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Title: Warren Commission (13 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIII (of 15)

Author: Warren Commission

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Language: English

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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President’s Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
XIII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission’s Report.

v

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIII: L. C. Graves, James Robert Leavelle, L. D. Montgomery, Thomas Donald McMillon, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in the arrest and questioning of Jack L. Ruby; Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf, Frances Cason, Michael Hardin, and C. E. Hulse, who testified concerning the time at which Lee Harvey Oswald was shot; Ira Jefferson Beers, Jr., Robert Leonard Hankal, Robert S. Huffaker, Jr., George R. Phenix, and Jim Turner, news media personnel who observed the shooting of Oswald; Harold R. Fuqua, Edward Kelly, Louis McKinzie, Edward E. Pierce, Alfreadia Riggs, and John Olridge Servance, janitorial employees of the Dallas Municipal Building who gave testimony relating to the manner in which Ruby may have entered the building; A. M. Eberhardt, Sidney Evans, Jr., Bruce Ray Carlin, Karen Bennett Carlin, Doyle E. Lane, Elnora Pitts, Hal Priddy, Jr., Huey Reeves, Warren E. Richey, Malcolm R. Slaughter, Vernon S. Smart, John Allison Smith, Jesse M. Strong, and Ira N. Walker, Jr., all of whom saw Ruby for brief times during the period November 22–24, 1963, prior to the shooting of Oswald; John L. Daniels and Theodore Jackson, attendants at parking lots near the point at which Ruby’s car was parked on November 24, 1963; and Andrew Armstrong, Jr., Bertha Cheek, and Curtis La Verne Crafard, who were acquainted with Ruby prior to November 22, 1963.

vii

viii

1

The testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has been given authority under a congressional resolution to investigate the facts surrounding the death of President Kennedy and the killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and, other related events.

We are interested particularly, in calling you, in the events that surrounded the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We are also interested in everything that you may know and so, you can consider relevant any question having to do with the complete scope of the investigation. Now, you have the right to receive, by mail, the notice 3 days in advance before the taking your testimony, and I want to ask you at this time whether you waive that notice?

Mr. Graves. Yes; I waive that notice.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you also have a right to be present here with an attorney, and, of course, you are not represented by counsel. If you would like the opportunity to get an attorney, we’ll afford you that chance.

Mr. Graves. No; I don’t think that is necessary.

Mr. Griffin. Would you state for the record your name?

Mr. Graves. My name is L. C. Graves [spelling] G-r-a-v-e-s.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live, Mr. Graves?

Mr. Graves. I live at 7811 Maxwell Avenue, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. And where are you employed?

Mr. Graves. I am employed with the Dallas Police Department, as a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Graves. 14 years, the 31st day of October last.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you born?

Mr. Graves. October 8, 1918, at Camp County.

Mr. Griffin. Texas?

Mr. Graves. Texas.

Mr. Griffin. Have you been interviewed by me previous to this deposition which we are now taking?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Would you state for the record when it was that you and I talked?

Mr. Graves. Oh, approximately 30 minutes ago.

Mr. Griffin. We have been talking almost continuously since that?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right, now, I will indicate for the record that we have been discussing the—your experiences from the time President Kennedy was shot until you arrived for work on Sunday morning, November 24, and I believe you2 told me while I was interviewing you that on Sunday morning you drove to work, and that you parked your car somewhere along the side of the police department building, and it is your recollection that you walked from the Commerce Street side through the basement hall that leads to the records room?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I asked you in the interview whether you remember just—remembered just as you walked down from the Commerce Street—down the steps to the door which leads into the building, whether as you got inside the building you noticed the placement of TV cables in relationship to the engineroom, or that door that goes back down into the subbasement. Do you have any recollection of how the TV cables were spread out there?

Mr. Graves. Vaguely. I think the cables did go through that door. I couldn’t be sure.

Mr. Griffin. Which door are you talking about?

Mr. Graves. Through the engineroom door.

Mr. Griffin. When you got inside the building, where did you go?

Mr. Graves. I went to the homicide and robbery bureau on the third floor, room 317.

Mr. Griffin. When you got up into the hallway on the third floor, can you describe the condition of the hallway?

Mr. Graves. Well, of course, it was cluttered up with camera equipment and cables and newspeople, cameramen.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember when you arrived there on the third floor, whether the TV cameras were manned?

Mr. Graves. Reasonably sure they were. There were men standing around with earphones on and the light.

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you recall about what time it was that you got up there to the third floor?

Mr. Graves. Approximately 8 o’clock, I think or——

Mr. Griffin. That is in the morning?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got to the homicide bureau?

Mr. Graves. Well, I went in, of course, and started answering the telephones and talking to people that were calling about various things.

Mr. Griffin. Was anybody else there when you arrived?

Mr. Graves. Yes; just about everyone, I think, that worked in the homicide bureau were there.

Mr. Griffin. Who would that be?

Mr. Graves. Oh, of course, my partner, L. D. Montgomery——

Mr. Griffin. Montgomery.

Mr. Graves. E. R. Beck, C. N. Dhority, J. R. Leavelle, C. W. Brown, Lieutenant Wells, those are the ones that I remember right now at the moment.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if Captain Fritz was there?

Mr. Graves. Well, yes; he was there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember whether or not, Lee Oswald was there?

Mr. Graves. He wasn’t there when I first got there in the room.

Mr. Griffin. When you got into the room, do you remember talking with anybody?

Mr. Graves. I don’t remember who I talked with first, when I got there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember having any conversation with anyone regardless of who it might have been, after you got up there, shortly after you arrived?

Mr. Graves. Well, the only conversation I recall actually, is when we were told to bring him down, Oswald down to the captain’s office. Now, the rest was routine stuff.

