the gun from the Soviet Union, and also was asked the question if she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at this moment the gun was brought in. Let me try to remember a little bit?

Mr. Jenner. In her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in the garage prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. Mamantov. This question was asked her. And, she gave a little bit evasive answer.

Mr. Jenner. You tell us what she said rather than you giving your opinion as to whether it was evasive.

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, if I remember right, she said she didn't know if it were there.

111 Mr. Mamantov. That it was there on that particular morning; however, she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if I remember right, that Lee took with him the gun and she was also asked——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and you translated it?

Mr. Jenner. That she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the blanket in the garage?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the blanket in the garage prior to November 22?

Mr. Jenner. Did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she had discovered it prior to November 22?

Mr. Mamantov. She saw the stock of the gun, which was dark brown—black, she said.

Mr. Jenner. These were responses of hers before the weapon was brought in the room?

Mr. Jenner. I want to stick to that period, before the weapon was actually brought into the room, and state what she said.

Mr. Mamantov. They asked her also at that time when did he purchase the gun and such as where. If I remember right, she said she didn't know, she stated also that he had had a gun in the Soviet Union. They asked her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. She said, "Yes, it was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, and at that time the gun was brought in.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of November 22, to examine the blanket?

Mr. Mamantov. No; here, I cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and this—I don't remember—here is my time lapse—whenever she saw it.

Mr. Jenner. But whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything?

Mr. Mamantov. The blanket was, I'll put it this way, different position as she has seen in the past.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in a different position, in a different place in the garage?

Mr. Mamantov. No; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't anything in it.

Mr. Mamantov. I don't remember, but that attracted her attention. This I remember very well. She stated it attracted her attention—as she had seen before, so much I remember.

Mr. Jenner. Her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had seen it?

Mr. Mamantov. Evidently—if somebody, for instance, if you see a package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape.

Mr. Jenner. Did she describe the shape and form and condition of the package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on November 22, what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it looked like on the occasion of November 22 when she saw it again?

Mr. Mamantov. If I remember right, going back, she had seen the package of112 elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and knowing it was Lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she left it in same shape she had found it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of the package?

Mr. Mamantov. Just the stock end and she covered immediately and back so as a result, she—she didn't pull out all—she didn't open the package.

Mr. Jenner. Did they question her as to where the package was in the garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it before November 22 and the position it was located in in the garage when she saw it on November 22?

Mr. Mamantov. The question was asked and she answered, it was with her belongings which she couldn't bring into Mrs. Paine's home, and if I remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different shape or in a different condition. What it was, I don't know. It was in the garage in one of the corners.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when she saw it on the 22d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain what she discovered was a rifle?

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping of that character?

Mr. Jenner. At any time during the questioning was the blanket package brought into the room?

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said when she was asked about her entry into the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was with her when she did that?

Mr. Jenner. Was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of Mrs. Paine and the police?

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall that she did testify or relate as to the incident you now have in mind that Mrs. Paine was present and the police were present?

Mr. Jenner. And is that the only occasion she was examined about, that is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of the police?

Mr. Jenner. It might have been that she testified to having gone to the garage on two occasions that day.

Mr. Mamantov. Sir, I don't remember for sure. I rather wouldn't like, as you say, to interpret—I would be very happy to relate everything I know. If you don't remember, you don't.

Mr. Jenner. May I emphasize over and over again, Mr. Mamantov, that you don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your mind took place around 6 o'clock on the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. So, let me impel you from any thought I have a desire for you to testify one way or the other.

Mr. Jenner. Because I don't—all I want you to do is to tell, as best you can, your recollection of what took place.

Mr. Jenner. I do want to ask you this—you don't want to exclude by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior to the time the police arrived.

Mr. Jenner. You just don't have enough recollection at the moment to testify one way or the other on that?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I noticed that you did say that Marina related the fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition?

Mr. Mamantov. No; I didn't say so. I said, "Elongated package—she saw an elongated package," but I don't recall the size of the package, the size of the package she testified it was.

Mr. Jenner. I think you did testify earlier that Marina remarked that she had seen the gun in sections?

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, and I related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and she saw the stock of the gun so much—that I said—there—so much—you asked me.

Mr. Jenner. It's important, Miss Oliver, let's go back just so we will be certain of it and see if we can find it.

(At this point at the request of Counsel Jenner the reporter referred to previous testimony of the Witness Mamantov and reread the following:

("No, put it this way. I remember conversations somewhere along the line that he didn't return to her room. I remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, I don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.")

Mr. Jenner. When the question was put to her as to why she went to the garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, what did she say?

Mr. Mamantov. That, I don't remember. That is again coming to the point—I don't remember what time she saw—either she saw by herself or she saw during the time when police arrived.

Mr. Jenner. But, in either event, whether she went there on her own prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the package, if she said anything?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes. When police arrived they asked her specific questions about particular blanket.

Mr. Mamantov. If the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation to the shape she saw last time. She said, "No, it has different shape."

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the Paine's—what was the sequence, as you recall?

114 Mr. Mamantov. She was asked if she knew that the gun was at the premises of Mrs. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. The questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct. She was asked whether this gun—when at the Paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she said she hadn't seen gun since the gun—she saw last time—and this particular day when gun wasn't there. No; she never stated, and I don't think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular morning. That, I don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun was with her belongings.

Mr. Jenner. And your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to her?

Mr. Jenner. Your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was not brought into the room?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, the only physical item was brought in, was the gun itself, sir.

Mr. Jenner. And did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what I mean by a sling?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; I know what you mean, but I don't remember right now. I think it did, but I wouldn't be for sure—I wouldn't be sure of the statement.

Now, I don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before—where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Mamantov. Her response was that it is possible that this is the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. Now, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union—I can say so much for sure and that's where I didn't like this.

Mr. Jenner. No; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no person had a gun in the Soviet Union—that was an observation on your part, not what she said.

Mr. Mamantov. No, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be—not to put it into the record, but I think it is very important when she went back—when she said that the gun was brought in from the Soviet Union.

Mr. Mamantov. It might have been—so, she didn't know. The question was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she said, "I don't know. He had always guns. He always played with guns even in the Soviet Union. He had the gun and I don't know which gun was this." And she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun—she was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled the gun which he had in the Soviet Union. She said, to her all guns are dark and black and that's all—so much she said about it.

Mr. Jenner. Before we get to the gun itself, I would like to ask you some more questions.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your answers that she either said or implied that when they were in Fort Worth, when they were in New Orleans, that he had the gun that she had in mind?

115 Mr. Mamantov. She made statement this way: She said he always had guns, he always was interested in guns—this statement she made.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination of the package and what she found—would you state as chronologically as you can? Did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part—"I went into the garage, I looked for the blanket package, I saw the blanket package, I walked over to the blanket package, I stepped on it, or I lifted it up, or I opened it up"—was she questioned that closely?

Mr. Jenner. Was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon in the blanket package?

Mr. Jenner. Is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she was not examined on that subject?

Mr. Jenner. At any time during this questioning was she asked whether she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon she saw with him in his possession—unwrapped?

Mr. Jenner. Was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle—whether it was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise?

Mr. Jenner. Well, was she asked whether he hunted in Russia when he was in Russia?

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, yes. She made statement that he also was hunting in Russia and supposedly was hunting here.

Mr. Jenner. She did say that her impression was that he hunted here in the United States?

Mr. Mamantov. I'll put it this way—she said he was using his guns for hunting. She didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used to hunt in Russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here.

Mr. Mamantov. No—the question was asked if he hunted here or not and reply to why did he have the gun—because she said he had hunted in Russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun.

Mr. Jenner. Was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the United States?

Mr. Jenner. Was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their home in New Orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in Fort Worth, sighting it and pulling the trigger—dry sighting; do you know what dry sighting is?

Mr. Jenner. Was she asked in your presence whether there was an incident in which there was an attempt on the life of General Walker?

Mr. Jenner. In other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the translating116 or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the United States?

Mr. Mamantov. No, not specifically, but this rifle—I'll put it this way—about her seeing him with a weapon.

Mr. Jenner. All right, now, have you told us everything you can recall about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle was brought into the room? Is there anything else—don't be concerned about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said on this occasion is relevant to us.

Mr. Mamantov. I understand and I am trying to recollect. No, I remember—I think I said everything I could remember.

Mr. Jenner. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when the gun was brought into the room?

Mr. Jenner. Eventually—that is, at the conclusion of the examination he summarized his notes in her presence?

Mr. Mamantov. No, he read word by word, I translated back. He didn't write in shorthand, but he wrote it, I remember very well—Mrs. Paine tried to correct his English and, of course, minor mistakes. I probably wouldn't write the same way—you don't expect every policeman to write the same English, and which the question was whether "I" or "me"—that's the mistake it was.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when that summary was given by the officer in the presence of Marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance correct?

Mr. Jenner. Did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to Marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated?

Mr. Mamantov. No, they read back to her, I translated back into Russian and she agreed. Only, there was Mrs. Paine—Mrs. Paine made a remark about the grammar.

Mr. Mamantov. Captain Fritz brought it in and was holding it in his two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around—in that position (indicating).

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to examine. She was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in the past in that blanket. She said, "I don't know. All guns to me are the same, are a dark brown or black."

He asked her again—"This," which was to me very dark or black colored. He said, "Is this what you see?" She said, "No, I don't know. I saw the gun—I saw a gun;" she said again, "All guns are the same to me." Then they asked her about a sight on the gun.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; a telescope—she said, "No; I never have seen gun like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say to you—is this a conclusion on your part that she referred back to the Soviet Union?

Mr. Jenner. It isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, so you can go ahead.

Mr. Mamantov. No, she said the gun which he had in the Soviet Union, she didn't know how to say—she said, "This thing."

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever it was he had in the Soviet Union—her recollection was it did not have a telescopic sight on it?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct. She was asked if she had seen this part of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket—this she said again—she said, "No; I have only seen one part of the gun, which was the end of the gun"—which part they asked her—I think I am calling it——

Mr. Mamantov. She pointed to the stock—correct—and then she was asked about the gun again and she said, "Dark brown-black."

Mr. Mamantov. Still referring to the stock, and then they asked her for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his possession. She insisted that to her all guns are the same and she couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the past.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, it is your recollection that they questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she had seen, and her responses consistently were—they were, no matter how close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket?

Mr. Jenner. And her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all she thought, to fairly summarize?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct. They asked her again, "Is this the color you saw?" She said "Yes—yes, it reminds me of the same color." They particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the gun and hasn't seen the whole gun.

Mr. Mamantov. And they asked her, I think they came back again and asked her if she has seen him carrying something.

Mr. Mamantov. Carrying something, and she said, "No," she didn't see him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something.

Mr. Jenner. You mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left that morning he was carrying anything?

Mr. Mamantov. She didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, or whatever he was taking—means of transportation.

Mr. Jenner. She didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement?

Mr. Jenner. Did they question her as to the details of his coming to Irving, Tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on Thursday night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a Friday, did they go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point to point so that they could exhaust the movements of Lee Oswald that previous evening?

Mr. Mamantov. No; if I remember right, they didn't question her to the extent of his arrival—well, I don't remember.

118 Mr. Jenner. They concentrated on his presence the following morning and what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left?

Mr. Mamantov. To me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having the gun, and "this is the gun he used."

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous evening?

Mr. Jenner. Oh, any questions as to why he came home on Thursday rather than on Friday as usual?

Mr. Jenner. Did they go into any questions with respect to the acquaintances of the Oswalds with people here in Dallas or in Irving or in Fort Worth or in New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. Over what period of time did this examination take place? What was its duration?

Mr. Mamantov. Roughly, I would say about 2½ to 3 hours. You see, Mrs. Paine also testified, she was present so they took two statements—from both of them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you interpret from English into Russian the statements made by Mrs. Paine that is, did you translate Mrs. Paine's statement, as she made it and the questions put to Mrs. Paine, for the benefit of Marina, so that she would understand the questions to Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Paine's responses?

Mr. Jenner. And you can see why that is important to me, as to whether Marina would take exception to anything Mrs. Paine said?

Mr. Mamantov. Right. Now, we were waiting about 2½ or 3 hours altogether for the typist to type that.

Mr. Jenner. It was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the statement, the reading of the statement to Marina and Mrs. Paine, and then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then sign them.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, yes, she did. Mrs. Paine spoke in Russian to Marina—yes, she did.

Mr. Jenner. Any statements made by Mrs. Paine in Russian to Marina, were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have testified?

Mr. Mamantov. No; I don't think so. I don't remember—personal conversation more or less about the child who was present.

Mr. Jenner. The conversations between Mrs. Paine and Marina in Russian, were they conversations related to personal matters—the children?

Mr. Mamantov. The children; and only on one occasion I remember was to her protection—Marina's protection.

119 Mr. Mamantov. Well, then, she asked—are they going to send her back to the Soviet Union, and Mrs. Paine said, "I don't know," and then she looked at me and I said, "I don't know either. If you are innocent, then you will be innocent." I couldn't say one way or the other, and I didn't want to go into conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say to Marina that, "If you are innocent—then you are innocent"—did you mean to imply by that that she would not be deported in that event?

Mr. Mamantov. Right; and then I expressed hope that nothing would happen to her.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the best of your recollection that was said?

Mr. Jenner. First, in relation to Marina—during the course of that 3-hour meeting or session at the Dallas City Police Station.

Mr. Jenner. In an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything asked her about her relations with her husband, Lee Oswald, whether they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any problems in that connection?

Mr. Jenner. You have an especial command of the Russian language, you teach Russian?

Mr. Jenner. Would you please state for the record the extent of Mrs. Paine's command of the Russian language?

Mr. Mamantov. Say for—I can give only comparison for American person and for Russian person. I say for an American person—fair to good for knowledge of the language, for command of language—very poor.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the only occasion when you interpreted or translated for Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Marina at any time after this incident, this questioning?

Mr. Mamantov. Either way—yes, sir—I once on one Saturday, my mother-in-law and I went to Sears to Ross Avenue store.

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, no—the next day after Martin, I guess, came into the picture.

Mr. Mamantov. My mother-in-law went into the main entrance and I opened the door, and if I remember right, I was holding the door for somebody else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. I closed the door and started to walk off and catch up and I heard somebody calling, like in my conscious, calling, "Mr. Mamantov," in Russian and in a very little whisper, and I was walking a couple of steps further and I heard it again, "Mr. Mamantov," again in Russian and I turned around and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young men around, so in my mind it occurred—this is Marina, but I was so surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. Her hair became dark and I called out "Netasha," and she called me in Russian and said, "No, this is Marina." So, I introduced myself immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying I was translating for her at the police station and my name is so and so.

120 In the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for me and I told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, I said, "How are you doing?" She said, "Now is becoming quieter. I am very tired."

That is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement of Sears store and when we finished our business, we were going up again—excuse me—by myself. Mother-in-law was waiting for me somewhere—I had to go and check on my credit, so after going into the Sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group again, and I tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the escalator, and I stepped on and I told to one, who later I found out was Martin, and I didn't know at that time who was Martin, and I told him, I said, "If she needs help in translating the language, please call on me." And so and so, and that's the time I saw her.

Mr. Mamantov. I don't remember exactly, but let me go back—are you through with Mrs. Paine and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. I'm through with her only if you have told us everything about this particular occasion.

Mr. Mamantov. One occasion they asked Mrs. Paine, and who was also present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a gun.

Mr. Mamantov. And she said, "No, she didn't." Why didn't she know that Marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "Yes, I knew," and "How didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "Because I didn't go through her belongings. I mean, it isn't my business to check on what she had there." Now, they asked her also, knowing that she is a—what is the religious denomination in Pennsylvania?

Mr. Mamantov. Quaker. Would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that you are Quaker? She said again, "It belongs to her, and it isn't for me to say," and this is the extent I remember statements on Mrs. Paine's part.

Mr. Jenner. She wasn't asked either about what had occurred the previous evening; is that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. I don't remember—this is overlapping two occasions—whether that was that evening, if you will show me the statement that was written, I will elaborate in details on it.

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. Are you acquainted with a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Jenner. And will you describe George De Mohrenschildt as to his physical characteristics first?

Mr. Mamantov. A tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud in society, likes to tell one company jokes—one sex jokes.

Mr. Mamantov. Brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when I met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that.

Mr. Mamantov. Sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a—a divorce was pending.

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; I am acquainted of his girl friend of that general area, who is now his wife.

Mr. Mamantov. Zhana, I think, probably in English would be Jane, and to spell Zhana in English translation is Z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. This was the way she was called in the Russian society.

Mr. Mamantov. I don't think so, but I don't know for sure. I'll put it this way. She speaks too good Russian to be an American born.

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; I don't think so, because he was educated in Leige, Belgium—well, he finished here—I know for sure if we meet again, I can bring you more details from our geological directories, all this information, and if I remember right, shortly we met him and Zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very small—actually was just a regular residence.

Mr. Jenner. You told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you participated in an effort to organize a church here in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. In which you anticipated people of Russian derivation would be interested?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, and there I saw him and her, I'm talking about Zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. If I remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward the end of the service, which shocked all my family. I mean—just to describe a man this way——

Mr. Mamantov. Right; and every place we met him he was talking to ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person wouldn't do it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, what I am trying to have you do is tell us of your acquaintance with George De Mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to the extent you can—and the part he played in your life. I am getting at the Russian emigre group here in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, as you have described?

122 Mr. Mamantov. No; the first time I met him through Mr. Bouhe, and this was a first acquaintance and just like I said, the only places—it was in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long because of him. We just have some reason—we had a tendency to avoid this person as much as possible.

Mr. Jenner. You acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, because being of the same nationality, I thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know whether Marina or Lee Oswald knew the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. Mamantov. I know that Marina related the conversations to my mother-in-law as "our best friends in Dallas," referring to both of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. Jenner. You are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that Marina said to her, "These were their best friends in Dallas"?

Mr. Jenner. We both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that remark was made to you?

Mr. Mamantov. I mean, it was made in a family—after my conversation between my mother-in-law and Marina.

Mr. Mamantov. No, no; our family haven't seen Marina in our lives. Mother-in-law never have seen Marina—was except at a distance at Sears store, except that time.

Mr. Jenner. Your information is that there never was any direct contact between your mother-in-law and Marina except on the telephone?

Mr. Jenner. And you were not present, in the presence of your mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with Marina?

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; I was at work. You see, she lived—if I can take your time, I can tell you how it happened, if it is important I can. I don't want to take your time.

Mr. Jenner. I want to avoid hearsay, and that's why I am going a little carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay.

Mr. Mamantov. That's what I thought, but the reason she talked was because Marina was at Paine's house and Paine went to San Antonio and asked my mother-in-law to check on Marina because Marina was pregnant at that time—you see the connection?

Mr. Mamantov. No, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. Now, my mother-in-law—I asked Mr. Peterson who called me on Friday if my mother-in-law would be called or is called, I will come with her because she needs a translator.

Mr. Mamantov. If I may bring her with me because everything she knows we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and I translated for her when she was questioned by FBI. She doesn't speak enough English to answer your questions.

Mr. Mamantov. She will understand what you are talking about but—as far as that—she is 75, and an elderly lady and she can be quite nervous by being by herself and so on.

123 Mr. Jenner. All right, I will attempt my best to put her at ease, which I have tried to do with you.

Mr. Mamantov. Oh, I am at ease as much as I can be. I'm trying to be, because the reasons I hesitate to say—"Yes, I remember." I don't remember in some cases, or maybe I remember, like when I translated with Mr. Martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to separate right now without going back and reading the report.

Mr. Jenner. And have you had conversations with the Voshinins with respect to Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. Jenner. During any of those conversations was any reference made to a trip that De Mohrenschildt made or might have made to Mexico City, Mexico?

Mr. Mamantov. I don't remember if it was in 1958 or 1959. I don't know. Mrs. Voshinin can tell you exactly the time.

Mr. Jenner. All right, we intend to interrogate them as well. We will leave it to them.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, but I heard from her, I mean, her statement to us was that De Mohrenschildt went to Mexico and met with the Soviet representatives and Mikoyan——

Mr. Mamantov. Yes—who was visiting at that time in Mexico. This, actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this—this mainly was my opinion of his politics, I mean, I had suspicioned, but this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us your contacts with De Mohrenschildt; do they extend beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to organize the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Mr. Mamantov. He did not—he never was interested in church life, but I met him through that group, and Mr. Bouhe, who are the most active participants in organizing the church.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell us what other Russian emigres of this group in Dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about which you have testified—yourself, Bouhe——

Mr. Mamantov. No; I joined. This was done already by other people. We came in 1955—this already was going for a couple of years.

Mr. Jenner. Who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons interested?

Mr. Mamantov. But she attended, and, of course, she did everything for the sake of her children who are Greek Orthodox, and then Mrs.—oh, gosh, what is her name—Mrs. Zinzade, Z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. Her first name is Helen and his name is, I think, George, but I can look in the telephone book later on.

Mr. Jenner. That's all right. Are all these people generally Russian intellectuals?

124 Mr. Mamantov. Put it this way—all of them have lower educational level than I do, except De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. Jenner. Most of these other people have the qualifications or are interested in what?

Mr. Mamantov. As mine. We are both geologists and might be called miners, and the Voshinins are the same.

Mr. Mamantov. Grigor'ev—this was the benefactor of that church. That's called Grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. Voshinin, Bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. The rest of them were below high-school education, especially like in Mr. Bouhe's case, he is an accountant, and a Latvian—Mrs. Grolle, G-r-o-l-l-e [spelling], and the first name is Emma. Now, who else was there—now, an Estonian couple who are very active—Hartens, H-a-r-t-en-s [spelling], and his first name, I don't remember, but if you need it exactly, we take the telephone book—all of these names are in the telephone book. This group actually was very active in organizing.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; and Mrs. Meller—right, and the closest relationship is between her and Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. Jenner. You mean there's a close relation between Mrs. Meller and Mr. Bouhe, they are close friends.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; closest of all this group because these people actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial supporters. I was a worker for a while, but I didn't contribute money because we just came to Dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, but Mr. Grigor'ev and Mr. Bouhe were the main financial supporters and through them, through all this group, I met Mr. De Mohrenschildt the first time.

Mr. Jenner. Then, I'll ask you this general question—would you please state all you know about George De Mohrenschildt, and you are free, in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as chronologically as you can, and I should say to you that this testimony is privileged. You are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise.

Mr. Mamantov. No; only I know about the man, like I told you, that we were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife.

Mr. Mamantov. Because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, his behavior in the presence of ladies—to us suspicious political trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent I can say of him.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything you said to the FBI when you called them on the 22d of November before you were contacted by the Dallas office?

Mr. Mamantov. I haven't told them anything except I know of the assassin and if I can be of service I would like to relate the knowledge I have.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion as to Lee Oswald with particular reference to his possible political leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough—I don't want to suggest the conversation to you.

Mr. Jenner. In relation to Oswald, whether he was a Communist or what his political leanings were in her opinion?

Mr. Mamantov. Well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, after her conversations with Mrs. Paine, and after hearing through Mrs. Paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and I stated that he is a Communist—we didn't hesitate.

Mr. Jenner. That was based upon the reports to you from your mother-in-law125 as to what Mrs. Paine might have or did say to her and from, I gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone from this country to Russia?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, and not only through Mrs. Paine, because after we found out—many people of Russian descent were somehow acquainted with Lee Oswald and Marina, so we heard later from different sources of him and his political opinions.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do I correctly interpret your testimony that because there is a Russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that they took an interest in Marina and to an extent, Lee Oswald, to expand her acquaintance in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area and make them comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your heart could do so? I don't want to describe it incorrectly—give me your reaction to that.

Mr. Mamantov. My reaction—I never was asked to help them, never was approached by them or people who tried to help them.

Mr. Mamantov. People who tried to help them, I told them on many occasions they shouldn't do it.

Mr. Mamantov. Because, in my opinion, Oswald was a Communist and was sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is strengthened due to the 22d assassination.

Mr. Jenner. And these views and opinions of yours are not based on any direct knowledge on your part of Lee Harvey Oswald, that is, any direct contact during the course of events up to November 22, that is, you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a realization——

Mr. Mamantov. It is a realization of what the people told me of his political viewpoints, their home being in the Soviet Union and supposedly being an undesirable person, but I have again past cases in my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and I am sure you have heard many questions on TV and those questions were asked before.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it, Mr. Mamantov, that you regard yourself, and that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized American.

Mr. Jenner. And you are proud and concerned about your standing in that respect?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, sir; but I'm not a member of the John Birch Society, I am not a member of any organization except my professional and local Republican Party.

Mr. Jenner. At any time prior to November 1963, were you aware of or has there come to your attention any information or statement attributed to Oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or opposition to President John F. Kennedy as an individual, as I say, prior to November 22?

Mr. Jenner. Or any animosity or opposition to John F. Kennedy in his capacity as President of the United States?

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he was opposed to the Government of the United States, without mentioning the President or any other name.

Mr. Jenner. And you have no information on which you personally can rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that Oswald was a Communist?

Mr. Mamantov. It is September or, I mean, late part of September or early126 part of October 1955, when I still was by myself in Dallas. I heard of him being from Estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be a Russian. So I called him up and we met in the restaurant. He came to my house—he came to my room where I rented. I forgot the number—3405, if I remember right, Milton Street, and invited me to eat with him out in the restaurant by name Europa, and there we ate and then somehow we went back, you know, I discovered he is White Russian and I am White Russian and he talked extensively about Mrs. Meller.

Mr. Mamantov. No; she is—she came the same way like Mrs. Ford came from—was brought by Germans into Germany and came to the States.

Mr. Jenner. On the record, now. Are you acquainted with what Lee Oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to his personality? Now, in this question I seek to distinguish from his political beliefs. What kind of person was he—was he quiet, retiring, avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, are you acquainted with his reputation in the community?

Mr. Mamantov. I'll put it this way—the people who wanted to help Marina didn't want to help Oswald because he was holding back—I mean—people tried to start conversations, always he went into political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, did he seek their company? I'm asking now, only reputation, sir.

Mr. Mamantov. Again, I can say only in the houses he has been—for one reason or another he was disliked—I'll put it this way.

Mr. Jenner. They had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, in that community of people—Mr. Mamantov?

Mr. Jenner. It was one of reservation, dislike—that they did not think well of his personality?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try to make friends or he didn't try, was what I heard—he tried to keep Marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her in other Russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation in the Russian community area? I'm not seeking specific instances, but only general reputation, the reaction of the Russian community group toward Lee Harvey Oswald before November 22?

Mr. Jenner. Now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not reputation. May I explain to you that reputation in a community is what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for a while. It is a reaction gained by people in the community from many instances.

Mr. Mamantov. Well—only, I know that he was undesirable—and after people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own houses, he was undesirable to those people.

Mr. Jenner. I think you have said this, but may I ask you—your mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis, has served as a tutor for Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Mamantov. That put her to work with Mrs. Paine. You see, what happened, Mrs. Paine was calling me at the office and asked to teach—and I told her I'm not interested to teach individual students, and I suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for my mother-in-law to teach her Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with the reputation in the Russian community of Marina Oswald, and I'm going to ask you several subdivisions—first, as to her personality.

Mr. Mamantov. From what I heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. My conclusion was that she is very pleasant to be around.

Mr. Jenner. Are you acquainted with her reputation in the Russian community for truth and veracity?

Mr. Jenner. As to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person?

Mr. Mamantov. I don't know—as a community. I do know in our family discussion.

Mr. Mamantov. All right. We didn't accuse her one way or another way, but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the Soviet Union so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, I mean distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable apartment. For this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her on the first-hand information.

Mr. Jenner. Did she have a reputation in the Russian community with respect to whether or not she was a member of the Communist Party? Now, that is a political question.

Mr. Jenner. A reputation, whether she was or was not—what did the Russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law?

Mr. Mamantov. All right—you want the Communist Party of the United States or Communist Party of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Jenner. All right, I'll take both of them—I'll take the Communist Party of the Soviet Union first.

Mr. Mamantov. Everybody knew that she was a member of the Communistic Youth Organization—she didn't even hide this, but I never have heard of somebody implying that she would be a member of the Communist Party of the United States, so as community, I don't think everybody considered her as well tied to the Communist Party as the community did Oswald himself.

Mr. Jenner. What was the general reputation, if any, of Marina in the Russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political views and might actively support those views here in the United States?

Mr. Mamantov. No; I don't know this—I mean—I don't have any opinion. I haven't heard anything—I know that she didn't—she avoided political discussions, I'll put it this way.

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct. He is a bachelor now—he was married—he's divorced.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, but he was a very short time widower—he could be married.

128 Mr. Jenner. Were you and your family aware of Bouhe's efforts, if they were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. And was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable impulse on his part?

Mr. Mamantov. We objected immediately when we heard about this. We objected to every person who took Marina in their own house, in trying to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her husband beat her up.

Mr. Jenner. When there went through the Russian community a report that Lee Oswald had inflicted physical violence on Marina, then the community objected to assistance being afforded the Oswalds?

Mr. Mamantov. I don't know—I think they were especially helping her, after they left Fort Worth, and they had domestic disagreements. Supposedly, she was attacked by him—then the Russian community here in Dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so I opposed this more and more violently.

Mr. Jenner. But you do know that the Russian community, as such, of which Mr. Bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her?

Mr. Mamantov. That's right—assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week.

Mr. Mamantov. That included Mrs. Meller, Fords, and he tried to get this person——

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as I know, she didn't take her into her home.

Mr. Mamantov. As far as I know, I don't think that she did, but I don't think that she did, but Mellers and the Fords took her for a week or for 2 weeks.

Mr. Mamantov. No, sir; you see, we have a secretary, Helene, H-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] Hall, which couldn't be that person.

Mr. Mamantov. One is father's name and one is son's name—that's correct, but his father is not living. Do you know how Russians call your name—if I would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying Mr. so and so, so that's how it appears.

Mr. Jenner. What do they say in case—since my name and my father's name are the same?

Mr. Mamantov. The same—it would be, if you are, for instance, Oswald, it would be Oswald Oswald, each ending implies you are a son of Oswald.

Mr. Mamantov. I was teaching scientific Russian for the Socony Mobil Research Lab in Duncanville, and this student joined. Actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and Mr. Fredricksen was hired by Socony Mobil and joined the class.

Mr. Mamantov. United States Army, was in Germany, and studied Russian in Heidelberg. When he came back, he did graduate work after the Army. He did graduate work at the University of Pennsylvania and had studied Russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the Russian language already.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, Norman Fredricksen, said something to you about Oswald; isn't that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. May I point out, I lost him for a while after I finished that semester, that interrupted Russian, and this was in the spring of 1961, and if I am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them.

Mr. Mamantov. They came—right now, they came to my house. Not before—the first time I met Volkmar Schmidt was when Fredricksen and Volkmar Schmidt came to my home, and I said, "All right, I'll take both of you," and I talked to Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the Russian language, and I found out he didn't know half as much as Fredricksen did and I offered to split and I would continue to teach for the same amount of money Fredricksen, and Volkmar Schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split—I was tutoring Fredricksen and she was teaching Schmidt.

Mr. Jenner. And did there come this occasion when Fredricksen spoke to you about the Oswalds one night?

Mr. Mamantov. That's correct, and this was, I would say, sometime—March, April, might be of 1963, and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the Soviet Union and his wife, and the party was held at Glover's home. I asked him who was present. He said Mrs. Paine was present, of course, both Oswalds were present, and the De Mohrenschildts were present. Of course, Glover was present and I don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation.

Mr. Mamantov. Right, Fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and I said, "Folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. You shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "We just wanted to speak Russian. Mrs. Paine wanted to learn Russian, so we wanted to learn Russian and we just decided to get together and learn Russian." And they didn't speak Russian very much except with Marina. She130 was very shy and didn't talk very much. Most of the evening was spent conversing with Oswald on political questions, because he understood.

Mr. Jenner. In the questioning by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, you mentioned either a Mr. Clark or a Mrs. Clark.

Mr. Mamantov. No, I don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a Russian from France. He married her, I think, during the American occupation of Europe.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes, he is Grigor'er. He has changed his name—it isn't his original name.

Mr. Jenner. Originally, it was Gregoria and he changed it to Gregory, spelled G-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]?

Mr. Mamantov. It could be—he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name.

Mr. Jenner. Is he part Russian—part of the Russian emigre group here in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?

Mr. Mamantov. That's right. You see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. We broke away, but individually, I have been with Gregorys on a few occasions—I have been with the Clarks on few occasions together. I have been with Mr. Bouhe quite frequently in the past—whom else—the same I know them very well personally but we didn't meet—we don't meet as a group any more.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think I would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Presidential investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind?

Mr. Mamantov. I have grave doubts of Marina's exit of the Soviet Union so easily. Of course, I don't have any proof one way or the other—but knowing her life from what I translated, I have more doubt of her arrangement—how the woman could come out so easy from the Soviet Union, because if I liked to get—if I would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the Soviet Union. Besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the Soviet Union, and here, a young lady—20 or 21, just married an American citizen came out and—but I don't want to accuse her—maybe she's completely innocent. I know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the Soviet Union. Maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have had some off the record discussions and I had a short talk with you before we began this deposition.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record?

Mr. Jenner. And, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that I directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made?

131 Mr. Jenner. Well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, I don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while I am still here in Dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, I might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition.

Mr. Jenner. We will close the taking of the deposition of Mr. Mamantov at this point.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS

The testimony of Mrs. Dorothy Gravitis was taken at 1 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Ilya A. Mamantov, interpreter.

Mr. Belin. I am going to ask you both to stand up. Would you raise your right hand. Mrs. Gravitis and Mr. Ilya Mamantov, do you solemnly swear, Mrs. Gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and Mr. Mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Gravitis. First Latvia was independent. It was part of Russia. I was born in Latvian territory, which was at that time Russia.

I was teaching in the Russian territory, and after that in Latvian territory, before Latvia became independent, in Ventspils, the name of the city where I was teaching in Latvia.

Mr. Belin. And remained independent until Russia annexed these three Baltic countries around 1939, or so?

Mrs. Gravitis [through interpreter]. I lived until 1950 in Ventspils, and then I and my husband were evacuated to St. Petersburg or Petrograd at that time. This was in 1915.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Did you stay in either Russia or Latvia from that time on until after—for how long?

Mrs. Gravitis. From 1915 to 1919, in Petrograd. Then in 1919 I and my132 daughter came to Latvia. My husband remained in Petrograd. They didn't let him out.

Mrs. Gravitis. From that time until 1940, I lived and worked as a teacher in Latvia.

Mrs. Gravitis. I taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to junior high, and the Russian language.

Mrs. Gravitis. At that time it became the Soviet Union, part of the Soviet Union, and I lived in the same spot in Latvia.

Mrs. Gravitis. I worked 1 year under the communistic government as a teacher until 1941. Then I was teaching under the German occupation as a teacher until 1943. Then I came to live with Mr. Mamantov in 1943, in Riga, which is the Latvian Capital.

Mr. Belin. Up to 1940, had your husband left Petrograd to move back to Latvia with you?

Mrs. Gravitis. When I came with my daughter to Latvia in 1919, I didn't go back any more, and my husband joined me in February 1923.

Mr. Belin. And he stayed until how long? Did he stay with you in Latvia then, and what happened to him?

Mrs. Gravitis. When he came to Latvia, he was a railroad station manager immediately, or became. And I was a teacher in that town. And we lived there until 1941, until he was arrested.

Mrs. Gravitis. I don't know. Just recently I received a letter from my sister-in-law and she said that he died in Siberia and didn't know when.

Mrs. Gravitis. No; not immediately. We were all the time together, and so we came to Bavaria in October 1944, and stayed in private residences until August 1945, and at that time we went to DP camp near Guenzburg.

Mrs. Gravitis. Four years in—until October of 1949, when we went to Bremerhaven and proceeded to the United States.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go in the United States when you got here? Where have you lived since you have come here?

Mr. Belin. How long did you live in New York, and where have you lived since then?

Mrs. Gravitis. Approximately 1½ or 2. However, we left New York February 28, 1952.

Mrs. Gravitis. Quite a few places, because I don't remember the small towns. Brownfield, Lubbock, and again Brownfield.

Mr. Belin. Since you have come to Texas, have you always lived with your daughter and son-in-law?

Mr. Belin [to Mr. Mamantov]. So in your deposition, I would assume then, Mr. Mamantov, what you said, I would find the places you have lived in Texas?

Mr. Belin. Before coming to Texas, did you do anything in Europe other than teach? Any occupation other than teaching when you were in Europe?

Mrs. Gravitis. In New York I was part-time janitor together with Mr. Mamantov, on Broadway somewhere. Was cleaning the sidewalks and heating the furnace. The people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the sidewalks.

I was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. One was born in Germany. Then after that I sewed and taught Russian, individual students.

Mr. Belin. This is generally what you have done then since coming to Texas, is private tutoring?

Mrs. Gravitis. And sewing. The sewing is the main point, but tutoring on and off, because it is not enough students.

Mr. Belin. When did you first become acquainted with Ruth Paine, Mrs. Michael Paine?

Mrs. Gravitis. I was teaching in Berlitz School here in Dallas. I was also teaching Mrs. Paine. This was 3 years ago, but I don't remember the date when I started. And Mrs. Paine used to take Russian instructions at the Berlitz school, but not from me. I can add this.

Mrs. Gravitis. I don't know for sure. The principal didn't tell me, but I heard somewhere from $5 to $6.

Mr. Belin. A private session at the Berlitz School for one hour, or would this be several people in the class?

Mrs. Gravitis. If I had one student, then I received $2.50. If I had two, then I received $3.

Mrs. Gravitis. Excuse me, I never taught Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was taking lessons before I came to that school.

Mrs. Gravitis. I gave two lessons to Mrs. Paine at the Berlitz School. This way I became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and Mrs. Paine dropped out of school.

134 Mr. Mamantov. After she dropped out, Mrs. Paine called me at the office and asked me to teach, and I refused, but I suggested my mother-in-law would teach her at home.

Mrs. Gravitis. At our home. I mean it is a private lesson for $8 per hour, private lesson.

Mr. Belin. When Mrs. Paine was taking from you those two lessons at the Berlitz School, was there anyone else in the class with her?

Mr. Belin. Had she had any contact with any other Russian teachers, that you know of, in Russia?

Mrs. Gravitis. I was correcting the lessons. I had the letters—Mrs. Paine was writing to this particular teacher. The name of this teacher was Nina, and she was teaching English language, beginning classes. Some were in Russian, somewhere in Russia. I don't remember the name of the city.

Mrs. Gravitis. I asked her, and as far as I remember, she said through a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. I didn't question her any more.

Mr. Belin. In the letters that you translated or corrected did the grammar of Mrs. Paine, contain any political discussion?

Mr. Belin. The letters that Mrs. Paine was sending to the teacher, or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political discussion involved?

Mrs. Gravitis. I started some time during the summer before Mrs. Paine's son was born, who was born in February, the following February, and then she discontinued taking lessons.

Mrs. Gravitis. Approximately 3 years ago. The boy right now is 3 years old, so we say 1961.

Mr. Belin. After the boy was born, did you ever give her any more Russian language lessons?

Mr. Belin. Did you keep up contact with Mrs. Paine after she quit taking lessons?

Mrs. Gravitis. Either April or May. Probably April. Mr. and Mrs. Fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, that there was an American who came recently from the Soviet Union, and his wife is a Russian.

Mrs. Gravitis. I never have talked with her in person, but only on the phone. In May of that particular year, Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, and she asked me would I help Marina because she doesn't know the English language and nobody could help her.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever met, or did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald, her husband?

Mrs. Gravitis. The time when Mrs. Paine went to San Antonio, we had a severe storm, and the next day in the morning, I called Marina at the Paine's home.

Mrs. Gravitis. I think this was in May 1962, or 1963, I forget. This was this past summer, 1963.

Mr. Belin. What did Marina Oswald say? Did she say where she was from and where she lived before she came to this country?

Mrs. Gravitis. I asked her where did she come from, from what city in Russia. The answer was, she came from Leningrad and used to live in Leningrad, on Ligovka Street.

Mrs. Gravitis. She said she lived in Minsk and got married in Minsk, and together with her husband—excuse me it is just the reverse. She lived in Minsk, got married in Minsk, and went to Leningrad and lived on this street in Leningrad.

Mrs. Gravitis. In Minsk she got married. This is White Russia. And then together with her husband arrived at Leningrad. They lived in Leningrad on this street, Ligovka Street.

Mr. Mamantov. Now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers this part in Petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor part of Leningrad—I mean of Petrograd at that time, and somehow brought mother's memory back to Petrograd.

Mr. Belin. Did she say what she did in Leningrad and Minsk after she was married, or what her husband did?

Mrs. Gravitis. I asked her what is her profession. She said she is a pharmacist. And I was surprised at 22 years and pharmacist.

Mrs. Gravitis. No. She said that she didn't have parents. Father and mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of Russia.

Mrs. Gravitis. She said her husband was returning home and she came with her husband. I was very surprised how did the Soviet Union let you out, I asked Marina. She said, "We had a luck."

Mrs. Gravitis. "Husband doesn't have work here." I mean in the United States, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason she lives at Mrs. Paine's home.

136 Mr. Belin. Did she give any other statements about how she happened to get out of Russia other than that she had luck?

Mrs. Gravitis. I didn't ask and I felt she wouldn't tell me. I mean, I didn't ask, and I feel if I asked, Marina wouldn't tell me. Nobody who is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got out. She was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and couldn't get a job. I replied that everybody who wants to work in the United States can get a job. Then she asked me what kind of work you mean. I said any kind of laboring work is possible. Roadwork or any kind of work. And she said that her husband thinks that such type of work is below his dignity.

Mr. Mamantov. She would like to ask you now what do you understand by the word Communist?

Mr. Belin. Well, I would like to have your mother-in-law explain just what she would call it.

Mrs. Gravitis. I had a conversation. I said here in Dallas is a person or a gentleman who helps many Russians who are arriving in this city, or who has helped in the past, Mr. Bouhe. Marina said, "Yes, I know him." She said her husband and Mr. Bouhe don't match in their characters. And I replied that you think probably not match the characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "Yes."

Mr. Mamantov. She said, my husband—and this word, I don't know exactly how to translate it—I mistranslated it for the FBI, this word, and I think in your investigation it is very important.

She replied that her husband is now—I could not translate just the individual word. I have to give you the meaning of the Russian word, which was developed fairly recently—that my husband is a person who believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the Communist movement. Now, I can give you the translation of this word if you would like to insert, because maybe in Washington you can get a better description of this word.

Mr. Mamantov. Yes; ideinyi—which has political connotations, and it means a person who believes in the Communist movement, Communist ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the Communist Party. But this is a step to achieve the membership in the Communist Party.

And I think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and I translated it in the FBI report, "idealist," which is not correct. So it is broken down first, pioneer. Second, the membership in the Youth Communist Party. Third, the candidate for the Communist Party. And this third step is eventually for this particular work.

Mr. Belin. As I understand it now, you say there are various stages to become a member of the Communist Party in Russia, is that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. When mother heard this word from Marina, she couldn't talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of the person becoming a full time member Communist was most dangerous for the people in Russia or in Latvia or in the Soviet Union.

Mrs. Gravitis. I mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. They are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic people.

Mr. Belin. In other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to the last stage, which is the actual Communist membership, is that it?

Mrs. Gravitis. Yes. I also said in the previous conversation, which I can assure you that this is true, which I know from my personal experience. When I was teaching from 1940 until 1941, people like this, who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the Communist Party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when I was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that.

Mr. Belin. I believe that she said that a very small percentage of the Russians are actual members of the Communist Party, and that it is the screening process that gets memberships, is that correct?

Mr. Mamantov. Yes. It is a small percent of population are the members,137 are the actual members of the Communist Party, and to become, they have to gain reward. I mean, they have to be advanced by the individual deed.

Mrs. Gravitis. At that time there were approximately 2 million, which is 1 percent, approximately. And I have read recently that there are approximately 5 or more million people members.

Mr. Mamantov. She read. She said that she read recently also that there are approximately 20 million of the communistic youth members, or members of the communistic youth organization.

Mrs. Gravitis. If you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get education. You cannot advance in your educational system.

Mrs. Gravitis. She said that when she got married she was expelled from the communistic youth organization, which in Russia is called Komsomol.

Mrs. Gravitis. Because she married an American. I understood that this was the reason why she was expelled. And I asked how did they allow you to leave the Soviet Union. When you are expelled, they considered them as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to work, a working permit. And they don't give those people also the free education or scholarship.

Mr. Belin. When you are expelled from the Communist movement, does this affect whether or not you get out of the country?

Mr. Belin. Did she say much about the people that she knew here in Dallas, Tex.?

Mrs. Gravitis. She said that many Russians helped her and Americans here in this vicinity helped her. She said that she wouldn't like to meet with the Russians any more.

Mrs. Gravitis. Because Russians are asking too many questions. I feel that because she got tired of being questioned all the time.

Mr. Mamantov. They haven't talked on this particular subject. However, mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a small child. She talked only about her husband who didn't have work and they didn't have an automobile.

Mrs. Gravitis. Yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. And I understood that he was in Oak Cliff a photographer, and when he went to New Orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer.

Mr. Belin. Did Marina Oswald say anything about what her husband did or had done in Russia and where he had gone?

Mrs. Gravitis. No; only that he was in Minsk and then Leningrad so much. I didn't ask her any more questions.

Mr. Belin. What kind of living accommodations did Lee Harvey Oswald have in Russia? A house, or an apartment, or what?

Mrs. Gravitis. She said that in Leningrad they had a room, and she volunteered138 to say that the room was better than the Russian people locally would have.

Mr. Belin. Was it just that he was an American? Did she say, or was it because he was in this so-called third stage of the—of becoming a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. Belin. Did she say anything about whether or not the husband, Lee Harvey Oswald, had a gun in Russia or whether he went hunting there?

Mrs. Gravitis. I didn't have time to talk. It is my personal opinion, if he is just an average man in Russia, he wouldn't have any chance to have a gun or rifle or shotgun in Russia.

Mrs. Gravitis. This is so in America. There is no such thing as hunting clubs over there.

Mrs. Gravitis. Of course there are trappers, but either they are professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. Otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm.

Mr. Belin. You have to be a member of the Communist Party to belong to a hunting club?

Mr. Belin. Did Marina Oswald say anything about ever going for walks to discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in Russia?

Mr. Belin. When you say that the living accommodations were better because Lee Harvey Oswald was an American, what do you mean they were better? In what way would they be better than the average person there?

Mrs. Gravitis. The room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better area of the city. I think, because he would write to his relatives, that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations.

Mrs. Gravitis. She liked the United States and she also said that she was watching TV that particular day when they talked, and she saw our President being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. It was unbelievable. She said it is unbelievable such a freedom.

Mrs. Gravitis. She didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her daughter.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else in this first conversation that you had with her that she said about her husband?

Mrs. Gravitis. First of all, what struck me was that she said it is below his dignity to take any kind of work. That surprised me very much. That is my personal interpretation.

Mr. Belin. My question is this. Is there anything else that Marina Oswald said about her husband?

Mr. Belin. Now did you have any other telephone conversations with Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Gravitis. Approximately maybe 2 or 3 weeks. I don't remember exactly when Mrs. Paine came back from San Antonio.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Paine about either Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald since these conversations with Marina Oswald, or about that time? Have you ever since talked to Mrs. Paine about the Oswalds?

Mrs. Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald obtained a job as a photographer in New Orleans, and now Marina can join him and go to New Orleans.

Mr. Belin. Did Mrs. Paine ever invite you over to the home to meet Marina Oswald or her husband?

Mrs. Gravitis. No; but she offered to bring Marina to our house. I mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring Marina to our house.

Mrs. Gravitis. Because he was using again this word, ideinyi. He was in the third stage of obtaining the Communist membership. Because I am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some information on us and notifying their own people.

Mr. Belin. By the use of the word "they," who do you mean? Lee Harvey Oswald, Marina Oswald, or both, or some other person?

Mrs. Gravitis. Oswald—the people who are in this particular stage trying to get promotion. So they would spy on us. I had a fear.

Mr. Belin. Did you think or did you say anything to Mrs. Paine about whether Marina Oswald had anything to do with this group that might be trying to spy, or what have you?

Mrs. Gravitis. No; have not said. However, I said to Mrs. Paine to be more careful.

Mrs. Gravitis. She said, "don't worry." Mrs. Paine is an American woman, and she is very naive, as all Americans are naive, nice, and very generous.

Mr. Belin. Are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the Warren Commission, the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Belin. But you are here voluntarily to testify here? You have been asked to come here?

Mrs. Gravitis. Nobody dragged us here; yes. We certainly volunteered, if you interpret it that way.

Mr. Belin. Is there any other information you can give about Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way?

Mrs. Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Oswald—I did not know her last name, she always called her Marina and Lee—so Mrs. Paine told me that Lee wants to send his wife to the Soviet Union. I asked why. She said, "She was pregnant." And she said, "Lee said that he doesn't have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back to the Soviet Union." I said that140 this isn't true. I was surprised, and I replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in the States. That is, Mrs. Paine was surprised if this could be true, that we could get local free help. I suggested to her to contact her personal physician and he will send Marina somewhere.

She said I will go on my way back from vacation and pick up Marina and bring her. And then when she got back, she called me again and said she is very happy for this suggestion, that Marina got free medical help, had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. I was very surprised how Mrs. Paine didn't know, and Oswald being also an American didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to people who don't have money.

Mr. Belin. Did Mrs. Paine or Marina Oswald or anyone say anything more to you about Marina Oswald or Lee Harvey Oswald that you think should be noted here, that we should discuss?

Mrs. Gravitis. Mrs. Paine told me that Lee is very bad husband, that he even hit her, Marina.

Mrs. Gravitis. When she went to pick up Marina in New Orleans. She said, "I have to go in person to pick her up because I cannot write her things like that, that Lee would read her letters and then would reprimand his wife."

Mr. Belin. Did she say whether Marina said that this had been different, that Lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, or was this something different that happened when they came to New Orleans?

Mr. Belin. Is there any other information that you can think of that might be helpful here?

Mrs. Gravitis. Mrs. Paine was at our house the first of April of this year, 1964. I asked if she thought if Marina would know if Lee had intended to kill somebody, or President. And Mrs. Paine replied that she thought that Marina did not know. However, she felt that Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but she didn't tell Marina.

Mrs. Gravitis. Excuse me, Marina didn't tell Mrs. Paine. Marina knew that Oswald was in Mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Gravitis. Because I felt that he was preparing himself for a trip somewhere; either Cuba or somewhere else.

Mr. Belin. But this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon which to base it?

Mrs. Gravitis. I would help you more, but I don't have enough acquaintance here in town that I really feel that I would know more. I know Mrs. Paine beside her Russian tutoring so well, because Mrs. Paine or her husband left her. She was separated or still is separated, so Mrs. Paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. Her husband came home after the President was assassinated.

Mrs. Gravitis. I asked her, but Mrs. Paine said she don't know why. And she still has domestic problems. I feel that he would like to make it easier on her after that particular time.

Mr. Belin. Well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, Mrs. Gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help.

Mr. Belin. Your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the deposition141 and sign it or make corrections. Do you want to come down and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and let it go directly to Washington?

TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY

The testimony of Paul Roderick Gregory was taken at 4 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your deposition by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. I believe that he included a copy of the Executive order and the Resolution of Congress, as well as a copy of the Commission's Rules of Procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right?

Mr. Liebeler. I want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, which we understand you gained as a result of your association with the Oswalds, basically during 1962.

Mr. Liebeler. You are presently a student of the University of Oklahoma; isn't that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Your father is originally from somewhere in Siberia, is that not correct?

Mr. Gregory. I would guess about 1920, or '21, or '22. I am not sure of the exact year.

142 Mr. Liebeler. He has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is that correct?

Mr. Gregory. I can't tell you the exact date. It must have been February the 10th, I believe, or February the 9th, because it was right around my birthday, which is February the 10th.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you had occasion to speak with your father over the telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared before the Commission in Washington.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave before the Commission?

Mr. Gregory. No. He only said that he mentioned my name. That is the only thing he said about the testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of that event?

Mr. Gregory. I met Lee and Marina Oswald in the summer of 1962. I would suppose in the middle of June. I met them both at Lee's brother's house in the western part of Fort Worth. Lee Oswald had become acquainted with my father a week or two weeks earlier. I think he came to him with the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the Russian language; I think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to use Russian.

I think he came in my father's office twice. I am not sure, because I wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was staying at the time.

And I don't know, he may have said, "Come see us." And my father and I were both interested in meeting his wife who was Russian, we heard. So, I believe my father found out their address and we went out for a visit, purely social visit. That was, as I say, probably in the middle of June, 1962, and that was the first time I ever met either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know that at some time, in about June of 1962, your father invited the Oswalds to come to your house?

Mr. Gregory. That was at the end of the summer. They had actually been at our house twice. One time about a month before this dinner at our house. I just drove by with them for a few minutes. That was the first time they had ever been to our house. And the second time was at this dinner which you mentioned.

Mr. Gregory. I can't give you the date. It was near the end of the summer, I imagine, in August, 1962.

Mr. Liebeler. So the first time, then, that you met Oswald was at his brother's place in Fort Worth?

Mr. Gregory. His brother's name, I think, was Bob Oswald. Bob Oswald's wife and their children, I think they had two or three young kids, Lee, and Marina, and June Lee, their baby, those were the only people there.

Mr. Liebeler. Tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the conversation was at that time?