Mr. Griffin. How long after you arrived would be your best estimate that you were told to bring Oswald down to the captain’s office.

Mr. Graves. Well, let’s see, we would have a thing to show the exact time that I signed him out. At somewhere shortly before 10 o’clock, which would be something over an hour, better part of 2 hours——

Mr. Griffin. In this period from approximately 8 o’clock until shortly before 10, did you have any conversations about the movement of Lee Oswald from the city jail to the county jail?

3 Mr. Graves. Well, the captain told us that he would be transferred in a car.

Mr. Griffin. Captain Fritz told you that?

Mr. Graves. Yes; and at first he wanted to talk to him some more, so, we brought him down to the office so he could be interviewed.

Mr. Griffin. Did Captain Fritz tell you what kind of a car he was going to be transferred in?

Mr. Graves. Yes; we understood it was going to be a regular police car like we use, plain cars.

Mr. Griffin. How long before you got Oswald down did you get this information?

Mr. Graves. Oh, it couldn’t have been but a few minutes, at least.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you told this?

Mr. Graves. In the hallway, or office there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall now whether you were in that homicide office or in the hallway?

Mr. Graves. I believe I was in the hallway when I heard it.

Mr. Griffin. How many other officers were standing around at that time?

Mr. Graves. Oh, I don’t remember really. Probably two or three or four.

Mr. Griffin. How close was Captain Fritz to you when you heard this?

Mr. Graves. As close as you and I are.

Mr. Griffin. We have a table separating us.

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. 6-foot, about a 6-foot table, isn’t it? Was he talking only to you, or talking to the other officers?

Mr. Graves. Generally to all of us.

Mr. Griffin. Now, at this time, were there newspaper people in the area?

Mr. Graves. I don’t believe. At the moment, I don’t believe any newsmen were in there at the time.

Mr. Griffin. This is not in the hallway?

Mr. Graves. No, I mean this little hallway in our bureau—comes from the front entrance. You know, you have been there.

Mr. Griffin. Yes, I have.

Mr. Graves. See, there is a little hallway that comes around——

Mr. Griffin. You are talking about the hallway that, as you open the door off the third floor hallway?

Mr. Graves. No, I am talking about the hallway between the little office and captain’s office.

Mr. Griffin. For the record, about how far were you from the third floor hallway when this conversation took place?

Mr. Graves. 25 feet, approximately.

Mr. Griffin. And do you remember the other officers who were standing around at the time?

Mr. Graves. Well, Leavelle and Montgomery for sure. I don’t know who else right now. Beck—Dhority and Beck both could have been in there. I am not sure about that.

Mr. Griffin. How long did this conversation with Captain Fritz last?

Mr. Graves. Just long enough to say that—“We are going to get him down and talk to him, and get the car ready in the basement.” Told Dhority and Brown what to do about the cars, also Beck, and so, we went up and got him and brought him down.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you were instructed to go up and bring down Oswald, were Dhority and Brown given instructions by Fritz about the automobiles?

Mr. Graves. I’m going to have to say that I am not sure whether it was at that moment, or after we brought him down, and I kind of believe that it was then that they got the cars ready and put them in the basement, and that at the last minute just before we took him down, we were instructed to move that car up there to the entrance exit of the jail office, and I am pretty sure that that is the way that went.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, just directing your attention to the time that you were instructed to go up and bring Oswald down for interrogation, what other conversation do you remember taking place with Fritz?

4 Mr. Graves. Well, that was all that was said to me at that time.

Mr. Griffin. Who went up with you?

Mr. Graves. Leavelle and Dhority.

Mr. Griffin. And did you talk with Lee Oswald on your way down?

Mr. Graves. No, didn’t say anything to him.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after you brought Oswald down to the homicide bureau?

Mr. Graves. Brought him in the office with Captain Fritz and the other people that were in there.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what did you do when you——

Mr. Graves. I went back outside and started answering phones, or doing whatever it was to be done for a while, but I didn’t go back in the office until just before we were ready to move him.

Mr. Griffin. While you were out there answering telephones and so forth, did you hear any more about the movement of Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. Graves. Not while I was outside, no.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Chief Curry come in?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did he say anything that you heard about the movement of Oswald?

Mr. Graves. Not where I could hear him. He went in the office and this—presumably discussed something with Captain Fritz. I believe he made a number of trips there during the time that he was being interviewed.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any rumors circulating in the homicide bureau about how Oswald would be transferred?

Mr. Graves. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Well, then, when was the next time that you got any information about moving Lee Oswald?

Mr. Graves. Immediately after, just a few minutes before the interview was completed, I went in the office, and we were instructed that we were to take him down, and he would be taken in the car.

Mr. Griffin. Who was in the office when you walked in?

Mr. Graves. Well, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Holmes.

Mr. Griffin. Sorrels is from the Secret Service?

Mr. Graves. Mr. Holmes is from the Postal Department—I believe it is the Postal Department, and I can’t think of the other man’s name now.

Mr. Griffin. Man from the FBI?

Mr. Graves. Yes; I have that in the little report that I wrote, but I can’t think of his name right now. It is a simple name, too, but I can’t think of it.

Mr. Griffin. Was it Hall?

Mr. Graves. Who?

Mr. Griffin. Hall?

Mr. Graves. No.

Mr. Griffin. Well, that is all right. We can get that.

Mr. Graves. It wasn’t him. Oh, let’s see——

Mr. Griffin. Any other police officers in the office?

Mr. Graves. Let’s see. Leavelle. I believe Montgomery was in there, too.

Mr. Griffin. Now, what was said when you came in?

Mr. Graves. Well, I walked in and asked—last thing I heard was—Oswald say was that—“Well, people will soon forget that the President was shot.” And then—Chief Curry, incidentally, was in there at that time, too, and he was around over behind the desk by Captain Fritz. Between he and Mr. Sorrels, and something was discussed about an armored car, but they decided that they would send an armored car on as a decoy, because it couldn’t get down into the basement.

Mr. Griffin. You had heard a conversation about that?

Mr. Graves. I heard that discussed just briefly, the armored car was there, but——

Mr. Griffin. Well, did you hear the discussion about a decoy?

Mr. Graves. Well, Captain Fritz turned back to me and Leavelle, told us that the armored car would go ahead, and that we would leave out in the regular5 car; so, he told Leavelle to handcuff himself to Oswald. Can I tell you something off the record?

Mr. Griffin. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Graves. I expect it doesn’t matter. I thought about it later. It doesn’t mean anything, I don’t suppose, unless it has some sentimental value to him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear Oswald say anything, or any other conversation with Oswald before you took him down?

Mr. Graves. I heard some other conversation, but I am vague on what it was. Discussion between he and—I wish I could remember that man’s name. I want to say, “O’Malley.” Seems like it was an Irish name. He was asking him something about his stay in Russia and some of his activities down in Mexico and—but just what his answer was, I am vague on it. He discussed something with him, and I wasn’t paying too much attention at the time. Some answers that he gave.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us what happened when Oswald went to get something?

Mr. Graves. We asked him if he would like to put on something. He just had on this white T-shirt, see, and asked him if he would like to put on something. So, when we got these clothes off the rack and started to give him a light-colored jacket or shirt, and said, “If it is all the same to you”—said, “I’d rather wear that black sweater.”

Mr. Griffin. Whose black sweater was that?

Mr. Graves. Well, his, presumably. So, we let him put it on.

Mr. Griffin. Where were the clothes?

Mr. Graves. They were in the captain’s office back there in the back, and brought them in there so he could pick out something to wear.

Mr. Griffin. Were they all his?

Mr. Graves. Yes, yes; they were. Then——

Mr. Griffin. Did you help him put his——

Mr. Graves. I assisted him in putting this on. Then, we, of course, started on out with him. Went on to the elevator, down the hall to what they call the jail office elevator.

Mr. Griffin. Were you given any instructions as to how you should guard him?

Mr. Graves. As I said, I was—told to hold to the arm and walk close to him and Montgomery was to walk behind us and Captain Fritz, and Lieutenant Swain in front of us and that is the way we started out to the elevator, and out of the elevator door over to the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any discussion about staying close to Oswald?

Mr. Graves. We were instructed to stay close to him; yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right, now, was there any discussion about protecting Oswald from other people who’d like to get at him?

Mr. Graves. Well, to come down and tell us to do that would be elementary, actually, because, I mean, we just know to do that, and our captain knows that we know to do that. So, actually, we weren’t specifically told, “Now, you just watch this man and don’t let anybody touch him.” Or anything like that. We were told that the way would be open and nobody would be interfering with us. Wouldn’t be anybody there. All we would have to do was walk to the car.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any fear that somebody might come right up in front of him and do something to him?

Mr. Graves. We didn’t have any fear of that because as I said, that—we were told that the security was so that no one would be there but newsmen and officers.

Mr. Griffin. Now, prior to taking Oswald down to the basement, had you learned anything about the threatening telephone calls which the police department had received?

Mr. Graves. I had not. At that time I didn’t know that there had been any threatening calls.

Mr. Griffin. Did you subsequently learn?

6 Mr. Graves. Yes; learned later that the FBI had a call to that effect, but I learned that our office had had similar calls, too.

Mr. Griffin. What route did you follow when you left Captain Fritz’ office with Oswald?

Mr. Graves. Of course, went out our door and turned left, which would be—south.

Mr. Griffin. Went into the third floor hallway?

Mr. Graves. Third floor hallway; yes, sir; and went to a solid door which leads us into the jail elevator.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked out, were there news people out in the hallway?

Mr. Graves. Yes, lots of them.

Mr. Griffin. Were there TV cameras up in the hallway?

Mr. Graves. Yes; all kinds of cameras.

Mr. Griffin. Now, how long a period of time lapsed from the time you stopped answering the telephone calls until you got out on the third floor hallway with Oswald?

Mr. Graves. Ten or 15 minutes, I guess, approximately.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you stopped answering the telephone calls to go into Captain Fritz’ office, were you aware that you were going in there for the purpose of getting ready to move Oswald out?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How did you become aware of that?

Mr. Graves. We were told that we were going to move him.

Mr. Griffin. Who told you that?

Mr. Graves. Captain Fritz.

Mr. Griffin. He told you?

Mr. Graves. Yes; I don’t know whether he walked out and told me. You know, in the process, the door was opened and he talked to some of us at the door and so forth.

Mr. Griffin. Now, prior to the time that you actually went out there in the hallway with Oswald, did you have any information as to whether the people who were members of the press were aware that Oswald was about to be brought out?

Mr. Graves. I—it was my understanding they knew that he was to be transferred at 10 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. Well, I mean——

Mr. Graves. Well, no, no; we—if you mean if we—told them when we were leaving with him, we didn’t do that. We just walked out with him.

Mr. Griffin. But what about a sharp newsman who was keeping his eyes and ears open? Could he see through the door? Could he see the activity?

Mr. Graves. Could he see the preparation——

Mr. Griffin. For bringing out——

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Could one see Oswald putting on his sweater, for example?