Mr. Gregory. I remember they brought out pictures which they had taken in the Soviet Union and showed us where they had lived in Minsk, and I believe they143 might have had pictures of Leningrad. I am not sure. And then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how they passed through Poland and Germany. And then my father wanted to know how, what Marina thought of Russia, if it had changed after all the years. And that was the general tone of the conversation.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any details of the conversation about the Oswalds' life in Russia?

Mr. Gregory. At this time I did not. Later on we had quite a bit of discussion about it, but not this time.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you go through the period of time that you knew the Oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you met them at Robert Oswald's house at Fort Worth, to the last time that you saw them?

Mr. Gregory. Okay. We have already gone through the first meeting, and right after the first meeting I left town for about a month. I visited in San Francisco. I returned and then we decided it would be a good idea if I would take Russian lessons from Marina, and it would be quite a big help.

Therefore, the second time I saw them was in June, the middle of June, a month, and to the 10th of August, let's say, just as a guess, we went over to their house, my father and I.

We had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten minutes. And we said, "Paul would like to take Russian lessons from Marina," and she said, "Fine." And I set up dates to go twice a week, I think Tuesdays and Thursdays, or Tuesdays and Fridays—I can't remember the exact dates. Therefore, I was at their house two times a week from, say, the middle of August until I went back to school which was in the middle of September.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you also present at the dinner which your father gave for the Oswalds?

Mr. Gregory. Myself, my father, the Oswalds, George Bouhe, Anna Meller, her husband, I can't remember his first name; then Mrs. Clark and Mr. Clark. I can't give you their first names.

Mr. Gregory. I think they were there. I could be mistaken. There is a possibility they weren't. I can't remember exactly.

Usually, the reason is, whenever we have the Russians over, they were there. Now that I think about it, they weren't, because I believe my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and Mrs. Clark's husband didn't understand Russian. Therefore, I guess they weren't there. Then my mother was there and June Lee was there.

Mr. Gregory. Yes. I believe that was all. And I saw them once more, if you are interested. That was probably the Friday or Saturday after Thanksgiving of 1962.

Marina called up. I was home for vacation. And she said that she and Lee were at Robert Oswald's house for Thanksgiving dinner, or something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the visit, and I would take them down to the bus station, because they rode the bus over from Dallas.

They had since then moved to Dallas. And I went and picked them up and brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and I took them down to the bus station, and that was the last time I saw them.

Mr. Liebeler. You just left them off at the bus station and they went and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to Dallas?

Mr. Liebeler. You let them—did you ever give any money to either Lee or Marina Oswald?

144 Mr. Gregory. Yes; I gave Marina a check. As I remember, it was around $35 or $40, something like that.

This was for the Russian lessons which she did give me. As I remember, $35, something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the Oswalds any money?

Mr. Gregory. I believe Mr. Bouhe gave them money. I know he gave them gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. I heard he gave them clothes, but I, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay.

Mr. Liebeler. Did either of the Oswalds ever spend any money or pay any bills while in your presence?

Mr. Gregory. Yes. I often took them—I believe the second day I would go over in the week was Friday, and I would usually take them shopping and we would go down to a Leonard Department Store where you could get groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. But the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of approximately how much they spent on food?

Mr. Gregory. It was very little. I recall I was amazed at how little they bought, and that Lee would always be very careful with the meat. He would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. I mean, that he would get the better cuts and things like that. I remember they bought very little though.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any money or pay any bills; is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You did not see them? I suppose the answer should be, "Yes; I did not see them"?

Mr. Liebeler. Did the Oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard?

Mr. Gregory. Not that I can remember. There is something faintly about them saying, "Well, if we had this money, we would buy something for June Lee," but I can't think of any specific instance.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, taking all of your experiences with the Oswalds together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between Lee or Marina, as best you can, about the whole Russian episode, why Oswald went to Russia; what he did when he was there; how he met Marina; why he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on?

Mr. Gregory. On one of the questions I can't answer very well because I never discussed with him why he went. I personally never asked him.

At this dinner, I am sure you have already heard an account of it, he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the American system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and the desire to get money. That seemed to be his only objection, that I ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left.

Let's see, what was the other. Oh, according to Lee, then also he was very disgusted with the Marines, how the Marines had treated him. I don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and going to the Soviet Union. Maybe it was.

Mr. Gregory. Oh, I just asked him—I knew he had been in the Marines—what he thought of it. He would never speak of it. He was sort of—look disgusted145 and say, "I don't want to talk about it," or something like that. Those are the only two reasons which I heard, and the second one would be one which I am not sure of.

Mr. Liebeler. He never discussed with you beyond the extent you have indicated, his experience in the Marine Corps?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. Gregory. No; he never did. I think a lot of things which he told me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, from the same high school that I had gone to, and I read in the papers that he was only there a month or so. So, possibly a lot of information which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a discharge.

Mr. Liebeler. Whether it would be right or not, it is important that you tell us what he told you. You indicate now that he did tell you that he graduated from Arlington Heights High School, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. And you believed that until after the assassination and you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from Arlington?

Mr. Gregory. He was in some kind of factory. Evidently, according to him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because I remember asking him once about thievery in the Soviet Union, because I always read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to buy all they need. And he said that he himself had stolen a radio and phonograph. From that I know it was some kind of a shop and he ran some kind of a machine. Because he told me of some incident when he had to—the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of Lenin and later they moved the equipment. It was heavy equipment, and they set the machines so that the men could work facing Lenin. And then they decided Lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place in the shop, and the Commissar came in and inspected the next setup and decided Lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it around to face Lenin's new position.

He brought that up as a—I would ask him about what the people in the Soviet Union think of a person who is a member of the Communist Party. And he seemed to classify all members of the Communist Party as opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a Communist Party man who came in and said you have to put Lenin back there, and therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. He thought it was stupid. And he said all the members of the Communist Party were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a disgust for the members of the Communist Party.

Mr. Gregory. Yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which the country should be based on. In other words, they were not true Communists. They were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, in his opinion. That might have been a personal interpretation on my part.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that he worked and what he did?

Mr. Gregory. Just that he worked in a shop that I mentioned. I remember his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough to eat, that he had to go, either he or Marina, would have to go stand in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes and cabbage while he was there. And he would always speak about how poorly he ate. That seemed to be his great objection to the Soviet Union, that he didn't eat very well.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate that the same was true of other Soviet citizens, or——

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he might have received more favorable treatment as compared to other Soviet citizens who held similar jobs?

Mr. Gregory. No. I think he was under the opinion that he possibly received worse than just average treatment, because I think in the Soviet Union, as I understand it, the methods of the bestowing of favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing shortage. And he complained that he did not get good housing. He lived in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, because he had no place to go.

If he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get a new apartment. And I think I asked him a question about are people in the Soviet Union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the apartment.

Then, as to whether he got special treatment, I asked Marina. I said, "Was he the center of attention in Russia," and she said he was quite a, I wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and I am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. She said she met him at a dance, I guess in Minsk, and she didn't know who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, because of his accent, thought he was from the Baltic States, and later somebody called her aside and said, "I guess you don't know who he is," and so forth, and I guess they more or less left him alone.

I know he mentioned having several friends in the Soviet Union. One was some young fellow, I think his name was Pavel, and possibly another fellow, and I know after he was in the United States he continued to correspond with these people over there.

He showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. I believe one was the son of a highly fairly influential person.

Mr. Gregory. I think. I just remember something about him, about him being a general's son or a colonel's son.

Mr. Gregory. There is a possibility. I believe they let me read one letter which was harmless. There was no—I mean it was a personal letter. Maybe I would.

Mr. Gregory. It might be. To tell you the truth, the first name Pavel, I am fairly sure of the Pavel part.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald let you read any letters other than the one you just mentioned?

Mr. Gregory. No. It may have just arrived or he was explaining something about how you address a letter differently. How you put where it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. He was showing me something, and as I recall, I read the letter, but it was just personal matters. I can't even remember the contents.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no recollection of the contents of the letter at this point?

Mr. Liebeler. Was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort?

Mr. Liebeler. On this question of whether Oswald thought that possibly he was treated less favorably than other Soviet citizens, there has been some147 testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the Soviet Union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be given when he got there.

Mr. Gregory. Yes; I remember something now. He expected—I think he and I got along well because he considered me fairly smart because I was interested in the Soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, fairly well educated. He seemed to read quite a bit. But he expected to go over there and get into a Russian university. He made an application for the Peace University or one of these universities for the foreign students, I think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not accepted into this. That was his first idea, I believe, to go over there and go to school. Then after he was not accepted, they sent him somewhere to work in a little factory, and I guess he didn't quite like this.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to Russia was to enter college or university there?

Mr. Gregory. I don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make this application.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention to you anything about an application to the Albert Schweitzer College in Switzerland? Did he indicate to you in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had received by Russian authorities?

Mr. Gregory. Well, there was. He said when he wanted to return, it was touch and go whether Marina would get to come back with him, and he felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about meetings which they had held in the factory or place where Marina worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to leave the country. And I think this went on for weeks and weeks where they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement for the fact that they did allow her to return with him.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any more of the details about what he said about that?

Mr. Liebeler. About the meetings and his expression of amazement as to why they did let Marina come back.

Mr. Gregory. I think he said something about it was just an accident where maybe 1 out of 10 just happens to get through where they allow it. He seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her go. It was more or less an accident.

Mr. Liebeler. So that he indicated to you his surprise that Marina had been permitted to leave the Soviet Union with him?

Mr. Liebeler. He explained it basically in terms of an accident or something that he couldn't readily explain?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted Marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of reduced tension between the Soviet Union and the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else that he said about the subject of Marina being able to come back with him?

Mr. Gregory. No. Marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for her.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she indicate that she had had any nervous difficulties as a result of this?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you learn at any time from either of the Oswalds that Marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was put upon her by her friends?

Mr. Liebeler. Did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, that Marina went to Kharkov on a vacation at one time?

148 Mr. Gregory. No; I asked them about travel that each of them had done in the Soviet Union, and the only other place that they mentioned as having been, or one of them as having been, was Leningrad, which was the city where Marina received her training as a pharmacist. And I don't know if Lee had gone to Leningrad or not. Of course, Lee would always tell me about his trips to Moscow and his trips to the mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. He seemed to speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee.

Mr. Gregory. No; he may have told me. I am sure it was in winter, because he said—no, I am not sure. Put this down as something I don't remember well, but I think that he said that it was cold and that the Russians let him get up to the first line because he was an American. It could have been someone else, because I have had several friends that—I can't remember if that was Lee or not.

When he did speak of, I believe when we were having our conversations was after—I can't remember when the de-Stalinization was, when they took Stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before Lee came back, and I asked him about that. That was another thing he seemed to get quite a laugh out of. He looked at it very skeptically and thought the Russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the street signs would change overnight and no one would mention Stalin's name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. I am saying this to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't—never mind.

Mr. Gregory. Well, I don't know how to put it. In other words, he looked at things critically over there.

He was not one who would say Khrushchev said this, therefore it is right. He always was more or less critically observant of everything he saw over there.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say critically, you mean, as I understand now your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and perceptively? He just didn't follow things because somebody handed it out?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was just complaining about things, do you?

Mr. Gregory. I could say you can use it in both senses. My main point was that if Khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone who would be a conformist, if Khrushchev says that is fine, he was not that type. He always expressed a great admiration for Khrushchev. He seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. And he said you cannot read a speech of Khrushchev's without liking the man. He said he was a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very brilliant man and very able leader.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember anything else that he might have said about him, Mr. Khrushchev?

Mr. Gregory. Well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that was the general idea. And while we were on Khrushchev, whenever he would speak about Khrushchev, Kennedy would naturally come into mind, and he expressed admiration of Kennedy.

Both he and Marina would say, "Nice young man." I never heard him say anything derogatory about Kennedy. He seemed to admire the man, because I remember they had a copy of Life magazine which was always in their living room, and it had Kennedy's picture on it, or I believe Kennedy or someone else, and he always expressed what I would interpret as admiration for Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall any specific details concerning his remarks about Kennedy or the conversation that you had with him concerning Kennedy?

Mr. Gregory. No; just that one time, as I can remember in their apartment that we did look at this picture of Kennedy, and Marina said, "He looks like a nice young man." And Lee said something, yes, he is a good leader, or something, as I remember, was a positive remark about Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. He never expressed any adverse feelings or made any adverse remarks about President Kennedy in your presence?

149 Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the presence of anyone else?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear through any other source that he made any remarks about Governor Connally?

Mr. Liebeler. As far as Marina was concerned, you indicated that she too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward President Kennedy?

Mr. Liebeler. Would that indicate to you that Oswald had probably indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read English or understand English?

Mr. Gregory. I didn't think about it, and would not think that would be true. I couldn't answer the question.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion of Marina's ability to speak English during the time you knew her?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; the very last time I ever saw her was at Robert Oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would go sit in the corner while everyone else ate.

Mr. Liebeler. She didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; evidently she had eaten before I got there, just in time to take them by, but every time I would go over I would ask, "What have you learned in English," and she would always say, "I haven't learned a thing." I personally gave her some vocabulary which I had used to study Russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to study English words and I assumed that would help her. I don't know if she used them.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever think that Marina was deceptive as to the extent to which she could understand English?

Mr. Gregory. No; I don't believe so. Well, she never spoke English with me, or never attempted to speak English. She would say, "How do you do," something like that.

Mr. Gregory. Well, I can't tell you, because I am not that much of a judge. You would have to ask an expert about that. It was this poorly spoken Russian, but he was completely fluent. He understood more than I did and he could express any idea, I believe, that he wanted to in Russian. But it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of grammatical errors, and Marina would correct him, and he would get peeved at her for doing this. She would say you are supposed to say like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "Don't bother me."

Mr. Liebeler. He indicated that he didn't care to have Marina correct him as far as his use of the Russian language was concerned?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussion with them as to why Marina did not learn English?

Mr. Gregory. I said I thought it was kind of strange that she was not picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home and she had no opportunity to speak. I did not observe any obvious attempts on Lee's part to hold back her English, but I guess there was an attempt since he would not help her himself. Evidently he didn't help her.

150 I knew that later on George Bouhe tried to teach her English. He would send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct them. I don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these lessons started after I had gone away to school.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any opportunity to judge Oswald's ability to write the Russian language? You mentioned that you had seen this one letter. Did you notice any misspelled words in it?

Mr. Gregory. I couldn't say at all. I imagine he would have quite a bit of difficulty, because I don't think he had any understanding of the grammar.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think that his proficiency in Russian was particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Gregory. I couldn't judge. All I think is, he was fluent and he could read well in Russian. Probably he did have a better grammatical knowledge than I thought, because of all of the reading which I saw him do, excepting for a few books, was in Russian.

Mr. Gregory. I couldn't say. He was always going down to the library and coming back with all kinds of books. Usually he would not read in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. Toward the end, I was writing a paper and I needed Marina's help to correct the grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he would sit and read. He read Lenin. I can't remember which book it was, but that is the only thing I have really seen him read. And then he always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever see him read any books other than this book about Lenin?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember the name of any books that Oswald brought home from the library that you saw in his apartment?

Mr. Gregory. I can't remember. It would have been nothing extremely interesting. I can't give any titles.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of the study of history?

Mr. Gregory. No; I always—my opinion of him was that he was not very smart. I thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. That was my opinion of him.

He just said he always had this love of history, and he several times—one evening he went out to TCU and another time he went out to get the catalog for Arlington State to try to get some night school or something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he did not have the high school degree. And he always spoke that he wanted to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history and philosophy and things like that.

Mr. Gregory. It was the first time I ever went over there to have a lesson, he was gone. And he returned after, say, 15 minutes. He said he was at TCU, and he had a schedule of their classes. And another time I took and I would take them out to look at the town. One night we went to TCU, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he wanted to go see, and I said, "No; I am sure no one will be there."

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the officials at TCU concerning the night school program?

Mr. Gregory. No; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came back with a schedule, because I remember looking at the schedule.

151 Mr. Liebeler. Did he come back with the schedule before or after the occasion on which you were driving in your car to TCU?

Mr. Gregory. No; it seems the first evening I went over there he referred to the schedule.

Mr. Liebeler. So, it was after that that he asked you during your drive whether you thought anybody would be present at TCU?

Mr. Gregory. I would say August 10. I would hit it within a week either way. All this time I thought he had his high school degree and I was encouraging him to go back. I said, "Why don't you?" And he used as an excuse that he had to work. And he never did tell me that he did not finish high school.

Mr. Liebeler. Going back to the statements that he may have made about his activities in Russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that he had a source of income in the Soviet Union other than the income he received from his job at the factory?

Mr. Gregory. No; he never did. He always spoke as if he didn't have enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any discussions about his source of income and what he did with it? I know you cannot specifically remember the amount that he was paid.

Mr. Gregory. No; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. It seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of which he seemed to be very proud.

I think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a closet full of junk.

Mr. Gregory. I am not positive about the boots. I remember he had one article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the Soviet Union, and he seemed to be proud of it. As I remember, it was boots.

Mr. Liebeler. You have no other recollection about it than what you have just expressed?

Mr. Gregory. No; I think a lot of his clothes were from the Soviet Union, but I can't identify the articles.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever mention anything about assistance he might have received from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Gregory. No; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was the money he got through the U.S. Ambassador to Russia.

Mr. Gregory. He just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, and the fellow gave him something like $300. And then after that, he spoke of his trip back. He went through Poland and East Germany.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in Moscow before leaving the Soviet Union to return?

Mr. Gregory. The only time I know of his being in Moscow was when he was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time I heard him mention being in Moscow.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and Marina to return to the United States?

Mr. Gregory. The only difficulties which I have heard are the difficulties I have already brought up about the pressure put on Marina. But as far as paperwork, I can't bring anything out specifically.

Mr. Liebeler. He never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered with the U.S. authorities in that regard?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about the U.S. officials concerning his return?

Mr. Liebeler. I thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned him money to return?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; I am saying he never expressed an opinion one way or the other. It seems to me that normally a person in that situation would say he was very glad they gave him the money. He seemed to expect this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never expressed any gratitude toward the Ambassador or whoever it was that gave him the money.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he express any resentment toward any of the Government officials concerning his return?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to the State Department?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion either from your discussions with Oswald as to whether or not Oswald was well liked in the Soviet Union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived?

Mr. Gregory. As I said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an outsider, and the only two people I ever heard him speak of were the two I mentioned besides Marina. Evidently Marina was a special case, that she did pay attention to him.

He evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, could I say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where the fellows at the factory were studying night course in English or something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them any more. Evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so I doubt if he had too many acquaintances.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that all he told you about the incident when the fellow factory workers were trying to learn English?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; and I think one fellow, Pavel, he came to Lee to help him with his English and he said this fellow was a good student, and he evidently gave him quite a bit of help.

Mr. Liebeler. Lee gave quite a bit of help to Pavel and Pavel was trying to learn English?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and refused to pay attention.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate whether Pavel gave him any assistance in learning Russian?

Mr. Liebeler. Or whether he received any other training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Gregory. The only thing he said he learned in the factory when he went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and Marina helped him quite a bit.

Marina told me that Lee's Russian when I was with him was bad compared to the Russian Lee spoke while he was in the Soviet Union.

In fact, I have Lee's dictionary which he gave me. He gave me his Russian dictionary and he told me, "I don't need it any more," and therefore he gave me the dictionary.

Mr. Gregory. Yes; I looked through it to see if there is any writing and there is no writing. There is something, he wrote a name up there or something.

Mr. Liebeler. If you would make it available to us, we would appreciate it. We will have somebody from the Secret Service or FBI contact you in Norman153 and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the Commission. How do you want to handle it?

Mr. Liebeler. We will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and we will eventually return it to you.

Mr. Gregory. Yes; okay. I have a card also which he sent me, if you are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to Dallas, which was dated on November 1, approximately, 1962. Those are the only two things I have that belonged to him or were from him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips that he went on while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina tell you anything that would indicate the reason why Marina seemed to take a special interest in Oswald, or seemed to be a special case, I think you used that terminology?

Mr. Gregory. Yes. I could tell you—this is a personal opinion—but evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met quite a bit of opposition because she did see Lee. And I am not sure, but I believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, too.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you remember any specific situation that she may have said about that?

Mr. Gregory. All I know is that when she returned—she said she had written her relatives—she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you infer from that that they gave her difficulty in connection with her marriage to Lee Oswald, or that they disapproved her decision to come to the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that she had with her relatives?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Gregory. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."

She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite enthusiastic about America.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you discuss that with her at all?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well—" we really never went into it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I can't answer specifically.

Mr. Liebeler. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian or to improve your Russian?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with Marina,154 for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?

Mr. Gregory. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed to be one of his major things.

And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because so-and-so and so-and-so."

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised in the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about that.

Mr. Gregory. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it, where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or some person sold them something black market and—I can't remember it, but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet Union.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I have just stated?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the United States to Texas?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?

Mr. Gregory. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.

He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."

Mr. Liebeler. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of wealth and position?

Mr. Liebeler. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?

155 Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission to become married, or anything of that nature?

Mr. Gregory. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already covered?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?

Mr. Liebeler. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?

Mr. Gregory. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he knew anything about it.

Mr. Liebeler. What did he say about it? I am interested in this, because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us as much as you can.

Mr. Gregory. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion about economics.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. Gregory. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.

Mr. Gregory. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but he would—I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.

156 Mr. Gregory. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out again, but it was a real hot moment.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?

Mr. Gregory. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.

Mr. Gregory. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this time I had no suspicion, that—but possibly I never asked her where did you get the black eye.

Mr. Gregory. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought maybe it could have happened back there then.

Mr. Liebeler. Are there any other reasons on which you base your opinion that he had a bad temper?

Mr. Gregory. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We were very friendly.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit him as an agent?

Mr. Gregory. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed toward the Soviet.

Mr. Gregory. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just didn't enter my mind that he could have been.

Mr. Liebeler. It is only after the assassination that you considered this question; is that correct?

Mr. Gregory. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was, how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never get there."

He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought about everything.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?

Mr. Gregory. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as—evidently he was, but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say, fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.

But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the assassination, but just going over to the Soviet Union——

157 Mr. Liebeler. Did you consider this question prior to the assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you knew him in 1962?

Mr. Gregory. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.

I think he felt that his brother—this is a personal opinion—that they were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.

And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Mr. Liebeler. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of education?

Mr. Liebeler. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make any inquiries on that?

Mr. Gregory. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher education.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?

Mr. Gregory. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him doing.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. Gregory. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever happened. It is just a general judgment.

Mr. Liebeler. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was peculiar in any way?

Mr. Liebeler. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did think that about Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders in the various countries?

Mr. Gregory. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement, and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.

Mr. Liebeler. Was that translated into any animosity against the leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?

158 Mr. Gregory. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to reflect on your prior testimony?

Mr. Gregory. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the statement. It was more or less——

Mr. Liebeler. Philosophical opposition—no personal animosity expressed at all?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits, as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any other women during the time that you knew him?

Mr. Liebeler. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent?

Mr. Gregory. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to commit suicide?

Mr. Gregory. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another half brother and his wife.

Mr. Liebeler. After the assassination did you learn that there was a man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager?

Mr. Liebeler. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or any other place?

Mr. Liebeler. Just never met him—any individual, who appeared to be159 Marina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or anything else?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. Gregory. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if we ever went anywhere, I drove.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a simple statement?

Mr. Gregory. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he said, "Yes."

Mr. Gregory. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery store or something like that.

Mr. Gregory. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of him driving a car.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at that time?

Mr. Gregory. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be a likely person, but I did not think he had done it.

The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service talked to me and said the evidence looked——

Mr. Gregory. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and said it looked like he was the one. And my—I more or less reoriented my thinking that he was the one.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's alleged guilt?

Mr. Gregory. No; he just said something that, I think something came over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't remember the exact words.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was a member during the time you knew him?

Mr. Gregory. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned.

Mr. Gregory. I think I heard my father mention the name De Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas.

Mr. Liebeler. I have no further questions. If there is anything that you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it.

If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the record now.

Mr. Liebeler. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE

The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. Jenner. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States, is chairman.

Mr. Jenner. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you.

Mr. Jenner. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us.

Mrs. Leslie. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I was born, how I came here?

Mrs. Leslie. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years ago.

Mrs. Leslie. In 1960—it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband died in 1947, whom I married—I married in 1923, so I am a widow about 17 years.

Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife, asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret—there was not a real Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a Russian church on Newton Street.

Mrs. Leslie. In English—Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way, Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came there to christen the daughter June, I heard.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She is a ballerina—a dancer. She met here many people—mostly connected with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs. Ford.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some Russians in Fort Worth—those Fort Worth Russians—the Clarks.

Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in 1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them, because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George Bouhe's apartment.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the 12th of June 1962.

Mrs. Leslie. 1962—so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which year it was—it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him—I just have seen them once.

Mrs. Leslie. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't know exactly—I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife.

Mrs. Leslie. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for dinner, so I presume it was something—3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place for dinner.

Mrs. Leslie. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I tell you—when I was introduced to Oswald—I didn't catch his name, his last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't impress me very much.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes—he didn't impress me, you know, but the only thing—the only one thing impressed me—he was talking quite fluently Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there, but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian language, but sometimes he was—he didn't use grammar things or something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar.

Mrs. Leslie. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying—they have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will tell you—this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to help everybody he can. So, he was born also in—Petrograd, before the Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this couple. He wanted to help them.

Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now—so many new words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice Russian language and that's all I remember.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because she knew all terms, the Latin terms—something that not many people know, because she was educated in this field.

Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby, you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby it was. It wasn't the second baby then.

Then, I never met them—sometimes I was getting calls—how was this Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work for him—he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them financially.

Mrs. Leslie. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they are and so on.

Mr. Jenner. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a man like George Bouhe?

Mrs. Leslie. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is a temperate man, a little bit—he can tell you—insult you sometimes without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years, so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of the finest things which happens.

When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then—she was very pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took her photograph in the costume and when163 I was 5 years old, I sold this photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a portrait of my mother.

It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was a very rare case.

I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe, I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition, maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more. He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for $60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20." And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this book—or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?"

There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book and I will show you. I cannot tell you."

And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks and so forth?'

I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you know, so since that—it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of it.

After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He says he doesn't want me to know him—he doesn't want to know me, so I do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since—since this case, but I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology. I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know, duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say, "Hello, how are you," and that's all.

Mr. Jenner. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act toward each other on the occasion when you saw them?

Mrs. Leslie. I will tell you something—I don't know if Bouhe told you or others too. When she was out at a place—she had a black eye and she has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a light, the door was open and I hit it—the kitchen door."

And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife—this is not proper—to beat his wife.

Mrs. Leslie. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and like164 Fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little blanket—she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took her—I think, you know, that she was staying with them.

I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I didn't see her until when she was on television.

Mrs. Leslie. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my daughter's and he is in Haiti.

Mrs. Leslie. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter—Nattialie Krassooska of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going together, swimming together, and I don't know where—that's why she invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when I came, he already married this Jeanne.

Mrs. Leslie. She's Russian—I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know, a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South America or somewhere, you know, they walked.

Mrs. Leslie. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were the arrangements he made—with some Life Magazine, or something, but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife, Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then, occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will tell you something—that what many people were afraid of, his wife is atheist. She doesn't believe in God.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes—his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist too, you know, so I don't know—maybe he always is under the influence of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says, "Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about him.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and his attitude?

Mrs. Leslie. You know, after this trip, they are very—they don't like to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks, dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't know165 what kind of people—whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I cannot tell.

I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts.

Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with—and I don't know who knows them best, but I think—whether the Mellers do or not—I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is so hard to leave from there—his wife and child, why they let them out.

Mrs. Leslie. It has occurred to everybody—how—he was so poor and Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans—he was taking these trips—who supplied him with money—nobody knows. You know, that's a thought everybody was thinking—how he went there and how—it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions.

Mr. Jenner. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of good heartedness?

Mrs. Leslie. I hope so—I think so—I hope so. Mostly, you know, I cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I don't know—he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I know—they was meeting them—somebody told that the FBI was looking for De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this is over. Probably he will come back into the United States.

Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes—I wanted to tell this—so, when this naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald, and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her; you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything, and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name."

They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said, "Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize him, because when you are not expecting—I didn't know his last name and such a common face he has, and such a—you couldn't remember his face very closely—it is just one person you can recognize him, and that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so bad; I shaked his hand—I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I am sorry.

Mrs. Leslie. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford. It was166 correct that they was helping her because she received so much from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything and they was investing it or something—I don't know the situation, but she is now—they asked her—as Russian—to watch over her. I don't know what she does—I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to—I don't know, but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to—I don't know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian.

Mr. Jenner. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in, I know, at an inconvenience to you.

Mr. Jenner. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it, you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read.

Mr. Jenner. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney's office, he will have it.

Mr. Jenner. You had better call him because there are so many witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and read it and sign it.

Mrs. Leslie. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide anything.

Mrs. Leslie. Sir, I will call him and ask him—what I have to ask—is my deposition ready?

Mr. Davis. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be the one you could reach and she would be at this same number.

Mr. Davis. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank you so much, Mrs. Leslie.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 10 a.m., on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue N.E., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Jenner. Will you rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition you are about to give?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt have received letters from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, have you not?

Mr. Jenner. With which was enclosed copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, which was the legislation authorizing the creation of the Commission to167 investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130, President Lyndon Johnson—which brought the Commission actually into existence and appointed the Commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and obligations. And, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by the Commission for the taking of testimony before the Commission, and by deposition.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to the subject matter with which the Commission is charged.

In general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with Mr. Rankin's letter, the Commission is charged with the investigation and the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of President John F. Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963, the events that followed that assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the Commission relevant to its obligations.

In pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for some months, we have examined before the Commission and by way of deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of their lives, came into contact either with Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina Oswald, or others who had some relation with them. And in the course of our investigation, we have learned that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt befriended the Oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with them.

As you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people who do not know what the facts are—some of them know bits of the facts—which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that are largely personal. We are not doing so merely because we are curious.

I will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. It may not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of course, than any one witness would know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You know, this affair actually is hurting me quite a lot, particularly right now in Haiti, because President Duvalier—I have a contract with the Government.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They got wind I am called by the Warren committee. Nobody knows how it happened. And now he associates me, being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international assassins, and I am about to be expelled from the country. My contract may be broken.

So I discussed that with our Ambassador there, Mr. Timmons, and he said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best.

Supposedly, President Duvalier received a letter from Washington. Now, this is unofficial—one of the ministers informed me of that—in which this letter states that I was a very close friend of Oswald's, that I am a Polish Communist and a member of an international band.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I don't know from whom. Some kind of a letter he received from someone.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I am sure it is nothing official. I am sure it could not have been anything official.

I hope Mr. Timmons will investigate it. Because, naturally, the Minister of Finance of Haiti tells me that it is an official letter and seems to indicate that it comes from the FBI. But I just doubt it, personally. Probably a crank letter. I do not have an extraordinary admiration for the FBI. But, frankly, I don't think they would do anything like that, you know.

168 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. So I hope that this unpleasantness will be somehow repaired by Mr. Timmons. And I think that just a communication from him to the foreign office there might help. I am not persona non grata at the Embassy. He doesn't have to swear I am this or that, or that I am a good friend of his. But just that I am not persona non grata would be sufficient, I think. Because this job I have there in Haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is important for me. It involves a considerable amount of money, $285,000, and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with it—and preparation of this job started already in 1947, when I first came to Haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. It is a long-term approach that I have started, because I like the country, and I think it has excellent oil possibilities, and I finally got that contract about in March last year.

So if the committee could do something in that respect—I am going also to see a gentleman in the State Department who Mr. Timmons suggested me to see and explain the situation to him. It would be very unpleasant, just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Please think about what can be done in this respect, because it is really very important to me.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And excuse me. I am also employing American geologists there, and I am responsible for them and their families. I have several Haitian engineers and geologists working there. So it is not a fly-by-night project, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't regard it as such, and I know something about it. I think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. You were born in 1911?

Mr. Jenner. Some of the reports say April 17th and some say April 4th, or something of that nature. It is probably a difference in the calendar.

Mr. Jenner. Now, some of the reports indicate that this was Poland rather than Russia. Would you explain this?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I don't remember the town, because I never lived there to my memory. But it is not too far from the Polish border.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your father was Sergis Alexander Von Mohrenschildt, is that correct? And your mother was Alexandra Zopalsky?

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell me a little bit about your father? And may I say this. There appear in the reports that he was—or maybe your grandfather, was Swedish, or someone in your line was Swedish, and received some commission or grant from the Queen of Sweden at one time, or maybe your family.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, the family is of Swedish origin. The name is spelled M-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I saw last night in looking over these materials the spelling S-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right, it is spelled this way. That is a Swedish way of spelling. And the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical Swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. So in probably moving to Russia, or to the Baltic States, you see, which was an intermediary area between Russia and Sweden, they probably changed it to S-c-h-i-l-d-t. And it can also be written in Russian, at the same time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was a landowner. He was a director of the Nobel interests for a while. He was a marshal of nobility of the Minsk Province.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Marshal of nobility. He was elected representative of the landowners to the Government.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of Czarist Russia. He was born in Russia, and spent all his life in Russia, spoke German at home sometimes, sometimes Russian. That was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in Russia.

Mr. Jenner. You, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe five languages. May I see if I can recall them. English?

Mr. Jenner. Did you pick up any Danish when you were there, or do they speak French there?

Mr. Jenner. I think it might be well, Mr. De Mohrenschildt—I am trying to make this informal. I want you to relax.

May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, I will tend to inquire into these things.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am very glad that you do, because you know what I mean—it is probably being in a controversial business like I am, international business——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe so. I hope so. All sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time. And I don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of anything. I am very outspoken.

170 Mr. Jenner. I understand that you are, from witnesses I have interviewed, and from these mountains of reports.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I can imagine. By the way, those reports—again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business. I hope they are conducted somehow delicately.

Mr. Jenner. Up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be the circumstances of death.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an important official of the Czarist government. But he was a liberal—he had very liberal ideas. He, for instance, was——

Mr. Jenner. Now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean nothing. You tell us what you mean by that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Liberal means disliked anti-Semitism, the persecution of Jews.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Opposed to that. Disliked the oppression, some elements of oppression of the Czarist government.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Opposed to that. And preached constitutional government. During the war he was a member—being an official—member of the group which mobilized the Army, and all that.

Mr. Jenner. I have to get these things on record, so that somebody who is reading this, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now—I should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as you give it, with all my questions put to you just as I put them. And it will be printed as part of the report.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I can imagine what a volume it will be for the future Ph. D.'s to study. This is vague in my memory. I am saying what I vaguely remember, because, at that time, I was 5 years old. But I vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the Czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. He was an independent character, too. Finally he resigned his marshal of nobility position, and became a director of Nobel interests, of which his older brother was a president or chairman of the board—I don't know, I don't remember any more, in Baku, Russia. So we spent a little time there—in the oil fields. And then, of course, the revolution came.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1918, I guess. Then the revolution came. We were returned to Minsk.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In 1918 probably in St. Petersburg, or Moscow, one or the other—in both towns at some times. Because the headquarters of that Nobel enterprises were in Petersburg or Moscow. But I am not so sure about that. Anyway, we lived there for awhile.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a personal recollection of having lived in St. Petersburg and Moscow?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, very vague. I never expected you to ask me such questions. I really have to delve into my memory. It is not very difficult, because, you know, I like to write things. So I did write a story of my childhood, and it is called "Child of the Revolution," a memory of the child of the revolution. It was poorly written. I showed it to one of the editors, Scribners, I remember, and they wanted me to change it, and I abandoned the whole thing. Well, so I do have a little bit more recollection than I am supposed to have just by living so many years, because I did write it down.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was the province where my father was governor—not governor, but marshal of nobility of.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Province of Minsk. Surprisingly, that is where Lee Oswald lived. This is one of the reasons I was curious about his experiences, because I remember it very well. I remember that town very well.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. So from Leningrad, during the occupation by the Germans of Minsk, you see, we escaped from the Communists in Leningrad, and moved to Minsk back again, because it was German occupied.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in World War I. That was in 1918 or 1919. I don't remember exactly what year it was. That area was still occupied by the Germans. Anyway, there was famine in Moscow, or Leningrad, I don't remember which one—-there was famine there. So we escaped.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember what my brother was doing at the time. I think—I think just my father, mother, and myself. I think my brother was in the Naval Academy at the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to Minsk—whether we had a house, or I don't remember, but we had some possessions there. And we arrived there. And from then on we stayed there, although the Communists eventually occupied Minsk. Then my father was put in jail. I will make it short.

Mr. Jenner. Please—that is all right. I don't mind the shortness. But I want times. About when was your father put in jail?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. For being outspoken, I guess. I remember—the first time I don't remember, frankly. But the second time I remember very well, because this is very interesting. He was seized the first time. Then the Polish Army arrived—the Poles and the Russians were fighting at the time. And at the last moment the Communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. And we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the Communists, because many Jewish people he had helped became Communists, or halfway Communists. They helped him. And that is how eventually we were able to escape from Soviet Russia.

The first time he was released, the Poles arrived, we were in Poland again, that was a temporary occupation. And then the Poles retreated and the Russians172 arrived again. And here was the question to decide whether we should go with the Poles or stay in Russia. And my father decided to stay in Russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. He stayed in Minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the Soviet Government. I don't remember which one it was. I guess in the Department of Agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. That was his idea—what was going on in Russia was opposed by the huge estates. We had one, also, but not as big. So he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. And he had this appointment, adviser to the Minister of Agriculture—I don't remember what it was exactly. And we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months—although there was a famine there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Still in Minsk; yes—in probably 1920. And then one day they arrested him again. And here is what happened. I will show you what kind of a person he was. At the time they were installing museums in churches. And my father objected to that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; he was not religious. But he objected by principle to that. He was not very religious at all. But he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. We never had too much religion in the family. And he was put in jail. And started criticizing the Soviet Government. And, finally—I remember this more distinctly—because he was finally sentenced to life exile to Siberia. And that I will never forget about my father—an interesting thing.

Mr. Jenner. These are the Bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. This was a revolutionary period?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I remained on the street making my own living somehow. My mother runs around the country trying to save my father. He is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called Vieliki Ustug in Siberia. This is as far as I remember the name of it.

And why was he sentenced for that—because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "What kind of government do you suggest for Soviet Russia?" And he said, fool as he was, "Constitutional monarchy," and that was it. That was his sentence—just because of that. Because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. My father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. He became very sick in jail. And these friends—the friends whom he had helped previously——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. In this particular case I don't remember their names. They were a couple of Jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally—they themselves were his doctors. They finally made the position with the Soviet Government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to Siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to Siberia, with the family, with all of us. And that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once—a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to Siberia.

And they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. And that is where he made his preparations for escape. And the same people, helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. But we crossed the border of Poland.

173 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My father. But my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. We all had this typhoid fever.

Mr. Jenner. At this point I might ask you—the name was Von Mohrenschildt at this particular time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—because I am more or less of a French orientation. And when I became an American citizen, I did not like the prefix "Von" which is German to the average person. And so we used "De" which is equally used in Sweden or in the Baltic States, interchangeably. And my uncle, who was here in the States for quite some time, and died here——

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you about him. You might as well give his full name.

Mr. Jenner. I will digress for a moment. Ferdinand De Mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the Russian Embassy here in Washington?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he was First Secretary of the Czarist Embassy, the last Czarist Embassy here in Washington. He married McAdoo's daughter.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir; no—he died. They were never divorced. She was divorced many times—remarried and divorced many times. But he died—I guess in 1925 or 1924.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't refer to myself as that, you know. But supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the Baltic nobility.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Through the Swedish source, from the time of Queen Christina. But my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. Neither did Ferdinand, I think.

Mr. Jenner. You are an interesting person, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, to many people. They have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were—had a title of some kind. I just wanted to explain that of record.

174 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. But, frankly, I don't—I think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. My ex-wife loved the idea.

Mr. Jenner. Am I correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother Dimitri?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Stayed in Wilno until I graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. A little bit more than a high school. That must have been 1929. Not constantly over there, but that is where our home was.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In Wilno he fought for the—tried to regain back our estate. It happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In Russia—which became Poland—in Czarist Russia, but which became Poland. Right on the border. It became through the partition of Czarist Russia, it became part of Poland. And this estate was in Poliesie. That is a wooded area of Poland, right on the border.

Well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. It was not large, but it was—well, maybe 5,000 acres; 5,000 or 6,000 acres.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My father was able to regain it. He did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. So we were not completely penniless refugees.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly.

Now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in 1929.

Mr. Jenner. Your mother is deceased. Did you live with your father during this period?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. Then I tried to—I did not like the country very much, Poland. We became Polish citizens, but I didn't particularly feel at home there. I learned the language. But it didn't feel like home. And I decided to go to study in Belgium, and asked for permission to go to Belgium, and the Polish Government refused me the permission because I was close to the military age. So I volunteered for the Polish Army.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I volunteered for the Polish Army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in Grudziondz. Well, it was a famous military academy in Poland where the Polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. And I was able to get to it because I volunteered—I was 18 years old. I graduated from there.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. May I ask you this; Would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if I may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the Polish Army?

175 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. There were some exceptions. Most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, Polish aristocracy, and German aristocracy, who happened to have estates in Poland. But we had some exceptions. But they did not survive later on. They were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. You had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was—now, this I forgot to mention about my father. He started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the Czarist government. So he was always—always liked to teach.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Back to Russia for a moment; yes. So now his profession as a government official was no good—neither his experience as a director of Nobel Enterprises was not much good. So he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the Russian gymnasium.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. High school, in Wilno. You know—where the immigrants send their children. And he was director of it for a number of years. I don't remember what exact years. I guess until 1929 or 1930. I didn't go to the same school, by the way. I went to a different school.

Mr. Jenner. You mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; in order not to be under my father's—not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in Poland, by the way—did not have the rights in Poland to go to a university in Poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the Russian language. So I went to a Polish school, had to learn the Polish language, and finally graduated.

Mr. Jenner. Did I mention Polish as one of the languages of which you have a command?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was 4 years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, I think, a year and a half.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I reached candidate officer—sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. The highest you can get after you get from the military academy.

Mr. Jenner. Just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Except that you are not completely a soldier—you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. You are about to be commissioned a lieutenant.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no. It was just a reserve. You see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went to school, then to Belgium—I was free now to go to school to Belgium. And I went to Institut Superieur de Commerce a Anvers.

Mr. Jenner. The translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, Antwerp, Belgium. When attending the institution of higher commercial studies in Antwerp, you returned to Poland, did you, from time to time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Just to come there when they called you, and go with the Army—summer maneuvers, summer exercises. I think I did that twice. I don't recall.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By the way, which was a commission—that is very hard to explain to you. It is like midshipman in the Navy. That is what it is. And since I did not pursue the military career, I remained a candidate officer.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I was not disqualified for any reason. On the contrary, I was the best actually, if I may say so.

Mr. Jenner. Let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here—your brother, Dimitri, 11 years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the Navy.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he joined the naval academy when I think he was 11 or 12 years old. That is what they have out there. They start very young. Do you want a little bit of the background of my brother?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is really a ferocious anti-Communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. He was in the Russian Imperial Navy, became a midshipman.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he was a midshipman in 1918, in Sebastopol, which is the headquarters there.

Mr. Jenner. Well, his records at the passport office give his birth as March 29, 1902, and he gives his birth in his biographical material at Dartmouth and Yale.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. He was a midshipman in 1918, which is like graduation from Annapolis here.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. All the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time—even when you are 12 years old, you are a member of the navy. It is not like here.

Mr. Jenner. Did he participate in World War I, in the late 1918 period of fighting.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall where. He joined anti-Communist groups, was finally caught by the Communists, and sentenced to death in a town called Smolensk.

Here we were coming back to our—we were already in Minsk at the time, that was not too far. My brother was in Smolensk in jail, in a Communist jail. My father also in jail. And I was the only one at liberty. And my mother was running around trying to help both of them.

My brother was sentenced to be shot. He was put to the wall and they told him, "You will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two—he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices.

Now, I do not recall; Yes, yes. The Polish Government exchanged him against a Communist. They made an exchange. They had some Communist prisoners,177 and my brother was with a group of Poles who were prisoners of the Communists, and the Poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends. And I remember who it is. It was a Catholic bishop in Poland.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lozinski. He was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He immediately—it looks vague. I think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. My information is that he emigrated to the United States on the 20th of August 1920.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. You see, there was an intermediate year. The Poles had occupied part of Russia. I think we saw him just before he departed for the United States. The Poles offered him to join the Navy in Poland, and he decided to go to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. But we have you now in Belgium, attending the university.

Mr. Jenner. Had your brother had a higher education while he was still in Russia? That is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. My brother was a midshipman in the Navy. He had only the naval academy education, and even shortened—short naval academy education. I don't know what you would compare it to. Certainly better than high school here.

Mr. Jenner. And did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in Antwerp?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I received what you called—master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. You get immediately a master's degree—a license—in finance and in maritime transportation—another year of maritime transportation.

Mr. Jenner. This is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in Europe?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is a mixture of some engineering and commercial—not exactly like Harvard School of Business Administration. It lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation.

Mr. Jenner. There is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you continued on—after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was the subject of the economic influence of the United States on Latin America.

Mr. Jenner. Had you already acquired, through that, an interest in Latin America?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have you—let's see, this is about 5 years—you are about——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the United States. We had not seen each other since 1920. He was studying—he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that is my uncle. My brother married a lady by the name of Betty Cartright Hooker.

Mr. Jenner. That is right. And you were in partnership at one time with Edward Hooker, were you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She is in New York now. I have her address some place. She lives between New York and Paris.

Mr. Jenner. Did you engage in some kind of a business in Europe during this period?

Mr. Jenner. How did you manage that while you—inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. It helped me to make ends meet.

Mr. Jenner. And that was devoted to what—readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very little funds—maybe a $1,000, $2,000, from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. She was an excellent saleswoman.

Mr. Jenner. Had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think that was the money that helped me to start—when I was 21 years old I received a couple of thousand dollars—although I did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. Or maybe more than that—maybe $4,000 or $5,000. I really don't recall.

179 Mr. Jenner. There is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $10,000.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was a very successful operation, this business, Sigurd.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the States, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. They sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress—let's face it—and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I brought some money with me. I brought some money with me—something like $10,000, I would say.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if I may say so. In New York in those days, in 1938. I even started selling perfumes, I remember, for a company called Chevalier Garde.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; just purely as a salesman. I even sold some materials for Shumaker and Company.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think as soon as I arrived we went to spend the summer on Long Island, Belport, Long Island.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mrs. Bouvier is Jacqueline Kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. She was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. I met him, also. We were very close friends. We saw each other every day. I met Jackie then, when she was a little girl. Her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. We were also very close friends of Jack Bouvier's sister, and his father.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally—Mrs. Auchincloss, and occasionally correspond.

Well, then, I realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the State, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of Nobel Enterprises, which is a large oil concern in Russia, which was eventually expropriated and confiscated, and I decided to come and try to work for an oil company. I arrived in Texas.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, sir. Before we get there—because that skips some things—one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I even didn't pass my broker's examination. I tried to get an insurance broker's license. I studied to be an insurance broker in the State of New York. And I failed dismally that examination. So that was the end of my insurance business.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have you up to the advent of World War II, which was—this is about 1941.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. But before that I was in Texas and worked for Humble Oil Co.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way I could fit into the oil industry.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went by bus—to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark—Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.

I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember—with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way—a very well paid job, but very tough—at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.

Mr. Jenner. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I have to tell you—I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do is181 get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.

Mr. Jenner. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as—I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.—probably—over—to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up—something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both—resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean—drill wells, get a lease—drill a well, find some money to drill that well.

Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States—to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself—I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then—yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939—since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just—I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there—I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.

And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people—I never arrived in Poland.

I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.

Mr. Jenner. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?

Mr. Jenner. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian—although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—which is Facts—what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by—this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them—by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already—Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly—by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.

183 So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long—a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.

The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.

Mr. Jenner. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be—what do you call it—a descendant——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.

Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.

Mr. Jenner. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity, and——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about—it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No—just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.

Mr. Jenner. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The King of Bananas of Brazil—his name will come back to me. Dr.—I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.

Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even—even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know—because this girl really was the love of my life—Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love—I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Around Corpus Christi—really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.

But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.

On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.

Mr. Jenner. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise—you186 and this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.

Mr. Jenner. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is my Polish passport. So—they never said anything about sketching. I thought they were from some comedy actors.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe some other government service. But I have the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed me all the way from New York—all the way from New York.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That I do not recall exactly.

Mr. Jenner. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint officially.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months—until they expelled me from Mexico.

Mr. Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection—that you made a statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with Lilia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I did something. I invested some money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to—the stock was going to go up, which I did. I made some nice money out of that investment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 months with this lady?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on Avenue De—the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. Paseo de la reforma.

Mr. Jenner. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some difficulty in Mexico, did you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. We were going to get married.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think by the time she got to Mexico—she already got a Mexican divorce. I am sure she did. She was already free.

Mr. Jenner. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the United States?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I went into hiding for a few days, because some Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of those Mexicans who tried to help me.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a good friend of mine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They said, "That is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of Mexico."

Mr. Jenner. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there at the time was a young MacArthur boy.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips together. The son of John MacArthur.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a chair car. But, believe me, they are very often——

Mr. Jenner. Was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I was working on that book. I sold that interest in the sugar company—that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about—and then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.

Mr. Jenner. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I fell in love with each other and got married.

Mr. Jenner. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce took place—well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never married her?

189 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back to Mexico.

Mr. Jenner. The records indicate that you made some effort here in Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.

Mr. Jenner. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the 16th of June 1943?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall your daughter's birthday—it was on Christmas Day, was it not?

Mr. Jenner. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did you do some painting?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I did a lot of painting—a whole tremendous file of paintings in Mexico.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military installation—the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican types—I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally one evening——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we walked back a190 couple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We left the car right there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If you see him in Chicago—I will write to him again; and I hope to see him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice Institute, and University of Texas.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in that neighborhood?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Well, you see—bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. But you see the main reason I actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did not have—which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided to go——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that a man without the education in that particular field—I did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I probably will be. But really that was—he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice—of all my friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who are very wealthy.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Entered the University of Texas, and School of Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor—major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in American schools.

Mr. Jenner. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you serve as an instructor——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; an instructor in French, to make some additional money.

Mr. Jenner. When did you complete your work at the University of Texas—all of your studies?

Mr. Jenner. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the University of Texas, did you enter into business?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But eventually fought with the vice president.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that I should resign and also——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you see.

It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated in Venezuela.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in Venezuela?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed a very short time, and went to Texas again.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.

Mr. Jenner. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two of you assisting the chairman?

192 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I was the only one in the office. Later on—we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones actually working for the committee. I don't remember.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains. It still is.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; Gibson—James Gibson; yes. But he was not in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the Standard Oil of California.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from California who sold oil well pumps.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the various oil companies?

Mr. Jenner. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field, is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was our main job, you know.

Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3½ years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to Colorado—without being married.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time. She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.

And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last boomtown193 in America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.

Mr. Jenner. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to Aspen, did you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. But then I became chairman.

Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, no; about that time. I would say—I didn't take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.

Mr. Jenner. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you?

Mr. Jenner. Was there something about your spending too much time over at Aspen, and not being——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I think so. I don't think—you may call it I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the Engineering Committee."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are interested in my character—is that it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.

Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I don't think I ever had any complaint against me.

Mr. Jenner. You were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed.

Mr. Jenner. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.

194 Mr. Jenner. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. Now, your employment with the Rangely Oil Field Committee terminated after you became a citizen, did it not?

Mr. Jenner. And does that refresh your recollection—it occurred about 6 months later?

Mr. Jenner. When your employment in the Rangely Oil Field Committee terminated, what did you do?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Then I realized that I could not remain married to Phyllis, because she was a girl of—who needed money, who needed a good way of life, needed luxury—she was used to luxury. And I asked her to go back to her parents, to New York, and that I will try to make a success out of—I decided to go on my own as a consultant—that I should try to make a success out of the consulting business.

But I just should do it by myself, without her being present. And so I moved to Denver, Colo., gave up that establishment in Aspen, and got some help from my friends, and with very little money I started my own consulting firm.

Mr. Jenner. In the meantime, did the—was the marriage to Phyllis Washington terminated?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the court in Denver. She was gone. I returned in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; to see if we could patch up things. We became very good friends with the other side of her family, the Wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of mine. Bill Wasserman is a banker in New York, used to be ambassador to Australia during the Roosevelt administration, I think—or to New Zealand.

And, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of her—because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in Europe, they had also their own difficulties.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; they decided we better forget about this marriage. We remained very fond of each other. But we finally came to an agreement to have a divorce. And I filed a suit for divorce.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In a court in Denver, Colo., but I do not recall the date.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No children. We were married in Grand Junction, Colo. And the divorce was entered—the reason was desertion, which was actually true, because she did not come back to me. She stayed in New York, or195 eventually—she drank, also, an awful lot. Today she is an alcoholic—poor girl.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. First of all, as just an ordinary consultant. I got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil company in Denver.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Jimmy Donahue. And he facilitated by giving his office, the secretary and so on. Because it is rather expensive to start on your own.