Mr. Graves. Maybe not that, but he could have seen us pass it over to him. I believe those blinds were open there on—coming out to the secretary’s office there. I believe they were. I’m not sure about that, but if they were open they could have seen from the front door standing at the hallway at an angle. They could have seen that sweater or clothes changing hands. I don’t believe where Oswald was standing he could see him from that angle, but I—like I said, a good, sharp newsman knowing the activity, he could see and naturally know that something was fixing to happen.

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived at the elevators on the third floor, was the elevator there waiting for you?

Mr. Graves. I think it was waiting right there for us.

Mr. Griffin. Now, which elevator did you come down in?

Mr. Graves. It is called the inside jail elevator, which is used only for the transfer of prisoners from one floor to the other and basement.

Mr. Griffin. And who went into the elevator with you?

Mr. Graves. Well, it was Leavelle, Montgomery, Swain, and Captain Fritz and myself and, of course, Oswald.

7 Mr. Griffin. Where was Chief Curry at that time?

Mr. Graves. I don’t know. He left just before we did and I don’t know where he went.

Mr. Griffin. How long would you estimate Chief Curry left before you people walked out of the homicide bureau with Oswald?

Mr. Graves. You know, I couldn’t tell you. I—I—actually, the chief could have been standing in there somewhere and I wouldn’t know it—because when we were given the final go to get him ready or get his sweater on him, I didn’t pay any attention to who else was in there or what happened. They told me to get him ready and walked out with him. He could have left a few minutes ahead of us; I don’t know, it would be a guess, because I really don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, what happened when you got to the basement?

Mr. Graves. Well, we got down to the basement. We hesitated on the elevator until Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Swain stepped out. Then we followed them around the outside exit door into the hallway which leads to the ramp and then hesitated there a little bit with Oswald so they could check out there and see that everything was all right, and when we got the go ahead sign that everything was all right we walked out with him.

Mr. Griffin. And how many steps did you take before something happened?

Mr. Graves. You mean after we walked out in the hallway?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Graves. It is approximately 15 feet from where I was to the jail house door where we came out into the hallway, roughly 15 feet.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd?

Mr. Graves. No; I didn’t see Jack Ruby move out of the crowd.

Mr. Griffin. When was the first time that you noticed Jack Ruby?

Mr. Graves. I estimated before I saw the film it was a split second before he pulled that trigger and actually, he was taking a step and coming down like so [indicating]. I caught him out of the corner of my eye and I thought that I started reaching for him at that moment, which the film indicates that I did, which happened quickly, as you know.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Graves. Just a matter of simultaneous movement. You just move when you see something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually see the gun before you heard it—heard the shots fired?

Mr. Graves. Yes; in fact, that is the first thing I saw coming that way, and I just started after it, I guess, automatically, nothing else to do, that I could see.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see how the newsmen were spread out as you walked out of that hallway?

Mr. Graves. I saw how they weren’t spread out. I was under the impression there wouldn’t be any news media inside that rampway, that they would be behind that area over there, but they were in the way.

Mr. Griffin. How did you get that impression?

Mr. Graves. Well, Chief Curry told Captain Fritz that the security was taken care of, that there wouldn’t be nobody in that ramp. Anyway, that cameras would be over behind that rail of that ramp. So, what we expected to find was our officers along the side there, but we found newsmen inside that ramp, in fact, in the way of that car. Now, we—Captain Fritz sent Dhority and Brown and Beck on down to the basement in plenty of time to get that car up there for us, and when they got down there and run into mass confusion of pressmen, we almost backed over some of them to get up there.

Mr. Griffin. Now, after Fritz sent Dhority and Brown down, did they send word back up to Fritz’ office that everything was ready in the basement?

Mr. Graves. Somebody did. I believe Baker called—Lieutenant Baker called down from our office to check with the jail downstairs and see that everything was ready. Somebody gave them the word. I don’t know whether it was Lieutenant Wiggins or who told them that it was all right. Everything was in order.

Mr. Griffin. You say you were quite surprised when you saw these news people?

Mr. Graves. I was surprised that they were rubbing my elbow. You know,8 if you saw that film, you saw one of them with a mike in his hand. He actually rubbed my elbow. We were in a slight turn when this thing happened, and my attention had been called to that car door, and this joker was standing there with a microphone in his hand, and others that—I don’t know if they were newsmen—they weren’t officers—had cameras around their necks and everything.

Mr. Griffin. As you looked up at that line of news people, from your left over to the TV cameras, how many lines deep is it your recollection that they were?

Mr. Graves. Well, I would say two or three deep until they crossed that ramp and went down the side. Might not have been more than one deep there. Might not have been much room, because the car was trying to come in there. Might have been two deep. I know there was a line of men there, and how deep I don’t know. I saw through the corner of my eye a movement over there of men.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked out, did you notice any police officers that you recognized?

Mr. Graves. Oh, yes; I recognized officers standing around the walls there.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked out, did you see Officer Harrison?

Mr. Graves. No; I didn’t see him. Matter of fact, I never did see him until it was all over. You are talking about “Blackie”?

Mr. Griffin. “Blackie” Harrison; W. J. Harrison.

Mr. Graves. I didn’t see him until it was all over.

Mr. Griffin. When you saw Jack come forward with the gun in his hand, did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Graves. I heard noise. There was a racing of a motor and noises, talking going on. As I say, my attention had been directed to that car, and we had already turned, looked in that direction and something could have been said, but as I said, I heard noises but just exactly what was said I wasn’t able to determine.

Mr. Griffin. What do you remember doing when Jack came forward with the gun?

Mr. Graves. I remember going after the gun. Just the moment I saw him, that is what I actually did, was go for the gun.

Mr. Griffin. And did you wrestle with him? With Jack?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Will you tell us what you remember Jack Ruby doing from the time you saw him and while you wrestled with him and so forth?