But very soon afterwards I started getting consulting jobs—doing evaluations on the wells and things like that. And one night—this will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business—one night I was driving through Oklahoma, tired as hell, and I said to myself, by God, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, I am just a flunky here for all these big operators—I should go in the oil business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, which was interesting to me. And then I recalled that my ex-nephew, Eddie Hooker, in New York, asked me to go in business with him. He had visited me in Colorado and was very much interested in the work I had done. I gave him a telephone call from some place in Oklahoma.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. "I am tired of that Merrill Lynch, Fenner and Beane."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a pleasant relationship. We are still very good friends.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I did buying of the leases, doing the drilling, and helped him in New York, also, to raise money.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Sometimes—we opened an office in New York, a small office. He was in New York most of the time. I was in Denver.

Our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. But our second well was a producer. We made some production. But never anything big.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Eventually I returned to Texas from Denver, because I had always retained some good friends in Texas, and they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first venture—suggested that, "George, you will do better in Texas, because Wyoming is too expensive"—a well costs $200,000 or $300,000 in Wyoming, you know—in Wyoming or Colorado.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you were in partnership with Mr. Hooker, your field work and discovery work was in Wyoming and Colorado, is that correct?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. We started by drilling our first well in Wyoming, operating from Denver. And we had—we were snowbound there, we paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. To make the story short, our first venture was quite a failure. One of the reasons we finally split partnership with Eddie Hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. He comes from a very wealthy family. And he wanted the oil business to make millions.

My reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and eventually build up some production.

196 On our first venture in Wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a well—they would do it. Naturally, I told Ed we should do that instead of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. Well, he said if they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual story.

I was a little more conservative—I said better sell out and try to find something less risky.

He said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away—which was true—we had a huge block, of 12,000 acres, something like that.

Well, from then on, the next venture was in Texas, and we drilled quite a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Abilene, Tex., we had the headquarters—that was the center of the small size independent operators at the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Our partnership was broken up after I married Miss Sharples. It was, frankly, a personal thing.

Mr. Jenner. I think this is a good time to stop, because that is the next phase I want to get into. We can go to lunch.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

Before we start on the next phase of your life, I would like to go back a minute to your father.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what happened to your father, with particular reference to World War II?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was living in Wilno, the same town that I went to school in, during the war, and I arranged for his visa to come to the United States at the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was in this country, and I knew that—this was before the outbreak of the war. I arranged for the visa to come to America, and he did not take advantage of it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Before September 1939. And instead of that, you know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. Maybe he was too old, decided not to come to the United States. And then there was the German invasion of Poland and the Russian invasion on the other, and he happened to be in the Russian part of Poland, and naturally went into hiding.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You mean Russian part in the sense that the Russians invaded Poland?

197 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He became engulfed in advance of the Russian Army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence of life exile to Siberia against him. And at that time the Germans and the Russians were not at war yet, so the Russians and the Germans made an agreement that all the people of German or Baltic or Swedish origin could go to Germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to a special German commission set up for that effect in various towns.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Declare themselves that they they are willing to go and live in Germany, instead of living in Russia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right—declare allegiance to the German Government, and declare themselves Volkdeutsche, which means of Germanic origin. Russia had many millions of people of that type, an enormous German colony. So the Germans did it in order to get all those Germans from the Volga Province into their own country. And all the other people, like my father. And he declared himself willing to go to Germany, and the Germans took him into Germany. He would rather be with the Germans than with the Communists, and spent the rest of his life——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very strongly anti-Communist——exceedingly strongly anti-Communist, almost fanatically so. Naturally, he had the sentence against him. And then he spent the rest of his life in Germany and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we know—some air raid hit that place where he lived.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't know the town, but it is an old castle in Oldenburg. It is near the Danish border. My brother is going to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the time to go and see that place. But he is in Europe now, and he will go and see the place where he was buried.

Eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters through some German friends who stayed there with him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I take it he was—we can at least fairly say that he had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the German cause?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I remember we exchanged letters with him during the war through some friends in Argentina and in Japan, before Japan got into the war. My father wrote me a letter in which he said, "George, the Nazis are no good, and Germany is going to lose the war, but I prefer to be in Germany than in Soviet Russia. At least I am free and nobody is bothering me."

It was the policy of the Germans to protect the people who had some positions in Czarist Russia. But he never became pro-Nazi. He was too clear thinking for that. He liked the Germans all right, but he was not pro-Nazi. But he hated Communism. That was his life's hatred.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have you back in New York City—this is when we went to lunch—around 1953—1952, 1953.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; still active. I think it was in 1952—because I was not married—we still had the partnership. I was visiting Ed Hooker in New York at that particular time, and through him I met my next wife, my last wife.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was just graduating from the medical school at the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University. That was her last year. And she was late in her studies. She was 28 or 29 years old at that time. So she had missed a couple of years, you see. And we fell in love with each other and decided to get married.

198 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The Sharples family is from Philadelphia, Philadelphia Quakers. He is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business. And I had dealings with his nephew for many years.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Butler, Samuel Butler, Jr. He runs the oil end of Mr. Sharples' operations. And they had a small interest in Rangely Field. That is how I got acquainted with Mr. Butler.

So we knew about each other before—my wife's father, and so on and so forth—and—the daughter asked his advice, whether she should marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all right—obviously had sufficient good information from Butler about me. Butler was my best man at the wedding.

There were several ushers. He was one of the ushers. I don't remember who was the best man. My brother was the best man. He was one of ushers. So we got married.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Socially prominent. But not too interested in society, because they are Quakers, you know. But my wife is interested——

Mr. Jenner. Some of the people apparently—voluntarily—they know her with that nickname—Didi.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. We got married, I think, after her graduation immediately in the Unitarian Church in Chestnut Hills.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A suburb of Philadelphia. And she moved to Dallas, and I moved to Dallas, also, from Abilene, where I used to live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to take her residence in the hospital in Dallas. She was a resident physician——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. But it is Baylor Hospital, in Dallas. It is not the same as Baylor University. It is called Baylor Hospital.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And she stayed there as a resident. I worked very often in my office in Dallas, instead of Abilene, and continued my partnership with Ed Hooker. But there developed a tremendous animosity between Ed Hooker's wife and my wife, Didi.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Was an ex-model, very attractive girl, Marion. And probably my wife snubbed her or something. She didn't come from such a prominent family.

Anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. And Ed told me, "George, you are a fool to marry this girl—she is nuts."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that is my ex-wife, Didi Sharples. She is very high strung—she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous breakdowns while going to medical school. I don't know if it is interesting for you, all those details.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think not as to that. I am interested, though—she came to Dallas with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She came to Dallas to live with me. We had an apartment first. Then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm outside of Dallas. And then she had—we had two children, Sergei, and a girl, Nadejeda,199 whom we called Nadya because the name is very difficult. It is my aunt's name, and Sergei is my father's name.

Mr. Jenner. I think you were about to tell me some differences arose, you thought, between Mr. Hooker's wife and your wife.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it was more or less, I would say, a social problem and personal dislike. Ed is very much devoted to his wife. He told me one day, "We cannot continue this partnership in such unpleasant circumstances, and I think we should break our partnership and sell out what we have." We had some oil properties and we sold it out and divided the proceeds.

Oh, yes—also, Ed was dissatisfied that I moved away from the oilfield—another reason we broke our partnership. Because I was staying in the oilfields before that all the time. But now I moved to Dallas, and I could not be right in the center of the oil activity, according to him. It turned out to be that this actually was much better for the oil business, to be in Dallas than to be in Abilene.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, because we are more or less in the center of things than just in a small hick town, you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. At the same time about, when we were breaking this partnership, my wife's uncle, Col. Edward J. Walz, from Philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we formed a partnership just about the same time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Col. Edward J. Walz, this was my wife's uncle, Miss Sharples' uncle—much younger than his—than her mother, but a man of substance, from Philadelphia—with whom we developed friendly relationship. He liked me and I liked him. And we decided to form a partnership, and we called this partnership Waldem Oil Co.—with the idea of doing the same thing I did with Ed Hooker—that I would do the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the business in Philadelphia.

We had several very successful dealings together. On our first drilling venture we found oil. I kept producing that little field for quite some time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Post field, in Texas—a small part of this field belonged to us, and we kept on producing. We did other operations in the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that.

But we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. We did small things. It was a small operation. But we always made money together.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That, I think, was in 1957, I guess, or 1956. We were married for 5 years.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1957, yes; it turned out to be that both of our children had cystic fibrosis—it is a terrible illness of genetic nature. The children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet.

Now, my ex-wife and I started a foundation, National Foundation for Cystic Fibrosis in Dallas, of which Jacqueline Kennedy was the honorary chairman.

Now, my ex-wife says that I didn't have much to do with this foundation, this Cystic Fibrosis Foundation, but actually I did, because I collected most of the200 money from my Dallas friends. It started with very little—we started with $10,000 or $20,000, and now it is a $2 million foundation, with headquarters in New York. Last year I was chairman of this foundation in Dallas for the first public subscription to our Cystic Fibrosis Fund for the Dallas children, and we got $25,000.

By the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a marriage have a very poor chance to survive. She wanted more children. She was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. The little girl is still alive. She lives in Philadelphia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her mother is not actually practicing but she is in charge of the Cystic Fibrosis Research Institute in Philadelphia, she is a trustee of Temple University.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Dr. Robert Denton. He is the doctor who treated our children for cystic fibrosis. At present he is a professor of pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the University of Pennsylvania.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to go into the litigation. There was some litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with respect to some trust?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Established for Sergei, for our son. Now, I had to contribute, according to the divorce, $125 a month for the support of the children, which I did, and she put that money in a trust fund. She did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to accept any more contribution of money from me. I objected on my side to the fact that I was removed away—that the children were very far away from me. They were living in Boston at the time, and I encountered constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the children. Well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after Sergei died, a long time afterwards, I received a notification that we inherited, my ex-wife and I—we inherited this trust fund.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, Mr. Sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the children's support—whatever money she could put in it. Anyway, it was a small trust fund of $24,000, which eventually was split up between my ex-wife and myself—about $12,000 each. There was a litigation in regard to that, but I don't know if it is interesting for you.

Mr. Jenner. No—I have the complaints. Your ex-wife—Dr. Denton lives in Philadelphia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She doesn't do the actual research. She is more or less running the administration end of a second foundation. She was eventually asked to leave the National Cystic Fibrosis Foundation which we had formed together in Dallas, and which became this national foundation.

She developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself—I don't know for sure—the other trustees say they asked her to resign. She says she was forced to resign. And she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in Philadelphia which is much smaller, and I think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. And she201 is running the administrative end of it. She is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I used to. Right now I have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, Nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The daughter, yes. And she thinks that by living in Texas her health will improve. Now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite—that if she lives in Texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. So we had rather bitter litigation last year as to—I tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons—mainly, I think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. And the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. But the court decided that—we went into such bitter fighting, that I stopped this litigation in the middle, and I said, "I am going to Haiti anyway. Let's leave things as they are for a year. I am not going to see Nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that I get a medical report from her every 4 months." And the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nadya, my little girl. She is under psychiatric treatment—because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that your former wife—there had been some children born of her present marriage?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in Philadelphia, didn't she?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. I don't know what you call it in legal terms. The lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. We decided to sell our house and settle our accounts.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Property settlement. And I think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, Morris Jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, upon your divorce from Wynne, or Didi, Sharples, did you remain in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I stayed in Dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I started taking more and more foreign jobs. In 1956 I took a job in Haiti for a private—for some private individuals connected with Sinclair Oil Company.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In 1956—just before our divorce, I think. We were already separated. Then we must have been divorced the end of 1956.

Sorry—too many marriages, too many divorces. So I started taking more and more foreign jobs. And, also, in my relationship with Mr. Sharples, because—my ex-wife's father—I did some foreign work for him, mainly in Mexico. He had some foreign exploitation in Mexico, some oil operations in Mexico. Anyway, I started getting a lot of foreign jobs—maybe jobs in Nigeria.

Mr. Jenner. I want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, all in all, I visited and I did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions—it was in Nigeria, in Togoland, in Ghana, in France—I may have forgotten with some other countries where202 I did not have to go, but I did some work right there in Dallas—examined the geological work and made suggestions.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, in Cuba—I traveled in Cuba before Castro, during the Batista days. The ex-president of Pantitec Oil Co. formed the Cuban-Venezuela Oil Co., a development—a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in Cuba. He almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. This was during the Batista days. He invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. And so I visited the fields there, and his office—that type of job that I had from time to time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. For No. 1—for Charmex. Then Cuban Venezuelan Trust—that is Warren Smith Co. Then the Three States Oil and Gas Co. in Dallas.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; then Lehman Trading Corp. in New York. I may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. But they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine—either from Texas or from New York. And then in 1957 those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. I was contacted by Core Lab in Dallas in regard to a job in Yugoslavia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was for ICA—a job for ICA and for the Yugoslav Government.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. International Cooperation Administration here in Washington—which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to Yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the—I don't know—some kind of government deal. Under this——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I found him because he was a geophysicist. In other words, I did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. The ICA needed two men. I looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to Yugoslavia, and found George Mitchell in Dallas, and eventually both of us went there.

The Yugoslavian Government paid my living expenses there, and the ICA paid my salary.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you left on that venture, as I recall it, somewhere around February of 1957, wasn't it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think it was very early in 1957, because, 8 months, and I returned in October.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1957; yes. All the reports were made—quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates—some of them went to ICA, some went to the Yugoslavian Government. I think some went to the Bureau of Mines here.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't have the slightest idea. They checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before I went there. Because I had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. And I noticed that after I got back from Yugoslavia, they were still checking me—after I got back from Yugoslavia they were still checking on me. One character came to see some of my friends in Dallas and said, "Well, George De Mohrenschildt is about to go to Yugoslavia. Do you think he is all right?" He said, "But he is already back from Yugoslavia."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I met her in Dallas. And while we were in Yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in Yugoslavia for awhile. But she was actually by profession a designer for a Dallas firm of I. Clark, and she went to Europe on a business trip for I. Clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in Yugoslavia for a couple of weeks.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think she was divorced. She was getting a divorce.

Mr. Jenner. Where had you met her? Were you living at the Stoneleigh Hotel in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was living there, also. And she had this separate apartment. I was living on the Maple Terrace. She was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I met my present wife's ex-husband. His name was Robert LeGon. We developed a liking for each other. I remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if I promise that I would marry her. A very charming fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. We both had experiences in the past. We decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. And we eventually did.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the name of God we were married, because I remember we went on a trip to Mexico and decided that here we are married—in the name of God, we are married. Then, later on, we put it in the name of——

Mr. Jenner. After your wife had become divorced from her former husband? His name was Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That name was a discovery for me, also. In the States they used the name of Le Gon.

Mr. Jenner. When you and your wife married—by the way, her given name is Jeanne, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. When you and she married, did you continue to live at the Stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, we kept on living at the Stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in University Park, on Thackery. We took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. Actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. She came from France to live with us.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned her daughter. Now, you make reference to your daughter. That is your daughter Alexandra?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She had been—she was brought up by her aunt in Arizona, because her mother——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nancy Clark—and eventually she became Nancy Tilton III. Anyway——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She lives in Valle Verde Ranch, near Tucson, Ariz. And that is where my daughter was brought up. She was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, Mr. Clark.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Her mother, more or less, left her with—it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a European way—that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt—my daughter's aunt. I guess in English you would call it a cousin. We call it an aunt—whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. Anyway, she calls her "Aunt" also. And she spent practically all her childhood there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very frequently I went to visit her there, as often as I could. And Mrs. Clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. So we had a litigation there. I objected to her adoption.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. She lived away from her, and married somebody else. She was not interested in the daughter.

I objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of Alexandra because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. And Alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away from her. We had a lawsuit—not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it—a custody case.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, that was in Palm Beach—because Nancy took Alexandra with her to Palm Beach, and tried to keep her away from us. And we caught her there in Palm Beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I mean either with me or with the mother—with the mother who became Mrs.—what a complication—Mrs. Brandel—my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter Alexandra, became Mrs. Brandel. Her husband is a Dutchman who lives in France and in Italy, and is a television producer.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And myself—asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. And she asked to stay with me. But I was not married yet. This was in the time between the marriages. I was not married. I could not offer her a home—although I wanted her to be with me.

And that is what she did. She went to France, stayed with her mother, I contributed to the support. She stayed there for, I think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in Dallas later on.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, and married a boy from Dallas by the name of Gary Taylor. She is divorced from him now.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe I am wrong on that. Maybe they have a divided custody. But the child right now, according to my information, is with Gary Taylor and with Gary's mother, Mrs. Taylor.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I keep in touch with Mrs. Taylor, find out what is happening to the child.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mrs. Taylor, Gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Some secretarial school. And from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because I was already gone. I get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in New York right now.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not as far as I know. I am trying to get in touch with her right now.

The last address is in some small town in New York, working in a hospital. She always wanted to be a nurse. Supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now.

While we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her original name was Jeanne LeGon, the same as my wife's.

My wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for Eleanor Powell, and named her daughter's middle name after Eleanor Powell. She was also an admirer of Eleanor Roosevelt, but that is beside the point.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Her daughter changed her name from Jeanne to Christiana, not to be confused with her mother. And the name is hard to pronounce. She changed it legally, herself, to Christiana LeGon.

Later on, I understand she changed it to Christiana Bogoiavlensky—whatever I hear about it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Ragnar Kearton is a young man from California, from San Diego, Calif., whose mother I know, and whose father I don't know, but I understand he is vice president of Lockheed Aircraft Corp. And Ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to London School of Economics, but never graduated. He is a freelance writer, painter. To make a living I understand he works for Lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They changed their name to—according to them—to make it known the fact that her father's name was Bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the Russian heritage. So that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, Robert LeGon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they—his name was then Robert Bogoiavlensky?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I understand that when they came from China, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to Le Gon.

I have always known her as Jeanne LeGon, my wife. She is still carrying that name professionally. She is well known—she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. This is all hearsay, of course, because I was not particularly——

207 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I understand of her family—she also has Russian background. Her father was a director of the Far Eastern Railroad in China, and she was born in China and lived there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in Manchuria. Lived there until 1938. She came to the United States the same year I did.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We lived right next to each other in New York, and didn't know each other—right next door.

Mr. Jenner. Now, your wife's daughter, Christiana, she is where, at the present time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Right now she is in Copenhagen, Denmark, with her husband.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was in Alaska with him. They lived both in Anchorage and in Valdez. That is where the earthquake took place—in both places.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Professional—he is—my wife will tell you more about him, although I know him pretty well, also, and I like him. He is of ultra conservative tendencies politically.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In other words, he is for Senator Goldwater, 100 percent. His father is a friend of Goldwater's. And——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Likes to discuss it, but I don't know whether he has any actual political—I mean whether he actually works to have Goldwater elected. But he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him.

I don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for Goldwater. He is too much concentrated on himself.

Mr. Jenner. Does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, Wynne Sharples, were married on the 7th of April 1951?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, that is correct—5 years. I have the date clearly in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. This will be all right to state to you on the record. Of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is not true, because I have been drunk many208 times—not every day, but many, many times. Not under the table, but I have drunk more than I should.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but—I am just not interested in politics.

Mr. Jenner. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.

Mr. Jenner. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there we mean—or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A temporary one, yes—which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.

Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free. But——

Mr. Jenner. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?

Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.

It is a book which says that—which is available any place here—which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies—could exist eventually.

But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat—you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.

While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?

Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?

Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.

Mr. Jenner. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas—saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Occasionally—after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists—they were not people active politically—they were not big shots.

With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.

Mr. Jenner. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support——

Mr. Jenner. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack210 while he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."

Mr. Jenner. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.

For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism—hell, let them live.

Mr. Jenner. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?

Mr. Jenner. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.

And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for the International——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes—I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.

John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for me211 to use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries—especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?

I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"

It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture—form a corporation.

I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.

I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."

So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.

And while there—he travels around Africa all the time—he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.

Mr. Jenner. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.

Mr. Jenner. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through—I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.

Mr. Jenner. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything—was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah,212 because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.

Mr. Jenner. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?

Mr. Jenner. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.

Mr. Jenner. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish Army—$5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.

Mr. Jenner. What I am driving at—whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime—have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.

Mr. Jenner. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?

Mr. Jenner. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas—I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture—the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.

We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.

I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off—your trip down into Mexico and the213 Central American countries—tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.

And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.

You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years—I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.

But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very—practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that—I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.

And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.

And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.

We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This was—that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the—it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.

There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have—they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.

By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.

And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers—Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador—El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.

And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?

Mr. Jenner. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy—somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east—through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was—I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960—one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president—the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.

By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract—which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.

And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group—the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"

I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."

He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.

And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it—they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you215 appear with Mikoyan"—and the Texas Eastern people—they are very conservative Texas people—if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president—he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American—he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.

It was full of security officers—the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.

Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."

And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected—because she was right there in that group. So she said—he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."

She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I declined to go—purely for business reasons—because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries—wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing to do with it—except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country—you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Everywhere—Guatemala City, San Salvador—not Honduras, but in San Jose—everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there—could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.

216 And then we left Guatemala City—2 days later—we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we took—I took—we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We sent them back—we carried—all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have—600 pages—day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.

Mr. Jenner. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day—that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it—I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet—three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us—we did carry money with us.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Local in Dallas—and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.

217 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of—we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia—also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia—a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.

We went to visit him—I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.

Mr. Jenner. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now—in which you are now engaged?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter—I still have it—the letter from the Minister of Finance—that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.

Mr. Jenner. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member—I am not interested. I am too busy.

Mr. Jenner. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.

I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.

I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever participated in the affairs of—whether you have been a member of—irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say—any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.

You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.

Mr. Jenner. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen—if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know—I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We landed in—we came by Lykes—Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place—very close to the same neighborhood we used to live—6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working—because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip—including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.

Now, I should repeat again—I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.

Mr. Jenner. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract—to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.

So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started219 working in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type—in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.

Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.

He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.

Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia—she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.

Mr. Jenner. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Either one of them—the one who is in the advertising business.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.

Mr. Jenner. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin—of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, then the priest must know them all—the Russian priest.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.

Mr. Jenner. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of—he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans—they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others—some services are in Russian also.

221 Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.

Mr. Jenner. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?

Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?

Mr. Jenner. Now, at least during the time—I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.

Mr. Jenner. It has been said or reported by—from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services—for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people—constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally—on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.

Mr. Jenner. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?

Mr. Jenner. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two—maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the jungle.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?

222 Mr. Jenner. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it is interesting to see people's reaction—if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. But generally people like to be asked provocative questions and to be given provocative answers. I think so, at least.

Mr. Jenner. There has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a little more serious-minded?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is right. That I am. Well, I don't believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. Might as well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent.

Mr. Jenner. I am trying to paint a picture here, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, of the milieu or background in Dallas when you first met the Oswalds, what kind of a community it was.

Mr. Jenner. How you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, and what part your wife played in it. I gather that the community of which you speak, the people of Russian derivation, were close, you saw a good deal of them?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is close because there are not many. It is not like New York—although in New York I know also thousands of Russians, and in Philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. But mainly in Dallas there are only maybe, as you know, 30 families, maybe 25 families, all in all. So they are a little bit closer together. And a very pleasant relationship—because they are all good people—and with a few exceptions I think we all like each other, and used to get along very well, until Oswald appeared on the horizon.

I want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than coming by any suggestion from me. Would you try and put in your own words this Russian community as it was when Oswald and Marina came to the Dallas area, Fort Worth, in June of 1962—without involving them now. What was the milieu and the background of the situation?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, a purely social group, a little bit divided by classes. You see what I mean?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In other words, people with good education and a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a question of money as a question of good education, and of background. And Bouhe comes from an excellent family. This Gali Clark, of course, comes from a No. 1223 family of Russia. Paul Raigorodsky comes from an excellent family, excellent education. Those were the people with whom we were very close.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. He has had many, many, many years—many more than all of us, in the oil business.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We all knew him. Because there are so few people in this geological field. And he is an old acquaintance of mine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I just met him once or twice. I know his wife better.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think she is of Armenian, or Russian and Armenian, extraction.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Already a long time ago. Oh, yes; I met him through another Russian, through ballerina, a Russian ballerina, another one who lived there—Natasha Krosofska, a famous ballerina.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is her stepmother—the stepmother of the ballerina.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; also from a typical old guard family—really hundred percent. To show you the atmosphere—who does not believe there are any new houses built in Russia today? She said in her opinion the Russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever—only the old palaces from the czarist days.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The really backward type old guard people. I am glad that you made such a distinction there.

Mr. Jenner. Is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to believe that if an American went to Russia and came back with a Russian wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some connections of some kind with the Communists in order to get a Russian wife out of Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is an interesting question. They might believe anything, because they think that the Russians are such devils that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, among the Russian emigre group in Dallas, did you ever know of anybody that you even thought might be a Communist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; no leanings even. I am probably the most leftest of them all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. Not only do I not regard—I just am not. But I am probably the only one who has been in the Communist country, because of my job with ICA, and also, I forgot to tell you that I had visited Poland in 1958, after my job with ICA. I went to visit Poland, as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. I just went there for a period of 10 days, to Warsaw, and then went to Sweden from there, and then returned back to the States.

224 Mr. Jenner. Give me—I am going to pose a hypothetical to you. Let us assume that a Russian couple would come to Dallas, let us say right now—no friends, not know anybody in Dallas. What would normally happen? As soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the community—the Russian group became acquainted with the fact that there was a Russian couple?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Well, aside from us—the most curious would be George Bouhe, because he actually met us first—the first in Dallas—he told us about Oswald, as far as I remember. Because he is curious by nature. He wants to know what is going on. He wants to convert them to the Greek Orthodox Church, and so on.

Mr. Jenner. Would there be any effort to help these people become acquainted throughout the community?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If they—if that couple came from Soviet Russia, from the Soviet Union, you mean?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, the old guard would not do anything. They would be curious, but—they might meet them and very soon afterwards they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them would not fit with their beliefs. And we know that Soviet Russia is a going concern. To them it is not, it does not exist. It just isn't there.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when did you first meet either Marina—I will put it this way: When did you first hear——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. As far as I remember, George Bouhe, who is a close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there is an interesting couple in Fort Worth, and that the Clarks know them already—Max Clark and Gali—they know them already. Somebody read about them in the paper—I don't know exactly, I don't remember the exact wording any more—that somebody read about them in the paper, maybe Mr. Gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery.

Mr. Jenner. At this time were you aware that there had been an American who had gone to the Soviet Union and attempted to defect to the Soviet Union?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never heard about them, never heard anything about them before.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Same thing. I think we were both together when this conversation took place.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I could not tell you the date. I think in the summer of 1962.

Mr. Jenner. Now, give me your best recollection of what George Bouhe said to you about the Oswalds on that occasion.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He said rather a complimentary account of them—I don't think he met them yet. I think he just heard about them.

Mr. Jenner. It is your recollection he had just heard about them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent family—supposedly. And he is a fellow who got disappointed in Soviet Russia and returned to the United States, and that met with George Bouhe's approval—somebody who did that.

225 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think he even knew that he had been an ex-Marine, and all that. I don't think he knew anything about that.

Mr. Jenner. When George Bouhe spoke to you then—have you exhausted your recollections as to the conversation right at that point?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think about it. I just remember that I got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a woman she is.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; not particularly. No; because—but it is nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am always curious to find somebody better looking than horrible. We are talking about serious things.

Mr. Jenner. Well, it is part of the atmosphere, Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I still do, I hope. Until the day I die. But anyway, it was not really so. It was just an interesting couple who were—it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from Soviet Russia that had arrived, because we all picture Soviet Russian women like a commando—big, fat women, working in a brick factory.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Again, now, my recollections are a little bit vague on that.

I tried, both my wife and I, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the Oswalds. But they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. So please do not take it for sure how I first met them.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My best recollection—I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth. I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the Clarks knew them already, Max and Gali Clark, because they were from Fort Worth, you see.

And I think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. Somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lawrence Orlov—he is an American, but he has a Russian name for some reason—maybe his great-grandfather came from Russia.

And to my best recollection, Lawrence and I were on some business in Fort Worth, and I told him let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in Fort Worth and knocked at the door, and here was Marina and the baby. Oswald was not there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I said a few words in Russian, I said we are friends of George Bouhe. I think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. I think he had already been in—he helps everybody. He has been helping her especially. And so the introduction was fine. And I found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of English, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings.

226 Mr. Jenner. Now we are interested in a couple of things. You found that she knew substantially no English?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No English at all at that time. I think she knew maybe—I remember that I asked her, "How do you buy things in the store," and she said, "I point with my finger and I can say 'yes' and 'no'." That is all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was a shack, near Sears Roebuck, as far as I remember—near that area. I don't know if you went down there. A little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. Very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. The road even was not paved.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that—completely meaningless conversation.

And I think Lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand what I was saying. He doesn't know Russian.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I said, "Well, I would like to meet your husband." She said he should be back from work soon. She asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, I think—she had some sherry or something in the house. This is the best of my recollection.

And Lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. And then after a little while, Oswald, Lee appeared.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I said, "I'm a friend of George Bouhe, I want to see how you are getting along."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he spoke fluent Russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in Russian.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Remarkable—for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. But he loved the language. He loved to speak it. He preferred to speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English to Russian.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think the first time. I don't think the first time I said anything at all, you know. Possibly he told me that he had been in Minsk, and that got me curious, because I had lived in Minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of Minsk. He got me curious, you know.

But I do not recall for sure whether it was the first time I met him or the second time or the third time. I don't remember. I think it was a very short meeting the first time, because Lawrence Orlov was there, and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "Well, we will see you," and possibly Marina had mentioned that her baby needed—that she needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not been inoculated. Possibly that was that time. But I am not so sure.

Mr. Jenner. Her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given to the child?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very much so. It was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like Khrushchev, the child—looked like an undergrown Khrushchev. I always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like Khrushchev.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to prod you, because I want you to tell the story in your own words.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with Lawrence, and I remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. But he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Give me your impression of him at that time—your first impression.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. I could never get mad at this fellow.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Sometimes he was obnoxious. I don't know. I had a liking for him. I always had a liking for him. There was something charming about him, there was some—I don't know. I just liked the guy—that is all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You know, he was very humble—with me he was very humble. If somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, absolutely blossomed. If you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. That was more or less the reason that I think he liked me very much.

Well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between Marina and Lee, I assume?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I already noticed then that the couple—that they were not getting along, right away.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, there was a strained relationship there. You could feel that. And, you know how it is—you can see that the couple—that they are not very happy. You could feel that. And he was not particularly nice with her. He didn't kiss her. It wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. He was just indifferent with her. He was more interested in talking to me than to her. That type of attitude.

Mr. Jenner. But you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say?

Mr. Jenner. You drew him into conversation or situations—especially when you asked something about him?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; exactly. I think that is his main characteristic. He wanted people to be interested in him, not in Marina. And she remained quite often in the background.

Later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; with me he has never been arrogant. Even when we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, and Marina away from him later—you know that?

Mr. Jenner. Now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things develop. And how attitudes changed, and everything.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, then we started getting reports, you know, from George Bouhe and the Clarks about them. We didn't see them very often.

Mr. Jenner. Please, I don't want you to say you didn't see them very often. Maybe you didn't.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I don't remember. I don't remember. But I do know that we saw Marina very soon afterward, because either my wife went to get her or my daughter went to get her—I don't remember that any more—to take her to the hospital. Or maybe George Bouhe brought her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take her to the dental clinic. I think that was the next time that we saw Marina. Maybe a few days later.

She never lived with the Taylors. I think she spent 1 night with them, and that is all. She lived, I think—I think both of them lived somewhere in the neighborhood. I think she spent 1 night with my daughter, when she happened to be in Dallas for this medical care. And since they are about the age of my daughter—she is a little bit older, but about the same age—I don't remember how it happened, but either I or my wife introduced Marina to my daughter, and also Lee. This is very vague in my mind, what happened there.

Mr. Jenner. Well, your recollection is that within a few days George Bouhe brought Marina to your home?

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of having your wife take Marina to get some dental care?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is right in the center of Dallas, near the Slaughter Hospital—what a name for a hospital. It is the name of the man who founded it.

Well, the dental clinic is right there next door. They give you dental care gratis, or almost for nothing.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I mean small amounts of money, you know, either for injections or something like that—because she didn't have anything.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Completely destitute—because Lee was at the time losing his job. I don't recall when he told me that—maybe already at the first meeting. He told me that he was about to lose his job. He was working somewhere in Fort Worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't know the name of it. This company was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. At least that was his version. Maybe he was fired.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Now, this I am not so sure. She told Marina where to go, and told her, "You have to give the baby such and such injections." And this I remember well—that she didn't do it. She didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. She is that type of a girl—very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. Loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. And what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in Russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, that eventually came—the second time or the third time that we met her—she told us the story of her life.

229 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Well, she said exactly her story of her life as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-Czarist officers. That her father had been a Czarist officer of some kind—you see what I mean? I don't remember whether it was navy or army. I don't recall it any more. That her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not treat her well. That they moved—I think they lived in Leningrad when she was a child. That eventually they moved to Minsk. I don't remember what her father's profession was.

One thing I remember—that one of her uncles was a big shot Government official, something like that—colonel or something like that. That I remember she told me.

And then she went to this school of pharmacists, I think in Minsk, and graduated as a pharmacist. And one day she was walking by this river, which I also remember, in Minsk—the River Svisloch, which crosses the whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, and that is where the foreigners lived.

She said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. And that is where Lee Oswald lived. And eventually when they met—I remember they met at some dance—I think he was ill, something like that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. That is something I have a vague recollection of—that she took care of him, and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. But she said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she desired to live in, and she found out later on that Lee Oswald lived in that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream.

It sounds ridiculous, but that is how in Soviet Russia they dream of apartments rather than of people.

She told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as things go on.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Naturally I was talking to her and to him—I was trying to find out what is life of young people in Soviet Russia, what are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary you get, what amusements you get.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The salaries—she was getting an equivalent of $60 a month. He was getting something like $80 a month. That almost all of it had to be spent on food. The lodging was very cheap, almost nothing, because it was provided by the Government. That the food was rather plentiful, you could get it—but it was rather monotonous. Sometimes you could not get meat. They used to have discussions between them all the time—always they quarreled about—Lee Oswald and Marina always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the prices, what actually were the conditions of life in Soviet Russia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He liked Russia more than she did. I think he liked the conditions in Russia more than she did.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. He had a nice apartment. He said that people were interested in him, you see. That very often—he worked in a TV factory—the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the United States and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was that type of an individual who needed attention.

Marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than he did—as far as I remember. Yet she was not too critical, you see. It was a livable way of life.

Actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there than in Fort Worth. In other words, both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the United States. And I think that Lee more than Marina. Because as the time went on, Marina was getting more and more230 things from people—people like the Clarks, like ourselves, like George Bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. She had some hundred dresses.

When we carried them out to live with the Mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. It was all contributions from the various people, in Fort Worth and Dallas.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, mainly baby things. She had two cribs, I remember. She had a baby carriage.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did you do it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. In the meantime, Lee lost his job and George Bouhe told him that he should move to Dallas, he will give him an introduction at the Texas Employment Agency—he knew somebody there. And eventually he got a job through that Texas Employment Agency. I don't remember the name of the person who was there—some Texas lady whom George Bouhe knew.

And I told him that I would help him, too, to find a job, and even spoke to Sam Ballen about it, can he give him a job. And that is probably the only time that Sam Ballen met Oswald. I told him to go to Mr. Ballen's office—he has a reproduction business, a very large one in Texas.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Reproduction, electric log reproduction service. When they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. And also, they print catalogs and things like that in his office. It is quite a large business that he has—with branch offices all over Texas, and even in Denver, Colorado.

I said, "Why don't you see if you can give him a job?" And I remember that Sam saw Lee Oswald and found him very interesting.

I remember I saw him the next day and said, "How did you like Lee Oswald?" and he said, "Nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting fellow."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He didn't have a job for him. And at the same time he received a job at some other outfit—I forgot the name of it—the traffic outfit, and they moved from Fort Worth to Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. You said you entered and took Marina out of the house, and the baby?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was a little bit later on—when he already moved to Dallas, he already had the job. But now I am trying to recall who moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas, and I think that was Gary Taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and Alex, my daughter. I think they both drove to Fort Worth.

I told them to do so—"Go to Fort Worth and help them, they have no car, they have no money—help them to move."

I think in the meantime Lee found a job at Jaggars, and was looking for a place to live, and found a place to live himself in Oak Cliff, this address which I don't remember now—the first address in Oak Cliff. He had two addresses. I forget the exact address. My wife will remember that.

A little before that, I think, because in September we started the campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of them—we were very busy on that. And I think it was in September that this campaign started.

231 Mr. Jenner. And before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, they had already moved to Dallas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They already moved to Dallas. We already had moved them—had taken Marina away from her husband. And she already had returned back to her husband.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you say you had already taken Marina away from her husband. Tell us how that occurred.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the meantime. George Bouhe became completely disgusted with Lee.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Because—I don't know exactly why—because he liked Marina very much.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He wanted—almost like a daughter, you see. To him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed help. And he really gave her money. He would give her $30, $40, I think, all at once.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not as far as I remember. Maybe a dollar—maybe 50 cents, something like that, for a bus. But never any money. I was in very difficult financial condition myself at that time. I don't think I gave her even 50 cents.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think maybe once or twice they came to the house to eat.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, George Bouhe started telling me that "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous."

And he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on.

George Bouhe gave me their address, as far as I remember, there in Oak Cliff, because I didn't move them—it was my daughter who moved them, I think.

So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think he was. Or maybe he wasn't. I just am not so sure. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But anyway, he appeared a little later.

Mr. Jenner. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She said, "He has been beating me." As if it was normal—not particularly appalled by this fact, but "He has been beating me", but she said "I fight him back also."

I do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or George Bouhe suggested it. I just don't recall how it happened. But it was because of his brutality to her. Possibly we had them in the house and discussed it, and I told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business"—that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me.

And then again George Bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. This is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. My wife probably maybe has a better recollection.

Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller. I think George Bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the Mellers than I was. Or maybe I called them. I don't remember exactly.

And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things."

And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any—"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave."

I felt very nervous about the whole situation—interfering in other people's affairs, after all.

I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway."

So after a little while he started—and I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual.

After a little while he helped me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely.

We have a big convertible car, and it was loaded—everything was taken out of that house. And we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, Lakeside, where the Mellers lived, and left her there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; that was it. The next day or a few days later—I don't remember exactly when—George Bouhe called me and said, "George, you should not give Lee the address of where Marina is." I think he came to see me about that—"because he is a dangerous character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening Marina on the telephone."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe I am confused a little bit. He knew George Bouhe's telephone number. He had been threatening him, and wanted to know the telephone number or the address of where Marina was. And this time my wife and I said we do not have the right not to let him know where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where Marina is.

Now, I do not recall how it happened—maybe Lee came over to our apartment in the evening. Anyway, we gave him the address of the Mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is to call ahead of time if he wants to see Marina, talk to her on the telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. And he was very happy about that—because I thought it was a fair thing for the fellow to do.

I repeat again—I liked the fellow, and I pitied him all the time. And this is—233if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take my wife away, and all the furniture, I would be mad as hell, too. I am surprised that he didn't do something worse.

I would not do it to anybody else. I just didn't consider him a dangerous person. I would not do it to somebody else.

Well, anyway, later on—this is from hearsay again, now—Marina moved to Declan Ford's house, because I think the Mellers got tired of her, and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house—the name you mentioned here before—a Russian girl who married an American—Thomas something.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I do not remember any more. I do not recall that. I thought she moved from the Mellers to Mrs. Ford, and from Mrs. Ford to the house of the Rays.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Something like that is in my mind—that she had already tried to go away from Lee, and stayed with Mrs. Hall. But I am not 100 percent sure.

I know that for the second time she was at Mrs. Hall's house, a little bit later.

The difficulties were this: She was—just incompatibility. They were annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. Having had many wives, I could see his point of view. She was annoying him all the time—"Why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, and they are just miserable flunkeys. She was annoying him all the time. Poor guy was going out of his mind.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We told her she should not annoy him—poor guy, he is doing his best. "Don't annoy him so much." And I think I mentioned before one annoying thing. She openly said he didn't see her physically—right in front of him. She said, "He sleeps with me just once a month, and I never get any satisfaction out of it." A rather crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative strangers, as we were.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I didn't blame Lee for giving her a good whack on the eye. Once it was all right. But he also exaggerated. I think the discussions were purely on that basis—purely on a material basis, and on a sexual basis, those two things—which are pretty important.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In politics they agreed more or less. She—they were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in Soviet Russia. I had that impression. They wanted a richer life. And as far as I remember, it was Marina who convinced Oswald to leave Soviet Russia, and go back to the United States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have a definite recollection of that. I do not recall in exact words how it was said. But either one of them told me that—that it was Marina who wanted to come to the States, and made him go to the—back to the United States Embassy, and ask for his passport. And I remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally took a train from Minsk to Moscow, because being a foreigner, he was not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. He did that illegally, and went to Moscow, and presented himself at the United States Embassy.

234 Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you that—even before he was married, that he had determined to return to the United States, and had taken some steps to do so?

Mr. Jenner. Your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell you that she desired to come to the United States, and she pressed him to do so?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new fellow in Minsk, a new American, so they were all interested in him. And then they lost interest in him eventually. So he became nothing again. So he got disgusted with it. And Marina told him, "Let's go back to the States, and you take me to the States." Now, what is not clear to me—and I never inquired into it, because I was not particularly interested—how she got the permission from the Soviet Government to leave. That I don't know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never discussed that. Somehow I was not interested to ask her that question. I should have, possibly.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The testimony of George S. De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then recollection that Marina did not live with your daughter, Alexandra, then Mrs. Gary Taylor.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That's right. I think she spent one night with them, but never lived with them, as far as I know.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe that's it. Now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, Marina testified—this question was put to her. "Did you have anything to do with the Gary Taylors?" "Answer: Yes; at one time when I had to visit the dentist in Dallas, and I lived in Fort Worth, I came to Dallas and I stayed with them for a couple of days."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She probably is right. I think she spent only one day. But I could not swear to that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I want to stimulate your recollection in another respect. Your daughter has made a statement that in September of 1962, "My father asked me to allow Marina Oswald and her child to reside with me at my then home at 1512 Fairmont Street, Dallas. My father explained that Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina had recently arrived in Dallas, Tex. They had no money and Lee Oswald was unemployed. He told me that while Marina resided with me, Lee Oswald would reside at the YMCA." Does that serve to refresh your recollection?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I frankly do not remember. I have the impression that I said "Help her as much as you can," but I do not recall saying that she would live with them. I do not think I would have imposed that on my daughter.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that testimony of Marina that she did live with your daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not know about it. Maybe they did, maybe they did not. I just do not recall that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I repeat again that they were out of my mind—completely—after the last time we saw them.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 1962, sure. They were out of my mind. I forgot the Oswalds.

May I say a few things here that I remember? As I told you before, we met the Oswalds through Bouhe, and then we talked about them to Max Clark, and again to Bouhe. And I asked Mr. Bouhe "Do you think it is safe for us to help Oswald?"

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I raised the question because he had been to Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see. And he could be right there watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, you see. And I distinctly remember, No. 1, that George Bouhe said that he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind Max Clark was in some way connected with the FBI, because he was chief of security at Convair—he had been a chief of security. And either George Bouhe or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You never ask people "Are you from the FBI?" And to me it is unimportant. But somehow in my mind I had this connected. And so my fears were alleviated, you see. I said, "Well, the guy seems to be OK." Now, I am not so clear about it, but I have the impression to have talked—to have asked about Lee Oswald also Mr. Moore, Walter Moore.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Walter Moore is the man who interviewed me on behalf of the Government after I came back from Yugoslavia—G. Walter Moore. He is a Government man—either FBI or Central Intelligence. A very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as I know—was some sort of an FBI man in Dallas. Many people consider him head of FBI in Dallas. Now, I don't know. Who does—you see. But he is a Government man in some capacity. He interviewed me and took my deposition on my stay in Yugoslavia, what I thought about the political situation there. And we became quite friendly after that. We saw each other from time to time, had lunch. There was a mutual interest there, because I think he was born in China and my wife was born in China. They had been to our house I think once or twice. I just found him a very interesting person. When I was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident occurred.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The last one—the travelogue. One day we left for Houston on a business trip, and I left all my typewritten pages, some 150 typewritten pages, in my closet. When I returned from the trip and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, supposedly, by anybody I noticed small marks on the pages—"No. 1" after five pages, "2"—small marks with a pencil, another five pages, No. 3, and so on and so forth.

I told my wife "Jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" She said, "Of course not." I said, "That's impossible." And I forgot it for a while.

In the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took photographs. And it was such a horrible idea that Jeanne and I just could not sleep all night. And the next morning we both of us went to see Walter Moore and told him, "Now, look what happened to us. Have you Government people"—and I think I asked him point blank, you know—"Have you FBI people looked through my book?" He said, "Do you consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? But we haven't." I said, "Can't you give me some protection against somebody who has?" He said, "Do you have any strong enemies?" I said, "Well, I possibly have. Everybody has enemies." But I never could figure out who it was. And it is still a mystery to me.

So I am not so sure whether I asked point blank Clark or Walter Moore236 about Oswald. I probably spoke to both of them about him. My recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of them said he is a harmless lunatic. Later on Max got disgusted with him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so forth. But by that time we already forgot Oswald—got Oswald out of your lives, you see. This is one point.

The second point is as you can see the whole of the Russian colony in Dallas were interested in Oswald one way or the other, because they represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, and could give them the latest information on what was going on. As I said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. The others were just curious. But this particular couple, Natasha and Igor Voshinin, refused to see them. And I insisted several times, "Why don't you see them? You love all the Russians. Why don't you meet Marina Oswald?" And she said, "We don't want to, and we have our reasons for not meeting them." And it kept on in my mind. I did not want to raise that question. But why didn't they want to meet them?

Mr. Jenner. Well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did not want to meet them?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not have the slightest idea. Maybe they knew something about Oswald, of some connection.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely firm. The only ones. Maybe they were just more recently arrived in the United States and they were not so secure like we were, you see. And possibly they were just alarmed of meeting somebody who just came from Soviet Russia.

Mr. Jenner. I think I will ask you at this point, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience and acquaintance here and in Europe, South America, West Indies—you have lived an extremely colorful life. You are acquainted to a greater or lesser degree with a great variety of people.

Mr. Jenner. Did there go through your mind speculations as to whether Oswald was an agent of anybody?

Mr. Jenner. Why? Before I put it that way—when you say "No," am I correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you concluded he was not an agent of anybody? Is that what you meant?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never thought even about it. I will tell you why I thought he never was—because he was too outspoken. He was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really—if he were an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. For instance, he showed me his—he discussed very freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Those memoirs I think are very sincere. They explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of a man.

Mr. Jenner. Before I show you any papers, I want you to finish this reasoning of yours.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he was not sophisticated, you see. He was a semieducated hillbilly. And you cannot take such a person seriously. All his opinions were crude, you see. But I thought at the time he was rather sincere.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface?

Mr. Jenner. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He did not understand the words—he just used them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability—that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, again, as I said, an unstable individual, mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. What government would give him any confidential work? No government would. Even the government of Ghana would not give him any job of any type.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, unstability—his life is an example of his instability. He switched allegiance from one country to another, and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, tried various jobs. But he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of adventure—like some other people would do in the United States, a new job is a new adventure, new opportunities. For him it was a gruesome deal. He hated his jobs. He switched all the time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was discharged from those jobs. Does that affect your opinion? That is, assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his jobs.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, frankly, if I—you always base your opinion on your own experience. If I had my own country since my childbirth, and my government, I would remain faithful to it for the rest of my life. He had a chance to be a marine. Here was a perfect life for him—this was my point of view. He was a man without education, in the Marines—why didn't he stay in the Marines all his life? You don't need a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier.

Mr. Jenner. That if he had an objective that he could have had, it would be to stay in the Marines and become a marine officer, and have a career in the Marines.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Well, instead of that he disliked it and switched to something else. I do not know the details of all his jobs, you see, but I certainly can evaluate people just by looking at them—because I have met so many people in my profession—you have to evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words.

Mr. Jenner. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as to his reliability in a different sense now—that is, whether he was reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack of control of himself?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, he was that. The fact that we took his238 wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and his threats to his wife.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, that he will beat the hell out of her. I think Marina told me that he threatened to kill her. It comes back to my mind, you see. You asked me yesterday a question, what actually precipitated us taking Marina and the little child away from Oswald.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. So what actually precipitated that? Something must have precipitated it. I cannot recall what it was. But now I seem to vaguely remember that Marina said that he would kill her, that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that is the reason we went out there and said—well, let's save that poor woman.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They were living then at the first address in Oak Cliff—Ruth Street, I think. It is a two-story brick building.

Mr. Jenner. Yesterday you adverted, I thought, to a concept that this man seemed—he responded when you would bring him into a conversation or situation.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very much so. And that is probably the reason that he was clinging to me. He was clinging to me. He would call me. He would try to be next to me—because, let's face it, I am a promotor and a salesman. So I know how to talk with people. I usually do not offend people's feelings. When I talk to people, I am interested in them. And he appreciated that in me. The other people considered him, well, he is just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I would like to go into that a moment. It gradually developed, did it, that the people in the Russian colony, their curiosity—they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at the outset.

Mr. Jenner. I take it you now suggest that after a while their interest in him waned?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Especially on the part of a scary individual, like George Bouhe—he was actually physically afraid of him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe. He was actually physically afraid of him. He told me, "I am scared of this man. He is a lunatic." I said, "Don't be scared of him. He is just as small as you are."

Mr. Jenner. Yes, but George Bouhe is a small man. You are a well-built, athletic, six foot-one. What did you weigh then?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. 185 pounds. I was not afraid of him, naturally, but George Bouhe was.

Mr. Jenner. And that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your personality as I observe you testifying.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark naturally was not afraid of him because Max Clark himself is an athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think. He just disliked him, and he said to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his wife. They invited him on some occasion—this I remember vaguely—they invited him at some occasion to come to their house. And Lee said, "Well, I will come if it is convenient to me." Imagine that—an answer of that type.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the Clarks, certainly Mr. Clark—I do not know too much about Mrs. Clark—but Mr. Clark is an educated man.

Mr. Jenner. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively uneducated, of limited capacity—I think this man had intelligence——

Mr. Jenner. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service record. What was your reaction to that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, Max invited him purely because his wife was Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while.

Mr. Jenner. You think Lee resented that, do you—that the interest was in Marina and not in Lee Oswald?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; definitely. Oh, that is an exceedingly important point, you know. Lee resented the interest that people would take in Marina. He wanted the interest concentrated on himself.

Mr. Jenner. And did he exhibit that in your home and at other gatherings where you saw him? Did he interrupt so that the attention might be drawn to him and away from her?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I understand what you mean. I am trying to think of a particular case that I would remember. I do not remember any particular case, but I always took him and considered him as an egocentric person. I do not remember any particular incident, but I knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. Not in any particular case, but always. And he would rather disregard what Marina would say. And this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to—for Marina to learn English, so she would stay completely in the background.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you opened that subject which I want to inquire of you about. Did you people in the Russian colony—did you consider that? Did you regard that as unusual?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Right from the very first day my wife told Marina, "You have to learn English, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day—you have to be able to support your child and yourself. You have to learn English and start immediately on it." We gave her some records to study English—not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of Shakespearian English, how to learn English, and they obviously still have those records.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We even gave them a phonograph, I think, a cheap phonograph, to play the records.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Toys for the baby, definitely. And I am sure that my wife had given some dresses. But she will remember better than I do. But we never gave them one cent of money. This I recall—never—and Lee would not take money, you see. I might have given him a little bit if he had240 asked. But he was very proud about it. He resented when people gave something to Marina. Marina would take anything, you see—she would take anything from 5¢ up to anything. And the more the better. But Lee did not want to take anything. He had a very proud attitude. That is one of the reasons I sort of liked him, because of that. He was not a beggar, not a sponger.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice over the period of time you knew him developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the Russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a greater or lesser degree?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. It was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could not succeed.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussions with him on that? How did you acquire this feeling?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was again through my understanding of human nature, rather than from direct conversation. From hearsay, rather. You see, No. 1, for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the Clarks, because they lived very well. It is an insult in his face, the house that the Clarks have—very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so forth. It is a slap in his face. This same thing that George Bouhe, a refugee, would give Marina $30 or $40 or a new baby crib, like that, like nothing. That was a slap in his face. The fact that I had a new convertible was a slap in his face. But he was not stupid enough just to say so. But you can feel that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And maybe George Bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him unintentionally with that.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that might be possible. George Bouhe—my impression of him is that he is a direct man.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe's intention was to take Marina away from Oswald very soon—not for himself, but to liberate her from Oswald. That is a fact.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he said, "We have to take this girl away from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take Marina and the child away from Oswald. We discussed all that with George Bouhe—to make her a little bit happier—maybe she will make another life for herself, and especially for the baby. I had lost my child, you know, just a year and a half before, or 2 years before. I am fond of babies. I wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a future.

Mr. Jenner. Did you discuss with Oswald this subject of Marina acquiring a greater facility in the command of the English language?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He said, "I don't want her to study English because I want to speak Russian to her, I will forget my Russian if I do not practice it every day." These are the words which I remember distinctly. And how many times I told him, "You have to let your wife learn English. This is a very egotistical attitude on your part."