Mr. Graves. Well, I grabbed his arm by the wrist with my left hand, and grabbed right over the gun with my right hand simultaneously.

Mr. Griffin. You grabbed the arm holding the gun?

Mr. Graves. Yes; and jerked it down and across my leg and turned my back to him, and, of course, he was trying to pull back, and was squeezing on that trigger like so [indicating].

I had his wrist here [indicating], and I could feel it, and I remember saying, “turn it loose. Turn it loose.” You know, like that.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are making a motion like you are twisting his arm?

Mr. Graves. Yes; I was. See, I had it like this, and I had got that arm and then twisted that gun like that [indicating], right out of his hand, see.

Mr. Griffin. Let me indicate for the record that you have shown that you twisted his arm 180°.

Mr. Graves. Until he released it.

Mr. Griffin. Until he released the gun?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How long was it from the time you released—grabbed his arm until he released the gun?

Mr. Graves. Just a matter of seconds.

Mr. Griffin. It was not a long struggle?

Mr. Graves. No.

Mr. Griffin. Fairly easy to wrestle the gun away?

Mr. Graves. Put it this way. It wasn’t easy because he had a grip on the gun, but the way I took it, he had to turn it loose. I had his arm—kind of hard to explain—take your arm and bend it over my leg like that and twist down on it like that [indicating]. You have got to give.

Mr. Griffin. You are bending the arm over your leg?

9 Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Jack say anything?

Mr. Graves. He didn’t say anything to me. I understand that he said something, that is, some things to the officer that took him in. I——

Mr. Griffin. I mean, as you were struggling with him?

Mr. Graves. No; not to me. I had his arm over and my back to him and, of course, officers were covering him up, and when I got the gun loose from him, of course, they snatched him away from me, and by the time I got straightened up to check that gun and see if the hammer was back or not, they had already taken him into the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do there? You were standing there or lying?

Mr. Graves. I was standing. I never did go down.

Mr. Griffin. Standing with the gun in your hand, what did you do at that point?

Mr. Graves. Put the gun in my pocket and went on inside the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived inside the jail office, where was Ruby?

Mr. Graves. Ruby was, I believe, to my right; just to my right, to the right of the jail office door. Of course, there were men around there and Oswald was back——

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there?

Mr. Graves. I didn’t remain with Ruby at all. Just kind of hesitated and looked over and went on. I believe Montgomery asked me if I got the gun and I said, “Yes,” and kept on.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you walk?

Mr. Graves. Walked back to where Oswald was.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear him say anything?

Mr. Graves. I didn’t hear him say anything.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got back to where Oswald was?

Mr. Graves. Stood there and watched the doctor work with him until the ambulance came.

Mr. Griffin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Graves. Well, they put him in the ambulance and I got in the ambulance with him and went to Parkland Hospital and got off there and took him right into emergency and worked with him a few minutes. And got him prepared for the operating room, and, so, we caught the elevator with him and with the doctors and nurses and went on up to the second floor, and I changed into one of those scrub uniforms and crepe-soled shoes and went over to the door of the operating room, where I stayed until such time as he was pronounced dead.

Mr. Griffin. Outside of the operating room?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. As you were standing outside of the operating room, did you hear discussion about how Ruby got into the building?

Mr. Graves. No; I didn’t—an FBI man came up there a little later and stood with me.

Mr. Griffin. To go back just a minute, you have already told me this before in an earlier interview, but I want to make this clear for the record. You knew Ruby before this occasion when you saw him shoot Oswald?

Mr. Graves. I will tell you how I knew Ruby. He opened a joint, a dancehall down on South Ervay called the Silver Spur something like 10 years ago, approximately. That is where I first knew Jack Ruby existed. Since that time I have just known about Jack Ruby——

Mr. Griffin. How did you know him down there?

Mr. Graves. Well, as a joint operator, you know, when you work in a uniform that is part of the business, to know who runs places.

Mr. Griffin. What bureau were you in at that time?

Mr. Graves. I was in the radio patrol bureau at that time.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Graves. And later I learned that he opened a place out on Oak Lawn called The Vegas Club.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Ruby in the police department over the years before that?

10 Mr. Graves. I have never in my entire time at that police station seen Jack Ruby in the police station. Now, it is possible Jack was down there. I know he has been in jail, but to say that he, like some people do hang around the police station, I have never seen him do that, and I have worked all hours. That still doesn’t mean that he couldn’t have been coming in there. However, with someone that worked opposite hours to me—and I wouldn’t see him, but during the time that I have been there I have never seen him hanging around the police station. You know, speculation is, is that he is a friend of the police and so forth. He might have done some policeman some favor, I don’t know that to be true, so, it would be speculating on my part to say that he was.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Graves. Oh, I’d hate to say this for the record, not seeing my report. Until he died. This in the basement happened about 11:10, or 11:19, and we reached Parkland a few minutes after. He was pronounced dead at 1 something.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t really care about the exact time. We are going to get the time records and check it out there but what I am trying to establish is when you learned that he was dead, what did you do?

Mr. Graves. Well, of course, we made arrangements to get the pathologist up there and maintaining guards over him, even during the time he was in the morgue. We discussed that, and then Clardy and Brown were charged with that responsibility, and I changed clothes and me and Leavelle, I believe me and Leavelle came back to city hall with Officer Burgess.

Mr. Griffin. About what time would you say he got back to the city hall?

Mr. Graves. Well, again, I wouldn’t want to say definitely. I think somewhere around 2:30 or 3:45, somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. Griffin. Up to the time that you got back to city hall, had you heard anything about how Ruby might have gotten into the basement?

Mr. Graves. No; I hadn’t, sure hadn’t. Of course, everyone was wondering at that point how it happened and how he got in there, but I hadn’t heard anything at that point. Hadn’t seen or been around anybody except those that I went out there with and they didn’t know any more than I did.

Mr. Griffin. When you got back to the police department, what did you do?

Mr. Graves. I went back to the office, of course.

Mr. Griffin. Homicide bureau?

Mr. Graves. Homicide bureau.

Mr. Griffin. Who was there at the time?

Mr. Graves. Well, frankly, I don’t remember who all were in the office. I know Jack Ruby was in Captain Fritz’ office talking with him.

Mr. Griffin. Who else was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time?

Mr. Graves. I don’t know, frankly. That window blind was open there and I could see Jack Ruby, and I could see Captain Fritz and some other people were in there, but just who, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Now, was Jack Ruby fully clothed at the time?

Mr. Graves. I believe they had already put some white clothes on him, jail clothes, taken his suit off of him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you go into Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. Graves. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see Jack Ruby anymore until they transferred him to the county.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to any police officer that day about how Ruby got into the jail?

Mr. Graves. As I say, I just heard rumors going around, and at this point I don’t really remember who related it to me, but—there was rumors that he——

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember as you got back there what the first rumor was that you heard circulating?

Mr. Graves. Yes; that he slipped in the basement by a squad car when they drove out the north ramp.

Mr. Griffin. You heard this when you got back to the——

Mr. Graves. Sometime after I got back. Just exactly when, I don’t know, but that got around shortly after. It could have been 2 or 3 hours later, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. What was the next rumor that you heard?

Mr. Graves. Well, I don’t know. I heard that Chief Batchelor and a couple11 of the detectives had walked down the ramp and Ruby walked in with them, and I heard that he probably had a pass.

Mr. Griffin. And——

Mr. Graves. Press pass, and he used that on one of the officers at the door to get in. You can hear everything.

Mr. Griffin. When did you first hear the rumor that he had walked down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Graves. Well, I can’t remember. Just some time that day after we got back there from the hospital.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear it before or after the other rumors that you are relating?

Mr. Graves. That was the first one that I heard, really.

Mr. Griffin. That he walked down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Graves. That he walked down the ramp when that squad car drove out.

Mr. Griffin. And people came out of Captain Fritz’ office, who had been talking with Ruby, did you hear anything coming out of Captain Fritz’ office as to how Ruby got in?

Mr. Graves. No; sure didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever learn from any of the detectives who had been talking to Ruby in Captain Fritz’ office how Ruby got into the jail basement?

Mr. Graves. Well, let’s see. I don’t know who it was, that told me how he (Ruby) got in. Now, Captain Fritz later told us that he asked Ruby how he got in there and he told him, I believe it was, at that time that he would rather not discuss that.

Mr. Griffin. All right. And did Captain Fritz tell you this shortly after this interview that Fritz was having with Ruby?

Mr. Graves. It was some time after the interview. And I don’t remember exactly when, but it was some time after he had talked with him. Maybe the second time, I don’t know, but it was some time after he had told him, and they told——

Mr. Griffin. Now, at the time that Ruby—at the time that you learned from Fritz that Ruby didn’t want to talk about how he got in this basement, had you already heard that Ruby came down the ramp?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Had you already heard the other rumors which you have related?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you later hear from Captain Fritz, or any other police officer that he had talked with Ruby and Ruby had said something about how he got in——

Mr. Graves. I didn’t hear that from Captain Fritz that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. But, from any other police officer?

Mr. Graves. Something to the effect that he told somebody how he got in there, but I never did find out the straight of that. They had started a full scale investigation in terms of what happened in the basement at that time. Nobody was telling anybody anything so I just dropped it.

Mr. Griffin. About what time did they——

Mr. Graves. I don’t know exactly when they started that, but, they started trying to find out what happened, and I am sure, immediately.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk with Officer Dean, as far as you can remember?

Mr. Graves. I didn’t discuss it with Officer Dean at all.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever talk with Officer McMillon?

Mr. Graves. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or Officer Clardy?

Mr. Graves. Can we go off the record?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. On the record for this. Is there anything that we haven’t covered in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald, including how Ruby got into the basement, or things that might shed some light upon Ruby’s motive or possible associates that he might have had that you could tell the Commission?

12 Mr. Graves. No, and I wish that there was. Listen, as I said, we have heard a lot of things but we have never been able to prove anything, so, again, what I have heard is just speculation, and just talk. I have heard that he was connected with any number of people. Trying to prove that—telling us—but there is nothing concrete in terms of evidence to prove that he was connected with them in any way, so far as I know. Somebody may know something that I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know anything of your own knowledge that you think might bear light one way or the other?

Mr. Graves. No, I don’t; again, like I say, I wish that there was something, but, of course, I am sure that everybody is like me and listen to everybody and everything and try to make sense out of this thing to the best of their ability by checking everything.

Mr. Griffin. I’m going to mark for identification here—we are going to call this, “Dallas, Tex., Detective Graves, March 24, 1904. Exhibit No. 5003.” And I’m going to mark these pages 5003-A and 5003-B and 5003-C. Now, these are copies of FBI reports which purport to be interviews that were had by the FBI agents, with you. Exhibit 5003-A is a report of an interview on November 24, taken by Special Agent Bookhout and Agent Rabidoux. Do you remember approximately when these gentlemen talked with you?

Mr. Graves. To the best of my recollection, it was in the evening part of the day, but just exactly when, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Exhibit 5003-B, and Exhibit 5003-C, consists of one interview with you by Special Agent Bookhout, Jim Bookhout.

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And that was dated on November 24. Do you remember approximately what time of day that was?