Mr. Jenner. Did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in the Russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that is that she would return to Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never. That never occurred to me. I do not think that. Knowing Marina, she would never go back to Russia. She liked the United States. She liked the facilities of life here. Of course, you never know people. You cannot vouch for them. But that was our opinion. Maybe we simplified too much the matters. I do not know.

Mr. Jenner. Did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of 1963, latter part of January, and in February, in which there was any discussion, or you learned that Marina had made application to the Russian Embassy to return to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. And except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly unaware of it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Wholly unaware of it. Totally unaware of that, never heard of that. What we learned, at that period—that she had her child christened in the Greek Orthodox Church against Oswald's strong objections.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. I just heard that he objected to Marina doing it—and she took the child to church anyway and had the child christened. But I do not recall the circumstances. Somebody told me that.

Mr. Jenner. But you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to Russia in the spring or late winter of 1962—1963, that winter?

Mr. Jenner. And she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to make application to the Russian Embassy?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in that Russian colony, that community, that Oswald reached a point where he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I explained to you that I do not know whether he had a liking or not.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I treated him nicely. My wife treated them like human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. Because that is our way of treating poor people. My philosophy is—you may object to that—but my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice to the poor—as nice as I can. And they were very miserable, lost, penniless, mixed up. So as much as they both annoyed me, I did not show it to them because it is like insulting a beggar—you see what I mean.

Well, the other Russians obviously do not have such a charitable attitude. I do not think he has ever been, for instance—I am trying to think whether he had a resentment against all of the Russian colony or not. I would not say so. I do not know how was his attitude toward Mr. Gregory. I think they remained pretty—not close, but on speaking terms.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Because Mr. Gregory is a very fine person—very fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person.

Mr. Jenner. Your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a little bit—he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is his main—his makeup—trying to do something. One conversation I had with him—I asked him "Would you like to be a commissar in the United States," just teasing him. And he said—he sort of smiled—you could see that it was a delightful idea. To me it was a ridiculous question to ask. But he took me seriously. I laughed with the guy. Sometimes I would laugh, I would tease him. And it was amusing. But I tried not to offend him, because, after all, he was a human being. And in addition to that—in my case we had a point of contact which was the fact that he lived in Minsk, where I lived when I was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. And later on in life I lived in Poland, very close to that area. I was interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of conversation went on sometimes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things in which you were interested in the community, the countryside?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very much so. That was a likable characteristic he had. For instance, he liked animals. My dog was sort of friendly with him. When he would come, my dog would not bark. He liked walking. He told me that around Minsk he used to take long walks in the forest which I thought was very fine. Those are contacts that possibly brought a certain242 understanding between us. He spoke very interestingly about the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory.

Mr. Jenner. I want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because these things will come to you. What did he say about his work there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, he said that the work was all right, not too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. That later, after the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political meetings. He said he got bored to death. Every day he had to stay for an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. And this is a thing I thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points that is really hateful in a Communist country—the meetings after work. That I noticed through my own experience in Yugoslavia, that the engineers and the plain workers just hated that—a political meeting after working 8 hours. And Lee Oswald also resented that in Russia. And I thought it was a rather intelligent—-one of the intelligent remarks that he made. And he repeated that very often—that is the thing he hated in Russia; resented, rather than hated.

Well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew there which I do not recall anymore. But some of them nice, and some of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the United States, some of them unfriendly—that sort of vague recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you engage him in conversation respecting Communism as a political ideal and his reactions to that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He kept on repeating that he was not a Communist. I asked him point blank, "Are you a member of the Communist Party?" And he said no. He said, "I am a Marxist." Kept on repeating it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never frankly asked him to elaborate on that, because again, you know the word "Marxism" is very boring to me. Just the sound of that word is boring to me.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought Communism was?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, I was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, he could contribute absolutely nothing except for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary remark a person of his intelligence could understand. But when it comes to dialectic materialism, I do not want to hear that word again.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A few words I remember now. He said that while he was in Japan he saw tremendous injustice. By that he meant, I think, the poverty of the Japanese working class or the proletariat, as he called them, and the rich people in Japan. He said it was more visible than anywhere else. Now, I have never been in Japan, and I cannot vouch for that. But that is what he told me. And he also told me that he had some contacts with the Japanese Communists in Japan, and they—that got him interested to go and see what goes on in the Soviet Union.

Mr. Jenner. Just concentrate on this, please. Tell me everything you can now recall as to what he said about—you used the term, what we lawyers call a conclusion. You said he had some contacts with the Communists in Japan. Now, try and recall what he said or as near——

243 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I see what you mean. Since it was so removed from my interest, I did not insist. I just heard that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is all I recall—that he said, "I have met some Communists in Japan and they got me excited and interested, and that was one of my inducements in going to Soviet Russia, to see what goes on there."

Mr. Jenner. Did you form any opinion that this man, because of his meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his youth and up to the time he went into the Marines at least, that he had some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of thing?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Naturally. That's the whole point. I could understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in the whole world with dissatisfied people. If they are constructive, they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. The other try to form a revolutionary party. And he was one of them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men and women who have come from poverty?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes. You could not discuss it with Oswald because he knew it all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He always knew what the answer was. And possibly that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. After we found out what was going on in that town of Minsk, what was the situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. The rest of the time, the few times we saw Lee Oswald and Marina afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because we thought they were dying of boredom, you see—which Marina was.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She was, because he never would take her any place. That was the reason we invited them twice—once to a party at Declan Ford's—and that was, I think, a Christmas party. And another time a party at Everett Glover's, where I was showing my movie to the whole group. Because I thought they would be exceedingly—Marina was dying of boredom there.

Mr. Jenner. Let me get to that party at Declan Ford's. That was—was that a New Year's Day or New Year's Eve party?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I did not know that the party ran for a couple of days. But we arrived at 9 o'clock and left around 1 or 2, and it was still going strong.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of one day and did not end until well into the next day.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was not any of those wild parties. It was a very friendly, very good party.

Mr. Jenner. I'm not suggesting the party was wild. There is no intimation of that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No—on the contrary, they are very hospitable people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. And that is why we suggested, let's bring that miserable Marina and Oswald there, so they would meet some people. And I think if people continued doing that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Oh, boy, this is an interesting question. She244 loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. And you know, Oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. This is the reason—one of the reasons they fought so bitterly—because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "You are not going to do that", in a dictatorial way. So I would say, "Now, stop it, let her smoke." And then he would relax. But that is the type of person he was. But not in our presence—when we were away, Marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, I think. He refused to let her drink either. And she liked to have a drink. With all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never saw him drink. Maybe he would take a very little, but I never saw him drink more than half a glass—as far as I remember. I didn't pay too much attention. Maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. He was always tense. That guy was always under some kind of pressure.

Mr. Jenner. See if I can refresh your recollection a little about that party, the first of the parties. I am going to ask you about the second one as well in a moment.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember being present at that party Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. If they are the people whom I identify as he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of Russian origin—a friend of Mrs. Ford.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that's it—something like that. You know, in this group of the Russian emigres, there were two people who came from Soviet Russia—there were Mrs. Ford and this lady, an entirely different type of individual—the new blood. They were younger and they were brought up in Soviet Russia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They were so-called—what do you call—displaced persons, who were grabbed by the Germans and displaced in Germany, and then the American soldiers grabbed them and married them. Both of them were the same type. Very nice people, but they had a different background.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think I recall this person. He is a tall man with grayish hair.

245 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know them well. I probably would recognize them if I saw them.

Mr. Jenner. Were there some people by the name of Jackson at that party who had a very lavish house?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Jackson? I know a Jackson who has a very lavish house. He is a geologist also. But I do not recall seeing them at the party.

Mr. Jenner. There is some testimony that in the early morning hours the party adjourned to the Jackson's house.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. I met them, I think, only once—I met her twice or three times. I recall her pretty well. But I do not recall him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is the person I could not identify. I don't know who she is.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember her. She was married to some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from Soviet Russia—Dymitruk. He came to ask me for a job, her husband. He came to ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; her ex-husband. I understand she is a very nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and that she left him. That is my recollection.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Having asked previously either myself or my wife—having asked Mrs. Ford would she mind having the Oswalds, because they seemed to be bored to death, especially Marina seemed to be bored to death. And she said yes.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think we did. And this is the reason why—because I think they left the child in our house while they came to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, Mrs. Frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which she did.

Mr. Jenner. What impression did you have as to how the people at the party reacted to Marina and to Oswald—take them separately.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I did not pay any attention. I left them to their own devices. I spoke to various people. I thought I had done my duty by bringing them along. What really impressed me that particular night was an extraordinary interest which developed between this Japanese girl, Yaeko—I don't remember her last name—but I already had given that impression of mine at the American Embassy so they could check on that. She was a Japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, I think, at Neiman-Marcus in Dallas, and was brought into Dallas from Japan by some people in the cotton business to take care of their babies.

Now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. She eventually left that couple—that is all hearsay, you see, and became sort of a girl friend of a Russian musician who lives in Dallas by the name of Lev Aronson. And I do not recall whether he was at the party or not. But Yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest in each other—Oswald and246 Yaeko. They just went on sight and started talking and talking and talking. I thought that was understandable because Oswald had been in Japan, you see. But the interest was so overwhelming that Marina objected, and became very jealous. She told us, either that night or later, that Oswald got her telephone number, she noticed that Oswald got this girl's telephone number. And once or twice later on she told us that she has the impression that Oswald is carrying on something with this girl. Now, this is hearsay again. But——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something on. That is what she told us. But nothing definite.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any incidents in which—at that party—in which people——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. My wife will tell you more about this Yaeko incident, because she knows a little bit better.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And she is more on the gossipy side. I'm always happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl—it does not matter who they are.

Mr. Jenner. Were there any incidents that you recall in which members at that party were talking with Marina and Oswald interrupted?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I do not recall, because I did not speak to them. I just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people to talk to.

Mr. Jenner. And the contacts you had with Marina and Lee, was there ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in Russia when they were there were chary about talking with Lee because they were afraid he might be an agent of some kind?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is a question I have to try to think a little bit about.

I have a vague recollection that either Lee or Marina did tell me the people were afraid of him, and I think that was probably Oswald that told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. So I thought that was very understandable, because you know the Communists are scared—not the Communists, but the people in Russia are scared to talk to foreigners.

We had an incident ourselves when we went to Mexico, to a Russian exhibit, to a Russian Fair, and tried to speak to an architect there in charge of the architectural exhibit. This was a lady architect, a charming woman. We spoke to her for about 5 minutes, and then she disappeared, and you could not find her any more. She ran away from us. She was scared of us. That is the usual thing.

So I did not pay particular attention to that fact. If people were scared of talking to Oswald, it was understandable.

Mr. Jenner. Did that ever arise, discussions as to why—possibly affecting his desire to return to the United States?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. The most important answer I think I got from Oswald—and that was one of the reasons we liked him and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of Soviet Russia—is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and I, "Why did you leave Soviet Russia", and he said very sincerely, "Because I did not not find what I was looking for."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A Utopia. I knew what he was looking for—Utopia. And that does not exist any place.

Mr. Jenner. This man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in this world.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He could not find it in the States, he could not find it any place.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly. He could find it in himself, in a false image of grandeur that he built in himself. But at the time that we knew him that was not so obvious. Now you can see that, as a possible murderer of the President247 of the United States, he must have been unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice any tendencies—this may be rationalization, of course, now that you are thinking back.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I would call him a stage below definite paranoia, which means a highly neurotic individual. But even an M.D. would not give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of that nature?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I did not know anything about his background, you see. I did not know anything about his previous background, except that he had been in the Marine Corps, that he came from a poor family, that he had lived in New Orleans. That is all I knew about him.

Mr. Jenner. I wanted to ask you about that. Was your discussion with him as to his background, let us say, if I may use a conclusion myself, superficial?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very superficial, because I was not—I know that type of person, I know his background. I know the people in New Orleans. I lived there. I know people in Texas of the very low category. I know the way they live. I could see clearly what type of background he had. I did not have to ask him questions. And he mentioned that while living in New Orleans, and very poorly, he started going to the public library to read the Marxist books, all by himself. That he was not induced by anybody. I said, "Who told you to read the Marxist books"—that interested me. And he said, "Nobody, I went by myself. I started studying it all by myself."

Mr. Jenner. He read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did not understand them?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I would not understand them. I would not bother reading them. I never read any Marxist books, because I know what they contain.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I could read with a critical mind. But that is something that does not interest me. And I know that they are very difficult. I know that they are written in a difficult manner, that they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring.

Mr. Jenner. There is some intimation that at this party Oswald had said several times that he liked Russia and he might go back. Did you overhear any of that?

Mr. Jenner. And from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed that notion to you, that he might go back?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall exactly, but something comes to my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go back to Russia.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. More or less—"After all, what is my life in Russia"—I remember he said that, that his life in Russia was actually better than here. But Marina never said that.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember some people at that party by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Daniel F. Sullivan of Lafayette, La., a divisional geologist for Continental Oil Co.?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at that party about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

248 Mr. Jenner. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was broke, and that it could not be that way, because Russia would not permit one of its agents to be that penniless?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is an intelligent estimation, but I certainly have not heard that.

Mr. Jenner. Any discussion there or speculation that there was something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little trouble in getting Marina out of Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is a question that always was sort of a big question mark to me. Not being interested, I did not probe them. But it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible for somebody to take a citizen of Soviet Russia so easily out of the country. But I have known of other examples of it being done.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time while you knew the Oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When he was in Russia, no; I don't remember anything about that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely I remember that he might be left handed but I could not recall.

Mr. Jenner. You wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the other on it?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with him his experiences in Russia with respect to hunting?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day—which probably you will ask me later on—Easter, I think, when my wife saw his gun. I didn't know he was interested. I didn't know he had the gun. I didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. I didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression.

Mr. Jenner. Now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover that fully in the record.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. On Neely I think one block from the previous place they used to live.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And Jeanne told me that day, "Let's go and take a rabbit for Oswald's baby."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but I think it was on the holiday. Maybe my wife will remember the date exactly. And so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up—I think they were asleep. They were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and Lee Oswald came down undressed, half undressed you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. And it was a very short visit, you know. We just gave the rabbit to the baby and I was talking to Lee while Jeanne was talking to Marina about something which is immaterial which I do not recall right now, and all of a sudden——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?"

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He said "I go out and do target shooting. I like target shooting." So out of the pure, really jokingly I told him "Are you then the guy who took a pot shot at General Walker?" And he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at General Walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and I knew that Oswald disliked General Walker, you see. So I took a chance and I asked him this question, you see, and I can clearly see his face, you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic—not sarcastic, made a peculiar face.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Had an effect on him. But naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. That is the whole incident. I remember after we were leaving, Marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us. They have nice roses downstairs and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Excuse me, before I forget I wanted to insist on one thing which I meant to tell you before that. What was the main thing that I really liked about Oswald, you see. You asked me that question before.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was ferociously, maybe too much so, for integration, advocate of integration. He said that it was hurting him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. I was very strongly opposed to segregation, and I am sometimes very violent on that subject, because it hurts me that I live in Texas you know and I do not have colored friends. I cannot afford to have colored friends, you see. It annoys me. It hurts me. I am ashamed of myself. And I try to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such that it is hard to keep their friendship in Texas, you know. So I know what the situation is. On that point Oswald and I agreed. And250 this is another reason why Oswald and Bouhe fought so bitterly, because Bouhe is a segregationist. He is an old-guard segregationist that he learned from the Texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. And I had quite a few fights with him about that, with Bouhe. And possibly his animosity, Oswald's animosity to Bouhe and vice versa were based on that, you see, although I am not so sure about it. But I assumed that that was one of the reasons.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, the Walker incident.

Mr. Jenner. Was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt came to see the Oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "Lee, how is it possible that you missed?"

Mr. Jenner. You have now given me your full recollection of that entire rifle incident?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. How could I have—my recollections are vague, of course, but how could I have said that when I didn't know that he had a gun you see. I was standing there and then Jeanne told us or Marina, you know, the incident just as I have described it, that here is a gun, you see. I remember very distinctly saying, "Did you take the potshot at General Walker?"

The same meaning you know, "Did you miss him," about the same meaning? I didn't want him to shoot Walker. I don't go to that extent you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Anybody. I didn't want him to shoot anybody. But if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see.

Mr. Jenner. You knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for General Walker?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I definitely knew that, either from some conversations we had on General Walker, you know—this was the period of General Walker's, you know, big showoff, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the Oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely positive that personally I didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife.

Mr. Jenner. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no discussion. That ended the conversation, the remark about Walker, ended the conversation. There was a silence after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very, very uncomfortable, but I still did not believe that he did it, you see. It was frankly a stupid joke on my part. As the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. But you know my wife will tell you probably that I have a very stupid, bad sense of humor, she says, you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Possibly. She says so also, my wife usually says that I like to tease people.

251 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is perfectly all right if somebody teases me.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should do something about it. We should organize—there are some interesting people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And also we should put—we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good eating." And that is how the idea originated.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited—we decided to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.

Mr. Jenner. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or presented in a provocative fashion?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus there, some very provocative discussions.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home or restaurant that you supplied the meal?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. Those are the people who are252 fighting their own country because they were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that occurred.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how to drive and I was quite surprised——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him "Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an automobile?" I remember saying.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have the impression that he said that he didn't know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.

Mr. Jenner. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely isolated where they were living, you see.

Mr. Jenner. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You see this occurred probably in the first period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him that disgusted us.

We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Except for the party, and then Christmas came and253 we thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again to meet Everett Glover.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think actually there were two parties that we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.

Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They never used the pool because I don't think Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to that Christmas party did you enter their home?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we got them. Whether I did or my wife did—I do not recall how it was done.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have some vague recollection of some kind of celebration but I do not recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he did or didn't believe in Christmas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.

Mr. Jenner. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and 12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.

Mr. Jenner. There was some testimony to the effect—I want you to pause before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.

Mr. Jenner. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and stayed all day?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or 4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really my mind was on something else, you see.

Mr. Jenner. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to the254 effect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by bus."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By bus? My wife will remember that better. Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing business, my business you know.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I came to their home for short visits, and sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? Goodbye."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that better than I do.

Mr. Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.

Mr. Jenner. But they might have been there all day long when you weren't around.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They might have been, might have been. My wife will remember that, you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because they were hungry.

Mr. Jenner. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that they were fed?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that it was——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It is something to that effect, you know, and it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy you see. She wouldn't help anybody.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you know, around the house.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was not discussed you know.

He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina disliked the mother.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any exact words, but that is the impression I had.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?

255 Mr. Jenner. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met the mother and had a reaction to her?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I assumed that you knew.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will remember more than I do.

Mr. Jenner. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect to his brother?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with his brother.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President Nixon?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.

Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some discussions with him?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, full of energy, full of good ideas."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is definitely a point there, you know. He did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It was only in the papers that I read after the assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.

Mr. Jenner. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this dishonorable discharge or not.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.

Mr. Jenner. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party at his home?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.

Mr. Jenner. And had been invited to your home several times because she was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with Lee Oswald?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with Everett Glover, this couple.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think he declined that.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; at that time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett Glover's whose names I do not recall.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who lived right next door to us, to that party.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a different party, but I have the impression that she was there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in some sort of classical music singing.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent some time singing in the madrigal.

Mr. Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody who was present?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. There were quite a lot of people there, but if you mention the names I will say yes or no.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think Oswald mentioned to me—Glover mentioned to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my recollection.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor Oswald were interested.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. They were not the outdoor-type people who would appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At least that was my impression.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think so. I think after the movie there was quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he definitely was the center of attention that night.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, weren't there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and attractive person.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald attending that party?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.

Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?

Mr. Jenner. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall either. I think they possibly have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, Everett brought them.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in particular the former government in Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual group259 of people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.

Mr. Jenner. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language.

Mr. Jenner. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time.

But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of Marina's, you see. I was not.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see.

Mr. Jenner. You made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. She would scratch him also.

I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine.

260 Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.

I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor—he worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex Kleinlerer. That is the name.

Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It was a friendly visit to say how are you.

Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?

Mr. Jenner. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the Mellers?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to the Mellers.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why Marina was there?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.

Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that Marina should leave their place.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is history for me, you see.

Mr. Jenner. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in your mind also.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. Hall—yes; I remember what we were talking about.

261 Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I had a vague impression—I don't remember because I do not discuss religion too often—that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly against religion as far as I remember.

Mr. Jenner. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms.

Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. Not all of them.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the United States.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."

This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.

Mr. Jenner. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to read that he had written.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for publication.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was just a description262 of life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly written, not particularly well.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.

Mr. Jenner. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I would have remembered something like that, you see. Again another sentence I do not recall.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Do you want me to glance through that? It does not look like the same document.

Mr. Jenner. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.

I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," "Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," "Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective Farms and Schools, Vacations."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have attracted my attention.

Mr. Jenner. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.

Mr. Jenner. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in Russia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This whole division looks familiar to me. As I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me.

I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see?

263 But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker.

Mr. Jenner. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is something that is much more familiar to me because I was interested in the town itself.

Mr. Jenner. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was something that interested me because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just described them. What happened to this street and that street?

He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper I saw.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention to the city than I paid to something else.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that.

Mr. Jenner. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have already identified, the first of which is at page 304.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.

Mr. Jenner. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page 312. It is a short one.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. It does not look familiar to me. As I said before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his life.

Mr. Jenner. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance through those, please?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, not264 the publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the TV factory.

Mr. Jenner. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be closer.

If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

Mr. Jenner. As I recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was that early in your acquaintance with the Oswalds, you approached Sam Ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection in that regard, Mr. Ballen says his recollection is that he first met Lee in December 1962 or January 1963 at your home.

Mr. Jenner. And he was aware that you had approached Mr. Ballen's wife and other people to assist the Oswalds, and also to have them out socially.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I don't remember whether I asked the Ballens to invite them, but I did ask some other people to invite them, because they were so lonesome. And maybe fortunately for them, they refused.

I remember I asked a physicist to invite them in Dallas, and they just refused. He said, "I don't know those people. I don't want to have anything to do with them."

Mr. Jenner. His recollection is about 10 days after he met them at your home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or might be helpful in his obtaining a job.

Does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned yesterday occurred probably in December 1962 or January 1963—that is, the event regarding your effort to induce Mr. Ballen?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—it should be probably at that time, because—I had the impression that it was earlier than that—when he was moving from Fort Worth to Dallas, at the very beginning. I still have the impression. Because that is where I was interested, to help them, you see.

So I have the impression that maybe he confused the time. It seems to me that I asked him at the very beginning when I met the Oswalds, when he lost his first job in Fort Worth and was trying to move to Dallas—that was the time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I don't know the name of that company, but it was some welding outfit.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the period when Marina stayed at the Fords, in November?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That was the time when we took Marina and the child away from Lee and put her in the house of Mellers, and then the Mellers asked Mrs. Ford to take her. I think that was the time.

And then, later on, the Fords asked Mrs. Ray to take Marina. She moved265 from one place to another—three times, as far as I remember, she changed domiciles.

Mr. Jenner. You remember this event you related yesterday, when you took Marina from the home?

I have the impression it was in September. But it is, again, only a recollection, because I remember that it was a very hot day—very sunny, hot day. So it could be in October. And also in October we started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were very busy.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Ford's recollection is that Marina was at her home—she came there on November 11, and left on November 17.

Mr. Jenner. And this is while Marina was separated temporarily from her husband?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Unless she had been twice at her home. I think she was only once at her home. There were three homes—once at Mellers, the Fords, and the third at the Rays, one after another, in succession.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she made when she left, herself—that is, this was not an occasion when you took her?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think that is the occasion we took her—we took her to the Mellers, and then she moved from them by herself—that we had no knowledge of. How she moved or who took her from one house to another, I do not know.

Mr. Jenner. You have a recollection there were two periods—one period that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then another period when she left the home, herself?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That could be, very easily. But then it would fit very well in my schedule—that would have been the second time—because, at that time, we were not seeing the Oswalds. We were busy on something else, Jeanne was working both in the store and at the foundation, I was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the Oswalds.

October, November; I don't think we saw them at all in October, November, December.

Mr. Jenner. Did I ask you about Betty MacDonald this morning, as to whether she was at that February 1963 party?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; I think that is the librarian. The name MacDonald sounds familiar to me. Is she Pierce's fiance? That is how I remember her.

Mr. Jenner. I am just trying to get these two events. Marina recalls when they lived on Elsbeth Street she had a dispute with Lee, and—about her Russian friends, in which he said, "Well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them."

And she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to Anna Meller's house with the baby.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we took her there. But maybe she went there for the second time, you see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; maybe she forgot it. You know, we took all the furniture also. I could not forget that—because my car was loaded. You could practically feel the ground. I still have the same car in Haiti today.

We had a tremendous load in our car. It took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them.

Mr. Jenner. She said because you were a strong person. She is expressing her opinion now, of course. But he only liked you among all this group. He disliked Bouhe, he disliked Anna Meller.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I am surprised, because Bouhe is very—a person that you can like or dislike immediately. As to Mrs. Meller, I am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person.

Mr. Jenner. Well, this is Lee Oswald. That could possibly arise out of the fact that Anna Meller befriended her when she left the household.

But you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in the Russian colony.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He did not have any friends, you see. Maybe he identified me not as a Russian, because I have not much Russian blood in me anyway. Maybe he identified me as some sort of an internationalist, American.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think of other friends that he had. I cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. I could not say that. He could be my son in age, you see. He is just a kid for me, with whom I played around. Sometimes I was curious to see what went on in his head.

But Marina, at least, expresses herself that way—that you "were the only one who remained our friend."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Sure, we left, you know. We were no friends, nothing. We just were too busy to be with them—period.

Mr. Jenner. I am not talking about you. I am talking about the other people now.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and we were too busy. We saw them—we withdrew also to an extent—you see what I mean. We saw a lot of them at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. Then we saw them again for Christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I would not say so. To us, he was always quite hospitable.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. About the others, I don't know, because I never saw anybody else there in the house.

I don't know how he would receive the people. I think he responded by kindness with kindness. He was responsive to kindness.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an impression among the people in this—we have talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them because—well, let me put it this way.

But you see most of the colony in Dallas is more emotionally involved in Russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. All of them have been relatively recently in Soviet Russia—while my wife has never been in Soviet Russia in her life, and I was 5 or 6 when I left it. So to me it doesn't mean very much.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express any views to you or give you the impression267 that he thought these people who had left Russia were fools for having left Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Did he express any view to you or did you get the impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked money, and everything was measured by money?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, naturally—he didn't tell that to me, but you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of them. I tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making scheme. I said, "Why don't you do something to make money?"

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. You were interested—you asked me if I belonged to some political party, and I said no. This group of Russian refugees called themselves solidarists. And Mr. and Mrs. Voshinin in Dallas belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. Not being interested, I refused, but I read some of their publications. And it is a pro-American group of Russian refugees who have an economic doctrine of their own. And they seem to have some people working in the Soviet Union for them, and all that sort of thing.

It is a pretty well-known political party that—their headquarters is in Germany.

Mr. Jenner. I notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on your part in a foreign council discussion group in Dallas.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I belonged to that group—I don't remember during what period—and came quite often to the meetings.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The Dallas Council of World Affairs. I met quite a few people at the meetings. But they were open, public meetings, where international affairs were discussed. I remember several of the Dallas real conservatives called that Dallas council very leftist. But I never noticed anything in particular.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; very much so. Mr. Marcus was the president of it. Mr. McGee was the president of it.

Mr. Mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. Mr. Mallon is chairman of the board of Dresser Industries. But they invited some people to Dallas who are possibly socialists—I don't remember seeing anyone, but I guess they might have invited them.

Mr. Jenner. Did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody in Dallas among your friends that Oswald was an idealistic Marxist?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That he had read and created some sort of a theory, a Marxist theory, for himself.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that it was an idea in his head that he had—not in a very flattering way I meant that. That he was building up a doctrine in his head.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that Oswald was opposed to the United States policy on Castro in Cuba?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I do not remember the exact wording, but he said that he had admiration for Castro for opposing such a big power as the United States.

268 Mr. Jenner. Did the Voshinins ever ask you not to bring the Oswalds around to their house?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. They refused to see and to meet the Oswalds, either one of them. And I was quite surprised, frankly, why they didn't, because we all did and at first helped them—and they usually were very cooperative in helping the other people. In this particular case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious—why they didn't want to meet them.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the Soviet system of government?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember saying anything like that. It might have been misinterpreted. But I believe in peaceful coexistence. I think we can all live together without blowing each other to hell—and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. Probably the person with whom I was discussing it believed in immediate atomic retaliation. So, naturally, I told him what the hell.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having said that if this country is ever invaded by Russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a top position with the Russians if they invaded the United States?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I never said that. That is a purely Texas invention. It must have been a real enemy of mine who said that.

Mr. Jenner. You wrote—I don't know whether it was after your 8 or 9 months in Mexico, when you were enamoured of Lilia Larin, or whether it was on this previous occasion—when you were at the University of Texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled "Experiences of a Young Man in Mexico"?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, is it absolutely necessary? I don't recall even what I had written there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall what it is. It is probably based on the travel in Mexico with some girls—that is about all. That is what I would write at that time and that age.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned somebody from Brazil that had the sobriquet of King of Bananas. Was that the King of Orchids rather than the King of Bananas?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, maybe. But we called him the King of Bananas. At least I called him that.

I remember his name now—I mentioned it to you. Dr. Decio de Paulo Machado. I still—I think he is still in existence, because I asked about him recently.

Mr. Jenner. If I said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your own judgment of yourself?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I don't know if it is for others to call me. I would rather be an extrovert than an introvert.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Then I am happy to be an extrovert. I don't like to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because I think if you pass the limit it is too much.

Mr. Jenner. Of course. Any extreme is bad. I made a reference yesterday to269 Professor Zitkoff, in Houston. I thought that might stimulate your recollection. Did you make regular trips to Houston?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no. Without regularity, but quite often—mainly to see my clients there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the oil business—I mainly used to come to see my friend John Jacobs, vice president of Texas Eastern, and the social acquaintances that I had there—Andy Todd, an architect there, a professor at Rice Institute. And maybe somebody else—I don't recall the name.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Maybe I was trying at the time to push forward my project in Haiti, you see, whereby I was trying to raise some money for the development of small industries in Haiti. And on that occasion I saw quite a few important people. But purely for that purpose—purely for business.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a time when both Christiana and your daughter were living in Dallas with you?

Mr. Jenner. In your 1957 venture with the International Cooperation—as an agent of the International Cooperation Administration, in addition to Poland, as I understand it, you visited France?

Mr. Jenner. Had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that you would also visit Switzerland, England, Italy, and West Germany?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I didn't see those countries—I didn't have time to see them. Instead of that, I stayed much longer in Sweden, visiting some distant relatives there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any political discussions with any so-called true Communists when you were in Yugoslavia?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Arguments; yes. Discussions, occasionally. The real argument I had—I think maybe I mentioned it yesterday—was with the head of the Communist Party in Slovenia, who attacked me very strongly for being an American and for the fact that we had this Arkansas case, with Governor Faubus. He was very obnoxious, and I told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the United States—they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased in their opinions.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I think in my stay in Yugoslavia, and without taking too much pride in it, I made more friends for the United States than anybody else, because they could—I could explain to them the opportunities given to foreign born in the United States, and how joyful the life is in the States. For instance, I used to explain to them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. To them it was beyond comprehension. To them it was a miracle that a man like me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. For them, it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price—when it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small syndicate. And since I had small production of my own, I explained to them how I did that. And it was a fascinating story for them. So I think I did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to me from there.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make a trip to Europe in 1960? At that time, did you270 plan to leave early in March, March 11, and visit France, Yugoslavia, Italy, England, and Belgium, for a period of 3 weeks, on geological visits?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. There might have been some projects to do that, and it did not materialize.

Mr. Jenner. Maybe this will stimulate you. You, at that time, were at the Statler Hilton Hotel in Washington, D.C.?

Mr. Jenner. March 10, as a matter of fact. Do you remember your passport being renewed on March 11?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Did I go to Europe or not? I don't remember. Maybe I went to Ghana at that time, in 1960 instead of going to Belgium—I went on this consulting job to Ghana.

I don't recall. My wife will recall all that precisely, because she remembers the dates.

I did go to Europe in 1960, because I remember I went to see my little boy in Philadelphia at that time before going to Europe. I was planning to. But my wife will remember all that.

Mr. Jenner. So we can identify you as far as these papers are concerned, is this a fair description of you? That you are a white male, 6'1" tall, brown hair—dark brown hair, blue eyes—do you have a scar on your face?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, I think you can see.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. On the cheek—it comes from a dog bite in my childhood. And this one is a new one—I got it in Yugoslavia.

Mr. Jenner. That is about the center of your forehead, up top, near your hairline?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I fell down on a rock with my head—had a few stitches taken.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By the way, I may say—my wife reminded me of it today—regarding the fact that I was taking sketches of so-called Coast Guard in Texas, in 1940 or 1941—of course, which I was not doing, because I was sketching the beach. The same thing happened to me in Yugoslavia, except that this time they were the Communists who thought I was making sketches of their fortifications. Actually, I was also making drawings of the seashore. And this time they shot at us.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Shot. And they told me to get away—we were in a little boat. And they kept on shooting at me. And the bullets were hitting the water right around us—until we were away out into the sea. So I made a complaint to the U.S. Embassy in Belgrade, and some kind of an investigation was made. But this is an interesting correlation—that I am accused both by the Yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. I should abandon making sketches in the future. No more painting.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; much earlier than myself, because I think he came to this country in the early twenties.

Mr. Jenner. The records show he was naturalized November 22, 1926, in the U.S. district court at New Haven, which is where Yale University is located.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; approximately the right period. I remember he went to Yale with Rudy Vallee—they were roommates.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned that your brother came over to Europe and271 was in Belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to this country.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; before I came back for the first time to this country.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Because it is my brother who helped me to arrange my passport and my entrance. He didn't help me financially, but arranged my permit.

Mr. Jenner. To refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in 1936, to visit Poland and France for 3 months, and for the purpose of visiting his family, and collecting material for magazine articles.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is about the right time when I first saw him after many, many years—we took a trip together to see our father in Poland.

Mr. Jenner. Now, at that time, he had already completed his work at Yale, had he not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. He took a Ph. D. at Columbia. But I don't know what year he received his Ph. D.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he travels whenever he had—whenever he can get away from teaching.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He also is editor of the Russian Review, a magazine.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think he is a professor of Russian culture, Russian civilization, history.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall—is this a description of him: He is a white male, 5 foot 11 inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; an amazing thing happened. You know, he didn't know that we were in Europe.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Neither knew. And we bumped into each other in the most crowded street in Paris. It is an amazing coincidence.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. He used to. I don't think he has now. He may have grown it lately.

Mr. Jenner. Your daughter Alexandra has another given name, hasn't she—Romeyn?

Mr. Jenner. She was born April 17—December 25, 1943. We brought that out yesterday.

272 Mr. Jenner. Did you ever know your wife Phyllis' parents, Simone Fleischer—Simone Fleischer Washington and Jack Stecker?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't know her real father. But I met her stepfather—Walter Washington Stecker.

Mr. Jenner. She was the daughter of Simone Fleischer, and was adopted by Walter Washington?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I was trying to work up some kind of concession, I think. I was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried to contact the Dominican Ambassador—purely for business reasons—some kind of an oil project which had to do with the Dominican Republic.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Have you been in the Dominican Republic in the last—let's say the last 6 months?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was there several times. No. 1, in March 1963, on my way to Haiti, to sign a contract with the Haitian Government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between planes. It was necessary to stop there, because there was no right connection. Pan American arranged so that the passengers to Haiti would stop in the Dominican Republic for the night, and then leave the next morning.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. The next time we were with—let's see—yes; we were—my wife and I when we were coming to Haiti, exactly on the same—in the same—the same occasion, to spend the night.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Overnight, and take the plane the next morning, on our way to Haiti in June—I think the first or second of June in 1963. And then just recently, about a week ago, when I went to check on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the Bureau of Mines in the Dominican Republic. And again I went to San Juan, and then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the Dominican Republic, finished getting the information, and returned to Haiti. And then again on the way to the United States now, just stopping there.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; to the best of my memory—yes; I remember now why I tried to contact the Dominican Embassy in 1957. Somebody told me—I don't remember who—that they needed a consulting geologist in the Dominican Republic, and I tried to contact the ambassador, and never was able to see him.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall commenting, along with Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between Lee Oswald and any organization or government because you thought nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I remember making that statement. I think it was in Port au Prince that I made that statement.

Naturally anybody—who would—in our opinion, if he killed the President of the United States, he must have been mentally unstable. I could not find any other explanation. Or somebody might have paid him for it. But this is another speculation that came to me later on. But, again, it is purely speculation on our part.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you had no—now that you have made that statement, I have to pursue it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. By reading the papers, you know—we had no other273 information. By reading the papers and putting two and two together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you see—especially I remember reading in one of the papers that——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; American papers. We haven't read any foreign language papers. We get the Miami Herald, New York Times, we get Haitian papers, French language papers, of course. And I think in one of those papers it was said that Lee Oswald mentioned to his wife before the assassination that he was going to get some money.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. When I read that article, then the idea started coming—arising in my imagination.

Mr. Jenner. Assuming the article was correct, that Oswald had said to Marina that he was going to get some money from some source?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; when we knew the Oswalds, they were always in dismal poverty.

Mr. Jenner. When you visited Dallas at the end of May 1963, before you went to Haiti, did you see the Oswalds then?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. My wife will tell you exactly. I don't think we had time to see anybody. We were just packing. As I recall it, I did receive a card, a postcard, from Oswald—I don't remember when—before we left the United States, saying, "We are in New Orleans," and giving the address. And I lost that card.

Mr. Jenner. Did you write a letter to Mrs. Hugh D. Auchincloss in December of 1963?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't remember the date, but I did write a letter to her.

Mr. Jenner. You expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the death of her son-in-law, John Fitzgerald Kennedy?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall making this statement in the letter: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald, and especially his wife Marina, sometime last fall."

Mr. Jenner. What do you mean by the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, now, since all this happened, it causes—it is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the President of the United States. And since he is dead, it doesn't matter. But we still know Marina. We had the misfortune of knowing her—it caused us no end of difficulty, from every point of view.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and misfortune—also now, when you look the situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that is all. We shouldn't have done it. We should have known better. And, actually,——

Mr. Jenner. Why should you have known better, Mr. De Mohrenschildt? What was wrong with what you did?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing wrong. But it is wrong that we were charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe.

Mr. Jenner. But you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion he might have been. So what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is correct. But still I regret that I have known him. I shouldn't have been so extroverted.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall saying in your letter, "Both my wife and I tried to274 help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mr. Jenner. You also said, if you will recall—"some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character."

Mr. Jenner. "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously."

Mr. Jenner. "Marina stayed with a family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." You have told me about that course of events.

Mr. Jenner. Then you comment, "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy for success, and the late President was successful in so many domains, and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken." Now, let me ask you about the first two sentences.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In my opinion, if Lee Oswald did kill the President, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and was a world figure. And poor Oswald was just the opposite. He had nothing. He had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did.

Mr. Jenner. Well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a way of this man—of what he thought of raising himself up by his own bootstraps?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Exactly. It made him a hero in his own mind—it made him a hero in his own mind. He did not realize possibly that he was doing it at the expense to the whole Nation. He might have had a mental blackout.

Mr. Jenner. Then you make the comment "better precautions should have been taken."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is my very strong opinion, that better precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in Dallas at the time to protect the President.

Now, I do not consider myself an exceedingly—a genius. But the very first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the assassination of the President, when we were listening to the radio in the house of an employee of the American Embassy in Port au Prince, and he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something Lee, Lee, Lee—and I said, "Could it be Lee Oswald?"

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. As soon as I heard the name Lee. Now, why it occurred to me—because he was a crazy lunatic.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Immediately something occurred in my mind—the rifle. Actually, my wife and I were driving from a reception at the Syrian Embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. We were driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the Embassy and wondering who275 could it be. And as soon as we heard that name, some association started working in our minds—and the fact that there was a gun there.

But my opinion—and again—was influenced naturally by what you read and hear in the papers. We were out of contact with people in Dallas, and out of contact with events.

Sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I read in the papers some place—he was getting regular checks.

Then you read this and that, I am not a detective. It is not up to me to make any conclusions.

Mr. Jenner. This letter was written, I take it—it is dated December 12, 1963. At the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they?

Mr. Jenner. Would you look at the envelope that is attached to the letter. Is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have any of your handwriting on it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Port-au-Prince, Haiti. It was sent from Haiti, this letter.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge—unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.

Mr. Jenner. And that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination?

Mr. Jenner. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person—that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anybody else?

Mr. Jenner. And you had no notion of anybody else, and no information of anybody else being involved?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; I have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners who read foreign papers. And, of course, they are all of the opinion that Oswald did not kill the President, that there was a plot, that there was—that somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots—and all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now, in the colony of foreigners—Embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti, most of them Europeans, of course. They discuss it all day long.

Mr. Jenner. And they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive from their homeland?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Purely; yes—purely. As you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that subject.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you?

Mr. Jenner. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Auchincloss was not intended to imply that?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; it was not. It was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony. And I think it will be fair to say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life.

Mr. Jenner. You may have an opportunity to read the Commission report, which I assume you will.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you the envelope and letter. Do you identify those as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the letter was enclosed?

Mr. Jenner. This letter leads me then into your Haiti venture. Tell us about it. How did that arise, when did you first think about it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I started doing geological work in Haiti in 1956, I think, the first time, where I worked for some Haitian people connected with the Sinclair interests in Haiti.

I worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the northern part of Haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a company in Tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the Cuban situation.

In other words, the company did not want to drill in Haiti because of the expropriations going on in the Caribbean area. And the next time then I was in Haiti, as I explained before, after our trip——

Mr. Jenner. That is the trip you made down there, Mexico and the Central American countries?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes—in 1961—and started preparing this project from then on.

Finally the project came to fruition in March 1963, and we left for Haiti—at the end of May 1963.

Mr. Jenner. You made a trip to New York City before you went to Haiti, did you not?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Visited my daughter. And also was in Washington preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the people, Bureau of Mines, and so forth.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a gentleman by the name of Tardieu whom you were attempting to interest?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; he is actually interested, and he is a Frenchman living in Haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting this contract.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document which we will mark "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. It appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued in connection with the Haiti venture.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the upper portion is in French. Would you favor me by reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the right?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is a very long article. A magnificent success for the Commercial Bank of Haiti. The result of a trip——

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "The recent trip to the United States of America by Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, the active president and manager general of the bank, Commercial Bank of Haiti, has constituted a magnificent success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now.

"In reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant mayor of New York, Mr. James O'Brien, has given to Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles the keys of the city of New York in the name of Mayor Wagner, who was at that time in Europe.

"The dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of Mr. Clemard Charles, namely, by the American Express, Patent Resources, Inc., and the Hanover Trust Co. A short contact with Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. The active president and director general of the Commercial Bank of Haiti has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest financial companies in New York which does business in the millions of dollars. This enterprise guaranteed by the Import-Export Bank, the Chase Manhattan Bank, and the Bank of America, will make possible to the Haitian importers of American merchandise through the Commercial Bank of Haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for 6 months and longer periods.

"One other financial society which specialized in the real estate business which does business for some $150 million per year, will start through the intermediary of the Commercial Bank of Haiti a program of construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for 10 years.

"A system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. Our country will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting contracts taken by Mr. Clemard J. Charles in New York. The president and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for Canada and Mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit278 the Commercial Bank of Haiti to be of further advantage to the people of Haiti."

Mr. Jenner. You have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Mr. C. J. Charles, honorary citizen of the city of New York. Mr. Clemard Joseph Charles, president and director of the Bank Commercial of Haiti, Port-au-Prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, Sophie, from a trip of 2 weeks in New York, and was accompanied by Mr. James R. Green, vice president of the Manufacturers Hanover Trust Co., which is a large bank of Wall Street, New York.

"Mr. Green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the Commercial Bank with which Hanover Trust Co. wants to do business. Mr. Charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. The Haitian banker was honored by Mayor Wagner of the city of New York, and has made his assistant, Mr. O'Brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to Mr. Charles."

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark that "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 1"?

Mr. Jenner. This is a photostat of two news items in the Haitian paper in Port-au-Prince, together with a telegram.

Now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion literature with respect to your Haitian venture?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. In the respect that they acquaint the possible investor with the personalities involved.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Mr. B. Juindine Tardieu, who is the agent and you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the Haitian Government.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you had some correspondence with Clemard Joseph Charles?

Mr. Jenner. Is the letter I now hand you, which we will identify as George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2, a photostatic copy of correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you transmitted to Paul Raigorodsky?

(The document referred to was marked "George S. De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 2" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Now I will show you a series of three documents, the first sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, I believe in your handwriting, to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky; is that correct?

The next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to Mr. Raigorodsky; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. The next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, dated July 27, 1962, to Mr. Jean de Menil.

Mr. Jenner. In which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in your handwriting, "Copy for Mr. Raigorodsky."

Mr. Jenner. And lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one sheet, dated August 1, 1962, signed by you at the bottom?

Mr. Jenner. And on your letterhead—George De Mohrenschildt, Petroleum Geologist and Engineer, 1639-40 Republican National Bank Building, Dallas 1, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark those in the record, I have given them to you, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 3, 4, 5, and 6" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. In addition to those materials, did you also transmit to Mr. Raigorodsky two additional documents which I have in my hand—one a photostatic copy of a Western Union telegram, dated August 3, 1963, from Tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of yours to the gentlemen I mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Jean de Menil; dated August 7, 1962, upon which there appears some handwritten notes of yours to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16."

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 7 and 16" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. On September 12, you appear to have transmitted some additional materials to Mr. Raigorodsky. I hold in my hand three documents.

The first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in the upper left-hand corner, your Dallas office, addressed to Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.

The second, a letter signed "George and Jeanne" over a typewritten signature, "Jeanne and George De Mohrenschildt."

Mr. Jenner. And this letter is dated September 12, 1963. You transmitted that letter to Mr. Raigorodsky?

Mr. Jenner. In the envelope we have just identified. And did you also enclose the third document, which is a diagram of——

Mr. Jenner. And it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand "Credits available for these industries—George De M., Dallas, September 11, 1963." Is that your handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. Did you also send Mr. Raigorodsky a map of Haiti, in which you—excuse me.

Mr. Reporter, would you mark the three documents I have just identified as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 8, 9, and 10" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, identify the next document as De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11.

(The document referred to was marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 11" for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, it is the description map of Haiti. This is a map published by the Texaco Co., and it is available to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. I just want you to read the words, and not elaborate. I am going to have you elaborate on them. There is in the upper right-hand corner first near the letter "A" of "Atlantic," an arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. What are the words there?

Mr. Jenner. And then to the right of that inscription, there are three lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which I see the word "Caracol." Read those words.

Now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "Mont Rouis." And then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands encircled, there appears more writing.

Mr. Jenner. I am just getting the wording first, and then I will have you explain it all later.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the words "Our Shada concession" are the words at the lead end of the arrow which points to Mont Rouis, which you have already identified in the record.

Now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions we have just described, there is some more writing. Would you read that?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, there is an encirclement around—between the two we have identified, but above—it looks as though the center of this island here—there is an inscription. This appears in the area—there is an X there—an airplane indication Hinche and there is some writing. What is that?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, Port-au-Prince is encircled. Then at the bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow pointed to Pationville. And that arrow leads to some handwriting.

Mr. Jenner. Now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an area, the chief town of which appears to be what?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I guess we have gotten everything you have written on there. Now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about your Haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No. It started—it already started by my previous work there in 1956. It is the result of many trips I took to Haiti in the meantime. And it is a result of an effort which started in 1961.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Of Haiti. Dated in 1961, giving me an opportunity to present a geological survey of Haiti.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This was to search and study the oil and gas and all the mineralogical points of the whole country.

Mr. Jenner. Did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the Haitian Government, to you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in Haiti mineral deposits that281 might be of economic value to Haiti, and to those who might be willing to risk their capital to develop it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. This is the only purpose I have—purely business promotional project.

Mr. Jenner. And this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or group?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. No; no other nation could use my maps, and no other project, except our own commercial and geological project—nothing else.

Anyway, the whole Island of Haiti has been mapped in complete precision by the U.S. Government already, and the maps are available right here in Washington. And my office in Port-au-Prince, actually they are officers of Inter-American Geodetic Survey.

On one side is the American representative of the Geodetic Survey, and on the other side I am doing my geological work in the same building. He helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his maps, and we pursue our own work there.

I employed in the last 8 months since we have been in Haiti an Italian geologist who came specially to Haiti from South America, with all the equipment, and stayed with us for several months. I employed a Swiss assistant. I employed—I am employing an American geologist right now, recommended by the University of Texas, who is living in Haiti with his family, and whose salary I am paying; I am responsible for him.

I have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from Alaska, an American. And I am employing a group of Haitian engineers and geologists—engineers, not geologists, because they don't have geologists. Engineers. And it is a project which—for which the Haitian Government is supposed to pay me $285,000, out of which they pay $20,000 in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the sisal plantation at Mont Rouis.

This plantation started to be operated jointly by Mr. Clemard J. Charles, president of the Commercial Bank of Haiti, and myself; and now Mr. Charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, and I am pursuing my geological work.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want you to reveal any business secret, because I appreciate—all I am getting at is the general description of the project, and its good faith.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I hope that this will be sufficiently justified in good faith.

Mr. Jenner. And these documents we have identified are documents which you sent to Mr. Raigorodsky with what thought in mind?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. With the thought of having him eventually participate in various enterprises which may come out of it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Such as development of small industries, development of oil production, development of new hotels and new resorts, et cetera. Because the country is open to new business and I think has excellent opportunities for American investments.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, you have expressed an opinion, have you not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the FBI in connection with the assassination of the President?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think that they should have sent away from Dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would do—when somebody—when an important figure arrives to town, and there are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, you know—any controversial people should be not necessarily put to jail, but sent away from the town.

Mr. Jenner. You assume that the FBI was aware that he had this weapon, and he was target practicing with it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. That I do not know, whether they had that knowledge282 of the weapon. But it is not for me to judge them. But I think they should have known. If they didn't know, they should have known.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it your opinion, whether they did or did not know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to Oswald's attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel——

Mr. Jenner. And as an American citizen, it is your view that they should have done what?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I think they should have—in my opinion, they shouldn't have let him come back to the United States—No. 1.

And No. 2, the people like us should have been protected against even knowing people like Oswald. Maybe I am wrong in that respect.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. And thirdly, Oswald was known as a violent character, especially in the last time. He was known, as I read from the papers, that he participated in pro-Castro demonstrations in New Orleans. That is what I read in the papers. And so therefore, he should have been kept away from Dallas when the President was there.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you mark the Auchincloss letter, dated February 2, 1964, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13, respectively?

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 12 and 13," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. And the Auchincloss letter of December 12, 1963, and its accompanying envelope as De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15, respectively.

(The documents referred to were marked "De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 14 and 15," for identification.)

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. All these contracts in Haiti have been made official by an act of Congress of Haiti on March 13, 1963, and signed by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating that the price of the geological survey would be $285,000, and the consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in Haiti, originally an American company called Shada, built by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and developed during the war, and later on sold to the Haitian Government. This concession is given to me for the duration of 10 years, with an extended duration of 10 years more. I think that will explain it.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. I could talk for hours about this project, because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort.

Mr. Jenner. In order that the correspondence be complete, Mr. De Mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, I will ask you to read the letter in evidence. It has a longhand note on it. You might want to keep the original. So just read it. And just for the purpose of the record, and not because I suspicion you, I will watch you read it.

"Thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for Jacqueline. Please accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. How tragic for you.

"It seems extraordinary to me that you knew Oswald and that you knew Jackie as a child. It is certainly a very strange world."

Mr. Jenner. Hold it a minute. The second paragraph begins with the words "It seems."

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "You did not say why you were in Haiti, so I imagine that you are in our Foreign Service. If you come to Washington again, I would like to talk with you, and I would very much like to meet your wife. When you next write to Dimitri, will you send him my warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy."

"I live now in Georgetown. Your letter has made me think a good deal. I hope too—that Mrs. Oswald will not suffer.

Mr. Jenner. I show you what purports to be a transcript of a Christmas card, 1963, allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page 3, Commission Document 703-F. Would you read it, please?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Best wishes for 1964, George and Jeanne De M.

"Alex is in New York State, supposedly working at some mental hospital. Gary Taylor takes care of Cousin Lil. Nancy is alive, still kicking. We are happy here. Appalled at the crimes in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the crimes in Dallas"?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I mean the assassination of the President and subsequent assassination of Lee Oswald by Ruby, and the assassination by Oswald of this policeman—three assassinations, one after another.

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him when you were in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. Was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took place in the presence of Lee Oswald while you were present?

Mr. Jenner. Was at any time there any conversation, or did anything occur while you were in Dallas to lead you to believe directly or indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that Lee Oswald knew Jack Ruby?

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur in Dallas by way of any statements to you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, that would lead you at any time while you were in Dallas, to lead you to believe that Lee Oswald was ever in the Carousel Club in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. That he thought you were in good faith, offering him an opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any business advantage.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; of course. I offered this project to quite a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of Haiti, and I am284 very happy to say that I am now the sole proprietor of the whole project. It may be all for the best.

Mr. Jenner. I will show the witness pages 4, 5 and 6 and 7 of Commission Document No. 542. I wish to direct your attention primarily to the—what purports to be a letter from you to Mr. Kitchel, setting forth the background of information on a holding company that you were developing in Haiti. Would you read the letter?