Mr. Graves. That was pretty soon after this thing happened, after I got back from the hospital, so, you can say roughly, I guess, around 3 o’clock, 3 or 4 o’clock. That is just—that is an approximate time. He was the first one I talked to. There was something in there that I want to call your attention to, though.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand these to you and let you examine Exhibits 5003-A, 5003-B and C, and tell us if there is anything in there that you would want to amplify or correct or change in any manner?

Mr. Graves. Let me see. I will have to find it now.

Mr. Griffin. Just take your time.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Graves. This right here says, “Captain Fritz was in the lead and was standing at the edge of the ramp waiting to get into the front seat of the car,” actually, he was at the rear of that car door, fixing to open it, if he didn’t already have it open.

Mr. Griffin. What exhibit number are you referring to, sir?

Mr. Graves. 5003-B. No; that’s right here. “Graves and Leavelle stopped momentarily for the car to back up,” that is a bad choice of phrasing in that situation. We, actually can’t say that we were stopped, we were still in motion when this thing happened. It was a momentary glance to the right and a slight turn in that direction, but we were still in motion.

Mr. Griffin. Did you make this correction as a result of having viewed the movies, or something that you remember independently of the movies?

Mr. Graves. I remembered that later. Of course, I saw it also on the movies later which verified it, but after I had gotten this thing and read it over then, I realized that we actually hadn’t stopped.

Mr. Griffin. I recall that I have neglected to administer an oath to you in the course of this deposition, Mr. Graves. I wonder if you would raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that everything that you have said here today is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Graves. I do.

Mr. Griffin. Is there anything more that you have to tell us?

Mr. Graves. I can’t think of anything at this time. Except for those little things, I believe those are basically true and correct.

Mr. Griffin. We certainly appreciate your coming here today.

13

The testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 10:55 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is a continuation of the deposition of Mr. L. C. Graves of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Graves, as you know, my name is Leon Hubert, and I am one of the staff members of the Commission.

Previously, to wit, on March 24, 1964, you gave a deposition through which Mr. Burt Griffin appeared as a staff member. He cited to you at that time the authority under which he was acting, and also I think you took an oath at that time?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to consider this morning’s continuation as a part of that deposition given on March 24, 1964, in the sense that I am acting under the same authority and have the same authority as Mr. Griffin had?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to consider also that you are under the same oath that you took at the earlier time for this later time?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And that this is just a continuation?

Mr. Graves. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. As though it were the next day instead of 3 weeks later?

Mr. Graves. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. The purpose of asking you to come back is to clarify something which appears on pages 67 and 68 of your deposition on March 24, 1964. At line 17 on page 67, you asked Mr. Griffin as follows:

“Can I tell you something off the record?” And he answered in line 18, “Sure.” Then, the record at line 19 indicates that there was a discussion off the record. Now, you give an answer between lines 21 and 24 as follows, to wit:

“I expect it doesn’t matter. I thought about it later. It doesn’t mean anything, I don’t suppose, unless it has some sentimental value to him.” Now, the next sentence and the next few lines which go over to page 68, do not seem to refer to the matter which in that quoted sentence you designated as “having some sentimental value.” Now, I invite your attention to lines 15 through 22 on page 68 and ask you to read those lines.

Mr. Graves. Starting with Mr. Griffin?

Mr. Hubert. No; starting with your answer.

Mr. Graves. “We asked him——”

Mr. Hubert. No; don’t read them out loud, just read them to yourself.

Mr. Graves. [Read deposition as requested by Counsel Hubert.]

Mr. Hubert. Now, I ask you if the thought contained in your testimony at page 68 between lines 15 and 22 does not relate to the matter which you had characterized as something having a sentimental value to him on lines 22 thru 24 on page 67?

Mr. Graves. That’s what I had reference to.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be fair to say, then, that there was no more to the conversation off the record than the subject of something that had a sentimental value, and that the thing that did have sentimental value was explained by you in your answer on page 68 between lines 15 and 22?

Mr. Graves. Not only would it be fair, but it would be truthful, because that’s exactly what happened.

Mr. Hubert. That’s exactly what happened and nothing more?

Mr. Graves. And nothing more or nothing less.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you very much.

Mr. Graves. That’s all?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; that’s all. I hate to bring you down for something like this, but we had to do it to get it clear.

Mr. Graves. That’s all right—that’s all right.

14

The testimony of James Robert Leavelle was taken at 3:30 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of James R. Leavelle, with the Dallas Police Department. Mr. Leavelle, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in accordance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Leavelle. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Lee H. Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Leavelle, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Leavelle, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, and also, under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice, if he wishes to do so. Now, you have not had that 3-day notice, and so, I wish to know if you would like to waive the 3-day notice?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right, then, would you—I think you said you would waive that notice, didn’t you?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Would you stand and raise your right hand so that I can swear you in?

Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Leavelle. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you please state your full name?

Mr. Leavelle. James Robert Leavelle.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mr. Leavelle. Forty——

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Mr. Leavelle. Wait. Forty-three.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Mr. Leavelle. 7703 Rilla Avenue, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. Police officer.

Mr. Hubert. Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Leavelle. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. Leavelle. Fourteen years, approximately.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you held the position you now hold?

Mr. Leavelle. About 8 years.

Mr. Hubert. What is that position?

Mr. Leavelle. A detective.

Mr. Hubert. Any particular part of the department?

Mr. Leavelle. I work at the present time in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. Hubert. Who is your immediate superior there?

Mr. Leavelle. Capt. Will Fritz.

Mr. Hubert. And who is above him?