Mr. Jenner. I think not—but if you will hold a minute. What I have just shown you is a copy of De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 6.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and people who might be interested in a mining development of Haiti.

I am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil possibilities.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the record, and I had lunch with you a couple of times. Is there anything that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions which I have not already brought out on the record that you think is pertinent and should be brought out?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I don't know everything by any means. I will ask you this general question. Is there anything else, despite all our careful investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think is pertinent and might be helpful to the Commission in its important work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. Frankly, I cannot think of anything else you could do. All the rest—what else can you do except investigate as much as you can?

Mr. Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at some inconvenience?

Mr. Jenner. And on behalf of the Commission, and the Commission staff, I want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here for 2 days spontaneously and directly. Some of them have been highly personal. But you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been personal. We appreciate your assistance and your help.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as I spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me I think yesterday that you would like to read it over.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If it won't be a very lengthy job and very hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. I think I have said everything I could know. I don't think I could add or change very much. It is all right as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Jenner. As far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing?

Mr. De Mohrenschildt. If I made a mistake, it was involuntary. I might have missed a date or something. But I did to the best of my ability.

Mr. Jenner. We will have your deposition by tomorrow. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow.

If you would like to come over and read it, you may. Otherwise, if you don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it.

I offer in evidence the exhibits I have heretofore marked, being De Mohrenschildt Exhibits 1 through 16, inclusive.

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 4:45 p.m., on April 23, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, in the course of your deposition which I am about to take?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I have a brother by the same name Sergei, and he had a son by the name Sergei. Maybe he wants to add the letter to our name.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never knew that. Sergei is his father's name—that is what it is.

Give me your full maiden name. Your name as you were born and given to you by your parents.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It is Manchuria. The northern part of China, close to the Siberian border.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I recall, we had a—we had three portraits in the house, of children—my portrait, my brother's portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. And the portrait—she was about 3 or 4 years old. I don't know how, where did they get that idea, or was I actually told—but she is supposed to be my half-sister—Alexandra her name was supposed to be. And I think my father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. We have never had any curiosity about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No—couldn't. I came here in 1938. How could you possibly get that?

Mr. Jenner. All right. I am misadvised. I was looking at the wrong thing. You were naturalized when?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe it was 1945, but I cannot be absolutely sure. I have my papers in the hotel. 1944 or 1945, maybe it is 1944. If you want286 the exact date, I can easily get it for you. Do you actually have information, naturalized in 1936?

Mr. Jenner. No, I don't. I have your immigration record here. I will find it in a moment. You became a U.S. citizen in proceedings in the U.S. district court, in New York City, February 28, 1945.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My father took a Chinese passport, and I cannot tell you whether he already had it when I was born, or whether he took one later. But I believe he took one later. He took probably one later, when they sold the railroad to the Reds, you know. That is when he took the Chinese passport.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. To my knowledge, yes. They were living a few years in China before I was born.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in what business or occupation or government service was your father engaged?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. For China. He was working directly with the Chinese Government and with Chinese officials, with Chinese people. And then in 1925, when the Chinese sold the railroad——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In 1925, the Chinese people sold the railroad to the Russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the Trans-Siberian Railroad. My father resigned. And he received quite a lot of money from that. He had been in the service for quite a few years.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; I knew about that. I cannot tell you—that is recollections of the past. And he started to build another railroad on his own called HoHi Railroad.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, your father, as you said, was director of a Chinese Eastern railroad.

Mr. Jenner. I was looking for some papers here. The Chinese sold the railroad to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. In any event, your father ceased at that time to be director of the Chinese Eastern Railroad.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He resigned, and in fact we were planning to come to the United States, the whole family. We wanted to come to the United States.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Just because it is not our country to live there forever. We were brought up with white people, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to the Russians?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because from what I know they wanted him to take a Communist passport, and he refused.

287 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is from what I know he is supposed to have Chinese passport.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. He was—not the chief, but the elderly friend for the Scouts. We had a wonderful Scout organization, Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. He was very, very active in that. He was sort of like a patron for it. We have a marvelous organization in China. In fact, I didn't see anywhere in the world yet—how well it was conducted.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We never could, since 1941, right after Pearl Harbor——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. After Pearl Harbor, we didn't have any communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. We tried to check through the Red Cross and find out. Nothing could be done. We just couldn't find out. Whenever I saw some people that returned from China, came over, and whenever I asked them what happened to my parents, did you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't know, they just disappeared. Then in 1957, when I saw my brother, he told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in 1945 and he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. Father was killed by the Communists.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I don't know which ones—the Chinese or Reds or Japanese—I don't know who. And he was taken on the railroad—that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere and shoot you. And my brother told me he died in 1941. I don't know how he found out. I assume and I think that the American government helped him, because he is in rather secret work. He could not possibly do it, having parents——

Mr. Jenner. Now, you eventually—before you came to the United States, were you married?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He had a few first names, and to tell you the truth I don't know which one is the right one. I cannot say. Because half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called him by the other name.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The first name was Valentin, and the second one was Bob—they called him Bob. So which one is right, I don't know. But I liked Bob better.

Mr. Jenner. In what business or profession was your husband engaged when you were married?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, at the time when we were married, he was—we were both working, making designs and constructions—making plans and building houses together.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't exactly business. I don't know—it is not done like it is done in the United States. We just knew how to build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had the project—somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with contractors and had the building constructed. And then I believe he was also working in the—the Japanese were building their airport.

288 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In Harbin. And he was helping and surveying the grounds or something. This I don't know, because I wasn't present—something on this order. And that is what really actually made us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the Japanese started to grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants. They wanted to keep everything very, very secret. So quite a few of our friends just disappeared overnight.

And then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already, completely beaten to a pulp and so on. Quite a few things started to go on. And then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. We took a train and went south, and went to Shanghai, and lived in Shanghai, until we were ready to come to the United States.

Mr. Jenner. While you were in China, were you and your husband—did you engage as a dancing team?

You see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job somewhere. So he was helping me. He helped me as a partner. And I danced a solo.

You see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were doing very well really. Fate does strange things to you—throws you from one profession to another. You think it is the greatest tragedy—I will tell you later what happened to me—and it is the best, actually.

So it was working out very well. We were quite successful. And then something happened later.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. LeGon. We picked up the name out of the dancing magazine. But with this name—you see how it happens. You get so involved that you have to stick to it. You cannot just—you knew—because some people know you by this name, then you start with another name, and it sounds ridiculous. But since then already we had it. And we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it, because personally I don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is not fair for the country to use a name like Bogoiavlensky, or a name like De Mohrenschildt. If it would be up to me, I would cut the other one down.

Mr. Jenner. There have been some people that because of the name LeGon—that you had some French. You are not French?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, I will tell you. I had to start in New York to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had terrible trouble to get any kind of work. He was making $18 a week.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is why I could not dance any more. I had to drop completely dancing and everything.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Her given name was Jeanne Elinor LeGon. Also after a dancer.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, exactly. And being unaware—you see, in Europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case.

In the States the last name is the one that counts—the previous names don't mean much.

289 So when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a legal paper of changing our name to LeGon. So in her birth certificate I put down Jeanne Elinor LeGon and just in case, Bogoiavlensky, so just in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown somewhere—I was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be put out of the country or something—she was born here, and that is her name, and I put that Bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate.

And besides—I lost her birth certificate once when I needed it for a passport—I could not find it, because I was looking under "L"—I told them to look under "L". And for months they were looking under "L" and then it dawned on me, did I put, by any chance, Bogoiavlensky.

It is a pretty name. In fact, it is a very novel name. But I don't think it belongs in this country. I think it is ridiculous for people to have such long names. If you are a priest's family, that would be fine. But not for us.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I know, he was born in—I think in Russia—and brought out as a very, very little boy. And I never met his father. His mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. I only knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful.

He had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in the war with China and Japan. We never could find them. One of them was with the British forces and another with the French forces. And I understand one was sent to Hong Kong, and the other remained in Shanghai. And we never heard from them.

So that is one of the really big tragedies. We were anxious to find them, because we were going to get them over here. They had good heads. They could grow up very fine.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely. It was the country by choice, because we could have gone to Europe. But I didn't want anything—this was from so and so. I said I wanted to have a country where everything is new and fresh, and if I break something I go to the store and buy another one.

I never have anything you can break. It was just because I was brought up with furniture with little gilded things in it, I don't want any part of it. I have been in Europe about 15 times after.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And I enjoy being there for a few weeks. But I would never live in Europe. I would not be happy.

If I had to, I would live there, but I don't like—the whole atmosphere doesn't appeal to me.

Mr. Jenner. There have been various reports on your views with respect to Russia and communism.

Well, I tell you. I am not a Communist by all means at all. I think that revolution in Russia was inevitable. It is just horrible that it happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. 1917, 1918—that is when it started. I know in fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never any conversation—too many people were killed. In fact, from what I understand, all the families290 of my father and mother were killed, too. So we never had any conversation about it. We just were kept away from the whole thing.

And, beside, I deliberately stayed away from all of that. I said it is none of my business, I have never been there, I don't know what it is all about, I don't want to know anything about it. I don't want to be prejudiced to anything.

But after, later on, when I grew up and the revolution was necessary, it is just too bad it happened like that.

And I do hope that the country eventually will come out and become human again, and I think it is getting to be more and more human.

But it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have. That was the most wonderful thing. When I came here—unfortunately, I landed in New York. I didn't want to, but my brother was in New York and he said you come right away to New York.

I love California, because of the climate. I like sunshine. So I came to New York, and New York, of course, was very depressing to me, because it was dirty. And I had an idea that all the white countries and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. They are supposed to be well mannered.

And then I came in in that awful New York. And, of course, I had almost no money. I had to use subways. It was very, very bad.

But then I saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying anything he wants to. And I said, what is going on? They said he is just saying something—I forgot what it was all about. But how people were talking freely and expressing themselves openly.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; And in China—you see, we were always—we never could say anything openly, for many reasons.

First, I don't know, but I assume there was a lot of Red spies probably everywhere. So we could never say too much.

So we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will happen to you. That is the atmosphere that I was brought up in.

I wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because sometimes he says things—of course, being European, he likes to see Russia.

I said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for 2 days, you would be shot in 2 days. He doesn't feel that there is a place, places that you cannot be like he is. You just cannot do it. Maybe that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he wants to say, and people misinterpret it. People misinterpret it, and then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else, and then they say he says something bad. This is really terrible. This is many, many times, you know. But he learned his lesson now. Living in Haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with Papa Doc. You know the regime there now. He is quite a dictator. He is going to be pronounced the king now, at the end of May. And, of course, there is tremendous opposition against it. It is not for our sake, but for our Haitian friends' sake, we cannot say anything.

He said—"I am so glad we went to Haiti, because I have no desire to go to Russia."

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. But some day I hope, anyway. I would like to see it. I would like to go down south to the Crimea which I understand is beautiful, the Black Sea. I would like to see all the world.

He is with North American Aircraft Co. He just switched. He was with Ramo Wooldridge. A few years before that he was with Linnet Co. in Beverly Hills, and before that with Howard Hughes, and before that he was with Berkeley, University at Berkeley, doing some research.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He attended after the war. But he originally came over to study in Berkeley. He graduated from Berkeley. But then when the war broke out he volunteered—he was 2½ years in service. But he was never sent over, because he did so much important research work, that they kept him here.

And he met Professor Rasby of Chicago University. And then he went to work with him in Chicago University for very, very little money, but he had all the facilities for his work. That is where he met his second wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, I hope. Four little kinds, darling home.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. There was a lot of unpleasantness around in that time, because he was already going off completely.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, no, no; before that. It was 1957, spring of 1957. Yes; it was in the spring of 1957.

I believe it was first of May or something. I don't remember exactly. But it is pretty close.

Mr. Jenner. And you married your present husband, George De Mohrenschildt, in the summer of 1959?

You know what happened to him mentally. He went completely—I don't know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them, maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's name or something. But for a particular reason he didn't take it himself, but he put it—insisted that my daughter will take the name.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Bogoiavlensky—and drop the LeGon. And she was baptized—she was brought up as Episcopalian. I never baptized her, because I wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew up. I know too many people who have too many difficulties later when they find out they want something else. By the time she was baptized she liked the name Christiana and she took that name. And he changed her name to Bogoiavlensky again. So it was very, very unpleasant and horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do.

292 Mr. Jenner. Did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing you of being a Communist?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know if you have a letter, I wish I would have a letter what he did. You see I had charge accounts throughout the country, because I was making very good money. Lord and Taylor, Saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. And when that happened, I actually told him that is the end, I am divorcing you, and that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the department stores, including Niemans, and I believe Niemans showed me the letter, and there was a Golden Pheasant Restaurant—they showed me the letter—that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that Eugenia Fomenko Bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is—almost putting that I am a spy, and God knows what in it, and that he is not responsible for my debts, for my accounts.

It was 1957, and since 1941 I was the one that made all the money in the family. I was the one making all these things, bringing up my child. So that was horrible. That is not all. He sent letters, and he signed "FBI"—make believe they are from the FBI. He sent to all my people in New York, firms that I work with, that also I am a spy or something, this and that, horrible.

And I was in Europe that summer. And a friend of mine came over and said, "What is the matter with you?" She said, "What happened to you? The FBI are looking for you."

They said, some were laughing about it. But some I know they had a little something behind their heads.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that, already set people thinking. And do you know that I could not get a job in New York, just because of that? And, fortunately, being in Texas, I switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and I had two jobs in no time in that market.

And I was able to get—I lost my job in Texas while I was in Europe because of that.

I never told that—I don't know if my present husband knows it—because that would really kill him, a thing like that.

But it was eventually straightened out. But I was actually out, I couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, I had to send her money. I had nothing.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I will tell you. It is really a very tragic thing. I knew I should have dropped this when she was 6 years old, because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. But we just had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things. And he just could not adapt himself to the country.

I know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost. Whatever we had, it is never the same. It never was good enough. Our daughter would never have what we had in childhood.

I said, "For goodness sakes, who cares? We are alive. How many people are dead already? We are here. It is a new country. We will make what we want to make out of it."

I started from $25 a week. And in New York I was making $1,100 a week. That is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it, and you work. And if you don't have a negative attitude.

293 But he could not. Even when we had a nice home in California, with beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see Catalina Island and everything. He said, "No; at our house we had 30 people for dinner every day." It is awful. He never could get adjusted to it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; he wasn't. He was always—you see, I understand from talking to doctors—he was off for quite a while, which I didn't know. I didn't know it. And it never occurred to me. We were brought up maybe 200 years set back. This was the husband, and that is the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it is that is how it is going to stay. So it never occurred to me there could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. In fact, my brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find out why he should have such an attitude, but I laughed at my brother.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us a little bit—you came to this country. Did you and your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We were supposed to. We had auditions with Moss and Hart, very successful. And we were almost ready to have a contract in the Rainbow Room. And then I became pregnant with my little girl. And that really shattered us to pieces. We are awfully happy to have a child, but that was not the time to have the child. We had to leave everything in China, because we had to cross all Japan. So that was—at the time it was just like a tragedy. And after she was born, I could never dance.

Mr. Jenner. Now, after the birth of your daughter, did you—what did you do to sustain your family?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I stayed home for 1 year. We just lived on whatever he made. Because I wanted to bring her up—I don't believe in nurses. I like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in whatever a little baby should be trained.

But then I saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and more depressed, and is getting worse. He just didn't care. He had that attitude, "I don't care." I said if that is his attitude, if I don't do something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. So I started to think. What could I do? I spoke English, but crazy pigeon English.

I couldn't do anything architecturally, because I don't know the terminology. I can automatically make the drawings, but I would not be able to render it. It would be impossible for me to have anything.

And then actually, without knowing anything, I became a model. I had two lessons, and I pretended that I was very experienced. I fooled everybody. And I somehow got a job as a model.

And then—at one place it didn't work out, because it was very depressing and horrible atmosphere. On Seventh Avenue it is no joke.

I have a couple of firms that are fantastic. And then I switched to Leeds Ltd. And within 1 year, from modeling, from 25, I became in charge of the showroom. I was selling, I was selecting fabrics, and became a stylist.

And then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and I have been with them for 7 years.

But to start with, I worked 7 days a week. I worked even Sunday, until 1 o'clock—that is how hard I worked.

And the very same firm paid me in 1957 to design a collection for them, the same clothes I did 10 years ago—$500 for 5 days, for 4½ days. So you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. Only in the United States.

That is what Marina—that is why I get mad with her. I told her, "Marina, look at me."

Mr. Jenner. I want to get to that. But I would like to cover this background first.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, my daughter had asthma. She is a very allergic child. And her health was really terrible. In spite of all the care given to her, she just could not stand the New York climate. And our family doctor said the only way to save her—she was getting really sick from antibiotics and penicillin—is to change the climate.

So I was very anxious to change the climate—going to California, that was my aim.

But I could not reach California. Mr. Gold, of Nardis Sportswear in New York, wanted to open a suit department. And, of course, the buyers did know me all over the country—the same buyers—recommended to get in touch with me and engage me. And it was pretty good. It was $20,000 a year, plus two trips to Europe, with expenses paid, and about $7,000 to buy the models—you just cannot go in and look at the shows.

So I decided I am going to go and do it. And Texas is better climatewise than New York.

And, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left New York. It is a fantastic change.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I came in the summer, and then I had to go immediately to Europe. And he came over in the fall, when my daughter returned from camp. He came over in the fall, and then shipped all the furniture.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; he went to visit my brother for holidays. We always tried to go to California instead of going to Miami, to be with my brother. And he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move to California. So we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate something while I finish my contract. My contract was expiring in the spring of 1954.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; then I would go there, also, also in the late spring or early summer—maybe he can locate something in the meanwhile, in California.

And then I was very lucky. It was Mr. Gold's tough luck. But it was good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. There was a tremendous scandal. And he had two buildings—he lost one of the buildings. In other words, he could not afford even to go into the suit operation, and go ahead with it. So he was very glad that I asked for release, and he was glad to give it to me. He thought I am going to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract before. And I was very glad. It worked out very nice for me. We remained good friends. And then I went to California.

295 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Style Garments. They are out of business now. The owners were interested in real estate. And they went into real estate. So the firm closed up.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Actually living in one spot—that was 1954. I think it was 1955, spring, I received an offer from Dallas, to fly just for 2 or 3 weeks, and design a collection of suits. It was for I. Clark. That was wonderful.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. On and off. I just went for a few weeks. You see, I designed a suit collection, and I went back. And then they asked me to come over and do some more dresses. So I started to go there back and forth. And also, at the same time, going to New York to buy fabrics for the firm, and at the same time I decided, well, if I do that, I might do the same type of work in New York. If I can fly to New York to buy fabrics, I can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand dollars.

I designed a collection for Handmacher. I designed a collection for Leeds. One week I got $1,100. So you can see what can happen.

But that really was getting me. Because it went on until 1956 fall. I was on the plane more than off the plane. And it wasn't very good for my daughter. She was already 14, 15.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, no; how could I? She was going to school all the time.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I took up permanent residence at the time when I told my husband I am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of 1956.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She was 15. And I have a reason for doing that, because I just couldn't do it to her father. He would be completely killed. The only thing left—he doesn't have any relatives at all. He doesn't have a single soul in this world. In fact, I tell you—in the divorce case, I insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her money, he will have money to live on, too.

If I took the daughter, I could not give him money to live on—he wouldn't take it. But if he had custody of the child then she will be provided for, and he could still keep on going with that.

So that was the thing. But it worked out the other way—when he completely turned in rage. He even, when I flew to California he wouldn't let me see her. I had to get a sheriff to see her. Now, I understand.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. He was, on and off, and finally he is there. He seems to be incurable.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I had both girls for a while. You know, she eloped, his little girl.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and I wanted to break that marriage right away, and get her back in school, and spank her—really tough. But the parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. It was no love—it was just delinquency. She didn't know who I was. She thought I will be easy going—knowing her father, she thought I was easy going. And all of a sudden she came in. She had to study, she had to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with I have to meet first. So she couldn't possibly—I talked to her just last year. I said, "Tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought I would be very easy. And you certainly didn't like the way I was strict with you."

But I was strict with my daughter, also. And she was older than she was. And she would not go out until she brought the young man to introduce. And then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my present husband.

She was 19 already. That little kid was just 14 or 15. So I could not possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much older.

Sometimes I think maybe if I wasn't so strict with her, maybe—you never know with children.

Mr. Jenner. Well, now, Mr. De Mohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra, is now married.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I tell you. He is a terrific person, absolutely terrific. He has a soul of gold. I really mean it. And sometimes he drives me so crazy, I can just smash his head, because he is so impatient. He is extremely impatient. He is always in a hurry. You have to be 10 times faster than he is in order to have everything quiet. That is about the only quality that I would not like—he is just always in a hurry. He is always rushing somewhere, and everything has to be just immediately. Never a second late.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I tell you. I like—inside—I think he is much better inside than outside. He is a good-looking man. And women find him fantastically attractive. I don't. I like his personality. I think he is wonderful. He feels—he is nice with people, he is nice with animals. I don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate harm.

He can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may hurt them. He may do that.

But he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. So by speaking like that—for instance, he can make a joke about a person, really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person.

And, later on, when I tell him, he agrees with me. But it was already said. And especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully hurt. And he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing people, which some people appreciate and some people don't.

I personally don't appreciate teasing, and I don't appreciate—I don't think it is necessary. He thinks it is very funny. I don't think it is funny at all. That is the thing. Through that, I am sure he has a couple of people that don't like him very well. I don't think they hate him. The only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife, because of the children.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. She was so hateful, that nothing could just soften her or break her down—nothing, nothing, nothing. No matter how he tried, no matter how I tried, nothing. It is a blank wall. Such hatred, such venom and such hatred. It is impossible.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is why it is so wonderful when he told me that she spoke nicely about him. It was a wonderful surprise. It is for the first time, really. It was a very pleasant surprise. So we have hope—maybe she is growing up. You don't have to be grown up to grow up.

Mr. Jenner. What are your husband's political views? Now, I mean political with a capital P. I don't mean Democrat or Republican politics. I mean political in the grand sense.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In the grand sense—I would say he is a real Democrat, for democracy. But, also, you see, both of us—we don't believe that every country should have the same government, because each country—a certain government will be good for one country, and would be completely awful for another.

For instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries may need that. They may live better, happier, until they grow up a little more to handle themselves. So we don't—I would say we are very, very flexible on this point, both of us—very flexible. It just depends what is the best for the people. If people are ready and able to have a complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world. But it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off, because some countries get lost—they still have to be guided.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely. He doesn't have to be here. He has friends all over the world. And—we live out more than in. Why do we come back? What is the reason? Just because we like it.

Gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the United States. We are aiming for the San Francisco area, northern California. That is where we would love. We love swimming, the ocean. That is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it ourselves, in the place we want to. Not just to hop around.

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

The testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt was taken at 9 a.m., on April 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I worked simultaneously, held two jobs at the same time.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in 1957; fall. That is when I returned. I couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. I switched to dresses.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember the people at Judy Bond. Could be one of them, maybe. Maybe he was with Greer.

Mr. Jenner. The records reflect that you were employed there as a designer in the fall of 1957.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Maybe it was with Nancy Greer. There were two—Mr. Littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. Maybe that is him. I don't remember the names.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You remember when I told you I flew in and designed a collection for him? And at the same time for Leeds Limited. The same year.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't 1956. It was 1957. No. Leeds was 1956. Judy Bond was 1957, and Nancy Greer was 1957. You are right.

Mr. Jenner. Then you worked for Martins in 1942, 1944, and 1945, and in the fall of 1946?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you cannot call it exactly working. You see, we have in New York, they celebrate Jewish holidays, 3 days. And instead of staying home, I went and I worked in retail store, which happens to be Martins.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it was a store in Brooklyn. I knew buyers very well. And it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, on the floor. That was the general idea.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I just want to be sure about the time. 1942, 1944, and 1945.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It sounds more or less correct. But I don't remember for sure.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. It must be before 1947, because when I switched to my next firm, I didn't do it any more. I just couldn't combine it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe it was one of my very first ones. I don't remember which one was first. Just a very, very, short time, a couple of months. I remember I worked for Lombardy when Pearl Harbor happened. That was December 7. I will never forget it.

Mr. Jenner. I should take it chronologically. What was the company for which you worked in 1953?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From then on, I moved to California, and I started to work for Style Garment, Los Angeles.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was 1954, and I think it lasted not too long, just until Christmas. And then I had nothing at all until I had an offer from Clark in the spring of 1955.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was my first job with Clark, because I worked for Nardis before.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. For Clark, on and off almost until our trip, our walking trip to Central America. I worked with them until 1960.

Mr. Jenner. Then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and summer and fall of 1960?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was just fall. We started October 6. We left Dallas on October 6 or October 5.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And we returned to Dallas fantastically close to the same date—in the very first days of October. I worked for another company for one season, 6 months, Justin McCarthy, before our trip.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was summer, just before we went on our trip. I believe it was June, July, and August, September, maybe too. 1960. I worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip.

Mr. Jenner. And you got back in 1961. Then did you return to work when you got back?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't, because we thought we are going to go back to Haiti in 6 weeks. The contract that my husband was negotiating was supposed to materialize within 6 weeks. And I was stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. So, naturally, I could not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. You start and cannot drop it. And then it was dragging and dragging and dragging, and actually took a year instead of 6 weeks to materialize the whole thing.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; fortunately it did. Because I was badly hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off on this, and he couldn't do very much, either.

Mr. Jenner. But you went to work—you did return to work before you went to Haiti?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but a short time. I just did it because we needed to do it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Millinery. I was working in the millinery department, Sanger and Harris, Preston Center, Dallas.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Before we left for the east, before we made a trip east. And we left 19 April. We drove off from Dallas. Nineteenth of April we left Dallas. Instead of staying a week or 10 days as we planned, because George had so much trouble with his little girl, and then he was also in Washington.

We returned almost at the last days of May. I had 2 days to pack the whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and God knows—we almost went crazy, you know. We did it all in 2 days. And then we drove back to Miami, because we had to ship a car. Grace Line wasn't going to Haiti any more. So we drove to Miami, and we flew over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with everything.

Mr. Jenner. From the time you left for Haiti from Miami, which, I think, was on the second of June——

Mr. Jenner. 2 June 1963, have you been back to the United States other than this trip you have now made to testify?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; we have been a couple of days in San Juan about 10 days ago. That is as close as we came to the United States. In fact, we didn't leave the country at all.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the period of time when your present husband was on a mission for the International Cooperation Administration in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I joined him there. I forgot exactly the date. Right after my collection was opened, right after I finished designing—I joined him—it was supposed to be only 6 weeks, it was my vacation. But within this time these letters were sent out by my husband. I had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and they have somebody else. Of course, when I returned, I went back with this firm again. But at that particular time I lost the job.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or 10 days. It wasn't very long. He was switched from one area to another. He worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. And then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. It was Petrovaz, a little town.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think it was a few weeks or so. Then he had time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to Milicher. That was an old king's palace converted into a hotel. Did he tell you they had been shooting at us in Yugoslavia?

Mr. Jenner. When you were at the shore? Yes; he said something about that. But I would like to have you tell me about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we don't like public beaches. We like to be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature—nothing that already will be prepared for us. So we took—in the morning we took a walk in the mountains. We climbed the mountains.

In the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. And it was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast—the most beautiful spot in the world. And the mountains—we saw something that looked like a fortification. I noticed a ladder standing there. So we were rowing and pointing to it. And all of a sudden we hear shots. We thought it was old fortifications from Italian time, or whatever they were. But they were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested in it. They were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing this, go away further. And we had to really go very far out in the sea.

He didn't want to. He said, "At least if they shoot at us, I want to do something to them—this way we are just lost at sea. Nobody would know a single thing happened to us." He didn't want to row out.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My husband. I said that is silly, I don't want to be shot like a chicken. Go out to the sea and we will go back to the shore. I want to make a complaint. And we rowed out. He rowed out—his bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. The current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it was very difficult.

So when we came back he talked to some people over there. They said, "They shoot at us, too. If accidentally you wander too close to Brioni, the villa where Tito lives—they shoot at us, too." That wasn't enough. We went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a little island. We left the canoe.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. This was a canoe. The first time was a rowboat. So we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front of a beautiful cave, and I was taking his photograph standing in the water in front of another cave. It was beautiful—just like a curtain drape. And301 all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from me in the water. So, of course, we went right under the water in the cave and we were sitting there—what are we going to do? We are quite far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. We thought, well, they shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and talk with us. So we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk to us, but nobody came.

So we sat for a couple of hours. Finally, we got disgusted. So we dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. Somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. And this time he really got angry. He made complaint to the government, and some of their officials came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was another accident. The little island we thought was completely empty, not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. So that is what happened to us in Yugoslavia.

When George told me the American people thought he was making sketches of something, I said I can understand the Yugoslavs thinking such things, but I said I couldn't understand about the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. Well, they don't know at the time. They just see somebody doing some sketching.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; just like in Haiti, every day—he went for a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with Nero.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is the one that made the trip. So, of course, Haitians—they almost called him Longaron—that is a werewolf, Lougrow. So that could get him in trouble, too. But Haitians are very mild people. They just enjoyed it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. He stayed there much longer. He returned in November, because I remember right after he returned Clark was in New York.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And in fact he went with me to meet him at the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me into going back to Texas, which I wanted anyway. So then we returned together to Texas. We went to visit his brother first, in Dartmouth.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and then we drove slowly—we drove through Florida, because I had never been in Florida, never saw it—St. Augustine. We have a convertible car always, so we like to drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. And then through Pensacola, through New Orleans. We stopped in New Orleans, with his old, old friends, the Crumps, but they are dead now, I believe. They have tremendous gardenia gardens there. We arrived Thanksgiving Day at Dallas.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, to make—he was working for some people, for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and he made some reports. In fact, his reports were printed even in the National Geographic. He did very good research. And the things he said now came true. They discovered a tremendous amount of oil in Nigeria.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. They are not the same, but they are close. He was in Ghana, Togoland, and Nigeria. You see, you can trace the lines throughout302 the whole world by the formations. It is a fascinating business. If it wouldn't be too late for me, I would switch to that now. It is a fantastic business.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In fact, I try to help him whenever I can. I draw maps. Just now I made for him some maps in the Dominican Republic about this nickel mine and everything. He couldn't have it photostated. They were too old. So I sit down and draw it any time I can, because I really love that.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us without too much elaboration particularly about your trip down through Mexico and Central America.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I tell you, it is a trip I will never forget, as long as we live. And I don't think we ever had a more exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us.

Of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy with George's little boy. So we didn't care what will happen to us—we get killed or not killed—the only thing we worry about Nero being an orphan if something happen to us.

But it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little trails, old Camino Reales, old Spanish trails. And they planned it so well, at the end of each day we always found water. We never carried water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. We always took water supply in the afternoon. And we also tried to buy his corn in the afternoon, his dinner.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. Like high octane gas. And it took us about 5½ months through Mexico. Then it was Guatemala, Salvador. It really was very interesting.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not yet. After Salvador, we were trying to cross by boat directly to Nicaragua, because we didn't want to make that horrible big corner in Honduras, but we couldn't. So we had to go through Honduras and then Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama. And then we were planning to spend another year and go all the way to Chile. And we would. We were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. We were thin like rails. And George has never been that thin in his life. He was in good physical shape. But the torrential rains—we were almost swept out a couple of times. And we would have to wait 6 months in Panama in order to proceed. We couldn't take that much time from our life, from our work. So I talked him into going to Haiti. He was going to return to Dallas. And I didn't want to.

Mr. Jenner. Before you get to Haiti—was that purely a business trip—I mean a pleasure trip?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot of minerals on the way. And he sent them—he had been sending them to be safe. And they were all lost. A tremendous amount of minerals. We found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such perfect crystallization. And they are all gone, all lost.

But we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, because it is fascinating. We couldn't take much time for anything, because we only had 6 months' visa through Mexico.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. A tourist visa, 6 months. We were up on the border—that means we have to fly to Mexico City to extend it, it would be too much trouble. We were sort of in a hurry.

But in Guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. There was a volcano erupting. Hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. Can you imagine what is an erupting volcano? I was dreaming about that since I was this big, that I want to see a volcano, I want to look in the crater. So we climbed every volcano. And this one was erupting. The lava was gushing down. We have303 photographs and movies. I am from the red lava a yard away, just burning. And poor little Nero—my hair is standing on my head from the heat. It was a fascinating sight. Then we walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there any consideration other than you have indicated, any purpose—I will put it that way—of your trip other than you have indicated?

Mr. Jenner. Did it have any connection with any government, any agency, or any government?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I know you have to ask these questions, but there was none at all, absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. Now, while you were making your trip down through Mexico and the Central American countries, the Bay of Pigs invasion occurred, did it not?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. But we noticed something very funny. We noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. They looked like American boys. And then when we—we had——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In Guatemala City. We have all our mail always sent to the American Embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, asked them to hold it. They have been wonderful about it. So the minute we arrived to the city—we leave our mule and go right away to the Embassy to pick up our mail. And it was very funny. There was such a commotion, such confusion in the American Embassy, we just remarked about it. They were running around, busy, busy. I forgot the name of the American consul. He was on the phone all the time, such a confusion was going on.

So we noticed that. And we noticed those funny looking boys running around. I thought they were Canadian boys. And later on we learned that there was an invasion.

Mr. Jenner. There was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and you were in Mexico that there was a Russian mission?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was exactly the time when Alexandra eloped. We were two weeks in Mexico City. George was on business. And there was also a Russian exhibit which we missed in New York.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Do you have a date when she eloped—sometime in November.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to get to the year now. 1959 must be. I think it was 1959.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe it was November 1959, to my best belief. I cannot be sure.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was very simple. We had dinner with the presidential pilot and some other friends.

304 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Captain Gordunio Nounio. I can't spell the name. Can we just say presidential pilot?

Mr. Jenner. Whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. Now, you have to tell us how to spell it. Spell it phonetically, as you understand it.

They were giving him—the Mexicans were giving him a big farewell reception sort of party at the airport. And, of course, it was guarded, and nobody could get in there. He said, would you like to see Mikoyan? I said, of course I would.

I said, of course, we would like to see him. It would be a lot of fun to see somebody from real Russia, not just the immigrants. So then George wanted to go, too, to start with. And I said, "You better don't go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. If I go, they know very well I cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt you businesswise." People in Texas are very narrow-minded.

So I went in the morning. He picked me up at the hotel. We went to that reception. I did it out of sheer curiosity. I wanted to see the crowd, I wanted to see the people, I was looking at women. It was, of course, pathetic. Women don't even look like women.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The Russian women, at the reception. The Russians are supposed to be good-looking people. They were not even good looking. There was only one man that was good looking. He was in some kind of uniform. I don't know what his rank or what it is, because I don't know the uniforms. There was only one handsome man in the whole tremendous crowd. And then we went all the way to the plane. I was with the captain, and he was very close—very good friend of Mikoyan. We came over. I didn't say one word in Russian all the time, I was speaking English. And then we came over to the plane.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. To the airport, when he was already leaving, after making all the speeches and everything. We went with the captain to say goodbye to Mikoyan, at the plane. They had the Russian plane standing there, the cameras, TV's. And he introduced me to Mikoyan, this is my friend Señora De Mohrenschildt. And I take his hand and said——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I told him in Russian, how are you, Tovarish Mikoyan. And he was so shocked, because I didn't look like a Russian, I looked like a fashion plate, and spoke English all the time. And all of a sudden, I deliberately—it was sort of a prank. He almost fainted. It was fantastic. I didn't make any secrets. I told about it in Dallas to everybody.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You had no prior association with Mr. Mikoyan, or any member of the Russian mission when you went to Mexico—you had not anticipated the presence of the Russian mission?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We didn't know that they were there, absolutely. George went on his business. It just happened to be that they had this exhibit there, and it happens to be that Mikoyan was there—I think they were offering a lot of money to the Mexican Government, and the Mexican Government refused it. They didn't take it. But they have been on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it—they just didn't accept it, they didn't accept his proposal.

And we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the presidential pilot.

Mr. Jenner. I see. All right. We have obtained, either from you or from your husband, the marriage date of Alexandra.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That happened within those 2 weeks we were in Mexico City.

305 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. We were trying to go by boat. We went to Colon, to get the boat. There was no boat. So we had to fly.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The main purpose was to rest, and another purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, 75-year-old man that according to his letters to George, he loved him like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. So I told George, if we don't go now, we might never see him.

Mr. Jenner. But that was—that visit to Haiti at that time was to visit this gentleman?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think it is Lake Charles. They changed in the last month. They never know which port. We were met by friends over there, the Savages.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And we crossed straight to their house, stayed with them a few days. Then a friend of ours loaned us a car and we drove to Dallas. And then he came over and picked up the car.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period when you met the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. But I want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the nature of the Russian colony in Dallas at that time.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You see, I wouldn't classify it as a colony. There are some odds-and-ends Russian people.

Mr. Jenner. I am using a reference to identify a more or less heterogeneous group of people in Dallas who had a measure of common interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had been born or had a relatively immediate contact with Russia.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you see, there are two types of Russian people there—some that came in after the revolution, and there are some new ones that escaped during the Second World War, from Germany.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to classify who was before and who came in later.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I know, the latest arrivals to the United States was, of course—Marina was, and I think there was another one, Declan Ford.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. She was on What's My Life, or something, a306 dramatic story. She married an American boy, and he rescued her, and so on and so forth. They came over and lived in Dallas. His name was Skotnicki, and then they divorced. I think he was Polish. He was a nice fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage broke up.

Mr. Jenner. There were at this time in Dallas some people of Russian derivation. Some had come directly from Russia—that is, in the sense that they were caught up in the vortex of the Second World War.

Mr. Jenner. Taken by the Germans and brought to Germany, and when the war ended, they met American boys, and married them.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but that is the only one I know. I don't know of anybody else.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. For instance, one of them—she was never even in Russia—that type of Russian colony. She was married to an American man.

Mr. Jenner. Well, this is a group that had common interests—interested in each other?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Of course, they all criticize each other. Some people were closer, some people were further apart. They were not exactly all friends—I will put it that way.

Mr. Jenner. Let's see—you had been there—well, you were off and on commencing in 1953, and then relatively permanently commencing in 1957.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as people came to Dallas, that is persons with this history, did you people—and I don't mean just you alone, but I am talking about the whole group—become interested in them, seek to meet them, become acquainted?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, if anybody heard that there was all of a sudden a new Russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people they are. And, of course, if they were destitute or something—and none of them were really—only Marina was—then we helped them.

But there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you generally—were you advised normally in advance that somebody new was coming?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. In fact, they were talking about Marina for months to us. I said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. They were talking for a couple of months.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we found out about her actually through, I believe, George Bouhe. I think George probably told you the name.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Max Clark, too, because they lived in Fort Worth. Max Clark and Gali Clark. And actually George Bouhe was very active. He is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity things. He is the one that organizes things like that. So he said he even had a fund for them—the people would give money—because he gave money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, it wasn't very much—maybe $20; something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you receive, also, some money from George Bouhe for anything else with respect to the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I take it from what you have said, that you were wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that Marina and Lee were coming to the Fort Worth-Dallas area before they came. You knew nothing about it?

Mr. Jenner. Had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been in Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Before, and then had married her, and come back, he attempted to defect?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; nothing at all—in spite that it was in some press somewhere—I believe it was printed.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any discussion among you people, any of you—Bouhe, Clark, and Meller, Voshinins, Mamantov, Gravitis, Dymitruk, Raigorodsky——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is a character—Dymitruk was also imported recently. I think after we were there.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I mean he arrived—I call him imported. He was really a sad sack.

Mr. Jenner. It may be important to us that you don't. But the part I want to emphasize here is—if it is the truth—I don't want to put any words in your mouth—that you had no advance notice that either of these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, never heard anything?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what we know; yes. I don't think anybody knew anything at all. All of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. And, actually, who discovered them for the first time, I don't even know that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot even tell. I would like to know, myself, now, how it came about.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. My recollection is that he finally—we were sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. So, finally—I don't remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us for the first time. That is how it happened.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And I told him, Bouhe, at that particular time, we were financially not very well off, and I could not contribute any money, but I had time and a car, and I could take the baby to the clinic, and I could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort I would be glad to do.

Mr. Jenner. We might digress a moment. In the summer of 1962 you and your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we were draining pretty well, because for a year we didn't make any money, on our trip.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and petroleum engineer. He is not a man who likes to concentrate on business, finances, is he?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I would say he is pretty good with money. I am the one—I made money too easily, so I squandered money. He doesn't. But you see I always had a steady income. He doesn't have a steady income. He308 has an assignment for 2 or 3 weeks, he has very good money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in.

He may have within a year two or three fantastic things—go to Ghana, go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money.

But then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. So he learned when he has something to hold onto it.

Mr. Jenner. So there were periods when his financial situation was good, so he was high?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That is how we took our trip, because we were very fortunate before our trip—he had an assignment in Ghana, and he made some money, and I was making very good money, so we thought we can afford it. Besides he almost lost his mind. We had to go on that trip.

Mr. Jenner. Then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not as affluent?

Mr. Jenner. But at this particular time, you were not in a position to assist the Oswalds financially in any material sense?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Not them—actually with Marina, because we couldn't do much for Oswald—just talk to a couple of people about him, and maybe get him a job. But even the job he had—I don't know who got it—I think it was an agency that got him the job he had.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the name of the firm. He worked in a darkroom.

Mr. Jenner. You are not clear in your mind, I take it, that when you first met the Oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home or——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I really don't remember. And, believe me, I had enough time to think about it. I was trying to remember every little detail that can be useful. I cannot still remember exactly how it came about—whether they were brought to our house. I don't think we drove and got them for the first time. Maybe we took them back, you know, to Fort Worth. It could be. I don't know.

Of course, they had the baby with them. They always had to bring the baby—couldn't leave the baby with anyone.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never entered their home in Fort Worth. George, I think, did once. George walked in, because Lee was asleep, I think, when we brought Marina—so he maybe walked in the house—because he went out to the door. I never did. They lived somewhere—there was a tremendous store, Montgomery Ward or something.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I think it was Montgomery Ward. I don't remember. That is where they lived. It was a miserable-looking house. That is what I saw. A wooden building.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I wouldn't say they were completely starving, but they were quite miserable—quite, quite miserable, you know. Even if they were not destitute, the personality that Lee had would make anybody miserable to live with.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Disagreeable. He was very, very disagreeable, and disappointed. He is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. And he was sort of withdrawn within himself. And his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what Marina had, because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely—see people, how nice they are? And she is always telling me—the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. He was offensive with the people. And I can understand why, and maybe I was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. He could never give her what the people were showering on her. So that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he worked—and he worked very hard. He worked overtime, he used to come in at 11 o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home, he started reading again. So he was not running around.

He didn't drink, he didn't smoke. He was just hard working, but a very difficult personality.

And usually offensive at people because people had an offensive attitude to him.

I don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, he could have killed us.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. We saw her with a black eye once.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other."

Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she separate from Oswald—what is she going to do? She doesn't know the language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along with Oswald's family.

Mr. Jenner. You learned through Marina and Oswald, also, that they didn't get along well with their——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I cannot say through them, because maybe people talked about it, you know. She couldn't live in her sister-in-law's home, they didn't get along. And I understand that later on somebody mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. She slept in the morning.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She is lazy. You see, there are people that actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really can't. She is lazy, and I know it, because she stayed once overnight.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; with the baby. And I tell you—if I stay with somebody overnight, I will jump up the first thing in the morning, see what I can do to help, knowing I will be doing everything.

She didn't. She slept. I actually had to waken her up. She did the same thing—she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. Because when her teeth310 were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. She was the same way—very lazy. And I just couldn't understand it—a young person. Maybe she was ill. We talked about it—maybe we have just too much energy. For a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active.

The proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning English, in spite I gave her the records, and we gave her one of our little phonographs. I had beautiful records to learn English—I bought them in New York when I arrived.

Mr. Jenner. Is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning English, or did Oswald object to her learning English?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. According to her Oswald objected, and he also told us himself that he wants to speak with her in Russian, because he doesn't want to forget Russian.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He didn't want to forget his Russian. That was his reason—not to let his wife learn English—because she was the only person he could speak Russian to.

Mr. Jenner. He could still speak Russian to her, even though she learned English, couldn't he?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, that is what we told him. We said, "You are crippling her, she has to learn English. She cannot live in this country without the language, she cannot do anything."

But he never appeared to be violent or anything. He was a little violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your wife and child away. That is the only time he showed real nastiness.

You reached the point where you and your husband took Marina and the child out of the home and away from Oswald against his objections.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Against his objections. Actually, we talked him into doing it peacefully.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people—they put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or 3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely.

And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right. We thought that a separation for them—they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were.

In fact, Bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. He was always afraid of Lee. Naturally, being a bachelor—perhaps, Bouhe's type of person is afraid of his own shadow—there are people like that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is it. Lots of things contribute to the personality.

311 Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both Marina and Lee about their difficulties?

Mr. Jenner. Now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any—as to her dissatisfaction?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, there was quite a few reasons. And I tell you—it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak so, how you say it—so boldy, about sex, for instance. I was shocked by it, you know—because in my times, even I was twice as old as she.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. She just—and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay enough attention to her.

And the second reason, he was cruel with her—for instance, she likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. Any little argument or something—like once something—she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat her for it. And, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. She liked wine very much. She wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes to drink wine. And he would object to that, too. And that was their main disagreements.

And then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. He loved that child. You should see him looking at the child, he just changed completely. He thought that she was not too good with the child. The child was already spoiled to no end. Every time the child makes a noise, she picked it up. If she is not there in a second to pick the child up, Lee is after her—why is the baby crying? And the baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her or Lee. Nobody could pick her up. And she is constantly with her. She had the child with her all the time, from our observations. She just couldn't take it. It was very, very difficult. And still at the same time, she didn't do much to free herself from it.

Mr. Jenner. What were Marina's personal habits? Was she clean and neat? Did she keep her home clean and neat? Or did her laziness spill over into those areas?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, it was halfway, because it seems to be neat, and still not very—she was not a woman to arrange the home or make a home. I don't think so. And I don't know enough about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. So what can you make a home out of, nothing. You cannot really judge. You cannot. I am sure if she has things to do it with, I am sure she will.

At that particular time, she could not. She didn't have enough things to make a home. The apartments they were living in in Dallas were miserable, very, very poor.

When they were planning to move in Dallas, from Fort Worth, when I took her—the baby to the clinic, I was trying to find for them a little apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, University Park, or somewhere, knowing that I cannot race every time she needs something with the car to help them.

Lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from everybody, from all these people. They lived in Oak Cliff—God knows where from us. Maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other people to put their nose in his home. I don't think he had anything against us because we were with Marina. But I don't think he liked very much that Bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people give her so many things. Maybe that is why.

I said, "For God sakes, if we are to help them, I cannot race to Oak Cliff to help them with this or that"—if she had to go to the doctor. Why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier for me to help her.

I don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. That was everybody's impression. For some particular reason, he moved all the way out.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I told you as much as I can. At the same time, in spite she is lazy—well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. But she was a very, very pleasant girl. And she loved life, and she loved the United States, absolutely. We would drive on the streets, she would just—oh, that is the United States.

That is maybe why I like her, because she give me the impression she felt like I felt when I came in. She said she was always dreaming to come to the United States. She looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the town of Minsk. There was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. And she saw that house and thought, "How wonderful if I just go there to visit in that apartment house."

And Lee happened to be living there. And I think Lee was sick. And she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. That is how they met.

And I don't know—but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back.

On the other hand, he was also disappointed. He wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him.

Mr. Jenner. From your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I asked him, "Why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?"

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was Oswald's answer. "I didn't find what I was looking for."

So, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our Government was wonderful to help him at the time. And he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. He paid it back, I think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. Those are the things.

And I don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. And that made me a little mad. Nobody said anything good about him. He had a lot of good qualities. He had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible Ruby—Oswald had a lot of good qualities. And if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know—maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. I don't know whether he did or not, anyway. But he would not be involved in it.

But I have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging.

313 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She did. She ribbed him so, that if I would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. I would not do it. Because I could see——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that.

Mr. Jenner. When you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. That is a conclusion.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Let me try to remember exactly. Don't forget, I am telling right now impressions. It is very difficult to remember exact words. But certain things led to leave that impression in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, it happens that you and George, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the Oswalds than anybody else.

And what I am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. But what I want to tell you—I don't think it is correct. We didn't see them more than anybody else. In fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us—she stayed once overnight. And they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. I cannot exactly tell how many times. But you can count it on your fingers how many times. And usually it was when finally I find the time and I said come over and I will make dinner for you, or something like that, because I knew they were not eating very well.

He didn't care for it at all, but she did. She liked to eat well, and good things. So that was the only occasion we saw them.

So I think other people saw them even more. For instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and Oswald respected your husband.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He did. He respected him, and he respected me. And maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. He never was respectful. Once, as I said, he was a little—showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him.

I said, "Lee, where will that get you? If you really love Marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." And he sort of boiled and boiled. He sat quietly, you know. And he said, all right, he would not do it.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. Did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. That was one complaint. Another complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. In fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which I never heard of before, I didn't know such things can happen to people, you know.

We saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult—for instance, with the baby. I also objected that he didn't let her smoke. After all, she is supposed to be a grown woman. He was definitely domineering—it has to be just like he said and that is it. He always had a feeling that he is the boss, and she has to—just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. This man. So we objected to that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. You used the term "ribbing." This was not jocular, was it—not joking? It was irritating?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was irritating. That he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading.

314 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in a way, yes. She said things that will hurt men's pride. That definitely was.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think what else she said. Also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. That was very important. Because—and I know—I told you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable, also.

But still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was—I remember the Clarks invited them for dinner, and Lee answered the phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other plans. He probably didn't want to go there. That is all it was. But you don't talk like that to people. So Marina objected to that. She told that to me.

There were several other occasions similar to that. For instance, he could not stand George Bouhe. He just could not stand him. And, in a way, I don't blame him. I can't stand him, either—that type of a person. He is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. But I don't like that type of personality. He absolutely could not stand him.

You know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their hands for it. And some people do charity, and they are very glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. This is the kind of charity I believe in. Bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him after that. But Oswald didn't.

And that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. Bouhe asked Marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that Oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or God knows what. He was that kind of person. I think that was the main thing, that Oswald was rude to people helping him.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In which way? Overall political, or any particular incidents?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think definitely he was a Marxist, ideologist Marxist. I don't think he was a Communist from the way I would understand a Communist. We didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to any party at all. I don't think he even belonged to a party in Russia, because that was—oh, this is very important.

His objection—the things that he didn't like in Russia was those horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. He said that you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings—they drive people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. They have to go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. So I don't think he was—according to that, I don't think he was interested in a party, or belonging to anything.

It was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he was actually involved in doing something for Castro, selling leaflets or something, in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. Now, something occurred in Easter, 1963 when you went to visit them?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, to my best recollection it was Saturday before Easter. By the way, the first time they talked to us about it, I completely mixed all the dates. I thought it was in the fall. But it was the day I remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for the baby.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; it was in the evening. I think we were playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then I decided we will be busy tomorrow, and I wanted to take the rabbit to the baby.

315 And we came over late at night. It was 10 o'clock, or maybe later. And I remember they gave us something to drink.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think they were halfway in bed already, because the house was dark. I remember we banged on the door. It was dark.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was their last apartment—not Elsbeth, but the other one. I have the address, Elsbeth address. But the other address I don't have. It is just around the corner.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Upstairs. There was a little terrace, and a big tree growing right next to the terrace.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. Jenner. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house—that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.

Mr. Jenner. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the316 closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet—you saw a rifle?

Mr. Jenner. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?

Mr. Jenner. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.

Mr. Jenner. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action, but I would not know.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She said, "Oh, he just loves to shoot." I said, "Where on earth does he shoot? Where can he shoot?" When they lived in a little house. "Oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." But it didn't strike me too funny, because I personally love skeet shooting. I never kill anything. But I adore to shoot at a target, target shooting.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. But he was taking the baby out. He goes with her, and that was his amusement.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. That wasn't strange to me, because any time I go to an amusement park I go to the rifles and start shooting. So I didn't find anything strange.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in Dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know it was a high-powered rifle. I had no idea. I don't even know right now. Is it a high-powered rifle? Or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the Oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in Russia?

317 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In fact, we never even knew that he was a sharpshooter or something. We never knew about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No discussion at all. She just said, we are so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. This is what she told me. And you know what happened after that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think the most important thing is, that crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, then, what did you do? Go into some other part of the house?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It wasn't very much. I believe it was only two rooms. And then I returned back, and told George—do you know what they have in the closet? I came back to the room, where George and Lee were sitting and talking. I said, do you know what they have in the closet? A rifle. And started to laugh about it. And George, of course, with his sense of humor—Walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. He said, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker by any chance?" And we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big George's joke. And later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at Walker.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when George made that remark in the presence of Lee Oswald, "Did you take a pot shot at Walker?" Did you notice any change——

Mr. Jenner. Please—I want only your reaction. Your husband has told me his. You noticed nothing?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not very long. I think we went on the terrace. And I don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. And we left. She got me some roses. They had a big rose tree right by the staircase. And she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. The baby was asleep.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I don't think so. What day was Easter, by the way? Do you remember—1963?

Mr. Jenner. I think Easter was late that year, but I am not certain. In any event, it was the day before Easter?

Mr. Jenner. When you left for New York, you were in New York a few weeks, a couple of weeks?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We spent about 6 weeks between New York, Washington, Philadelphia.

318 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; we didn't. We heard that they were already gone. I wanted to see them before we went to Haiti. But I understood that they were gone, or they were going. I had no time. So we didn't get in touch with them. But we had a card from them from New Orleans, with their address. But I don't think we ever wrote to them. I don't remember writing. We were going to send them a Christmas card.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall an occasion in February of 1963 when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of Everett Glover?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. And, in fact, we showed that film—the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. And he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple of friends. So we decided to have it. And then he mentioned he knew a woman, Ruth Paine.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and he said that would be very nice. I was sort of looking for American couples to introduce Lee and Marina to American people—not to Russian refugees—to get her out of that. So he mentioned that it would be very nice for Marina to meet this girl, and it was. She was a young woman, she was interested in Russian.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Ruth Paine. And that we thought was very good, because she could help Marina in English and Marina would help her in Russian, that it would work very well. From what I understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, Marina. She did a lot for her.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think maybe I did. I don't remember. I really don't remember.

Mr. Jenner. A few weeks before this, Marina and Lee had visited in your home, isn't that correct?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Met her the first time that evening, and we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful person. I thought that would be terrific for Marina to be close to somebody because I didn't have time. I just couldn't, and I don't have any patience. When I see somebody is clicking right away I respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. She was too slow, and we have too much problems with our own children.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Marina. We had too many problems with our own children, and I was just tired of it, you know. After all, she was not my child. I did everything I could, so let somebody else take over and do something else because I was too busy, and we were planning this trip. George—through next month to Haiti actually to seal this contract. We had our heads busy with other things.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. We just showed the movie and discussed it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life of Indians—or——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. From what I recall at that particular time, it was just Ruth Paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. I don't even remember who was there besides. I don't remember who was there.

319 There were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that worked with Everett.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were people there. I do believe, I think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. This time we showed movies twice at Everett's house, I believe. I think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house because they were interested in that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. She is teaching in a university, in Dallas University now. They like to travel a lot, too. I am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from Everett.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know, because it was always dark when the movies were shown, so I wasn't observing anybody.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't believe so. I think somebody else got them, because I think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we came in very late, I think. We arrived quite late that day.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; once we were late. I forgot which showing it was. We had a couple of people out of town. We invited them for dinner, and then we brought them over.

Mr. Jenner. Did you attend a combination Christmas and New Year's party in December of 1963 at the Fords?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know the date, but there was a party, and we attended it.

Mr. Jenner. Please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in December? Was it in the holiday period?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was in the holiday period, but was it December or was it early January, I don't remember.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. There were quite a lot of people from this Russian colony and among them there was a little Japanese girl. Do you know about Yaeko?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember her last name because we always called her Yaeko.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know whether she was working at the time or not, but she was imported by some American family. She came with the family. She is supposed to be from a very fine Japanese family. She was wealthy. It was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. I know she had only one day off, because I remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one day, Thursday, that we could invite her. Then she did some work with Neiman Marcus.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Then she was a musician. She played the Japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the Dallas Symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, Neiman Marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and she was participating in it.320 That is what we know about Yaeko. But then we heard that she was in New York.

To tell you frankly I never trusted Yaeko. I thought there was something fishy, maybe because I was brought up with Japanese, you know, and I knew what treachery it is, you know. I just somehow—she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating around, you know, and everything. There is another strange thing happened, too, with that Yaeko.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was very funny because they practically spent all evening together at that party, and Marina was furious, of course, about it. And the party that brought Yoico to the party was furious about it, too, and I don't blame him for it. And from what I understand, Marina told me that Oswald saw Yaeko after, which was very unusual, because I don't think Oswald wanted to see anyone, let's put it that way. He would rather just sit by himself and—locked in a house, not to see anyone. And, in fact, Marina was jealous of it, from Yaeko. She was the only person we know that Oswald really liked.

Mr. Jenner. Can you recall the names of the family with whom Yaeko—by whom Yaeko was employed?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Through Dallas. They know the people that actually introduced Yaeko. It will be Henry Rogatz who knows Yaeko very well.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Two people who can give you everything about Yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. Henry Rogatz, also in——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and I believe I have Lev's address in my phone book, if I need it. I can phone you. I don't know if we have Henry's address now. They are both very nice people, charming people.

Mr. Jenner. And leave a message at my hotel as to Mr. Aronson's address and telephone number, if you have it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and maybe we have Henry's address. Maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. We didn't have it with us when we left. We just moved. Voshinin liked Yaeko.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but I think Henry can tell you much more than anybody.

Mr. Jenner. How, otherwise, did Oswald act at this Christmas party. He paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; what did they talk about, I don't have the slightest idea. But everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. We were teasing Marina how he had a little Japanese girl now, you now. That was just as fun, of course, you know. But evidently they not only talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. That is what she told me. He really liked Yaeko.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think we brought them. In fact, I had a fight almost to get them to that party because Cathy didn't want them and we weren't giving any parties. We gave a big party before, and I wanted Marina to be at some Christmas party because it was her first Christmas in the United States, she could have some kind of fun, so I talked her into it finally. She objected, because she could not bring the baby because the baby would wake up.

I said okay, I'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. So I have another friend which I talked into babysitting for the baby. So we went,321 we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up the baby. It was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back.

Mr. Jenner. Earlier in raising this Christmas party matter with you, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt, I stated that it was in December of 1963. That was a slip of the tongue, and it was in December of 1962, because in December of 1963 you were in Haiti.

Mr. Jenner. By that time, he was not alive. You took the Oswalds home that evening?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe we did. We just had to, because we had to go pick up the baby. The baby was crying all evening. That poor woman was up with her all the time. It was just impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with Lee, because so few people came to see them. They lived like mice, you know. That is why we were so sorry for them.

I wanted for them to meet American couples to get out of it. We tried to get Marina friendly with George's daughter because she had a little boy, too.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Alexandra couldn't understand her. She thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. It is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. Alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that.

Now I remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. Alexandra was complaining about her. So Alexandra—it didn't hit off exactly with Alexandra, but it was very nice. Her husband went to visit them after, and I think they helped them to move, even.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. He is nothing at all.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but he is a good soul. He is really good, so I could never be very angry for what happened. It was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. In fact, I was sorry for him because I knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. I knew he was not going to be. I believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything ever said by Marina or your husband that she sought to have Oswald leave Russia and come to the United States?

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that Lee Oswald sought to have Marina return to Russia?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely new. Was it such a thing? I shouldn't ask you any questions. I am sorry, because I am so curious about the whole thing, myself. In fact, we learned from press 10 times more than we ever knew about them.

Mr. Jenner. You may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well.

Mr. Jenner. Are you aware of your husband's letter to Mrs. Auchincloss, Jacqueline Kennedy's mother?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. He usually shows me most of the letters. I show to him whenever I write to some friends. But if I want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine.

Mr. Jenner. I show you De Mohrenschildt Exhibits Nos. 14 and 15, No. 14 being the original of your husband's letter of December 12, 1963, to Mrs. Auchincloss, and No. 15 being the envelope in which that letter was mailed.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am just finishing; yes. Do you want me to read this, too?

The second paragraph reads: "Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina some time last fall." Now, what did you mean by "We had the misfortune to have met Oswald"?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am sure he meant, and I agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our President, I would rather not know them. I would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. That is what he meant, I am sure, and I am joining him in the same feeling.

Mr. Jenner. The next sentence: "Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina, who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband. She and the baby were malnourished and sickly."

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely true. She was just skin and bones. The baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. She didn't know how to feed that baby.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She had no idea how to feed that baby. The baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. It is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. That is why I insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. The baby was 9 months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything.

I don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. The way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. Children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet.

I told her, "You are living in a civilized country now. You have to raise a baby correctly."

She constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. It is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. Seeing all that, I couldn't stand it. I insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. It was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. In fact, I was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what I was trying to do for her. This was logical and natural. Anybody would do the same thing.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She just didn't know any better, you know. That was shocking to me because I had the impression, in fact Marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about Soviet youth. I pictured them entirely different. I pictured them all sportsmen, very323 tough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. Some field that they are interested in and that is it. She seems to be exactly opposite to everything. She wasn't a sports girl at all. She didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. She didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. She was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in Russia, that was absolutely too—I never thought that. I thought they were very, very proper and very——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that I would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in Yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like Scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. They had wonderful healthy interests.

And Marina was exactly opposite all of these things. In fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. But somehow she was not at all what I would picture as a Soviet girl. It was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. And she related to you these wild parties and orgies in Minsk? Was that in the presence of Lee?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think so. Lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. One evening I talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and George was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. So she told me quite a lot of things. I was really sorry for her.

I gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "Can you imagine me wearing that," you know. It was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. That was sort of touching, you know. She really is pleasant. You cannot be very angry with her.

Mr. Jenner. You have testified for quite awhile. Now, tell me what kind of a person she was? What is your definite impression now? You have told me she told you about these wild orgies. When you use that expression I assume they were parties of——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Sexual orgies. I mean the things that would never occur to us.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. In this country. I would say China, too. I was brought up in China and never heard of such things, you know. Youth never acted like that at all.

Mr. Jenner. Milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. The child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing.

Mr. Jenner. The pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. That is what I objected. Pick it up off the floor. The floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was not324 aware of it. That is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. After all, a pharmacist—it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free.

Mr. Jenner. Indicating what kind of a person she was. What about her honesty? Would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I tell you what I didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. According to what I read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked—I mean what swayed me about her personality——

Mr. Jenner. I don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. I want your opinion.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. She impressed me as an honest girl. She really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Not malicious. That is how I would put it, you know. She was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the United States. She wanted to have it all, you know what I mean? She wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when I came to the United States. She was living in that poor, poor apartment. Of course, it was depressing for her.

Mr. Jenner. Was she talking to Lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator?

Mr. Jenner. Your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. They could get one for very little money.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I believe we talked about it. But I don't know if he even drives a car.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection I have. We didn't have too much discussions about it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Registered her, yes; and I got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and I didn't take her next time. Somebody else took her. I took her only once to the clinic.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I know her very little, but I recall her. I think it is Lydia, isn't it?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. It was a dental clinic, I believe. It was in Baylor Hospital, dental clinic.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That is right, and he told me there would be the325 necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "Some time last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character." You have told us about that incident, have you?

Mr. Jenner. Then it reads: "Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously." You have told us about that?

Mr. Jenner. "Marina stayed with the family of some childless Russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." Is that correct?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. That was the Mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for 2 or 3 months. We were really furious. We wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. So why bother, you know? So from then on we were really disgusted. After all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. Let them live their own rights. Let them battle their own battles.

Mr. Jenner. Did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which Marina left Lee and went with some others?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall it. I think she lived with them, too. I think so, but I don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. Just occasionally all of a sudden I'd get sorry and I'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. That is about the only things we had, the only connection we had.

Mr. Jenner. The next paragraph: "It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and the late President was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." Did your husband discuss that sentence with you?

The only thing I can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for Lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. So anything that seems to be President Kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. You know he was such a wonderful President and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of Lee's heart was some antagonism, you know.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because I don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the President was doing, Kennedy was doing, Lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. If he would shoot Walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at Connally that is understandable, too. We learned that326 Connally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against Connally, but President Kennedy, no.

Mr. Jenner. Was his discharge from the Marines, was that subject ever mentioned?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, no; we never discussed that. I don't remember discussing that.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any mention of his Marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done?

Mr. Jenner. So this paragraph that I have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards?

Mr. Jenner. Then your husband says in this letter: "Better precautions should have been taken."

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I agree. I didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that Adlai Stevenson was treated very poorly in Dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the Democrats, and they had no right really to permit the President to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against Stevenson.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know. I don't think so, but he may. Did he mention to you that we have this Birch Society in Texas, the right wing, extreme right wing?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't know if he mentioned it. He probably did. That there is a Democrat Party split, you know. The Republicans are one but the Democrats are two. A lot of Democrats didn't like what Kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. They thought he was too forward, too fast. Lots of people thought he was too young, you know. And so there was a lot of——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Disturbances. Not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what Kennedy was doing and they were still Democrats. That is really terrible. That Birch Society is a horrible thing. It is almost like Ku Klux Klan.

Mr. Jenner. He also says on the second page of his letter: "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the327 evidence, of Oswald's guilt." Now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No. He wrote the letter, I wasn't there. In fact, I saw the letter accidentally because I just stopped by his office for something and he said, "I just finished a letter. Please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. Otherwise, maybe I wouldn't even see the letter.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No; not at all. In fact I did never know he was going to write the letter. I don't think he told me anything. He just wrote the letter.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take Marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I think I took her twice there, I believe. They couldn't do it all at once. It was too much. One thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. You know she sort of perked up. It gave her a feeling that she was like back. She liked the uniform, you know. She said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. That is when I told her learn English and you can do anything. The sky is the limit.

Did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the Voshinins? It could be something or could be nothing, you see. It could be excused or maybe something they knew about Oswald. They refused to meet him. They refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know I am pretty persistent when I want something and I was after her, I said, "For God sakes, you are always carrying on with every little Russian and this and that." I am not interested, but she is. "How come you still didn't meet the Oswalds?"

Maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. Maybe there is something else, I don't know. But that was very strange because they always carry on with every Russian, you know.

Mr. Jenner. A little phonograph to play them on. You gave them money that you had received from George Bouhe?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I personally didn't. She didn't need it already. By the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. I was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. They were too big. It was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to.

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gave her——

Mr. Jenner. Do you know if Oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from Mr. Bouhe? Did Oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so. I don't think we talked much about that. It is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the United States and its form of government?

328 Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Never. He objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. And I think we all do.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Of course, he was opposed to segregation. He wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just American as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; he is completely in accord with President Kennedy's policy on the subject. That is why it doesn't make exactly sense. He has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. Maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. Is there anything that you have said to me or I have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that I have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, the only thing, the question I actually brought up yesterday, it was not about Oswald. I mean in my thinking it was. I think you should investigate Ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. That is what bothers me.

Mr. Jenner. Did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the Carousel Club or any of those night clubs?

Mr. Jenner. Were people in the Russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear Oswald mention the name Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I never heard him mention that. I don't recall ever hearing it. I didn't know of his existence.

Mr. Jenner. You say that Oswald was a temperate man, I mean as far as drinking is concerned?

Mr. Jenner. Was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of Jack Ruby's places?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Nothing at all. The only link I am searching for is that I don't believe Jack Ruby did it because of his good intentions. I think there is something behind that killing. That is all there is to it. Until it is proven, I remain with my opinion, let's put it that way.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. No, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because I adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. The whole evidence just points to—the thing is much too simple. How could it be that if Oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the Kennedy thing. Wouldn't329 he try to cover it up a little bit, you know? It doesn't make sense at all to me. I tell you the things that don't make sense to me. That was No. 1 doesn't make any sense.

No. 2, knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "I did it" and he would boast about it yet. That is the kind of a person he is. For some reason he clammed up for 2 days, and I know the Dallas police is pretty rough. He didn't have a good time, I am sure, and he did not.

What was his reasons? Maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. How do I know?

It doesn't make sense at all. Anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. I understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at Ruth Paine's; anybody could do it.

Mr. Jenner. You know nothing about any rifle except on that Saturday, that Easter Saturday when you went to their home? That is the first time?

Mr. Jenner. Now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission that you would like to add?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I can't think of anything. The only thing, I would like to definitely dip into is Yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what I mean—maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. Maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. Maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute Japanese girl. I understand he was with Marines staying in the east.

Oh, yes; I remember now. He was always telling—Marina was telling me the Japanese are such wonderful girls. They make such good wives and so on and so forth.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and that is why Marina was so irritated that he liked Yaeko. And she was sort of blase about it. He can take her, you know, take his little Japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she needled him with Yaeko. It may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things.

Mr. Jenner. You and your husband received a letter, did you not, from Mr. Rankin?

Mr. Jenner. And with which was enclosed a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution 137?

Mr. Jenner. Which is the legislation under which the Commission was created, and a copy of President Lyndon Johnson's——

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't know the details, but I assumed that is what it was.

Mr. Jenner. And you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the Commission are undertaken?

Mr. Jenner. I have no more. I appreciate very much your coming, and the Commission does. This has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you and330 your husband, and your involvement with the Oswalds unfortunately has led to this.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes; you know this hurts us very much. You know Haiti is just like Dallas in a way. We have been gone for 10 days in Santo Domingo, San Juan, Santo Domingo. We come back three or four people said, "The American Embassy is looking for you." This alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the American Embassy is looking for us, you know. That is how people are. So this is not very good, and I am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in Haiti. You know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. The Ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. That hurts very badly. I tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. I don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another 2 weeks from now and I would enjoy the visit here very much. It is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. But in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in Philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "Under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child."

The FBI was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time George did something very big.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Well, that is what is happening, you understand. Here are the results. So it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. We cannot do it tomorrow. The court is closed. We have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. So you see this affects us in someway. If you can somehow—at the moment we are concerned, of course, about Haiti and Haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. It improves the relations between the countries. It may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the American people will make money and the Haitian people will benefit by it. He is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart.

The country is beautiful. We have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive.

By people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. Is there anyway in the future, can I discuss it with the FBI, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially George, you know, he is foreign born. He has a long, long name. He looks a little bit like a German, you know. Everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult.

For no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the FBI came over to Port-au-Prince, you know, and he made the remark, "Why don't you like the FBI, George, why don't you like FBI?" I told him why we don't like FBI and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. You hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? The minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. That is what happens. How can we avoid it? How can it be stopped?

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Really, I mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because I do understand that we should have Secret Service but let's have a little more secret. It is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. That leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl.

We are going back to Haiti. It could be right now we will be hurt by it. I told George, "Are you sure he told you the FBI came to see?"

He said, "Yes," so here we are. That is one thing. We will do anything331 we can do to help because it is our duty and I cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because George would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up.

For me, right now it is very difficult in designing because I don't like to live in New York. In New York I can have fantastic job in 2 minutes, but I don't want to live in New York, I don't like the climate, and in Dallas people are so narrowminded, you know.

Now that we knew Oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. So it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in Haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with George's little girl.

Mr. Jenner. No; those names will be sufficient for us. Our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. But you may also waive that. You don't have to do it unless you wish.

Your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, I don't think it really matters.

Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Do you want me to sign it? Does it have to be signed?

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 9:15 a.m., on March 21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and Norman Redlich, assistant counsels of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the Commission of Mrs. Paine's testimony before the Commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.1

I think it might be well, in view of that transition, if Mrs. Paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather.

The Reporter. Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

332 Mrs. Paine. I think that time I stayed about 2 weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital.

Mrs. Paine. I believe it was Park Ridge, N.J. We had lived there before, I remember.

Mrs. Paine. No; I first recall living in the country not far from Freehold, N.J.

Mrs. Paine. We moved back to New York when I was 8, and from New York then moved to Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. Is my information correct that you entered Antioch College at Antioch, Ohio, in 1950?

Mr. Jenner. You might state for the record what the character of Antioch College is. It is special in some respect, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions.

Mrs. Paine. In order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements.

Mr. Jenner. Does Antioch College—I know you said you were of the Quaker faith—does Antioch College have any connection with the Quaker faith?

Mr. Jenner. And did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. I was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at Antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work.

Mr. Jenner. And have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since?

Mrs. Paine. I pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs I have sought.

Mr. Jenner. You had by that time already embraced the Quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered Antioch, at the time you entered Antioch College?

Mrs. Paine. At the time I entered I was not yet a member. I joined in the winter of 1951, so it was still a year and a quarter before I became a member.

Mrs. Paine. That was when I first became acquainted with the Quakers and their beliefs, and I was active in attending the Friends meeting in Columbus from that time on.

Mr. Jenner. Now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of 1950, that is, January through March, you were recreation333 instructor and a leader in the Jewish community at Indianapolis, Ind.

Mr. Jenner. And do I correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the Jewish Community Center in Indianapolis?

Mr. Jenner. Then in the summer of 1950 you were a camp counselor at Big Eagle Camp at Indianapolis, Ind.?

Mr. Jenner. Also, apparently—I am not certain of this—that during the summer of 1950 you served as a recreation leader of the American Friends Service Committee?

Mrs. Paine. That was in Rapid City, S. Dak., as part of an American Friends Service Committee work camp.

Mr. Jenner. And then in the fall quarter 1951, that is October, apparently, through January 1952, and then March through May of 1952 you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the Downtown Community School in New York City, N.Y.; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Right. The job you describe was part of my work placement from Antioch College.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you. And then the quarter October through December 1952 you were a recreation leader at the Jewish Community Center in the city of Columbus Recreation Department. Do I have those correctly stated?

Mr. Jenner. Then September and October 1953 and January through March 1954 you were an elementary school teacher at the Mad River Township School, Dayton, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. Then in the summer of 1954, June and July, my notes indicate a summer tour with the American Friends Service Committee; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. It was not with the American Friends Service Committee; it was with a different group of Friends, with the Friends——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me—Friends in this connection is spelled with a capital F? Forgive my interruption.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, this was a tour sponsored by the Friends World Committee. We did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at Pendle Hill.

Mrs. Paine. Pendle Hill is in the Philadelphia suburban area, and it is a334 school for religious and social studies maintained by the Society of Friends, Quakers.

Mr. Jenner. You told us yesterday that in the summer of 1952 you were a delegate to—state it again.

Mr. Jenner. Then the period August 1954 through May 1955, you were associated with the Young Men's Hebrew Association and the Young Women's Hebrew Association of Philadelphia, Pa.?

Mr. Jenner. And you were particularly given an assignment, and I may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the Golden Age Club. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please tell us what those assignments were? You say there were three.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I worked with the Golden Age Club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use.

Mr. Jenner. I think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. Take the Golden Age Club first. They were a group of what people?

Mrs. Paine. The Golden Age Club consisted of people over the age of 60, all of them Jewish.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. In fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from Kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and they spoke Yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood English and spoke it. There were some who did not read and write English, and I undertook to teach a few.

Mrs. Paine. I was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the Y, which sponsored the club.

Mrs. Paine. I felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. I felt that as a club leader I didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the Y.

Mr. Jenner. In general, what was their view towards the United States of America, as a group?

335 Mr. Jenner. Did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults?

Mrs. Paine. They were a group of older young adults. They particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet.

Mr. Jenner. They were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. Would you indicate what that was?

Mrs. Paine. I felt they were not as able a group. The individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the Golden Age Club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party.

Mr. Jenner. Your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it?

Mrs. Paine. Not particularly singing and dancing. Again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the Y. But leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. The group had its own president and officers.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the Golden Age or the young adults group?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the Y. They could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. This required the least from me in the leadership.

Mr. Jenner. It was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the Yiddish language?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; because of my work with the Golden Age Club. I had already studied some German so that I understood. The two languages are similar enough that I understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in Yiddish.

Mr. Jenner. I have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. By this time had you taken a course in Russian at the university?

Mr. Jenner. Had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of Russian?

Mr. Jenner. I will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-Antioch College period of activity.

Do you recall that as early as 1945—1946, that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the World Truck Farm in Elyria, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. Wolfe is the name. It is the man's name; the owner's name; Wolfe Truck Farm.

Mr. Jenner. I thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "World" instead of "Wolfe" was furnished to me.

Mrs. Paine. It was. This was a group of girls and all from Columbus, Ohio, all from the school I was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war.

Mrs. Paine. And we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the Army.

336 Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that in 1947 you served as a teacher in the Friends Vacation Bible School?

Mrs. Paine. This is the same summer when I was first introduced to Friends activities, and I was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling Bible school. We went to three different small towns in Indiana and Ohio, and taught young children. I led songs and games and read stories.

Mr. Jenner. In 1948 you served as a leader in craftwork at the Presbyterian Bible School in Columbus, Ohio?

Mrs. Paine. It was similar to what I had done the year before. I had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for Bible school work then in Columbus. You have described it entirely. It was working with crafts and——

Mr. Jenner. Also in 1948 you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the Universal School, Columbus, Ohio?

Mr. Jenner. But you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that in 1949 you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in Columbus, Ohio?

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was?

Mrs. Paine. It was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. We were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. This was basically sponsored by the families.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. I guess not dancing—more likely stories.

Mrs. Paine. They ranged in age from, perhaps, 7 or 8 to 13. I had a helper who was 13.

Mrs. Paine. You have not mentioned one time when I attended. I attended in the——

Mrs. Paine. I attended Pendle Hill first in the fall of 1950, for the fall term.

Mr. Jenner. Did you return to the Friends School or Pendle Hill and do some work in 1956?

Mrs. Paine. You are talking about Pendle Hill? I don't recall; no. I may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different.

Mr. Jenner. I think we might help this way. You were married to Michael R. Paine on the 28th of December, 1957?

Mrs. Paine. I was teaching school at the Germantown Friends School. Germantown is a section of Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. When had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at Germantown Friends School?

Mrs. Paine. I began in the fall of 1956, worked there 1956 to 1957 and 1957 to 1958 school years.

Mrs. Paine. I was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades 1 through 6.

Mr. Jenner. Did the Germantown Friends School have anything to do with Pendle Hill?

Mr. Jenner. You have already mentioned you attended various Friends conferences over this period of years, did you not?

Mr. Jenner. And you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the Friends Conferences, especially the young people's groups?

Mr. Jenner. You already mentioned or made some reference to a Friends Conference at Quaker Haven, Ind., September 1955, I believe in your testimony, have you not?

Mr. Jenner. Was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the Young Friends of North America meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west?

Mrs. Paine. It was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest.

Mr. Jenner. And out of this interest and activity arose the Russian pen pal activity and bringing of some Russian students over to America to see and observe America?

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that was your initial interest in the Russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the Russian language arose about that time?

Mrs. Paine. My interest arose about that time. Pursuit didn't begin until later.

Mr. Jenner. In some of the materials I have seen there is mention of a Young Friends meeting or conference at Earlham College in Richmond, Ind. I think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not?

Mrs. Paine. There was a conference, a Young Friends Conference at Earlham in 1947. That was the first one I ever attended. Is that——

Mr. Jenner. No; well, I don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in 1954–55, along in that time, didn't you?

Mrs. Paine. There are a great many meetings for the Young Friends Committee of North America, and they were commonly held at Earlham College, but they were not conferences.

Mr. Jenner. This was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in America and young people in Russia?

338 Mrs. Paine. This would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting.

Mr. Jenner. Is there, or was there a Russian Friends group in Wallingford, in Philadelphia?

Mr. Jenner. I am not too sure just what I do mean, because my information is so limited.

Mr. Jenner. It would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, I see, that the three Soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in 1958. Is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. And it was the Young Friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the State Department, as I recall it, the bringing of these three young Soviet students over here?

Mrs. Paine. We sought advice from the State Department; yes; and from the American Friends Service Committee, also.

Mr. Jenner. And we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. Your only participation or contact with these three Soviet students, I understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting—was it a dinner—and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after?

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native Russian people other than these three Russian students and Marina, that is to say up to November 22——

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Well, of course, your golden age group. There were some who had been born in Russia.

Mrs. Paine. A great many. I am not certain where Mrs. Gravitis was born. I think she was born in Latvia. Any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, I met a group that had come to Dallas to play chamber music. They were all from Soviet Armenia, and talked with these people. That was a year ago. But if there were any other contacts they were of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. Have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native Russians or any Russians who were naturalized Americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them?

Mr. Jenner. Would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the Quaker Friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the Russian language and then your contacts with Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I would say it was mostly the latter. I met very few native Russians through my interest in Friends, but through being interested in Russian there were a good many native Russians at the Middlebury College, for instance, and the Berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in Russia, so that these would be my contacts.

Mr. Jenner. Your pen pal correspondent in Russia, at least the second one, was Nina Atarina?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? Put it in your own words. We are just trying to supply a background.

Mrs. Paine. I can start most easily with their present activities. My mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from Oberlin College in Ohio. She has already been ordained as a minister of the Unitarian Church. She hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has 6 more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. My father is working for a Nationwide Insurance Co. He has been on special assignment from them to—I am not certain of the name of the organization—to cooperative alliance in Europe.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. The cooperative alliance in Europe, does that include any Iron Curtain countries?

Mrs. Paine. No. He is presently teaching a course at Ohio State University, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at Nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time.

Mr. Jenner. You start out at the end rather than the beginning, Mrs. Paine. We don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. Was your father an insurance——

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Most of that interest I absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. Most of the activity was in New York and, as I have said, I moved 2 weeks after I was born from New York. But they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement.

Mrs. Paine. My understanding is that the consumer owns the business. In other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits.

Mrs. Paine. I think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. I am not certain what farmers cooperative is. I know that they were interested in and voted for Norman Thomas when they were in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? For example, the Socialist Party of which Mr. Thomas was the head, or leader?

Mr. Jenner. I take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the Friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. Your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest.

340 Mr. Jenner. How would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? Were they people of modest means?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. My family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income.

Mr. Jenner. And they were modest in their tastes, I gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. I mean modest in their material tastes.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may I say to you, Mrs. Paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the Friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect?

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough, if I am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection?

Mrs. Paine. I believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. It is not an ideology that I am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life I can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is.

Mrs. Paine. I have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. But I don't think I have to discuss it more fully than that.

Mr. Jenner. Return a moment to your conference with Mr. Hosty, on the first of November 1963. You have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of November, and what time of the day it was Marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does—I will read it back a little bit, she was shown Lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. She was asked, "Did you report to your husband the fact of this visit November 1 with the FBI agent?"

She responded: "I didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend I told him about it."

Then she added voluntarily: "By the way, on that day he was due to arrive—that is November 1.

She said, "Lee comes off work at 5:30, comes from work at 5:30. They left at 5 o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and Lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait."

Mrs. Paine. It may certainly have happened that way. My recollection stands as I told it yesterday.

Mr. Jenner. And did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend?

Mrs. Paine. I only recall that I said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends.

Mr. Jenner. She also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two.

Mr. Jenner. It could have been, Mrs. Paine, but your recollection doesn't341 serve you sufficiently at the moment, that Mr. Hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that Lee Oswald was expected that particular weekend?

Mr. Jenner. But, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised Mr. Hosty that Lee did visit on weekends and that Mr. Hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see Lee Oswald if he wished?

Mr. Jenner. In any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the interview on November 1, was there any reference to Lee's having passed out leaflets for the FPCC?

Mr. Jenner. And was there any inquiry as to whether Lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mrs. Paine. There was reference to it, I suppose in the nature of an inquiry. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection that Marina said through you that Lee was not engaging in such activities in the Dallas-Irving-Fort Worth area?

Mr. Jenner. Marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the 5th of November?

Mr. Jenner. She was not? She likewise describes the November 1 interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. That was your impression, was it not?

Mr. Jenner. I don't mean that. I mean active political party activity of some kind.

Mr. Jenner. Is your sister active as you are or a member of the League of Women Voters?

Mr. Jenner. Your relations with your mother and your father—would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I am close to both of them. I am particularly close to my mother.

342 Mr. Jenner. And is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks?

Mrs. Paine. I think I have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in Ohio, are closer to my father, and I just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning I don't know.

Mr. Jenner. The relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? You are interested in each other's activities?

Mr. Jenner. And you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you?

Mr. Jenner. And do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other?

Mr. Jenner. From what I have seen I would take exception. I think you are too modest. There has been a good deal of letterwriting.

Mr. Jenner. And at least until recently, I don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I have, which I will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. You might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than I in the way of general summary. Would you do so?

Mrs. Paine. It also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. It includes a list of the people to whom I sent birth announcements, things of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. I have marked these boxes for identification numbers 457, 458, and 459. During my meeting with you Wednesday morning, I exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. And those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters?

Mr. Jenner. And the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched?

We asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to Marina or to Lee Oswald, and your answer was in the negative.

Mr. Jenner. We asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash.

Mr. Jenner. You gave no cash to either. What do you know about expenditures by Lee Oswald for such items as bus fare from Dallas to Irving and from Irving back to Dallas while looking for employment?

Mrs. Paine. I recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up343 once. There may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times.

Mr. Jenner. Just those two times? You already told us about the time he went to New Orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. That was in the spring.

Mr. Jenner. The same question with respect to telephone calls. You have already told us that was not a toll call from Dallas to Irving.

Mr. Jenner. What recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in New Orleans, Dallas, or in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. In New Orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. In Irving, then after October 4 I saw him buy a few items for the baby or for June, things that Marina had requested, but no groceries.

Mr. Jenner. Now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for Marina, and for June and Rachel. You have told us about the one instance in which he gave Marina some money to buy shoes for June, which was——

Mr. Jenner. Were for Marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. Our plan was to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy these shoes. Just when he gave her the money, I am not certain. And these, of course, were not bought. I can think of nothing that was bought. Yes, one thing. When she was with me in the spring, late April to the 9th of May, she had some money from Lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, I would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been Bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but I know they cost nearly $5, and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. These were bought in Irving.

Mr. Jenner. Was it your impression that they had or at least that Marina was afforded very limited funds?

Mr. Jenner. Now, the same question with respect to laundry. That would be his laundry largely. I take it from your telling us about you and Marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the 22d of November that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing.

Mrs. Paine. No; and Lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then Marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber?

Mrs. Paine. I guess there must have been such. I don't recall it having been mentioned. I certainly wasn't around.

Mr. Jenner. We did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that Lee had called regularly on Fridays or Saturday morning at the barber shop. Your impression of that is that that was not Lee who did that.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a 14-year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in Irving?

344 Mr. Jenner. Now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs?

Mr. Jenner. You are aware from reports of Marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of 1963, either in New Orleans or in Irving or in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. And did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures?

Mrs. Paine. No; the only reference to a camera was made by Lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the Soviet Union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size.

Mr. Jenner. What is your impression as to whether Lee gave Marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month?

Mr. Jenner. Have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by Lee to Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Lee took Marina to Hutch's Market to purchase some groceries?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such an occasion. I do recall that Marina and I, or perhaps it was only I went in and bought milk there. I think this was on our way to my house on the 24th of April. But it is not the store I usually go to, and I am quite certain it is—it is too far to walk—I am quite certain——

Mrs. Paine. It is a little closer than that but blocks in Irving are not well defined, I might say, so it is hard to say.

Mr. Jenner. When Lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home?

Mr. Jenner. I have already questioned you about breakfast. He always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee?

Mrs. Paine. I remember one occasion when Marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take.

Mrs. Paine. I have already testified that we once in New Orleans, in September, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in Texas. This involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when I knew him. But beyond that, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and Marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally?

Mr. Jenner. I will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the FBI to copy.

They appear as pages 14, 15, and 16 of a report of agents Wilson and Anderson, dated December 4, 1963.

(The documents referred to were marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit 461," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. The first of those is a "Dear Mom" letter dated September 30. I take it that was September 30, 1963. Perhaps I should go at it this way. Do you recall that letter?

Mr. Jenner. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.

Mr. Jenner. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much."

Mrs. Paine. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.

Mrs. Paine. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.

Mrs. Paine. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.

"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."

Mr. Jenner. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."

Mr. Jenner. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.

Mr. Jenner. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?

Mr. Jenner. As to your expectation—was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for Marina and they would be together again?

Mr. Jenner. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. West 5th Street—and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?

For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.

"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."

Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?

Mrs. Paine. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."

We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?

Mr. Jenner. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."

Mr. Jenner. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.

347 Mr. Jenner. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?

Mrs. Paine. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.

Mr. Jenner. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?

Mr. Jenner. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was—there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?

Mrs. Paine. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.

Mr. Jenner. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?

Mr. Jenner. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?

Mr. Jenner. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.

Mr. Jenner. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.

Mr. Jenner. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?

Mr. Jenner. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?

Mr. Jenner. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.

Mrs. Paine. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked to me——

Mr. Jenner. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her——

Mr. Jenner. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?

Mrs. Paine. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.

I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he had been——

Mrs. Paine. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?

Mrs. Paine. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?

Mrs. Paine. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?

Mr. Jenner. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?

Mrs. Paine. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But that was——

Mrs. Paine. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.

Mrs. Paine. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.

Mrs. Paine. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?

Mr. Jenner. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.

Mr. Jenner. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?

Mrs. Paine. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.

Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January–February, I don't know just when.

Mrs. Paine. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.

Mrs. Paine. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.

Mrs. Paine. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.

Mr. Jenner. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?

350 Mrs. Paine. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four—no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.

Mr. Jenner. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.

Mr. Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?

Mr. Jenner. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?

Mr. Jenner. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?

Mrs. Paine. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.

Mr. Jenner. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.

Mrs. Paine. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.

And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.

When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.

He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.

And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.

351 Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I think while——

Mrs. Paine. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time——

Mrs. Paine. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.

Mrs. Paine. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters—no; I mentioned that to the record—came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.

Mrs. Paine. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?

As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.

Mr. Jenner. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?

Mrs. Paine. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.

And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.

Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I might352 say, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.

Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.

Mr. Jenner. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?

I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.

Mrs. Paine. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.

Mr. Jenner. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.

But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.

I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.

Mr. Jenner. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?

Mrs. Paine. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.

Mrs. Paine. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.

Mrs. Paine. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?

353 Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?

Mrs. Paine. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.

Mrs. Paine. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.

Mrs. Paine. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.

Mrs. Paine. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.

And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.

From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.

I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.

Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are—since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.

Mr. Jenner. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?

Mr. Jenner. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.

Mrs. Paine. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.

Mrs. Paine. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing,354 really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."

Mrs. Paine. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.

The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.

Mrs. Paine. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?

Mrs. Paine. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all—it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.

355 Mr. Jenner. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, since Marina——

Mrs. Paine. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.

Mrs. Paine. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said to me——

Mrs. Paine. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.

Mr. Jenner. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?

Mrs. Paine. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.

Mr. Jenner. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.

Mrs. Paine. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.

Mrs. Paine. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.

356 Mr. Jenner. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?

Mrs. Paine. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.

Mrs. Paine. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one——

Mrs. Paine. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and I said——

Mrs. Paine. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.

Mrs. Paine. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.

Mr. Jenner. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.

Mr. Jenner. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?

Mr. Jenner. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.

Mr. Jenner. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.

Mr. Jenner. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?

Mrs. Paine. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs.357 Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.

Mrs. Paine. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.

Mr. Jenner. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions that she——

Mrs. Paine. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.

Mr. Jenner. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.

Mrs. Paine. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.

Mr. Jenner. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke—that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?

Mr. Jenner. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.

Mrs. Paine. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.

Mr. Jenner. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?

Mr. Jenner. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"

Mr. Jenner. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?

Mrs. Paine. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mrs. Paine. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.

Mr. Jenner. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?

359 Mrs. Paine. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Jenner. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?

Mrs. Paine. And this written at the time—it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.

Mrs. Paine. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I have. And then I have also testified about meeting, picnic, Marina and Lee, on the 20th of April.

Mrs. Paine. And then I have also testified about seeing both of them on the 24th of April, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "Lee and Marina."

Mrs. Paine. Theirs, but written in later, saying, "Marina and Lee Wedding Anniversary two years ago."

Mr. Jenner. You have now identified all entries on the April calendar referring to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have referred to the fact that this entry on May 1 "Mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "War and Peace." This recalls to me the fact that Marina went with me and we took June and we saw the movie War and Peace.

Mrs. Paine. Right, is on May 10 going over to the 11th where in New Orleans and it means these were the days we were going to New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. I see an entry on July 17 which says, "Marina birthday." This was written either before or after I did know in the spring that her birthday was in July. I am not certain I have got it down on the right date, and that is all.

Mr. Jenner. Drop down then to the calendar for August. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds on that date?

Mr. Jenner. Turn the page. We have now reached the calendar for September. Are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. On September 23 there is an entry, "A.M. left N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. That is an entry of your having departed from New Orleans to go back to——

Mrs. Paine. On the 24th is written, "Home arrived 1:30 p.m., from N.O." meaning New Orleans.

Mrs. Paine. We have finished September. We are up to October 1963. There is an entry on Friday the 4th that says, "Gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously.

Mr. Jenner. That was in connection with Marina's entry into Parkland Hospital for the birth of her child?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. Crossed out on the 7th of October is "Lee birthday?" On the 18th of October appears an entry "Lee birthday."

Then on the 11th there is a notation "Marina appointment PMH" Parkland Memorial Hospital, "8 a.m." This was our first appointment as I recall, when we applied for care. There is an entry on October 15, "Work L start." This was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the 16th, and I have written on the 16th, "Lee work start," and also "HOS" for hospital, and "10:30 a.m." That would be Parkland. I would be certain it was.

Mr. Jenner. Were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record?

Mrs. Paine. All except the corrected, "Lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when I realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance.

Mrs. Paine. Quite soon I'd say. I was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when I put together the necessary sequence of361 events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the 16th that he had started. Then on the 20th of October is a notation, one word in Russian which says "she was born." It is followed by "10:41 p.m., 6 pounds 15 ounces."

On October 22 is a notation, "Baby come home noon" or "came home". That means exactly what it says.

Mr. Jenner. The entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event?

Mr. Jenner. Let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred?

On the 29th of October appears the entry, "Dal" short for Dallas "Junie" she had a clinic appointment.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. You asked me at some time during my testimony was I away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. I had forgotten but I see here a doctor appointment, "Dr. Liebes," on Saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that I was away for an hour and 15 minutes or an hour and a half.

Mr. Jenner. This is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether Lee actually visited your home?

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that Lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the 1st, that he did come on the 2d?

Then there is an entry on November 6, "9:30 dental clinic Marina", it means exactly that. We took her to a dental clinic to get dental care.

Mr. Jenner. And that was probably an entry made in advance to remind you that she had a dental appointment?

There is an entry on November 11, "Veterans Day." I have already referred to the fact that I was away from 9 or so in the morning until about 2 in the afternoon and this was a day that Lee was at home or at the Fifth Street address at my home.

Mrs. Paine. He was at home that day, and I was away from about 9 in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. There is an entry on the 14th of November, "8 a.m. June Oswald." This I recall to be a reference to taking her to a TB clinic. There was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to TB, but this is362 followed by an entry on the 21st, "Checked TB test" and at that time it was clearly negative. She did not have tuberculosis.

In the same connection, there is an entry on the 18th of November, "1 o'clock TB children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and I would judge we didn't go all of those times. One of those probably was changed.

Mrs. Paine. There were two visits. We went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. Then you go back to have it read. And she also had X-rays taken.

There is an entry on the 20th of November, "Marina 10 a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference.

Mrs. Paine. L-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which I have testified.

Mrs. Paine. That is its significance, yes. That is the only reason it is related. There is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "Planned Parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the Planned Parenthood Clinic, with Marina, for Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should I put it that way. What was the purpose of that visit? I am acquainted with planned parenthood society. What was the purpose of the visit? Was she concerned about having more children?

Mr. Jenner. Would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I might go back and say that in March when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control, at that time I also said in March that I would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the Planned Parenthood Clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to.

Mr. Jenner. Was she concerned about the ability, for example, I am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of Lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family?

Mrs. Paine. I recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that Lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. We also discussed the differing attitudes between Americans and Russians on what is a large family. Two is considered quite a large family, two or three in Russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attend with her a Planned Parenthood meeting or session, visit?

Mrs. Paine. One had to wait until at least 6 weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or 5 or 6 weeks.

There are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept.

There is a notation on the 3d of December, "Vine Clinic, Bay 12 noon." The Vine Street Clinic was a well baby clinic in Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. That is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. I think I have already mentioned a previous notation about the Vine Clinic on November 5. I might have skipped that.

Mrs. Paine. Rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, should be 6 weeks old or so before they give the first—no, that the baby Rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation.

Mr. Jenner. Therefore, you made the entry as of December 5, to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic?

Mrs. Paine. I might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of June and make registration for Rachel in Irving at a well baby clinic instead of in Dallas, but since the expectation was that Marina would be back in Dallas after the 1st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic.

Mr. Jenner. That is of interest to me, Mrs. Paine. There had been discussion between you and Marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the 1st of the year?

Mrs. Paine. I thought I had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this just adds to that indication.

Mr. Jenner. So that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in Dallas.

No, October 29, "Dallas Junie" is the first Vine Street Clinic visit, followed 1 week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the TB test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the TB children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of TB on the 21st of November.

Mr. Jenner. What I was getting at is that when you made the entry on November 5, 1963——

Mr. Jenner. And I would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on December 5, 1963——

Mr. Jenner. December 3, 1963, that there was consciously in the minds of both you and Marina as of November 5 that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year.

Mrs. Paine. We were visited at the home by a public health nurse in Irving——

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. It doesn't appear, and I don't recall, though they might have records of it.

Mrs. Paine. It was after she had registered at Parkland, it was after the baby was born.

Mrs. Paine. And we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in Irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at Parkland, and she said that Marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in Irving.

Then I mentioned that they had contact already with the Vine Street Clinic, and I think after this visit from the nurse, Marina and I discussed where it would be best for her to have her——

Mrs. Paine. Marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to just continue in Dallas.

Mrs. Paine. There was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. I don't know why. Obviously, a lot of things happened that I didn't write down but there was also a visit to, I will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go if a child is ailing.

Mrs. Paine. My recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. It was in the adjacent building to the TB clinic.

At the first Vine Street Clinic meeting, which is, I judge, the 29th of October, the physician recommended that June go to the Freeman Memorial Clinic.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection. I am not certain. June has—I don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. This was on her tummy.

Mrs. Paine. It was on June's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. At the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about Marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. And they no doubt would have a record of when that was done.

My own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the 18th of November, although there is no reference to it here. Then the final notation is December 4. I started to mention this, but I don't believe I finished, "Clinic 6 weeks check 1." One refers to the post partum check at Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Mrs. Paine. For Marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and I simply sent notation about this appointment to Secret Service. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina or June or Rachel or Lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them?

Mrs. Paine. If they had. They had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by Marina well before I knew her. June had already been once or twice in Dallas to the Vine Street Clinic. I judged that Marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it.

Mr. Jenner. All right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being Commission Exhibit No. 401?

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

Mr. Jenner. We will resume. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402, which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the Oswalds?

The first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. Next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; as you testified. The next page is the "A" page, the left and right hand.

Mr. Jenner. The left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the B page, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. You have on this page two neighbors of mine, Ann Bell met both Marina and Lee, and she has been interviewed.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the right-hand of the B page, and the first page of the C page. Any of those names or addresses related to the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Next is the opposite face of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the reverse side of the C page and the first page of the D page.

Mr. Jenner. The next is the reverse side of the D page and the first page of the E page.

Mr. Jenner. Next, the reverse side of the D page and the first face of the E page.

Mrs. Paine. I recall being refreshed by this entry, Four Continents Book Store. I went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that I wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any English, she did not understand me. And I heard other people—there is a book store where you can obtain materials in Russian—it imports from Russia, and had materials that I wanted to get to help me with teaching Russian.

Mrs. Paine. No; the only reason I bring it up is that I related this incident to Marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know English fluently to get a job—if there were a Russian-speaking community, where Russian could be used. That is all.

Mrs. Paine. Well, there is a reference to D. Gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is an entry for Everett Glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known.

Mr. Jenner. Globe Parcel Service. Didn't you make some reference to that in your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; not in any connection to the Oswalds. But this was an address given to me by my Russian tutor. This is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the Iron Curtain. They see to it that it is either delivered or returned—whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned.

Mr. Jenner. Did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No. I, in fact, have not used the service. I only have their address.

Mrs. Paine. Mild significance in that the name of my one Russian student appears here, Bill Hootkins.

Mr. Jenner. The reverse of the H page and the face of the I page. Now, let's take the reverse of the H page first, first side. The two pages—the left-hand one has Samuel and Liz Hagner, and the opposite page at the top has Carol Hyde. On those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the Oswalds or relating to them?

Mrs. Paine. None; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives,367 and these are people to whom I spoke about the Oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. Other than that, no significance.

Mr. Jenner. Next would be—there are some empty pages. We better record that fact. The reverse side——

Mr. Jenner. As we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book.

Mr. Jenner. Those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter J appears at the top.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. There is nothing of significance here in relation to the Oswalds.

Mr. Jenner. And next is a page in which a letter K appears at the top of the list of letters.

Mr. Jenner. And the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is M. On the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. Look at both pages, please.

Mrs. Paine. Probably while I was there. But I know I didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer.

Mr. Jenner. It was during your visit—your second visit to New Orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book?

Mrs. Paine. And I believe this person has been referred to in testimony—Helen Mamikonian. She was my roommate at Middlebury College, summer Russian school.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is M.

Mrs. Paine. This just gives a current address for the same person—Helen Mamikonian.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a sheet, the top letter of which is O. You have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore?

Mr. Jenner. The next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter P.

Mrs. Paine. The entry for Plattner Clinic, in Grand Prairie, was made because I inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Those are my next door neighbors, and also Randle, which refers to Mrs. William Randle. And the one below has been covered in testimony—that is Frolick and Pen Rainey.

Mr. Jenner. Frolick, I should say to you, Mrs. Paine, is spelled F-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. The next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is S.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also S. It is the opposite——

Mrs. Paine. No significance in relation to the Oswalds. It does list the name of the school at which I taught Russian, Saint Mark's School.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are very good friends of mine who I have known from work with the Young Friends Committee of North America. He was chairman of the East-West Contacts Committee while I was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence.

Mr. Jenner. The next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter U, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that.

Mrs. Paine. No significance in relation to the Oswalds, except as testified. I did talk to Mrs. Young.

Mr. Jenner. But the next two, Arthur M. Young, and Charles Morris—those are your in-laws?

Mr. Jenner. And Arthur M. Young is the stepfather of your husband, Michael Ralph Paine?

Mr. Jenner. And Charles Morris Young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct?

369 Mr. Jenner. All right. Mrs. Paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of Marina Oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? What kind of a person was she?

Mrs. Paine. I enjoyed knowing her. She was a great deal of company to me in my home. She liked to help me with the language problems I had. She was very good at explaining a word I didn't understand in other Russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word I didn't understand.

She is, as I have already testified, a hard worker. She liked to help around the house. She had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, I felt. She wanted to learn from me about cooking. I did most of the meal preparation. But she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. I think she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence.

She knows, I am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. But, on the other hand, as I have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce—to practice pronouncing English words and didn't consider that she had much ability in English. She did say to me in the fall—I think it was after Mr. Hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to English conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. I may have already testified to this.

I think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. She did—I should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as I have already testified. There was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, I should say. But I felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy.

She was in some ways—she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in Minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in Minsk—how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed.

She spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you—you brought something out about Russia—about any hopes or desires or thoughts about America while she was in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. She did say once that she had dreamed of coming to America. I think she meant dreamed while sleeping.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate anything beyond that—that is, that she had a dream—did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to America?

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were telling me about your impressions of Marina's personality, her character, her integrity.

Mrs. Paine. We spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in God. She told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the Bible, the Koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in God, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the philosophy in Russia toward religion as negative or positive?

370 Mrs. Paine. This was implied. I can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person.

Mrs. Paine. One of the first things I knew—and this was told to me in March of 1963—one of the first times I went to see her at their apartment, on Neely Street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for June, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. I have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without Lee's knowledge and consent. She made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that I shouldn't tell anyone I pleased, Lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely.

Mr. Jenner. In her discussions of her life in Russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the Communist Party or people who were interested in communism or the Communist Party in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. She referred rather disparagingly to some of the young Communist youth group people. She felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. She also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which I said she told me was from Minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by Khrushchev, speech by Khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever Khrushchev was. And she found this very dull. Very repetitious. She, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. She always turned to this portion——

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. In this connection, I can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about having seen movies in Russia originating in America, in the United States?

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the United States?

Mr. Jenner. What was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country?

She spoke of having met some young Cuban students who were traveling in Russia, or studying in Minsk, or both—I am not certain. But she commented on how Latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to November 22—let's say prior to November 23—of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of Lee Oswald to reach Cuba?

Mr. Jenner. Was—were the references to Cuba limited to those with regard to Castro on the FPCC incident in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Lee is the only one who mentioned the FPCC incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. And then, of course, this reference in Minsk was to students who had been there only.

Mr. Jenner. You have given me a number of specifics. But I don't think you have yet told me your opinion of Marina Oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy—as a person and a woman.

Mrs. Paine. I like her and care a lot about her. I feel that—as I have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. I feel that I cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends I feel I can guess that they would feel as I would in a situation. I don't have that feeling about Marina. She is more of an enigma to me.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would. I could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of 1963. She was—thanked me too much, I felt. It was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because I was lonely, and because I was interested in the language. And I also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially—that this was not a burden. But I never felt I fully convinced her.

Mr. Jenner. Well, is there anything you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to Marina Oswald as a person?

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you this—your view or opinion as to whether Marina Oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic.

Mrs. Paine. My impression was distinctly that she was not. I don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. I don't feel I have knowledge. It would seem to me highly unlikely. But that is different from being certain. I might add this. I think—things she said to me on the evening of the 22d.

Mrs. Paine. We returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two Life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. And she and I talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. She said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, I would say, to her voice and her manner. She said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the Kennedy family came to her through translation from Lee, and that she thought——

Mrs. Paine. Well, in other words, if Lee read in the paper something about the Kennedys, or if there was something in Time Magazine about them, he would translate to Marina, that is, put into Russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. And she thought that if he had had negative feelings about Kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from Lee. But there was no such indication of dislike from Lee to her.