Mr. Leavelle. Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Hubert. Who answers, in turn, to Chief Curry?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

15 Mr. Hubert. Now I pass to you two documents which you have read, and which I now want to identify, by marking them as follows: The first document, which purports to be a report by FBI Agent Bookhout, of an interview with you on November 24, I am marking as follows: “Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964, Exhibit No. 5088. Deposition of J. R. Leavelle.” I am signing my name below that, and marking the second page with my initials, in the lower right-hand corner. The second document I am also marking, “Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5089, deposition of J. R. Leavelle,” and signing my name also and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second page of that document. The second document, 5089, purports to be an FBI report of an interview with you by Special Agents Bramblett and Logan. Now, addressing myself first to the document which is marked 5088, I will ask you if you have read that document?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And whether or not it states substantially the truth?

Mr. Leavelle. Substantially so.

Mr. Hubert. Now, did you find any errors in it?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I think that is all right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you wish to delete or add anything to it?

Mr. Leavelle. No; let it stand.

Mr. Hubert. With that, would you, please, sign your name below mine, if you wish, and initial the second page below my initials. Now, I hand you the document that I have marked for identification as Exhibit 5089, and ask you the same questions with respect to that document.

Mr. Leavelle. Yes; I think this is the one that had the article in there about the short interview, if it makes any difference.

Mr. Hubert. Well, would you point out what paragraph you are talking about?

Mr. Leavelle. Let me see if I can find it here. I am sure it was on this one rather than the other one. There was one right here on the—on the one Bookhout took. Now, let me see that again.

Mr. Hubert. Here.

Mr. Leavelle. It is the contents of the last paragraph on the second page, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. Hubert. I think you are speaking of the third sentence of the last paragraph on the second page, a sentence which reads as follows, to wit: “He was never present while Oswald was being interviewed, nor was he present while Ruby was being interviewed by the Dallas Police officers.” I think you wish to comment upon that, do you not?

Mr. Leavelle. Correct that to read, “With the exception of possibly 15 minutes prior to the actual transfer began on the 24th.”

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, after you had been selected as an officer to whom——

Mr. Leavelle. Would handle the transfer.

Mr. Hubert. You were directed to go to Captain Fritz’ office, and you did so, is that right?

Mr. Leavelle. Of course, I was directed to go there early in the morning. I have that. What I am referring to, of course, once I got Oswald out of jail I stayed with him up to the end.

Mr. Hubert. When did you get him out of jail?

Mr. Leavelle. I got him out of jail at, oh, I don’t remember the exact time, but it was—it was between 9:30 that morning that I was instructed to go get him by Captain Fritz from the jail, and bring him to his office, which I did, and I went into his cell and put the handcuffs on him inside the cell.

Mr. Hubert. And you brought him down to——

Mr. Leavelle. Brought him down, and I remained with him, or in the office from then on up until the actual transfer took place.

Mr. Hubert. Well, during that period, was there interviewing going on only 15 minutes?

Mr. Leavelle. Well, I made a note here, “at 9:30,” but I could be in error on that time. They may have talked—I am sure that my note is in error16 here. It would probably be between 10:30 and 11, probably an hour off of that. However, there is a transfer sign out which would show the correct time.

Mr. Hubert. That is what you call a—“tempo”?

Mr. Leavelle. The “tempo,” yes, which shows the correct time.

Mr. Hubert. Anyway, you were with Oswald at all times from the time of the “tempo,” until he was actually shot?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And any interviewing that happened in that period you were present at?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So that you want to modify Exhibit 5089, in the sentence that I read in that respect?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, I had known him. I have—I had previously stated I met him back in 1951, or thereabouts, when I was working the area that his Silver Spur was located in on South Ervay, and became acquainted with him.

Mr. Hubert. I understand that some time in 1963, you received an anonymous call that there was going to be a hijacking of his club. What does that mean, a “hijacking”?

Mr. Leavelle. That means that someone is going to use a pistol and take the money from the cashier, or whoever had custody of it.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, a robbery, or burglary?

Mr. Leavelle. Armed robbery is what it amounts to.

Mr. Hubert. So, in order to guard against that, you and a fellow officer went down to——

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Down to the club and stayed there watching for it?

Mr. Leavelle. We stayed there until closing time. I think they stopped the people from coming in, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. You did not tell Ruby what was going on?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes; we told—of course, Ruby was not there. This was the Carousel Club on Oak Lawn, which was operated by his sister, Eva Grant, and we told her what the situation was, and she gave us a—use of a booth near the door where we could get there in the booth and observe anyone coming in or out.

Mr. Hubert. That was the Vegas Club on Ervay?

Mr. Leavelle. No, sir; on Oak Lawn. That is the Carousel on Commerce Street.

Mr. Hubert. The Silver Spur?

Mr. Leavelle. The Silver Spur, it has long since been out of existence.

Mr. Hubert. So, you told his sister what the situation was?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And Ruby came in later?

Mr. Leavelle. He came in just about closing time, and she probably had called him, because he already knew that we were out here. Of course, I just am assuming she had probably already called him. He didn’t seem particular perturbed about it at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize Ruby right away when he came out of the crowd?

Mr. Leavelle. I recognized him as someone that I knew, but I was unable to call his name.

Mr. Hubert. Just describe in your own words how the whole thing happened, what you saw from the time you left the jail door?

Mr. Leavelle. From the time we left the jail door?

Mr. Hubert. Yes; push it back a little further. From the time you left the jail cell.

Mr. Leavelle. All right, when we left the jail cell, we proceeded down to the booking desk there, up to the door leading out into the basement, and I purposely told Mr. Graves to hold it a minute while Captain Fritz checked the area outside. I don’t know why I did that, because we had not made any plans to do so, but I said, “Let’s hold it a minute and let him see if everything17 is in order.” Because we had been given to understand that the car would be across the passageway.

Mr. Hubert. Of the jail corridor?

Mr. Leavelle. And that—and we would have nothing