Mr. Jenner. It has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. Why is that? You were relating it to what—to her groping as to why her husband committed this act?

Mrs. Paine. Her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that I am trying to describe. And in the same way she told me that——

Mr. Jenner. That is, is it your concept that she was ruminating—how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to President Kennedy, and still have assassinated him?

Mr. Jenner. Was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it—or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the President?

Mrs. Paine. It was more in the sense being hurt and confused. Not concluding that he had assassinated the President. But not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. She also said that just the night before, the evening of the 21st, Lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. And this was said very much with a feeling of hurt.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. But372 my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. But then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. This, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of having written your sister in June of 1957—as a matter of fact, on June 29, 1957—[See Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, and transcript 390, post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "Last Saturday I started Russian class," and that was your class at the University of Pennsylvania in the summer of 1957—in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of Russian. Do you recall such a letter?

Mr. Jenner. In which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages. Is it a fact that that was one of the motivations?

Mr. Jenner. Well, I can't explain it. I assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke Russian, in seeking—for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. This does not awaken anything?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Three, that it advanced your "interest in Russian exchange."

Mrs. Paine. Well, I may have hoped so, starting Russian. But my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use.

Mr. Jenner. And, also, that ever since, "The Young Friends Conference in 1955," you had felt a leaning to the study of language.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. And I have so testified—I used the word "calling" in the testimony.

Mr. Jenner. And do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of Russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words—intellectual decision?

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall writing your mother, as far back as October 1956, that—no; this letter was to your whole family—that is, those back in Columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and—what was—Essie?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. Essie is my brother's wife.

Mr. Jenner. In which you then said you were thinking about studying Russian as an intellectual pursuit? Does that sound like something you might have said then?

Mrs. Paine. It sounds like I thought myself more intellectual at the time than I do now.

Mr. Jenner. But as you harken back on it, the elements I have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of Russian?

373 Mr. Jenner. And these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to know if you had any conversations with Marina on any of the following subjects. I have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and I will skip those. Have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with Marina respecting interviews by the FBI?

Mr. Jenner. Any conversations—have you told us all on the subject of Lee Oswald's Texas School Book Depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees?

Mr. Jenner. You have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service?

Mr. Jenner. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?

Mr. Jenner. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted to defect——

Mr. Jenner. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.

Mrs. Paine. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever speak or—well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting374 you had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles—let us say—did you discuss the Life article with her?

Mr. Jenner. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?

Mrs. Paine. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.

Mrs. Paine. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?

Mrs. Paine. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America—one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.

Mrs. Paine. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?

Mr. Jenner. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?

Mrs. Paine. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?

Mr. Jenner. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations on375 the part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?

Mr. Jenner. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection—of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.

Mr. Jenner. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?

I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?

Mr. Jenner. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.

Mrs. Paine. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.

But I think he did enjoy talking with other people—at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.

And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this—because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation—except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?

Mr. Jenner. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.

Mr. Jenner. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score—as to whether he was a man who had—who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?

Mrs. Paine. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.

I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the376 School Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.

I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.

Mrs. Paine. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see—fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?

Mr. Jenner. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.

Mr. Jenner. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband?

Mrs. Paine. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to—I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.

Mr. Jenner. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?

Mr. Jenner. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.

Mrs. Paine. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.

Mrs. Paine. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?

377 Mr. Jenner. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy—is that a group with which you are familiar?

Mrs. Paine. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?

Mr. Jenner. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?

Mr. Jenner. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.

Mr. Jenner. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?

Mr. Jenner. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?

Mrs. Paine. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.

Mr. Jenner. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I consider it to be—violence to be—always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?

First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.

I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not—when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.

On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.

I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have not yet——

Mrs. Paine. More than that—not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.

I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears—much more than my own personal touch with the story—although this just makes more poignant my grief.

Mr. Jenner. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you might378 have heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.

Mrs. Paine. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.

Mrs. Paine. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.

Mr. Jenner. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.

May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.

Mrs. Paine. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?

Mr. Jenner. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.

Mr. Jenner. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?

Mrs. Paine. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?

And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.

I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.

Mr. Jenner. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?

Mrs. Paine. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.

I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.

Mr. Jenner. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of your379 knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.

Mr. Jenner. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?

Mr. Jenner. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious—anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?

Mr. Jenner. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he—when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.

Mrs. Paine. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection is that——

Mr. Jenner. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, at no time from October—including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.

Mr. Jenner. Did the subject of abortion—was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When—part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park—she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.

Mr. Jenner. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?

Mr. Jenner. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.

Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy—that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.

Mrs. Paine. I am of the opinion that—saying the Russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.

Mr. Jenner. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or——

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?

Mrs. Paine. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.

Mr. Jenner. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?

Mr. Jenner. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?

Mr. Jenner. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital, would your answers be the same?

Mrs. Paine. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.

Mrs. Paine. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us what your activities—you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. Jenner. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?

Mrs. Paine. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior—that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.

381 Mr. Jenner. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mrs. Paine. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. Jenner. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?

Mrs. Paine. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.

Mr. Jenner. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?

Mrs. Paine. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.

Mrs. Paine. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.

Mr. Jenner. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?

Mr. Jenner. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.

Mrs. Paine. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.

Mr. Jenner. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary—and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does—then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.

You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar—that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?

Mrs. Paine. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I can382 in Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language—many more mistakes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that is true of your writing—that is, when you compose a letter?

Mrs. Paine. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?

Mrs. Paine. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home—I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.

Mr. Jenner. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?

Mr. Jenner. How fluent was—I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?

Mrs. Paine. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.

Mrs. Paine. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read—he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading—it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary—not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.

Mr. Jenner. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make—and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about—I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday—his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties in that connection?

Mr. Jenner. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject——

Mr. Jenner. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina—that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming—no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.

Mrs. Paine. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle—that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.

Mrs. Paine. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all—it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.

Mr. Jenner. Was that—did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?

She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job—I never did understand.

Mrs. Paine. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was—whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.

Mrs. Paine. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which—which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?

Mrs. Paine. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.

Mrs. Paine. Well, she mentioned—and I think I have said so—that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters—hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.

Mr. Jenner. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference—that difference in America as compared with Russia?

Mrs. Paine. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.

Mr. Jenner. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?

Mrs. Paine. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less—for that reason, and others—there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it—I am not sure I remember now.

Mr. Jenner. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my385 testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage—not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject—as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?

Mrs. Paine. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.

Mr. Jenner. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare—is that the way you put it?

Mrs. Paine. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to—among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.

Mrs. Paine. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.

I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say that—give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?

Mrs. Paine. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.

It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false—but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.

Mr. Jenner. What leads you to say that—it wasn't fully the case in what sense?

386 Mrs. Paine. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.

Mr. Jenner. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?

Mr. Jenner. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?

Mr. Jenner. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?

Mrs. Paine. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.

Mr. Jenner. Well, that may be affected—of course, you must understand—by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.

Mrs. Paine. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's—what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read—and perhaps it is not so—but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.

Mr. Jenner. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?

Mr. Jenner. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?

Mr. Jenner. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?

Mr. Jenner. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?

Mr. Jenner. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you—that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained—the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediate387 action, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.

I was very depressed by the feeling that here—not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me—and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.

And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part—that he needed help and/or confinement.

Mrs. Paine. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.

Mrs. Paine. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.

Mr. Jenner. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period—that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?

Mr. Jenner. During the period that Marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? When did you ordinarily arise?

Mrs. Paine. A similar time. When the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. She changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment.

Mr. Jenner. In her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier?

Mrs. Paine. She would have arisen later and let the baby, June, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning.

Mrs. Paine. But while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children.

388 Mr. Jenner. Have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home?

Mrs. Paine. I think I have. The only thing that I recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, Galya.

Mr. Jenner. This has been covered. I don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that Representative Ford has in mind.

Do you believe that Marina had any Communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country?

Mr. Jenner. Have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which Lee Oswald and you or you and your husband or Lee and Marina and you and your husband took part?

Mrs. Paine. Let's see if I understand you. All the activities in which my husband and/or I were with any of the Oswalds?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attend any meetings together—that is either you and Lee on the one hand, or you and Marina on the other, or you and Marina and Lee together?

Mrs. Paine. There is just the one of my husband and Lee at the Civil Liberties Union meeting.

Mr. Jenner. Have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the Oswalds or either of them?

Mr. Jenner. And the same question as to Marina. Have you told us everything—I will put it this way. Have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and Marina on the other?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I of course had a great deal of common interest in children. I think she read to me from a book on child care in Russian that she had—or perhaps I have not said that. Do you recall?

Mrs. Paine. And we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children.

Mr. Jenner. But you had no common—you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No—that's right. You mean which took us to a group with other people?

Mr. Jenner. Or women's clubs or meetings of that character. She occasionally accompanied you on your visits to Mrs. Roberts, I assume.

Mr. Jenner. Have you told us everything you know about Lee's income and sources of funds?

389 Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with Marina—it would have to be on the 23d of November—about the blanket package and the gun in the package?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have one—I will put it this way. Did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the 22d of November, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with Marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home?

I take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw Lee Oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in Irving, Tex. in or about your home or premises.

I will look through the tag end of these notes and I think we have reached the end.

You have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the Oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. In connection with his seeking work in Houston, Tex., in the course of that conversation with you girls in New Orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in Houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in Houston?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe I have already answered that—that he said he had a friend in Houston, and that I was not sure whether that was so or not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having any connections or friends in Philadelphia?

Mr. Jenner. But he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in Philadelphia.

Mrs. Paine. He mentioned Philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall a long-distance call received by Marina while she was at your home?

Mrs. Paine. There was a call which I have related from Lee to her from New Orleans on May 9th.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by Marina or Lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at Trans-Texas, as a cargo handler at $310 per month?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. This was right at the time that he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Jenner. Well, I won't say it was offered—that he might have been able to secure a job through the Texas Employment Commission as a cargo handler at $310 per month.

390 Mrs. Paine. I do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through—that there was not that possibility.

Mr. Jenner. And about the time he obtained employment at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency—whether a public or private employment agency I don't know—but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him.

Mr. Jenner. I hand you a document, Mrs. Paine, marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469, entitled "Translation from Russian."

(The document referred to was marked Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 for identification.)

Having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you?

Mrs. Paine. That was some time after the assassination. This note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for Marina which I took to the Irving police and they transmitted to the Secret Service, and thence to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence as Ruth Paine Exhibit 469 the document that has been so marked. Would you look at that. Having examined that, may I ask you a question or two about it.

Has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the Russian language?

Mr. Jenner. Having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I can explain two phrases I did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. It is a socially useful interest—and then I go on to say, "By this I mean I get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and I mention some.

Mrs. Paine. This is written June 7, 1957, according to the date on it. I enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in Russian exchange.

Then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision—I am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. Then the decision to study specifically391 Russian—as it says right here, "The decision to study Russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. That is something I thought out, that kind of intellectual—rather than a prompting from within.

Mr. Jenner. And when you use the expression—you Quakers use the expression that you have a leading—you mean a prompting from your—inner prompting.

Mr. Jenner. I would like to confirm with you, if I can, Mrs. Paine—your recollection is that Lee Oswald had come home on the evening of November 8, and that it was the following day, the following morning, the 9th, that you took him, with Marina, to the driver's license application bureau.

Mr. Jenner. And that it was some other weekend that he did not come on Friday, but came on Saturday morning.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before?

Mrs. Paine. No, I mean the morning before. But that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. It was the morning of the 9th, before we left for the driver training bureau. And I am just saying that if he had come in on Saturday, I doubt it would have been that early.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual.

Mr. Jenner. That he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau.

Mr. Jenner. Did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion?

Mrs. Paine. There were at least two. I think probably just two. And add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. Three lessons altogether.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an English-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what I call the Mexico letter?

Do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that Robert Oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband?

Mr. Jenner. Yes, other than my question. That is the trouble with leading questions.

Do you recall whether at any time in your home Lee Oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of—fictional assassination of a President or anyone holding high public office?

392 Mr. Jenner. Do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television?

Mr. Jenner. You mentioned yesterday, I believe it was, you recalled his looking at—late one evening—at a spy movie on television.

Mr. Jenner. It is your recollection that you did not ask Mrs. Randle to call the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Jenner. There was no refusal on the part of Mrs. Randle to do so. I am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal.

Mr. Jenner. Of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether or not Mrs. Randle, as a friendly gesture—her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly; yes. I do recall saying that Lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. And, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the Manner Bakery.

Mr. Jenner. At least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I believe I do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck.

Mr. Jenner. Harkening back to the meeting at Mr. Glover's apartment or home on the 22d of February 1963, do you recall whether Lee Oswald said anything about whether he was a Communist?

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the Communist Party while he was in Russia?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not. I did not listen to everything he said that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by Col. J. D. Wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I would say this was a week or less before the assassination. He called and asked—he called from Arlington, Tex., which is between Fort Worth and Dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to——

Mrs. Paine. To talk with Marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively.

Mr. Jenner. You are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it?

Mr. Jenner. I put the question as to what you wished to say. Have you completed your full recollection of the incident?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that he asked to come—that he worked at Arlington State College on Tuesdays and Thursdays; that he called us on Tuesday and asked to come Thursday, and we said Thursday was not the best time, and he—and we agreed upon the following Tuesday.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, perhaps an hour. And I cannot even recall exactly what time, except I think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner.

Mrs. Paine. I cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was. An interest in the language motivated his coming. He is a teacher of Russian at Arlington State College.

Do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the Oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the Commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. Paine. Well, you have not yet asked me if I had seen anything of a note purported to be written by Lee at the time of the attempt on Walker. And I might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I wish you would—how that occurred. Tell me all you know about it—all you knew about it up to and including November 22.

Mr. Jenner. Is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. Well, just that I was shown a portion of a note by two Secret Service men.

Mrs. Paine. It certainly was. Perhaps a week later. I had sent Marina one of these small collections of letters, such as I have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the Irving police. And on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. I referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. One of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as I had used Benjamin Spock's "Baby and Child Care" when my babies were small—that is constant daily reference. And I thought she would want to have it with her.

I believe it was probably the next day I got a call from the Secret Service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. I said yes, of course. They arrived. Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service, who was acting as translator, and I think the other man's name was Patterson, and he spoke English only—Mr. Gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. He asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether I could identify the handwriting and whether I had ever seen it before. I said I could not identify the handwriting. I observed that it was written in Russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the English word—that it said "This key"—using the word "key" rather than the Russian word—and went on to say it was for a post office box. And394 that is as far as I read. And Mr. Gopadze indicated that it was his impression that I had sent this note to Marina. And this surprised me. And I said——

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly is. It astounded me. I said that—I repeated that I had not seen it and did not know how I might possibly have sent this to Marina Oswald. I asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say.

We went on for some time with Mr. Gopadze—this in Russian—saying that "Mrs. Paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to Mr. Gopadze, "I am. What more can I do than what I have said." And finally we went over to English and included Mr. Patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. Then I realized what must have happened is that I did send Marina Oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the Irving police and the Secret Service. And that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. And they left.

Then I don't recall whether this first reference to General Walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but I am certain I made no connection between the two. It was not until it was reported by the Houston Chronicle that there was a note written by Lee Oswald at the time of the attempt on Walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that I made a connection to the note that had been shown me by Mr. Gopadze.

I bring this up because I was irritated by Mr. John Thorne's statement to me that he thought that I was probably the one to have given the Houston Chronicle information about this note. I was sufficiently irritated that I called the Houston Chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. He said no, he could not. I said that I was curious, because someone had thought that I had. He said, "We can certainly tell anyone that you did not." But I don't think Mr. Thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the 9th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau.

Mrs. Paine. For a late lunch, I would say. I might say Lee was as gay as I have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. He sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the Russian language, which tickled and pained Marina, both at once.

Mr. Jenner. And he was at home when you left? And was he at home when you returned?

Mr. Jenner. Now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers?

Mr. Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Lee Oswald could have been at the Lincoln-Mercury dealership in downtown Dallas on that day?

Mr. Jenner. Was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day?

Mrs. Paine. It is entirely possible that I made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. But I would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time.

395 Mr. Jenner. In any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day.

Mrs. Paine. The entire day. Shall I give what recollections I have for activities of the 10th?

Mrs. Paine. It is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which I have referred occurred on the 10th, late in the afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. On Sunday afternoon. I would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. It was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that Michael Paine was also at the home. I cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but I would guess so. Then I asked the two men, Lee and Michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. And as I have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, Commission Exhibit 103, the note referring to Mexico City—I will add to that testimony here—I remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. This is the folding front, you know. I just opened it, put it in and closed it. And then we moved all the furniture in the room around.

Mr. Jenner. And on that occasion, you took the note, which is Commission Exhibit 103, which I call the Mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary.

Mrs. Paine. After having left it on my desk for 2 full days, waiting for it to be picked up.

Mr. Jenner. Have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period?

Mr. Jenner. Would it have been possible for Lee Oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording?

Mrs. Paine. Wait. I take it back. I had one, a small one, which did not work well. My best recollection is that Michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. He was using it at his shop.

Mr. Jenner. So that it is your opinion that Lee Oswald could not have made any tape recording.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the FBI on or about October 27 or on or about October 29, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of Lee Oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any396 occasion when he was in Irving, Tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home?

Mrs. Paine. The only time when he was there and I was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and I now know that I can recall was Monday, the 11th of November. I have described my presence at the home on the 9th and 10th. And to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that I was away from the home when he was there. I may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you.

Mrs. Paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of Marina seeking or obtaining employment in Philadelphia arose?

Mrs. Paine. When she was with me in May of 1963, we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the East—this was before I had plans to—definite plans to teach for the summer.

She was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in New York, Philadelphia, or Washington, where there were larger speaking Russian populations, and where her knowledge of Russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. She was quite excited about this possibility and wrote Lee a letter in which she referred to it.

After thinking about it, I felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and I thought she would be apt to be discouraged.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Even I am exhausted of questions, Mrs. Paine. I want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. Some of these inquiries, I know, have been quite detailed. Unfortunately we must make this sort of search. You have been very helpful.

Mrs. Paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. It is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. And I now put that question to you.

Mrs. Paine. I understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to Texas.

Mr. Jenner. It would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to Texas, because I understand you are going back to Texas tomorrow, or Monday morning.

Mrs. Paine. Monday morning. So realizing—while I would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, I will waive the right to do so.

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The testimony of Ruth Hyde Paine was taken at 7:30 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., home of deponent by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Jenner. Let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of Mrs. Ruth Avery Hyde Paine, who appeared before the Commission last week and whose supplemental deposition I took on Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Jenner. Present at the taking of this deposition is John Joe Howlett, H-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the U.S. Secret Service.

We are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of Mrs. Paine's home; is that correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Howlett and I have measured the rooms in the presence of Mrs. Paine. The dining room-kitchen area is open. It's full length from wall to wall is 25 feet and 4 inches in length and 12 feet, 4 inches in width. The distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is 31 feet, 2 inches. That particular bedroom in the northeast corner is 12 feet by 12 feet, 1 inch. The southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom I have just described and it is 12 feet, 1 inch by 10 feet, 9 inches. That particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto West Fifth Street. The northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. These are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window.

Mrs. Paine. The southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, I think, gives a slightly larger impression than I have of it—it's around 43 inches wide.

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took the measurements discussed.)

Mr. Jenner. The picture window facing on Fifth Street is—why don't you recite it, Mr. Howlett?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the FBI agent's automobile was on, as I recall your testimony, November 5, 1963, so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence?

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of Counsel Jenner and Counsel Jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.)

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record. Mrs. Paine, I have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the FBI agent's automobile where he parked on November 5, 1962, when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection I have to say to you that I cannot be absolutely certain that the blue Oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. I don't remember for certainty. If my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that it was on the street. You now see Mr. Howlett's car.

Mr. Jenner. I will describe that and you listen to me as I describe it. I am now in the southeast bedroom of Mrs. Paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto Fifth Avenue.

Mr. Jenner. And I see two automobiles; first, there is a large—what is that, an elm or oak?

Mr. Jenner. An oak tree—I would say about 26 inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. We will measure it, John Joe, and the lawn in due course, but the Secret Service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the Paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. Is that a four-door or two-door?

Mr. Jenner. It is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. The front bumper of Agent Howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. The two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, I take it, the driveway to the Roberts' home.

Mrs. Paine. No; they are on the other side of the street. It's a home that's not now used.

Mr. Jenner. That home that I am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year.

Mr. Jenner. And the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the Paine premises?

Mr. Jenner. Could you wait just 1 second? I wish John Joe would check me on this standing where I am, looking out this window.

It is impossible—at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb I have described.

Agent Howlett. I am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers.

Mr. Jenner. You can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers?

(At this point Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and Mrs. Paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, Mrs. Paine proceeding to care for her children and Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. Shortly thereafter Mrs. Paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you were present when I described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on Fifth Street?

Mr. Jenner. And, was I accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate?

Mr. Jenner. On the 5th day of November did an agent of the FBI come for a second time to interview you?

Mrs. Paine. I didn't recall the day, but I have been told it was that day—yes.

Mr. Jenner. While you do recall that it was 4 or 5 days after the 1st of November?

Mrs. Paine. It was a fair day, and I think it was afternoon, but I'm not sure—absolutely certain of that.

Mr. Jenner. Did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home?

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the FBI automobile?

Mr. Jenner. Or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number?

Mr. Jenner. Did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which Agent Hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of November 1 when he had interviewed you?

Mrs. Paine. This is entirely possible. I recall distinctly that I noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me——

Mrs. Paine. I think Mr. Hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. He made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits.

Mr. Jenner. And having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall exactly whether it was down—my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the Ponders used to live in.

400 Mrs. Paine. P-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]—Ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of Fifth Street and——

Mrs. Paine. The southwest corner of the crossing of Fifth Street and whatever it is—you know, Westbrook.

Mrs. Paine. Yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or I may be confused with what Mrs. Roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her.

Mr. Jenner. Let me ask you: Did you see his car, his automobile on that day—November 1st?

Mr. Jenner. Did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away?

Mr. Jenner. And had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on Agent Hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, November 1st?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with 20-20 vision?

Mr. Jenner. Now, facing as you are, onto Fifth Street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the FBI automobile passed when Mr. Hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I had already taken my attention elsewhere, that I didn't try to notice, and certainly I did not notice whether he passed in front of the house.

Mrs. Paine. That's possible—she might have if one can see that with normal vision.

Mr. Jenner. So that on the November 1st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of Agent Hosty's automobile?

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did—you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not?

Mr. Jenner. In any event, the automobile of Agent Hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth.

Mrs. Paine. He often took a shower when he arrived home from work on Friday, when he arrived here from work on a Friday afternoon and before dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of November 22?

Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of him at all on the morning of November 22d, except an empty coffee cup.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that, and I should say in the presence of yourself and Mr. Howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area.

Mr. Jenner. And when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as I recall on November 22 in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it?

Mrs. Paine. If I'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. I do leave my room door open.

Mr. Jenner. Well, apart from whether you were asleep, I just wanted to get that—whether you could hear it.

Mr. Jenner. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?

Mr. Jenner. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?

Mr. Jenner. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?

(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.

The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by402 16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?

Mr. Jenner. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?

Mr. Jenner. Directly in front of us—I am standing right behind you—on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?

Mr. Jenner. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?

Mr. Jenner. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.

Mr. Jenner. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage—by the way, how wide is that?

Agent Howlett. It is 6 feet 8½ inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?

Mr. Jenner. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?

Mr. Jenner. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?

Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall—I recall the shot which included that area.

Mr. Jenner. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?

Agent Howlett. It is actually about 6¾ inches to the center of the light switch.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?

Mr. Jenner. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?

Mr. Jenner. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now,403 I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)

Mr. Jenner. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?

Mr. Jenner. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach—it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.

Mr. Jenner. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?

Mr. Jenner. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?

Mr. Jenner. And I judge—well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.

Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?

Mr. Jenner. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?

404 Mrs. Paine. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom—well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for—my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November—in there in the storeroom.

Mr. Jenner. All right, that's an interesting development. When you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?

Mr. Jenner. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?

Mr. Jenner. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.

Mr. Jenner. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?

Mr. Jenner. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?

Mr. Jenner. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?

Mr. Jenner. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.

Mr. Jenner. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?

Mr. Jenner. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?

Mr. Jenner. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?

Mr. Jenner. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Jenner. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?

Mr. Jenner. I am only asking while you were present—while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?

Mr. Jenner. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?

Mr. Jenner. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot—and the two places—that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

The blanket was lying approximately here from about here—in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.

Mr. Jenner. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk—is that a child's desk?

Mr. Jenner. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?

Mr. Jenner. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also—are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?

Mr. Jenner. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.

Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.

There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands—it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment—metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.

The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?

Mr. Jenner. Would you measure off 45 inches on that—we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.

(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?

Mr. Jenner. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.

Mr. Jenner. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?

Mr. Jenner. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?

Mr. Jenner. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.

Mrs. Paine. I'll place it where—where the outside edge is—where the outside edge of the package was.

Mrs. Paine. Let me take more packages—I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?

Mr. Jenner. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?

Mrs. Paine. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.

Mr. Jenner. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?

Mr. Jenner. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?

Mr. Jenner. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position—I don't recall.

407 Mr. Jenner. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Jenner. And you have now located it as where you saw it—it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is—I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.

Mr. Jenner. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?

Mr. Jenner. And it is a Craftsman saw—it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?

Mr. Jenner. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?

Mr. Jenner. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?

Mr. Jenner. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?

Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate—take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think there is any point in my doing that—I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.

Mr. Jenner. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.

The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.

Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier—the first time?

Mr. Jenner. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?

Mr. Jenner. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?

Mr. Jenner. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?

Mr. Jenner. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.

Mr. Jenner. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?

Mr. Jenner. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?

Mrs. Paine. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."

(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?

Mr. Jenner. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?

Mrs. Paine. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?

Mr. Jenner. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?

409 Mrs. Paine. Marina followed. They had asked to search—I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.

Mr. Jenner. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?

(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)

Mr. Jenner. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?

Mr. Jenner. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?

Mr. Jenner. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?

Mr. Jenner. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that——

Mrs. Paine [interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You got about what—halfway into the garage facing south?

Mrs. Paine. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."

Mr. Jenner. And would you remain there—Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the—southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing at the——

Mrs. Paine. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.

Mr. Jenner. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.

410 Mr. Jenner. And you in turn—your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?

Mrs. Paine. Yes—I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"—she had seen some time previously—seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.

Mrs. Paine. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.

Mr. Jenner. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?

Mr. Jenner. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?

Mr. Jenner. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?

Mr. Jenner. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.

Mr. Jenner. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?

Mr. Jenner. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?

Mr. Jenner. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?

Mr. Jenner. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.

Mr. Jenner. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?

Mr. Jenner. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?

(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.

Mr. Jenner. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?

Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?

(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.

Mr. Jenner. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package—the string was white string and not the dark brown string?

Mr. Jenner. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?

Mrs. Paine. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.

Mr. Jenner. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."

(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?

Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.

Mr. Jenner. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.

Mrs. Paine. That's right—having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.

Mr. Jenner. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary—the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?

Mr. Jenner. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?

Mr. Jenner. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?

Mrs. Paine. It was in the middle of the space between the—the middle of the north wall of the living room.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?

Mr. Jenner. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day—on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?

Mr. Jenner. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?

Mr. Jenner. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?

Mrs. Paine. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.

Mr. Jenner. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?

Mrs. Paine. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November—that same day that I read the note.

Mr. Jenner. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?

Mr. Jenner. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out—facing toward Fifth Street?

Mr. Jenner. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?

Mr. Jenner. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?

Mrs. Paine. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and Marina was to the west.

Mr. Jenner. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?

Mr. Jenner. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]—because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?

Mrs. Paine. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.

Mr. Jenner. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed——

Mr. Jenner. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?

Mr. Jenner. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?

(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. Jenner. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mr. Jenner. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?

Mr. Jenner. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?

Mr. Jenner. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?

414 Mr. Jenner. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?

Mr. Jenner. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?

Mr. Jenner. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?

Mr. Jenner. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block—that's across Westbrook.

Mr. Jenner. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?

Mr. Jenner. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)

Mr. Jenner. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung—you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?

Mr. Jenner. Well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude—you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned?

Mr. Jenner. Now, as I recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening—you don't know how many times—you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not?

Mr. Jenner. And is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. And that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward Fifth Street; correct?

Mr. Jenner. And the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. And Mrs. Paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens?

Mr. Jenner. In preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is—since it is so much your habit—you can't remember the number of times—it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze?

Mr. Jenner. Would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which I notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered?

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine has produced still another thing, and I take it, Mrs. Paine, that you meant two boxes?

Mrs. Paine. I considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. They are what I call a large hollow block.

Mrs. Paine. That's all right. I describe them as—they are sets—anything a child wishes to make it into for play.

Mr. Jenner. One of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not?

Mr. Jenner. John Joe, will you measure that which Mrs. Paine describes as a block and which I describe as a box?

Agent Howlett. It is 7½ inches deep, with 1/2 inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of 8 inches.

Mr. Jenner. John Joe, is that which Mrs. Paine calls a block and I call a box, rectangular—it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it—the opposite side—is that not correct?

Agent Howlett. It is open on the top, yes. It is closed on the five sides and open on the top.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description?

Mr. Jenner. And those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. I had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what time of the evening, and I take it it was the evening, am I correct?

Mr. Jenner. What time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes?

Mr. Jenner. Were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage——

Mr. Jenner. Without offending you, Mrs. Paine, I assume that that door to the garage is normally—you are careful to keep it closed?

Mr. Jenner. To the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion?

417 Mr. Jenner. What was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything?

Mr. Jenner. That headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not?

Mr. Jenner. It is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right?

Mr. Jenner. That bulb that's in there now, Mrs. Paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question?

Mr. Jenner. John Joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is?

Agent Howlett. Yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls.

Mr. Jenner. The garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when I say "garage door" I mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which I see from this doorway?

Mr. Jenner. And frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it?

Mr. Jenner. And had Marina come to be aware of your habit? In that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage?

Mr. Jenner. I believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been Marina who had left the light on?

Mr. Jenner. Prior to the time you entered the garage around 9 o'clock that evening. Had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, I mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know how long he had been out of it when I went in and418 found the light on. It is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time I entered.

Mr. Jenner. Now, sitting as I am, in the dining room area of your kitchen—dining room space—even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and Marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area?

Mr. Jenner. And, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area?

Mrs. Paine. That would be unquestionably true—if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all.

Mr. Jenner. But you were not, I gather, at all times that evening up to 9 o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. I was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, I would say.

Mr. Jenner. Were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes?

Mr. Jenner. Now, during that period of time, Lee Oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it?

Mrs. Paine. I think it's likely—it would have been likely that I would know it then too.

Mr. Jenner. Well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? How could you necessarily have known it—that's the point I am making.

Mrs. Paine. I could not necessarily have seen him enter. If I was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room.

Mr. Jenner. And I think I asked you during your testimony before the Commission—were you conscious during the period up to 9 o'clock that evening that Lee Oswald had been in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. It is my—I recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. I can't recall seeing him go in.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to pages 144 to 147, inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "Affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the President," which I will state for the record was furnished me by the Dallas police this afternoon. Pages 144 through 147 are headed, "Literature" as having been found by the Dallas police either in the home of Mrs. Paine here in Irving, or in Lee Oswald's quarters on Beckley Street in Dallas.

Would you please examine that list, Mrs. Paine, and you will notice each page is headed "Name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be.

The second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "Irving" or the word "Beckley"?

Mr. Jenner. And there is a third column, headed "Microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number?

419 Mr. Jenner. Now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to November 22, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. [Examining instruments referred to.] I do not think I see anything that I had seen or have since seen.

Mr. Jenner. Take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The witness has now pointed at page 146 to what is described as a magazine "Free World News." That's your own?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know whether that item is one I have seen or not, from the description—it is microfilm 198.

Mr. Jenner. You can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around?

Mr. Jenner. And the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out—you have picked out?

Mr. Jenner. And is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in Irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I'm quite certain I did not see—well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from Minsk.

Mrs. Paine. I can't tell from that—perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what I recall having seen.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Now, I will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy pages 144, 145, 146, and 147, to which we have been referring.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods.

Mr. Jenner. You said you would leave that package in precisely the place—422wherever it was last week when you were in Washington, D.C., and have you touched it since you came home?

Mr. Jenner. And is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on November 21, 1963?

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of Mr. Howlett where that package is?

(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by Counsel Jenner.)

Mrs. Paine. It is on a shelf above the workbench. It extends north of the north edge of the workbench.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker?

Mr. Jenner. Well, what I am going to do first—I'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind?

Mr. Jenner. The witness is now referring to a package which Mr. Howlett, and I will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about 28 inches long, maybe 30, and about 6½ inches high and about 6½ inches through.

While it is still wrapped in place, Mr. Howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular.

Mr. Jenner. The package is 2 feet 11 inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is 5 inches from the outer wall of the storeroom I have described, and Mr. Howlett has now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance?

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, I'll ask Mr. Howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of Mrs. Paine and see what it contains.

The package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and Mrs. Paine is opening it. Mrs. Paine, and in your presence, Mr. Howlett, what does the package contain?

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time?

Mrs. Paine. This must have come around a package or something I had bought. I have never had a supply of this variety.

Mr. Jenner. Now, John Joe, will you favor Mrs. Paine by putting her package back the way it was?

Mr. Jenner. For the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of Sears, Roebuck & Co., Dallas, No. 4017, and "Will call—M. R. Paine."

Mr. Jenner. It is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified—is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home?

Mr. Jenner. And is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance?

Mrs. Paine. These blinds did not come to me from Sears, Roebuck, but that—I used to replace them did. Now, whether the shades I bought came in this package, I have no idea whatever.

Mr. Jenner. Well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home?

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is?

Mr. Jenner. This paper—when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on—in light-tan wrapping paper—at this time a little bit darker, I think, than the package we have just been describing, and Mr. Howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. That package, Mr. Howlett, is also on the shelf.

Mr. Jenner. But its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described?

Mrs. Paine. My best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which I did have in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in Mrs Paine's presence here.

Mr. Jenner. It contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which I, in my vernacular call spring window shades.

Mrs. Paine. All, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. And Mr. Howlett and Mrs. Paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic?

Mr. Jenner. The spring to which the shade itself—the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring.

Mr. Jenner. The paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did424 the other one an address sticker of Sears, Roebuck & Co., No. 4017, addressed to Michael R. Paine.

Mr. Jenner. And so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from Sears, Roebuck & Co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home?

Mr. Jenner. It was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping?

Mrs. Paine. And as part of the testimony I said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping.

Mr. Jenner. You, of course—you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped?

Mr. Jenner. Is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages?

Mr. Jenner. And, Mr. Howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages?

Mr. Jenner. Now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct?

Mr. Jenner. Would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, Mr. Howlett—how many do you have there?

Agent Howlett. There are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, Mr. Howlett, will you please?

While he is doing that, Mrs. Paine, I notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in Washington last week.

Mrs. Paine. This is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in Washington. It contains madrigal music. It was on November 22 at the apartment where my husband was living.

Agent Howlett. I have just finished searching both shelves and I don't find any other curtain rods.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, are the curtain rods that Mr. Howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the Commission last week?

Mr. Jenner. And you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of 1963?

Mr. Jenner. And in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the 21st or 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Jenner. May we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record?

Mr. Jenner. Miss Reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark Ruth Paine Exhibit 275 and the white one as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 276.

(The curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as425 Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 275 and 276, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, Mr. Howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. Let me describe the configuration of these rods. They are very light weight—what would you say that metal is, Mr. Howlett, tin—heavy tin?

Mr. Jenner. They are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are——

Mr. Jenner. These curtain rods—the ends of each of them are turned. Those ends extending are turned up how many inches?

Agent Howlett. Yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about 2-3/8 inches.

Mr. Jenner. Now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "U," do they not, a long "U"?

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and Marina Oswald subsequent to November 22, 1963.

Mr. Jenner. You appear only to have the translation—will you explain that remark?

Mrs. Paine. The correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one Christmas card from Marina.

Mr. Jenner. When it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals?

Mrs. Paine. I thought I had the rough draft of what I wrote—I appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. I made a translation for several of these—I made a translation at the time and sent them off.

TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT

Mr. Jenner. While we are doing that, Miss Oliver, since I have involved Agent Howlett in this deposition—Mr. Howlett, would you rise and be sworn and I will ask you some questions in connection with this deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Jenner. And you accompanied Miss Oliver and myself this evening, brought us out to Mrs. Paine's home?

Mr. Jenner. And you have been present throughout my examination of Mrs.426 Paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted me, have you not?

Mr. Jenner. In making measurements and also in recounting the appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise?

Mr. Jenner. In all those measurements that you made and reported to the reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the conditions?

Mr. Jenner. Did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the various measurements that are now recorded in this record?

Mr. Jenner. And were you present during the time that I also called figures or ordered descriptions?

Mr. Jenner. And were the figures I called and the descriptions I made, to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate?

Agent Howlett. I believe I previously reported that as 3 feet 3 inches, and I think it should have been 3 feet 8 inches.

Mrs. Paine. It's probably 3 feet 6 inches—it's identical to the shade we have just measured.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner, Agent Howlett, and the witness, Mrs. Paine.)

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

Mrs. Paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated here at the table, some documents—what are they, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I have here translations of seven of the letters, and they are the seven most recent letters that I have sent to Marina Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. And I will now mark that seven-page document as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277," for identification.)

Mrs. Paine. And, I would like to describe what little correspondence between November 22 and the first date here—December 27.

Mr. Jenner. Would you forgive me if I asked you a few more questions about the exhibit first?

Mr. Jenner. "Ruth Paine Exhibit 277" consists of seven pages of translations prepared by you?

427 Mr. Jenner. Of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which you transmitted or delivered?

Mr. Jenner. You transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other fashion to Marina?

Mr. Jenner. And do you note throughout this material the means or method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention?

Mr. Jenner. And when did you make the transcripts that now appear as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, by transcript I mean translations.

Mrs. Paine. Yes—the first three letters here, I have a note at the top indicating when the translation was made.

Mr. Jenner. When were they made with relation to when the originals were dispatched?

Mrs. Paine. Well, depending—the translations were all made on January 26. The first three letters were written respectively, December 27, December 28 and January 3.

Mrs. Paine. From my notes in Russian of the original letter which I cannot now find.

Mr. Jenner. You prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you wished, you then wrote the final answer?

Mrs. Paine. That's right—the other translations were all made at the time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was written and sent.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed carefully the translations which now compose this Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful?

Mr. Jenner. Now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced Exhibit 277—what are those papers?

Mrs. Paine. I have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence there was between November 22 and the first date of this exhibit, which was December 27.

Mr. Jenner. Refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which appears as December 27, in Ruth Paine Exhibit 277?

Mrs. Paine. There were two or three short notes written by myself to Marina Oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. I sent these via the Irving Police to Secret Service. I have no copies of these, but I have seen one in translation, I believe it to have been the second one that I wrote, among the Commission papers that were shown to me in Washington.

There was a note and Christmas card sent to me by Marina and postmarked December 21. Then, there was also a note and Christmas card sent by me to Marina on the same date, December 21.

Mr. Jenner. Are you able to translate now for the record the wording of428 the Christmas card or message received from Marina by you?

Mrs. Paine. I would rather have a few minutes with it before doing it for the record. I have not done it in advance because time didn't serve. I do want here to try to describe what I recall as the content of my note, which I have no copy of that.

Mrs. Paine. These, no; this is descriptive of what I sent and the situation surrounding the note I sent to her on December 21, and as I say, I have no copy of that note. I included a Christmas greeting from myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said I didn't want to bother her, but I did want to see her.

Mr. Jenner. Is this the note you had in mind when you testified last week before the Commission that you had gone to his home and delivered something to him?

Mr. Jenner. Along with some other letters that had come containing contributions from kindhearted Americans which had been sent to Marina and arrived at your home?

Mrs. Paine. That's right. I talked with Mr. Martin and after having talked with him I added something to my note, saying that I had talked with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. I also brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped Christmas gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate for Marina's children. When I opened the package, though the outside had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "Rachel" and "Junie", and clearly Christmas gifts for Marina and the two children. I also brought a small box of Christmas cookies for the Martin family.

Agent Howlett. I remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the house—the first bedroom—the one which Marina was in, and that picture window is correctly 3 feet 7 inches wide.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mrs. Paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the Commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into Dallas with Lee Oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on your typewriter repaired?

Mr. Jenner. Have you, since your return to Irving from Washington, found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. I looked up the check stubs to see what date I wrote the Weaver Office Machines Co. a check to pay for that typewriter key repair. The check was written when we went to pick up the machine.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you said "we." Did Lee Oswald accompany you on that occasion as well?

Mrs. Paine. No, he did not; just Marina and myself and our children went in, and the check stub is dated October 18.

Mr. Jenner. And does that refresh your recollection as to the date when you picked up the typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. That is, of course, the date I picked up the typewriter, and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding Monday that I took the typewriter in.

Mr. Jenner. And what was the occasion again to—why you had the typewriter repaired as of that time?

Mr. Jenner. Incorrect in what sense—it had an incorrect Russian symbol—Russian language symbol?

Mr. Jenner. And you wanted to replace it for what reason—did Lee Oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances?

Mrs. Paine. I was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching Russian to one student.

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything else about that incident that you would like to add to the record.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, I can think of no additional questions at the moment.

Is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in Washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the Commission as possibly having a bearing on the Commission's investigation, the nature of which you have been heretofore advised?

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

In gifts received by you since November 22, 1963, at your home, that is, gifts to Marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, some of them did. I regret that most of those that came as cash came early and I simply sent them on to Secret Service as cash. After—about the end of 1963 I began to wonder, since I had not heard directly from Marina, whether she was getting these, and I therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account.

Mr. Jenner. Had you talked with John Thorne, or Jim Martin in advance of delivering those checks—"yes" or "no"?

Mrs. Paine. In person, at his office, whether Marina Oswald was signing, and by this I meant—endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. From this I assumed she could sign her name. I left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her.

Mrs. Paine. It does look as if I had left it—let's see—given to the hand of John Thorne.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277 and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not?

Mr. Jenner. And the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page?

Mr. Jenner. And do I take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of Ruth Paine Exhibit 277, accompanying it was a check?

Mr. Jenner. And the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated December 28, 1963, check number 205 in the sum of $10, payable to Marina Oswald, which we will mark as Ruth Paine Exhibit 277-A.

(Exhibit marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. On the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "Marina Oswald." Do you see it?

Mr. Jenner. Looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of Exhibit 277-A, in your opinion is or is not that Marina Oswald's signature?

Mr. Jenner. Did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check?

Mr. Jenner. And you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check.

Mr. Jenner. On the Southwest Bank and Trust Co., and what is the other document No. 277-A, this one, which is dated January 8, 1964, and it is the sum of $5 and it is check No. 216.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Referring to Exhibit 277-A and 277-B, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks?

Mr. Jenner. And these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, Southwest Bank & Trust Co.?

Mr. Jenner. Referring to Exhibit No. 277-A and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side?

Mr. Jenner. Each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "For deposit only, to Oswald Trust Fund," is that right?

Mr. Jenner. And are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank?

Mr. Jenner. Miss Reporter, I hand you the check No. 205 dated December 28, 1963, please mark it Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-A. And mark check No. 216, dated January 8, 1964, as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 277-B.

(Instruments marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 277-A and 277-B.)

Mr. Jenner. May I have your permission, please Mrs. Paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as I have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, I want to return them all to you at once.

Mr. Jenner. Anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the Commission in this investigation?

Mr. Jenner. We have been on and off the record during the course of this session, Mrs. Paine, in which I have had some conversation with you. Is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which I have not brought out?

Mr. Jenner. Is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the record by Mr. Howlett or by me?

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mrs. Paine, off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Back on the record now, please. Facing north, in the rear of the Paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. The plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence 5 feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. That yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is 80 feet, 6 inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is 51 feet. There is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is 19½ feet south of the rear fence. There are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is 7 feet, 9 inches in circumference. There is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about—not quite a foot thick.

The tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of 6 feet, 3 inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at 3 feet from the ground.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the Christmas card from Marina, about which you have testified this evening?

Mr. Jenner. Of the Christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record?

Now, you have handed me a Christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "Wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. I have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing?

Mr. Jenner. You also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at Dallas on December 21, 1963, and there appears to be some handwriting on that. Are you familiar with that handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. Here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself—everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in English?

Mr. Jenner. And this is as you testified—she was able to write English to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes?

Mr. Jenner. Miss Reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits I now hand you as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278, the card, and 278-A, the envelope?

(Instruments referred to marked by the reporter as Ruth Paine Exhibit Nos. 278 and 278-A, for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it?

Mr. Jenner. And was Ruth Paine Exhibit 278, the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 278-A?

Mr. Jenner. And except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it?

Mr. Jenner. And may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when I have photostated it we will return them to you?

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening.

Is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, Mrs. Paine?

Mr. Jenner. I do want to ask you this—while you were translating the Christmas card message, Mr. Howlett and I measured—we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and I recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. I noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline.

Mr. Jenner. And I measured that as being located at 19½ feet south of the back porch—of the back fence?

Mr. Jenner. Is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in Washington as to where Marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of November 22 when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "Lee Oswald" in connection with events that day?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was not that that I heard. I heard that a shot had been fired from the School Book Depository Building and this is what I told her.

Mr. Jenner. And is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day?

Mrs. Paine. I can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of November 22, I said that Marina told me that when I reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the TV had announced that the shots which hit the President were fired from the School Book Depository.433 She recalled that to me in the evening and told me when I had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. I don't recall whether I included that, but I remember that during the Commission hearings—I have recalled it since.

Mr. Jenner. I direct your attention to page 49 of the document entitled "Affidavits and Statements Taken in Connection With the Assassination of the President," to which we have heretofore made reference when I asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. Directing your attention to page 49—is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the Dallas city police?

Mr. Jenner. And is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the Commission that you gave on the evening of November 22?

Mr. Jenner. Will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the Dallas city police with you?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall most of that content but that surely was it—I was under a good deal of stress at the time.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I direct your attention to page 46. There appears to be a signature of Mrs. Marina Oswald on that page. You are familiar with her signature?

Mr. Jenner. Will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from Marina Oswald on the night of November 22 at the Dallas City Police Station?

Mr. Jenner. And now, having examined the statement transcribed on page 46, to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the 22d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. This is what I particularly remember.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to November 22 as having been 2 weeks prior thereto?

Mrs. Paine. My recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you—however, Mr. Howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close.

Directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen-dining area of the house, was Lee Oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer?

Mrs. Paine. I think it appears in my testimony at Washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor Marina saw me use the contents of that drawer.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I think I am finished—is there anything you wish to add?

Mr. Jenner. It is now 10 minutes after 11 and we arrived here at 7:30 this evening. Mrs. Paine, again I express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the Commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work.

Mr. Jenner. This deposition will be transcribed. We will have it here in Dallas next week when I return. If you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the United States attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. If the other transcript is ready, since I am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, I will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well.

Mrs. Paine. I would be very interested in that, thank you, and I could then sign this deposition.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; you could sign this and the deposition I took of you on Saturday of last week.

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

The testimony of Michael R. Paine was taken at 2:30 p.m., on March 17, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Wesley J. Liebeler and Norman Redlich, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. We have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of 1963, up to the time of the assassination.

We particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by Lee Harvey Oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the President, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in Texas.

I also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of Lee Oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I want to go first, Mr. Paine, to the period September of 1963, but before I do that, will you state your name for the record.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I have depended upon my wife for all the dates. She has kept a calendar.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the Oswalds?

Mr. Paine. Yes, yes, we did. Or at least she had to report that to other people and I was listening in but I have forgotten the dates.

Mr. Paine. No; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an American who had defected to Russia, and came back with a Russian wife. I think I was sick or something and for some reason I couldn't go so I didn't meet him at that time.

Mr. Paine. It would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but I think that was in February.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after you first met Oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the Commission, when was the next time that you met him?

Mr. Paine. I don't think I met him again until he joined Marina at our house in September or the beginning of October, I guess it was.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with Oswald?

Mr. Paine. Well, Ruth had invited Marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak Russian. Ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast,436 stopped on her way back to Texas, stopped in New Orleans to see them, and found that Lee was out of work again, and picked up Marina at that time and brought her back to Dallas which was the end of September, and Marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. And about a week later Marina was there for about a week before Lee called up, and I guess Lee came out.

Mr. Paine. I don't remember. I would come normally, I was not living at the house at the time, and I would normally appear on, regularly on, Fridays, and generally some other day in the week, I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, for supper.

So I would have seen him if it was a Friday but I don't happen to recall the particular occasion. I think perhaps I wasn't there because I recall Ruth telling me how glad Marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone.

Mr. Liebeler. How often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of September-October?

Mr. Paine. Well, as I say it was 2 nights a week, 2 evenings a week was a regular thing, and I would frequently come around weekends. The garage had been my shop, with my tools that I occasionally used and I would stop by on weekends, on Sunday anyways, Friday for sure, Sunday accidentally, and generally, I think, on a Tuesday or Wednesday.

Mr. Liebeler. When you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you just come——

Mr. Liebeler. And you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in Grand Prairie during this period of time?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the United States in the fall of 1963, summer-fall of 1963?

Mr. Paine. It was mostly the summer. She went about July and she spent a couple of months, the end of July, I think.

Mr. Paine. Well, I think she came by around September 24 is the date, I don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in New Orleans or the date she arrived at Irving.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after she did return to Irving, and as you said brought Marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought Oswald's personal and household effects?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. I think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, I didn't really notice what it was to take out.

Mr. Paine. I was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that I would be there. It happened the 24th was a Friday. If that was the date she got back, then I would know that I arrived the date they came back.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of September after your wife had returned for any reason?

437 Mr. Paine. Yes. As I say that was, I still had a number of things there, and the tools were there.

Mr. Liebeler. During the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage?

Mr. Paine. Yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. I had had to move that. The garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. It had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all I would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and I had had to move it several times. I knew it belonged to the Oswalds. I am polite so I don't look into a package or even I wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. But I picked up this package and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time I think I picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time I had to put it on the floor, and there was a—I was a little ashamed because I didn't know what I was putting on the floor and I was going to get it covered with sawdust but I again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. I supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason I thought it was a rustic thing.

I had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off 45°, a short stub like that. Then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then I thought of a folding tool I had in the Army, a folding shovel and I was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. That was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before I got to using the tools myself.

Mr. Paine. Yes; I supposed they were tent poles. I first thought it was tent poles and then I thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. I didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before I got on to the next thing I visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at 45° angle. I can draw you a picture of the thing as I had it. You know I wasn't thinking of a rifle. Definitely that thought never occurred to me.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you draw us a picture for it and I hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. Would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package?

Mr. Paine. Also this was—I visualized after I put the package down. I would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time I was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something—this is only one pipe in the package. That is the only thing. Then a little shovel which I am speaking is an Army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it.

Mr. Liebeler. And you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel.

Mr. Paine. I was trying to put these in the package to make something that I thought was a pipe about 30 inches long. Of course, that actual package as I visualized it—that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package.

Mr. Liebeler. You have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you mark this. I hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as Exhibit 1.

Mr. Liebeler. When you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling?

438 Mr. Paine. I didn't think. It remained in the package—nothing jelled. I think I thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough.

Mr. Paine. I kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was too symmetrical.

Mr. Paine. The shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow.

Mr. Paine. No; I am just telling you. I picked up a package which I first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then I tried, then later, maybe when I had left, I tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and I tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing.

I never—I didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. I wasn't particularly curious about it. I just had to move this object and I think I have told you about the full extent of my thinking.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's get a ruler and have you indicate. Would you indicate, Mr. Paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then I will measure what you have indicated.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that?

Mr. Liebeler. When you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it?

Mr. Paine. No; I would have said no; I didn't have that impression. Nothing crinkled, no sound.

Mr. Liebeler. Was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. What do you mean by that?

Mr. Paine. Well, I had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes.

Mr. Liebeler. What prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I had two of them. I kept that in better condition, I mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. It was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. So I thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket I had used for a bed roll on the ground.

I suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. And then I suppose I must have felt, I felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but I drew that picture439 that I drew, I didn't sense that there being another pipe I didn't put it in because I never did place another pipe around it.

Mr. Paine. I had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or I didn't know where the other pipe might be.

Mr. Liebeler. At the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package.

Mr. Paine. Well, I would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe.

Mr. Liebeler. Think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside.

Mr. Paine. No; I think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another.

Mr. Paine. It was tied quite firmly. It seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket.

Mr. Paine. Well, apparently, it was lopsided because I remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, I think that would go around the blanket.

Mr. Paine. It was smaller at this end. It was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that I carried in my right hand.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "A" on the drawing. And you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "A" than at the other end or it was not as wide?

Mr. Paine. I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, I think was folded over.

Mr. Liebeler. You say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "A"?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. Now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on No. 1?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I don't think I made this one, my solid line should be much longer. It should have gone out there. I will scratch it out.

Mr. Liebeler. Okay. The witness is scratching out the first line at end "B" and drawing in another line.

Mr. Paine. This is the widest dimension here, and I was indicating, between 7 and 8 inches.

Mr. Liebeler. Now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "C" on the drawing was approximately 7 or 8 inches. Would you mark a "B" at the end opposite from "A" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about?

Mr. Liebeler. We have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height.

Mr. Paine. My hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb.

Mr. Paine. It did not close around it. At the other end I grabbed it when I picked it up, grabbing it, I will draw my fingers here. This is the thumb.

Mr. Paine. In that fashion there. That was, say, 2 inches thick with the blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. Witness has drawn at the end marked "B" his hand indicating440 how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about 2 inches thick, including the blanket.

When you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold of the blanket at that end?

Mr. Paine. I thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it—I can't recall exactly but it was tied with strings, I don't remember where the strings were and I thought the fold in the blanket came up along here somewhere. I thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over.

Mr. Paine. But my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. I remember this measurement of the pipe because I pictured that in my mind at the time so I was thinking about that.

I was trying to fit the shovel in and I remember saying that is too asymmetric. My impression was I would have said that there would have been a fold over it. I have read since that Marina looked in the end of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. Now I didn't remember that it was something easy to look into like that. I though it was well wrapped up.

Mr. Liebeler. In the testimony you have just given you have indicated that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "B" on our drawing.

Would you indicate approximately by a line which I will ask you to mark "D" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was folded over, the "B" end, can you do that for us?

Mr. Paine. This is totally unreliable as a memory. It was only based on an impression that I thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. I put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so I was concerned not getting these things dirty. So I will draw a line here.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn.

Mr. Paine. I must have drawn my outline incorrectly. The line of this pipe here shown didn't—the package. I must draw another package then. The package must have sloped.

Mr. Paine. No; I don't remember the shape of the package. It was a blanket, I mean it was a—reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the package, then I drew the package wrong then. I didn't think of it all at one time, you know. I just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my mind into this package.

Mr. Liebeler. Your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone right to the end of the blanket?

Mr. Paine. Yes; that 30 inches of pipe would have come close to the edge of the blanket.

Mr. Paine. But here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside of it, I didn't particularly arrange it.

Mr. Liebeler. I show you a blanket which has been previously marked as Commission Exhibit 140, and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the garage?

Mr. Paine. Well, I think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me then. And I may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of the colors there.

I think I would have—I can't absolutely identify this blanket. But green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that this is not the blanket that was in the441 garage? Take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you want to with it.

Mr. Paine. I would guess that—it looks a little, in here it looks cleaner than I remember but otherwise it looks—the light isn't very good in there and I always moved it around in the dark, I mean in the night time. I had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, I can't identify this absolutely.

It is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate for, my memory of the blanket.

Mr. Paine. It is very dark there. There is a light on the saw but that shines on the table.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the colors of the blanket?

Mr. Paine. The green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. I had thought there was, it was dirtier, and I would have put blue spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the impression I had of the blanket.

Mr. Liebeler. And those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern of the blanket?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember whether the design of this blanket, Commission Exhibit 148, is approximately the same as the design on the blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember the design of the blanket I saw in the garage. I think somewhat, I didn't, if I had been the least bit curious I could have at least felt of this blanket but I was aware of personal privacy, so I don't investigate something.

Now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably I am free to think about, but I think I was aware of not looking through his belongings, the moral dictate. I know I was aware of that, I remember. I remember that feeling.

Mr. Liebeler. What about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like the blanket?

Mr. Liebeler. This blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with brown thread, is it not?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that was in the garage?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. When I unfolded the blanket, Commission Exhibit 140, a piece of string was found to be present, and I would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on this deposition.

(The string referred to was marked Michael Paine Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. Liebeler. I ask you, Mr. Paine, whether that piece of string which has442 been marked as Exhibit 2 on this deposition is similar to or different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if you remember?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember exactly. I think this is a very good candidate again. I remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which I meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string. I didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or sisal type. This is the right strength. I can't actually remember whether it was or not.

Mr. Liebeler. Well now this blanket has a pin in one end. I call your attention to that, the blanket which is Commission Exhibit 140. Did you notice that pin?

Mr. Liebeler. I am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference table, and I am going to produce Commission Exhibit 139 which is the rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963, and I will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your garage?

Mr. Paine. "A", I have drawn as "A", was not as bulky as if I had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over.

Mr. Liebeler. You are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the garage?

Mr. Liebeler. We want you just to continue to work with it and take your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other.

Mr. Paine. It is getting fairly close but I don't know what he did with this end. This way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. I also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. I will ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one you saw in your garage?

Mr. Paine. I should say this end was a little bit too big here and it is not quite big enough here.

Mr. Liebeler. When you say this end, you are referring to the end marked "B" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right?

Mr. Liebeler. Yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. But by thick enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package?

Mr. Paine. I thought of the package pretty much as all of the same thickness, calling the width from type—calling the rifle and the scope of the rifle the width.

Mr. Paine. The width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the thickness. So I thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the package and not quite so—I would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of this bulk up into here, but I don't want to do it so much that I can't grab that feel of pipe.

That feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been two pipes there.

443 Mr. Liebeler. When you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the "A" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember the package in your garage or the same width?

Mr. Paine. Well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end of the rifle.

Mr. Liebeler. And as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is what, not as thick nor not as wide?

Mr. Liebeler. Is that approximately the length of the package that you remember in your garage?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or another, I don't know what he did with this end.

Mr. Liebeler. When you estimated the length of the package before, would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in this particular package?

Mr. Paine. I don't think it was—I think the package is still all right if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was the kind of length that I would grab there.

Mr. Liebeler. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if you folded this flap over here at "A"?

Mr. Liebeler. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us what it is?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after going through the process that we have gone through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here?

Mr. Liebeler. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of that package?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you thought it weighed?

Mr. Paine. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than one tube.

Mr. Paine. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to be—there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that it was——

Mr. Paine. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn there. I444 should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.

Mr. Liebeler. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President?

Mr. Paine. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.

Mr. Paine. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard.

Mr. Paine. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and Peggs on November 24, 1963?

Mr. Paine. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the police station.

Mr. Paine. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I spent at the police station.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on that day?

Mr. Paine. There was someone at the police station, first the police took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in there.

Mr. Paine. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he had no—by leave of the police that he could do this.

Mr. Paine. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that—I don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.

Mr. Paine. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more objectionable. I mean there is more——

Mr. Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?

Mr. Liebeler. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the 22d?

Mr. Paine. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life reporters were there, and——

Mr. Paine. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at night.

Mr. Liebeler. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left?

Mr. Paine. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.

Mr. Paine. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the Bell Helicopter plant on that day?

Mr. Paine. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.

Mr. Paine. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall previously I thought about it and I said, no.

Mr. Paine. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Paine. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the next morning.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. Paine. I may have called her from the police station or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?

Mr. Paine. Not to my—the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.

Mr. Liebeler. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. Paine. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but didn't—I think this is what she said at the time but——

Mr. Paine. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview with the Dallas police?

Mr. Liebeler. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before?

Mr. Paine. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I can truthfully remember.

Mr. Liebeler. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a device——

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you have any idea what this might be?

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this around your own house or garage in Irving?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle.

Mr. Paine. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes the package a little bit shorter but that other package—I wouldn't have got the sense of pipe.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?

Mr. Liebeler. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?

Mr. Paine. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock.

Mr. Liebeler. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package?

447 Mr. Paine. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an object.

Mr. Liebeler. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in fact, a rifle in the package?

Mr. Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.

Mr. Liebeler. But there is a part of the package that has not been treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event.

Mr. Paine. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of paper, the difference is pretty slight.

Mr. Paine. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would say there is a difference.

Mr. Paine. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me this is more common.

Mr. Paine. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags made of that.

Mr. Liebeler. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.

Mr. Paine. Let's see, no, those came down from—I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been—I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.

Mr. Paine. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.

Mr. Paine. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor,448 also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.

Mr. Paine. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32½ inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.

Mr. Liebeler. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their——

Mr. Paine. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.

Mr. Liebeler. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?

Mr. Liebeler. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November 21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can remember as being in that garage.

Mr. Paine. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory.

Mr. Liebeler. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?

Mr. Liebeler. What were the circumstances under which you first heard of the assassination on that day?

Mr. Paine. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab.

Mr. Liebeler. At that time you had heard only that the President had been shot, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you hear during this first period of time when you first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near the Texas School Book Depository?

449 Mr. Paine. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that Lee worked there, and——

Mr. Paine. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on it.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination?

Mr. Paine. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to hear that building mentioned. But I thought—I didn't see how it helped the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that account alone.

Mr. Paine. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness. This seemed in character.

Mr. Paine. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with compassion, or—the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not because it seemed—not because it was not possible to his nature or his character.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination and prior to the time that you heard Oswald——

Mr. Paine. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just—we said almost nothing except——

Mr. Liebeler. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being involved?

Mr. Paine. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the theatre. But that was enough connection for me.

Mr. Paine. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of Americans.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have any450 recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, Tex.?

And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping tape with which the packages are reconstructed?

Mr. Paine. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is 3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, this is 3-inch tape.

Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I had the impression it was a 2-inch tape.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired about this question before?

Mr. Liebeler. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will ask you some more questions about it.

Mr. Liebeler. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on November 22?

Mr. Paine. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.

Mr. Paine. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. The desk—I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom drawer.

Mr. Liebeler. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably made this bag at your place?

Mr. Paine. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the garage itself.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussions about any questions which the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question?

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection the subject has never been mentioned between yourself and your wife?

Mr. Paine. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is—we may have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it.

Mr. Liebeler. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?

451 Mr. Paine. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking people, Ruth has mentioned the name.

Mr. Paine. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall what she said about them.

Mr. Liebeler. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, subsequent to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter Gregory's name.

Mr. Paine. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover moved to their house later.

Mr. Paine. I have—Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is possible that I—for practical purposes I had not met them.

Mr. Paine. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I was—it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.

Mr. Paine. Everett had—Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At one time Everett was—had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name like that. He introduced me to a—I think we met at a theater and he introduced me to some—let's say no; I don't know.

Mr. Liebeler. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he a close friend of yours?

Mr. Paine. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago probably and I have seen452 him only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also I have stopped by—there is a—he showed up once or twice at a single adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.

Mr. Paine. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also would come to these single adult parties—but I don't know——

Mr. Paine. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.

Mr. Paine. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but I may have shaken his hand.

Mr. Paine. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name—I don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten his name at this time.

Mr. Paine. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an interpreter at the police station.

Mr. Paine. She was a friend of—she would come to these madrigal groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.

Mr. Paine. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.

Mr. Paine. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I haven't met him myself, I don't believe.

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that—did you mention that he called you at your office at one time?

Mr. Paine. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native. And453 so he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me more than once on that subject.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order to contact these women?

Mr. Paine. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was living with us. I cannot—I could be clued in. I remember at the time there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out of the blue, but I can't—unless it was that I had been talking about Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to call on her and Marina?

Mr. Paine. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.

Mr. Paine. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad haircut.

Mr. Paine. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.

Mr. Liebeler. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in Irving?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?

Mr. Paine. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't—I was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.

Mr. Liebeler. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?

Mr. Paine. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane—Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.

Mr. Paine. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn't454 have used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.

Mr. Paine. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, '55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.

Mr. Paine. During the time, sometime between September and November, I bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.

Mr. Paine. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.

Mr. Paine. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way.

Mr. Liebeler. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls?

Mr. Paine. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car.

Mr. Paine. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina pocket money.

Mr. Paine. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, medicines455 and things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?

Mr. Paine. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there.

Mr. Paine. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be—you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.

Mr. Paine. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?

Mr. Paine. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?

Mr. Paine. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these periodicals?

Mr. Paine. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.

Mr. Paine. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.

Mr. Paine. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters.

456 Mr. Paine. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.

Mr. Paine. Thinking of the kind of person—what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of—it seemed somewhat childish to me.

Mr. Paine. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?

Mr. Paine. No; he didn't, and it was these various—there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.

Mr. Liebeler. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?

Mr. Paine. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.

Mr. Liebeler. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?

Mr. Paine. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?

Mr. Paine. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.

Mr. Paine. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you ever know Oswald to give Marina any money during the time that Marina lived at your house?

Mr. Liebeler. When Oswald stayed at your home in Irving on the weekends, did he eat all of his meals there?

Mr. Paine. I came only for Friday's supper and would leave and would sometimes be there on Sunday. Therefore, I couldn't be—I was not in a position to say. I think he did.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether he ever made any contribution in respect to those meals?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses of the household?

Mr. Paine. No, he didn't. I for one didn't expect him to. I didn't—I would have been surprised had he done so.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left?

Mr. Paine. He would eat breakfast there. This again was just what Ruth has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of toast. I forget what it is. I don't believe he packed a lunch.

Mr. Paine. Well, I raised the problem when he obtained the job at the Book Depository Building, I mentioned that one and a quarter, I wanted to confirm at one and a quarter, and I did somehow.

Mr. Paine. It seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live on, also I was concerned about how long the job might last, and I inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. I would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to the school year. And then to lay off after the books had been sent. I was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, but also I would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he would be a happier person.

Mr. Paine. He was pleased to get the job, and I avoided talking too directly about the possibility of his losing that job because I felt it was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps I was projecting but I do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just because I didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the job.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the FBI was responsible for his not being able to obtain a job?

Mr. Liebeler. Did he ever indicate that he thought the FBI was responsible for his losing a job?

Mr. Paine. No; he never mentioned losing a job with me. I surmised from the first time I met him, he was at the Neely Street address, and Marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and Marina was packing things for Junie. And so he and I sat on the sofa and talked.

Mr. Paine. And there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. It was the only time I observed personal animosity, and I thought to myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer.

This was just in what he said. It struck me that these things must happen. When he later lost his job, I don't know whether it was later or not but he may have lost the job already, I didn't realize it, I thought he was still employed there. These seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal.

Mr. Liebeler. You never had any indication from anyone that he felt the FBI was in any way responsible for his losing his job?

Mr. Paine. He never mentioned the FBI to me. And I never talked with anyone else who knew him except Ruth. Ruth did, of course indicate, told me of his extreme allergy to the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler. But she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused him to lose jobs?

Mr. Paine. I think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this to other people but I guess you are not just other people. She read this note which he had left on her desk, I had the impression it was a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. He had written, typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. I didn't really absorb it, I did read it, and I did read he spoke of the notorious FBI.

Ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. She hadn't been aware of his lying before. She thought his trip to Mexico, which he mentioned his trip to Mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his—also, I think——

Mr. Paine. We talked a little bit about his abuse of the FBI there. And also I think it was mentioned that, Ruth mentioned to me that, the FBI had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that Lee seemed to resent that.

Mr. Liebeler. Let's go back to this letter, when did Ruth first show you this letter, and I take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from Oswald to the Russian Embassy?

Mr. Paine. Yes; I don't think it was the Russian Embassy. I thought it was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had done. He had gone down to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico, and they had, I think this is the letter, I could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a visa—actually, I had made a mistake in the heading because I thought—it said, "Dear Sirs," but I though it said, "Dear Lisa." Ruth told me it had said, "Dear Sirs."

Mr. Paine. She must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes. I thought it was "Dear Lisa," English.

Mr. Paine. This is a confusing matter, because I was reading some other magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and I didn't really shift attention too well.

Mr. Paine. It was before, yes. No; afterwards, I would have paid close attention459 to it. Since recently, I have, Ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he must have started writing on Friday or something and she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. It had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a Sunday night. Maybe she preserved his original draft, I don't remember what happened, because I would have guessed that in order to misread the "Dear Sirs" for "Dear Lisa," I would have seen it, I would have read it correctly in her hand.

Mr. Liebeler. Recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and the dates on which you saw Oswald after he returned from New Orleans up until the time of the assassination. You said you saw him, I believe shortly after he returned from wherever he had been.

Mr. Paine. I think I probably saw him on each weekend except the one preceding the assassination. There were at least one or two, I think there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party.

Mr. Liebeler. That would have been October 18, would it not, approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his birthday was October 18?

Mr. Liebeler. And your recollection is that you saw him each weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. The weekend of November 8, 9, and 10 was a long weekend, was it not?

Mr. Paine. He was there then. I remember we didn't have a long weekend, Bell didn't. He had another day to sit in front of the TV.

Mr. Liebeler. Now, starting at November 8, 9, and 10, which was the last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter that we spoke of just before. Would it have been that weekend or after that?

Mr. Paine. Well, I suppose it would be after that. They weren't in the house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. I don't remember when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't remember whether you saw Oswald after you read the letter or not?

Mr. Paine. That is a good question, I can see some point to it now. One would surmise that, and I would think it reasonable that I would have looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and I don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite possibly I didn't see him again.

Mr. Liebeler. So we would—the conclusion would be suggested that she showed you the letter sometime after November 8 or 9, 1963?

Mr. Paine. Yes; yes, I would guess that she, as I say, I would come to a dinner when he was not there on either of the Tuesday or the Wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have a discussion with her about this subject of his having gone to Mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not?

Mr. Paine. She thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. And she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as I say I was reading some other magazine and I read the letter and went back to my magazine. How dense people can be. But anyway——

Mr. Paine. So we did not talk about it until later, then she took the letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see it. She was sort of irked that I didn't.

460 Mr. Paine. Pay more attention to this thing, yes. But she didn't want me to see it again. "If you didn't see anything in it never mind looking at it."

Mr. Liebeler. Did she tell you about any discussions she had with Marina Oswald about Oswald's having been in Mexico?

Mr. Paine. I was under the impression that Ruth didn't know he had been in Mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and I think Ruth later said, was dismayed also that Marina had been apparently, had apparently known and deceived her in this matter.

Mr. Liebeler. Well, did Ruth mention the fact that Marina had a little charm made out of Mexican peso.

Mr. Paine. Yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until the FBI came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal filings and then Ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to Marina and she never—I can't remember whether she realized then that it was a peso or Ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward.

Mr. Liebeler. And you didn't discuss that subject prior to the assassination, with your wife?

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife mention the fact that Marina Oswald had a record of Mexican music?

Mr. Liebeler. Did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her relationship with Marina Oswald during this period from the first of October up to the assassination?

Mr. Paine. It all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. When Ruth had met Marina back in the spring, I had seen that Marina Oswald—when I met them in their apartment, Oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to Marina, and I thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. And then later on in discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, and I also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently.

Mr. Paine. Yes. This all went on in Russian, and I don't know what he was saying. But I could see the object about which the statement was made, and later Ruth also told me some of the things that he had said.

But I felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since I was more eager to hear her opinions of Russia than his opinions of Russia, I was eager that she should learn English, and when—Ruth told me that Marina thought she must have to go back to the Soviet Union, and I thought out of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until she could make her own way here.

It added—Ruth also wanted to learn Russian, this was a cheap way for her to learn Russian, than to pay tutoring. And, as it happened, it was costing me less. She didn't go out shopping so much.

Mr. Paine. When Marina was there to keep her company. She would go mad with boredom, I would think. So that it—we were somewhat saddened, or I think Ruth was, I think we shared—Ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of Marina and Lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see Marina break away and make her own way. And she was a nice companion for Ruth.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any impression of how Marina and Ruth got along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of thing?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that were in your garage. Can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there461 were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them?

Mr. Paine. I don't believe so. These were normally up on the shelf above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, I had to take them down, or something like that.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you remember seeing them shortly before November 22 at any time?

TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK

The testimony of Raymond Franklin Krystinik was taken at 9 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Albert E. Jenner, Jr. and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Liebeler. Will you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Liebeler. Mr. Krystinik, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which has been established pursuant to Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963.

Last week Mr. Rankin sent you a letter and told you that I would be in touch with you, did he not?

Mr. Liebeler. Enclosed with that letter were copies of the Executive Order 11130, and a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of the Commission's procedure in taking the testimony.

Mr. Liebeler. The general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of Oswald as a result of your having met him, as we understand it, through Michael Paine prior to the assassination. We also want to question you about some of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some conversation you had with Mr. Paine at that time.

Mr. Krystinik. Bell Helicopter Research Laboratory, located at 33006 Avenue E, East, Arlington, Tex. It is a part of Bell Helicopter Co. Their address is Box 482, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Liebeler. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, Mr. Krystinik?

Mr. Krystinik. I started grade school in Caldwell, Tex. I moved to Bryan and finished grade school in the Smetana School at Bryan, Tex. And from there to Fredericksburg. At Fredericksburg I went to St. Mary's Catholic462 School and grade school, and from Fredericksburg to Grand Prairie, Tex. I went to high school in Grand Prairie, Tex. Graduated in 1950.

I went to work for Chance Vought Aircraft Aviation from high school. Went into the Navy in 1952, I believe. I don't remember exactly. I have to look it up. I was married in 1954. Got out of the Navy in August of 1954. Started to school at Arlington State College in September of 1954, and I graduated from Arlington State in June of 1956.

Went to Texas A&M, I think starting in January of 1957. I graduated from Texas A&M in June of 1960. On June 6, I went to work for Bell Helicopter. These are just approximate dates. I think they are just about right, but I am not right sure. If you need it, I can give you the exact dates.

Mr. Liebeler. This is all right. What kind of work do you do for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. Krystinik. Actually right now; no. Right now, I am working on what I think the company could classify as a flying machine. Is that adequate?

Mr. Liebeler. When did you meet him, approximately? And under what circumstances?

Mr. Krystinik. Approximately in June of 1961, if I remember correctly. I was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at the research laboratory I met Michael and worked with him then off and on up through now.

Mr. Krystinik. I went to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union on the campus of SMU. I don't remember the date, except I do remember it was the night after Mr. Stevenson's unhappy visit to Dallas when the lady, I believe, swatted him with a placard.

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; it was October of 1963. Oswald was at the meeting, and Michael introduced me to him. He had told me about the man before.

Mr. Krystinik. I mean told me that at the time there was a Russian lady living with his wife Ruth and that just exactly, I can't remember his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-Marine who had defected to Russia. I can remember that he told me that, that he defected to Russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he came back to the United States. And was, in general, a misfit and not capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't accept the responsibilities for his family, and Michael's wife had taken Marina to help her for the time being.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, is that all Michael Paine told you about Oswald?

Mr. Krystinik. At that particular time we discussed him—during that period of time Michael was eating supper with us on an average of once a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little different. Michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. He commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. As long as he had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he apparently took off. I can remember him telling463 me that about him, and when I met him at Selecman Hall, I didn't feel overly happy to meet the man, or that I had made an acquaintance of value.

They were there before my wife and I came. As we walked in and sat down, Oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be the man. Prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him.

Michael, I am referring to—Michael introduced me. I need to keep my chain more correct, straight. Michael introduced me to Lee Oswald. As the meeting started, about that time—before the meeting first there was a little bit of talk. I don't remember what the chairman of the meeting said prior to the film starting.

They showed a film about a Senator or Congressman or legislator, some form of public servant who was running for reelection in Washington State, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating that his wife had connections with the Communist Party, and apparently she had had connections during her college days but had severed relations with the party and had given evidence to the FBI and an investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no connection with the party at the time. And they showed in a film how the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen that was of value to the United States. That was the essence of the film.

After the film there was discussion about the Civil Liberties and about the film in general and about the movement in the South and the integration movement and the talk concerning General Walker. The first notice I made of Oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about General Walker in reference to him not only being anti-Catholic but anti-Semitic in regard to his comments about the Pope. Then he made further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the General Walker meeting here in Dallas. That was my first real notice of him.

Mr. Liebeler. Oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he had been to a meeting 2 days prior at which General Walker was present?

Mr. Liebeler. That meeting would have been just the night before Mr. Stevenson came to Dallas?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes, sir; I think, or it could have been the same night. I don't remember the exact date.

Mr. Krystinik. That was it. That was his comment about Walker, and it struck me at the time. I mean my ears perked up when he said Walker was anti-Catholic in reference to his comments about the Pope. I can quote that. That is exact. I am Catholic and I wanted to hear what he said. He didn't say what General Walker had said.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he indicate any hostility toward General Walker either by words or by his deeds?

Mr. Krystinik. At the time it seemed like Michael had commented to me prior that the man was a Marxist, and I have never met anyone before that I had known to be a Communist or a Marxist or Leninist or Red, and I was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he thought and what he felt. It seemed to me, in watching and listening to him, that rather than being violently against General Walker, he was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like General Walker. He didn't say General Walker is a bad guy. He just made comments that General Walker is anti-Semitic and anti-Catholic, and he was spreading a little seed of thought. That was the way it impressed me.

Mr. Liebeler. You didn't get the feeling that Oswald had any particular violent thoughts towards General Walker?

Mr. Krystinik. I didn't at this time. I had no idea he was violent until I heard on the radio he had shot the President.

Mr. Krystinik. There were other people that discussed it, and then they discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when Mr. Stevenson was in Dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists would act like464 that. But any exact comment about General Walker I really don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. Did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which Stevenson had had his difficulty?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; he didn't tell me that. He told me, I think just me he had mentioned, if I remember exactly, he had mentioned to Michael and said, "I was there," in reference to the meeting of the General Walker group.

Mr. Liebeler. Are the remarks that you have told us about, the only remarks that Oswald made to the entire group that evening?

Mr. Krystinik. The only ones I can remember and swear that I know was the one in reference to General Walker not only being anti-Semitic but anti-Catholic and in regard to his comment about the Pope.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald comment on the John Birch Society as well as General Walker?

Mr. Krystinik. I know there was mention about him in the group. The group commented on the John Birch Society, and I don't remember exactly whether Oswald commented on them, too. I would like to be of help to you, but I don't remember.

Mr. Liebeler. How did Oswald impress you when he stepped up and addressed the group? Did he impress you as being articulate, intelligent, or was he not that way?

Mr. Krystinik. At that particular time he just made the one statement. After the meeting, I talked to him for about 15 minutes primarily about economics.

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. Oswald was the fellow that impressed me, and I was paying attention to what he was saying, and I am afraid that Mr. Helligas didn't make an impression on me. I don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the conversation at different times. I am afraid most of my attention was directed to Oswald. The hair was up on the back of my neck. I was irritated by the man a little. Not real bad, but he bothered me some.

Mr. Krystinik. Well, the attitude that I felt was that he was talking down to me. I felt like he was. That he was better than I was, to a certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the argument and was on top all the time. I felt that a couple of different spots in the argument I had him practically beaten and he wouldn't accept my argument. He turned his back and would go down a different avenue.

Mr. Liebeler. Reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the discussion that you and Oswald had. Tell us as best you can recall what he said and what you said and what the argument was about.

Mr. Krystinik. Well, after the meeting was over we went back to the back where they had coffee. I believe they had doughnuts, I am not sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and I am sure there was coffee. I wasn't interested in the coffee.

Michael, my wife, and Oswald, and I, walked to the back of the room together. I approached Oswald and commented to him that Michael had told me about his political background a little bit, and I understood that he had been to Russia. I asked him what he felt communism had to offer that was better than he could find in the United States. He kind of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then.

I forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we talked465 for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, I told him I had met his wife at the Paine's over in Irving and that he had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. And he commented, "They are nice." And that was to let it go at that.

I forget, or I do forget now about exactly what the next few comments were. We did start talking about communism versus capitalism. He said that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. I asked him just what he meant by exploiting. He said he takes a man's labors and makes a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. I said that wasn't true. I considered myself to be a capitalist, or at least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. At the present time I had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and I was real glad to work for him for the salary I got.

He commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to know if I thought that was fair or not?

And I said that I was happy. I am satisfied with what I have, and I feel it is fair, and I used an analogy that in turn I am an employer. I have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which I pay them $3 an hour and they are tickled to get the $3 an hour. They are real glad to get it. And that I make $4 an hour off of their efforts. My profit is $1 an hour, and that I bought the machinery, I bought the material. I have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $1 an hour from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the work, and my wage is comparable to my investment.

He said, you are exploiting labor. You are not doing any work. And he commented then, well, that is all right for you. In your society it is not a crime to exploit the worker. He didn't say, "to exploit the worker." He said, "In your society it is not a crime." He was referring to exploitation of the worker, supposedly.

Mr. Krystinik. That is really about all I remember from the conversation itself. Oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. I asked him what about the freedom in Russia. And he said, "Well, they don't have as much actual freedom." I have forgotten what he said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. We were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the United States versus Russia. He said the United States by far has more civil liberties.

I said, what do you think about the movement in the South in reference to Mr. Kennedy? And he said he thinks that Kennedy is doing a real fine job, a real good job, I have forgotten.

Mr. Krystinik. Yes, sir. That was the only comment that was made in reference to President Kennedy. I forget whether that was the only time he expressed any emotion, and I have forgotten the exact words, he is doing a real fine job, or very fine job. I can't remember exactly what he said.

He impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with Michael later and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, Michael brought it to my attention, and after I think about it I agree with Michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary words, but not necessarily correctly used. This was a later impression, but the immediate argument, I was interested in what he was saying rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying it.

Mr. Liebeler. You were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis that Oswald placed on his remark that President Kennedy was doing a good job as far as civil rights were concerned?

Mr. Krystinik. At the immediate time I wasn't particularly impressed. After the President was murdered, I felt that there was at least an emphasis of note, if not connected. I do remember him saying, him placing emphasis on the way he said it.

Mr. Liebeler. And the impression you received of his attitude toward President Kennedy was one of approval and one of favor?

466 Mr. Krystinik. I would say yes. I don't know about President Kennedy in general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the impression I had was that he was favorably impressed by Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald express his attitude toward any other government official, during the course of his conversation with you?

Mr. Krystinik. I can't really remember. I have heard Michael Paine comment that Oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying around the house, and that his wife, Ruth, had found this letter. It was in the typewriter. I can't remember exactly the details, but that he had referred to the notorious FBI. Apparently he didn't care for the FBI.

Mr. Liebeler. Prior to the time of the assassination, however, you had no feeling that Oswald had any particular hostility toward any government official or toward the government in general? Would that be a fair statement?

Mr. Krystinik. I can't really say because I don't know the exact time sequence. After a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down.

Michael and I discussed the man at length after the assassination, and we talked about him a whole lot, so I don't really know whether it was before or after, but I now feel that he was very definitely against all enforcement people in general, and I don't know exactly when this impression came to me. But if I didn't already have this impression beforehand, I certainly had it afterwards.

I do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this might possibly extend to law enforcement officials.

Mr. Liebeler. Do you feel that Oswald was, in general resentful of authority? There was resentment of his employers?

Mr. Krystinik. According to Michael, talking to him, we didn't talk about specifics, it was strictly generalities. It was 15 minutes that I talked to him, or 15 minutes or so that I talked to him.

Mr. Liebeler. Is this meeting that you had with Oswald in the ACLU, the only meeting you ever had with Oswald?

Mr. Krystinik. That was the only time I saw him up until I saw him on television.

Mr. Liebeler. And your impressions are based upon your conversation with him during that time at the ACLU meeting?

Mr. Krystinik. Based on that and what Michael and I have discussed in reference to him.

Mr. Liebeler. In the course of the conversation with Oswald at the ACLU meeting, did he tell you that he was a Marxist?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes. It seems to me that I commented to him that, "You are a Communist and I am a Capitalist," and I can't remember exactly what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "I am a Marxist." When I addressed him as a Communist, he said, "I am a Marxist."

Mr. Liebeler. He corrected you then when you said he was a Communist and indicated he was not a Communist?

Mr. Krystinik. Oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that I, at the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the worker, I came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in Russia they don't exploit, that the State doesn't exploit the worker, and he stated that it is worse than here. He did say that.

Mr. Liebeler. That the exploitation of the worker was worse in Russia than it is in the United States?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you know at the time you talked to Oswald that he had been active in the Fair Play for Cuba?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; I never heard of the organization until I read about it in the Dallas Morning News in reference to Oswald.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald tell you he was a member of any Marxist or Communist group?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a member of any group, Marxist or Communist group?

Mr. Krystinik. In reference to what Michael had told me that he defected to Russia and that he claimed himself as being a Marxist, now I am afraid that in my mind I felt he was a Communist or a Red, and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to offer me with which to place trust in him, I didn't trust him and kind of considered him, I guess I looked at him really like someone at a dog that might bite. I disliked the man. I disliked him without him giving me personally an actual reason. I disliked him before I met him on the basis of conversation with Michael. I disliked him when I met him in that I felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat better than I was. He acted as he felt he had complete command of the conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be said, and I like to talk too.

We talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was more of an argument.

Mr. Liebeler. You got no impression at any time during the course of your meeting with Oswald that he was an actual member of any Communist or Marxist group?

Mr. Krystinik. I felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "I am a Marxist." To me, that categorized him. But as to any specific organization, I had no impression that he belonged to any specific group.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Oswald display any anger to you during the course of your conversation with him?

Mr. Liebeler. Have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, the entire conversation that occurred between you and Oswald on that occasion?

Mr. Krystinik. Only to the best of my recollection. I am sure that we talked more.

Mr. Krystinik. He didn't. Michael had told me previously that he had been in the Marines.

Mr. Liebeler. Had Michael told you that Oswald received an undesirable discharge from the Marine Corps?

Mr. Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Oswald about his impressions while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. Krystinik. I did ask him to tell me about Russia, but then the conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism versus communism. He commented that the work hours were long and the pay wasn't particularly good. That was about the main thing. It was just that long in reference to the Soviet Union and we were back to capitalism. He didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it.

Mr. Liebeler. His remarks about the pay and working conditions in the Soviet Union were a general remark?

468 Mr. Liebeler. He didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of job he had?

Mr. Krystinik. Well, he didn't. Michael, I believe, told me afterwards, if I remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic firm or electrical industry.

Mr. Liebeler. But Oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the Soviet Union other than you have already told us?

Mr. Krystinik. As we were going out, I commented to Michael that we were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. And he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "The money might corrupt me." I can remember that as a quote.

Mr. Liebeler. Other than that, however, Oswald did not indicate any particular sense of humor to you?

Mr. Krystinik. No humor. He indicated no violence. He impressed me as being cold. You can talk to some people and say they are warm and sincere. He impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. He had fixed notions in his head, and I had the impression he had his mind made up regardless of how good an argument you presented. His mind was made up that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you subsequently discuss with Michael Paine your argument with Oswald?

Mr. Krystinik. Michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. There was no point in him sticking around. He knew Oswald had a closed mind.

He didn't say, "closed mind." Michael is a rather unusual type of person. He is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has sensitive emotions and feels—you have talked with him. I guess you have the same impression.

Mr. Liebeler. Is that all that you and Michael said about your (conversation) discussion with Oswald?

Mr. Krystinik. With reference to this conversation, I related to him just about what Oswald had said to me. It wasn't exactly in detail. I didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as I have talked to you. He said that he knew how it was going to go and there wasn't any point in his staying around. He knew how Oswald would react.

Mr. Krystinik. Only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Michael indicate to you that Oswald received any periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political questions of the time that you discussed?

Mr. Krystinik. Prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. I am trying to—I forget now exactly—I have read the newspapers and I heard so darn much469 about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to strain out exactly who said what. I know that he had gotten Communist literature, and I can't remember whether it was from Michael or from the news media that I heard this.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you recall any other discussions between Michael Paine and yourself, concerning Lee Oswald that occurred prior to the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. The occasion that you met Oswald at the ACLU meeting was the only time at which you ever met Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. You mentioned that you had met Marina Oswald and child prior to that time.

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; Michael had bought an old blue—he had a French Citroen automobile. At any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. And he was taking the Oldsmobile to Irving and I followed him in my car and took him back to the research laboratory and picked up his Citroen. At any rate, when I drove the car in, he went into the house and brought Ruth out and Marina. And all I remember is one little girl. I didn't see the baby. The little girl came out with her mother and Ruth introduced me to Marina. She impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. I spoke as slowly and as distinctly as I could to her in English, Texan to be exact, and she turned to Marina—Marina turned to Ruth and spoke to her in Russian, and I asked Ruth if I was talking too fast, and Marina said I am talking too Texan.

At any rate, that was about it. I told her that she had a beautiful little girl and hoped that she would like the United States. And she commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. That I can remember for sure. That impressed me, because it seems that where there is a possibility of a Russian saying something nice, it is nice to have a compliment. At least I felt complimented.

Mr. Krystinik. I can't remember whether it was the words, but that was the way I took it to be. It was my thinking, yes.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Marina understand the remarks that you had made to her in English?

Mr. Krystinik. Apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to Ruth for exact interpretation, and Ruth told me that I wasn't talking too fast, just too Texan. That was Marina's comment.

At first I was talking just to Marina back and forth, and she said just a few words, and I asked her how old the child was, and if I remember exactly, 2 or 3. I have forgotten. But one- or two-word answers, and I had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. When Ruth entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and totally upon Ruth. I talked to her only about 5 minutes in all. I talked with her while Ruth was looking at the car with Michael. I mean I talked to her rather than with her.

Mr. Liebeler. This was after Marina had given birth to the second child. Is that correct?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. I hadn't met him at that time.

Mr. Liebeler. Have you ever met Lyman Paine? That would be Michael's father. Did you ever discuss Lyman Paine with Michael?

Mr. Krystinik. Only once. We talked about him a couple of times, but one time Michael, just prior to Michael buying the land in Irving for his future shop.

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; I can't remember, but it was about a week prior to his buying the land.

Mr. Krystinik. I can fix the time. He had commented that he had been invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend.

470 I know that the previous time Michael had been saving his money to buy this land, and I feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, and he flew out on a Friday evening, if I remember correctly, and flew back to Dallas early Monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at work that day. We talked and I asked him if he had a nice time visiting with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his father had a very nice party. And it seemed this was somewhat of an international party. He talked about this Negress that he had met who was extremely interesting. Her husband had written a book on labor, and he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her.

Mr. Liebeler. This conversation occurred at a party that Lyman Paine had given in Los Angeles is that correct?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; that's right. He didn't tell me in detail why he was particularly interested. He said she was a very interesting person, and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other people. He said that there was a man from West or East Germany, and I remember he said that there were some Chinese people there, and I don't remember whether they were or were not from the Communist bloc. I don't remember that. But he commented on several other people that were, in my book, I would say they were each one an extremist of some form or other at the time—at the time that he was telling me about them. They were at least very different than you would meet on the street. That doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. That was the impression I had. He didn't say they were Communist or bad people or anything like that. They were just very, very different.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Michael indicate to you that his father had been active in the affairs of the Communist Party?

Mr. Krystinik. No; he didn't. I asked him what his father did, and he said he was an architect, and that was the comment. It seemed there was some mention made about a Communist or a fellow that had communistic interests being at the party, and I asked him what kind of people does your father associate with. He said he didn't know really what his father does. That was his comment. He didn't know what his father does, that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. That was Michael's comment.

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; not really. I talked to him about it very little, and I do know that just shortly after he came back from Los Angeles, Michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $3,000, and I had the impression that prior to his going to Los Angeles he didn't have the money.

I had that impression because he commented that there was time for him to pay or give—we were talking about church donations during the coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was time to pay his pledge dues at the Unitarian Church and he didn't have the money in the bank, and 3 or so weeks later he had $3,000, for a plot of land, so I am assuming, I am not a detective, that he had gotten the money from his father or from Art Young, who is his stepfather. One of those two persons, he had gotten the money. He had, if I remember correctly, Art Young was in Texas, so one of these two places he had gotten the money. Those are the impressions I had, that he had gotten it from his father.

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; I didn't. I want to make it clear that I don't know. These are impressions that I had.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Michael tell you that he went to Los Angeles for the purpose of visiting his father?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; he didn't state it in that way. He said that his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this was the discussion prior to his leaving.

Mr. Liebeler. He was not sent to the west coast on business for Bell Helicopter?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; he has been sent to Pennsylvania on Bell Helicopter business. I am aware of that.

471 Mr. Liebeler. But so far as you know, he was not sent to Los Angeles on Bell Helicopter business?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; so far as I feel that if he had, that he would have told me.

Mr. Krystinik. I would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by my telling you things, I feel that I am still a friend of his. I think that he is—I feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all honesty, I don't feel that what I tell you can in any way hurt him, and if it would hurt him, he has been going—he has been doing something he shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, because that is just the way I feel. I don't feel like I am squealing on him.

Mr. Liebeler. Did Michael tell you that his father had called him shortly after the assassination?

Mr. Liebeler. As far as you know, the last contact Michael had with his father is when he went to Los Angeles shortly prior to the time he bought this tract in Irving?

Mr. Liebeler. Where were you when you learned that fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. Krystinik. At the research laboratory. We were listening to the radio. We had listened to the President's speech from the Texas Hotel parking lot in Fort Worth. I think that almost every one at the laboratory honestly really liked President Kennedy and was all for him. We were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. I believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we were listening to the radio at the time. When the first report came in, they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown Dallas, and switched to the Market Hall, and the commentator was talking from the Market Hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was shots fired at the President. And he didn't say he had been hit.

Then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, this is official that the President of the United States has been fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. And in a little while it came through he had been hit and taken to Parkland Hospital, and the reports were that he and Governor Connally were both hit and both considered to be in serious condition. And it came through that they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. And finally, I think it was about an hour later the report came through the President had expired. And Michael exhibited real outward emotion. He had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. And I don't feel that Michael is the type that could make crocodile tears in seriousness.

Mr. Liebeler. Was Michael with you when you first heard of the fact that the President had been fired at?

Mr. Krystinik. No, sir; I didn't. I don't think I did. I do eat with him quite often off and on. Most of the time I stay at the lab and drink my can of Metrecal.

Mr. Liebeler. But also to the best of your recollection, you were both in the lab?

Mr. Krystinik. We were both in the office portion of the lab. Michael has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us.

Mr. Liebeler. You were there at that time when you first heard that the President had been fired at?

Mr. Krystinik. And immediately when the first report came in that the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.

Mr. Krystinik. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.

Mr. Liebeler. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned from lunch?

Mr. Krystinik. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had died.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the assassination?

Mr. Krystinik. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that.

And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to the Texas School Book Depository.

I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do such an act.

Mr. Liebeler. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston near the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, "That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have been him." But it wasn't but just a little bit——

Mr. Liebeler. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between you and Michael Paine, is that correct?

Mr. Liebeler. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Krystinik. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works."

And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through that473 the Oswald fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun."

And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten.

We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything personal, and we discussed it.

That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.

Mr. Liebeler. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.

Mr. Krystinik. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right now.

Mr. Krystinik. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."

Mr. Liebeler. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?

Mr. Liebeler. Now you said that you were the first one to mention Oswald's name?

Mr. Liebeler. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Liebeler. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in connection with the assassination?

Mr. Krystinik. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing of oppression and worry at that particular time.

It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, his was the name that came to my mind, possibly.

I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they come to mind.

Mr. Liebeler. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?

Mr. Liebeler. What did you and Michael say to each other just very shortly after the word had come through?

Mr. Krystinik. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."

474 Mr. Liebeler. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. Krystinik. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if I remember correctly, and the shot had been—it had been reported that—can we go back just a little bit?

Mr. Krystinik. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald works.

Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.

Mr. Krystinik. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Liebeler. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the description given fitted Oswald?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald was—works in the School Book Depository.

They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.

Mr. Liebeler. The description of this individual was given out after Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?

Mr. Krystinik. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.

Mr. Krystinik. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him."

And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, that was a pretty bad day—when I first heard about it having been Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would have been what he meant.

Mr. Liebeler. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael didn't want to advise the FBI?

Mr. Krystinik. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about—Michael is a little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, the least little bit.

I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can.

At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did he—if he couldn't read475 signs, that that was an—that was a United States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the future.

It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I got his license number of his car, also.

The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs said on the fence.

If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check and faithfully check it out.

I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had him arrested on the spot.

Mr. Liebeler. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude that you explained in the situation you have just described?

Mr. Krystinik. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, "Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, "No, I take a man at his word."

He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.

Mr. Krystinik. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.

At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for himself—seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist.

Mr. Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you think the Commission should know about in connection with the assassination?

In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is on the surface.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't think he had anything to do with the events leading up to the assassination?

Mr. Krystinik. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have avoided the President being shot.

He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out that476 the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.

Mr. Liebeler. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of approximately 27 inches.

Mr. Krystinik. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches different from that.

Mr. Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the length of about 27 inches?

Mr. Liebeler. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?

Mr. Krystinik. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in reference to the weapon.

Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't believe in violence at all.

Mr. Liebeler. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at this point?

Mr. Krystinik. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is important.

Mr. Krystinik. We have been to her house once. We have been to the Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel that I know Michael fairly well.

Mr. Liebeler. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any judgment about her character?

Mr. Krystinik. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person.

I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to love him as much as I love my brother.

Mr. Liebeler. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the assassination, do you?

Mr. Krystinik. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin—I won't say harbor—I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.

Mr. Liebeler. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. Thank you, Mr. Krystinik.

Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the transcript, is that so?

Transcriber's Notes

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.

Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none changed.

"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on page 447.

Page 1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.

Page 16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.

Page 23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; changed here.

Page 25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not changed.

Page 28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.

Page 43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; changed here.

Page 52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be "apolitical".

Page 56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".

Page 61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as "kidnaped"; changed here.

Page 63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.

Page 64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was misprinted as "huband"; changed here.

Page 72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not changed.

Page 74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed here.

Page 85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.

Page 89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed here.

Page 103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.

Page 103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.

Page 104: One or more lines after "Mr. Mamantov. Or way of government." appear to be missing from the Testimony.

Page 111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; changed here.

Page 116 and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as "Manantov"; all have been changed here.

Page 131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".

Page 148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as "expresed"; changed here.

Page 162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.

Page 179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; changed here.

Page 195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".

Page 215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and capitalized that way.

Page 248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.

Page 269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.

Page 291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.

Page 320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.

Page 311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".

Page 320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you know".

Page 331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg.

Page 363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in that position.

Page 420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.

Page 433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.

Page 438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed here.

Page 440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".

Page 441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".

Page 447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".

Page 449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".

Page 458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Preface

Contents

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY

TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK

TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR

TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS

TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK

Transcriber's Notes

	Page
Preface	v
Testimony of—
Paul M. Raigorodsky	1
Mrs. Thomas M. Ray (Natalie)	27
Thomas M. Ray	38
Samuel B. Ballen	45
Lydia Dymitruk	60
Gary E. Taylor	73
Ilya A. Mamantov	102
Dorothy Gravitis	131
Paul Roderick Gregory	141
Helen Leslie	160
George S. De Mohrenschildt	166
Jeanne De Mohrenschildt	285
Ruth Hyde Paine	331, 426
John Joe Howlett	425
Michael R. Paine	434
Raymond Franklin Krystinik	461

	Page
Commission Exhibit No. 364	93
De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No.:
1	277
2	278
3	279
4	279
5	279
6	279
7	279
8	279
9	279
10	279
11	279
12	282
13	282
14	282
15	282
16	26
Paine (Michael) Exhibit No.:
1	437
2	441
Paine (Ruth) Exhibit No.:
270	408
271	408
272	411
273	411
274	411
275	424
276	424
277	426
277-A	429
277-B	430
278	432
278-A	432
461	347
469	390
Raigorodsky Exhibit No.:
9	25
10	25
10-A	25
10-B	25
11	26
11-A	26
14	26
14-A	26

Name	Place found	Microfilm No.
Application, the Militant	Irving	380
Application slip for FPCC	Beckley	416
Application slips for FPCC (187)	Irving	96
Booklet, "The Coming American Revolution," by James Cannon.	Irving	330
Booklet, "Continental Congress of Solidarity with Cuba, Brazil," by FPCC.	Irving	319
Booklet, "Cuban Counter Revolutionaries to the U.S.," published by FPCC.	Irving	307
Booklet, Dobbs Weiss Campaign Committee, 116 University Pl., N.Y.C., entitled "Apamphlar."420	Irving	308
Booklet, "Fidel Castro Denounces Bureaucracy and Sectarianism."	Irving	304
Book, list of FPCC, N.Y.C.	Irving	329
Book, foreign language, 2 pages	Irving	201
Book, foreign language, 2 pages	Irving	202
Booklet, "Ideology and Revolution," by Jean Paul Sarte	Irving	313
Booklet, list of Russian and Communist literatures publications.	Irving	309
Booklet, "The McCarran Act and the Right to Travel"	Irving	311
Booklet, "The Nation," dated Jan. 23, 1960	Irving	320
Booklet, "The Pact of Madrid," by the committed of Democratic Spain.	Irving	310
Book, Russian	Irving	84
Books, Russian (18)	Irving	78–83
Book, Russian Language No. 732648	Irving	112
Booklet, "Socialist Workers Party," by Josepth Hanson	Irving	305
144
Book, "Sofia," dated 1962	Irving	324
Booklet, "Speech at the UN by Fidel Castro"	Irving	318
Book, "The Spy Who Loved Me," by Ian Fleming	Beckley	410
Book, "Live and Let Die," by Ian Fleming	Beckley	410
Book, "A Study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical," by Keiber and Nelson.	Beckley	409
Book, "A study of U.S.S.R. and Communism Historical"	Beckley	409
Circulars, FPCC, Bill Jones Printing Co., New Orleans.	Beckley	415
Handbill, FPCC, Lee H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., New Orleans.	Irving	335
Handbill, FPCC, L. H. Oswald, 4907 Magazine St., New Orleans, La.	Beckley	414
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (178), Join the FPCC	Irving	97
Handbills, "Hands Off Cuba" (180), Join the FPCC, New Orleans Branch.	Irving	300
Letter, from James J. Forney on letterhead of Gus Hall, Benjamin J. Davis, defense comittee, N.Y.C., Dec 13, 1962.	Beckley	405
Letter, from Farrell Dobbs, National Secretary of Socialist Workers Party to Lee Oswald, Nov. 5, 1962.	Beckley	401
Letter, signed "Gene," to "Dear Lee," from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead, Aug. 22, 1963.	Beckley	412
Letter, from Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., to Lee and Marie.	Beckley	430
Letter, from Peter P. Gregory to Oswald, re: Ability to translate.	Beckley	413
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.	Beckley	400
Letter, from Arnold Johnson, director, Information and Lecture Bureau CP, July 31, 1963, P.O. Box 30061, New Orleans, to Oswald.	Beckley	406
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director of FPCC, N.Y., to Oswald, May 22, 1963.	Beckley	403
Letter, from V. T. Lee, national director, FPCC, N.Y.C., to Oswald, 4907 Magazine, New Orleans.	Beckley	407
145
Letter, from Paul Piazza to Oswald, on Jesuit House of Studies, Mobile, Ala., letterhead.421	Beckley	429
Letter, from Pioneer Publishers, April 26, 1963	Irving	363
Letter, from Joseph Tack, Socialist Worker Party, to Oswald.	Beckley	445
Letter, from Johnny Tackett, on Fort Worth Press letterhead, to Oswald.	Beckley	438
Letter, from Louis Weinstock, general manager of the Worker, Dec. 19, 1962, to Oswald.	Beckley	404
Magazine, "Friends Word News"	Irving	87
Magazine, "The Militant"	Irving	85
Magazine, "The New Republic," reprint from Sept. 12, 1963.	Irving	322
Magazine, cover, group of men dressed in black standing behind what appears to be a master of ceremonies dressed in white.	Irving	198
Magazine, wrapper, addressed to Lee Oswald, Minsk, Russia.	Irving	191
Newspaper, "The Worker"	Irving	86
Newspaper, clipping, re: the President	Irving	120
Newspaper, clipping, New Orleans paper.	Irving	98
Newspaper, clipping, Fort Worth Press, showing photo of Iranian native, Mrs. John R. Hall.	Irving	270
Newspaper, clipping (Oswald defection and cartoon regarding defectors).	Beckley	417
Newspaper, clipping (Times Picayune, New Orleans, re: Oswald's fine for disturbing peace. Sent from room 329, 799 Broadway, N.Y.C.	Beckley	413
Newspapers (7), Russian language	Irving	381
Newspaper, subscription forms (3), The Worker, with return envelopes to publishers News Press.	Irving	380
146
Pamphlet, "The End of the Comintern," by James P. Cannon.	Irving	317
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," Curliss Lamont	Irving	303
Pamphlets, "The Crime Against Cuba," by Curliss Lamont	Irving	99
Pamphlet, "The Revolution Must Be a School of Unfettered Thought," by Fidel Castro.	Irving	312
Pamphlet, "The Road to Socialism," by Blas Rocan	Irving	315
Pamphlet, Russian, bearing No. 500 on cover	Irving	325
Pamphlets, Russian	Irving	89–94
Pamphlets, No. 13, Russian document	Irving	192
Pamphlet, New York School for Marxist study, fall term, 1963.	Beckley	411
Pamphlet, the weekly people entitled "Automation, a Job Killer."	Irving	321
Photos, "Visit to U.S.S.R."(4)	Irving	366
Photos, Fidel Castro (6)	Irving	366
Photo, Fidel Castro	Irving	368
Photo, female Russian workers in radio factory	Irving	332
Photo, Russian workers	Irving	331
147

INVESTIGATION OF THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Preface

Contents

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Hearings Before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF PAUL M. RAIGORODSKY

TESTIMONY OF MRS. THOMAS M. RAY (NATALIE)

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS M. RAY

TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL B. BALLEN

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA DYMITRUK

TESTIMONY OF GARY E. TAYLOR

TESTIMONY OF ILYA A. MAMANTOV

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DOROTHY GRAVITIS

TESTIMONY OF PAUL RODERICK GREGORY

TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN LESLIE

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT

TESTIMONY OF JEANNE DE MOHRENSCHILDT RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF AGENT JOHN JOE HOWLETT

TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL R. PAINE

TESTIMONY OF RAYMOND FRANKLIN KRYSTINIK

Transcriber's Notes

INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY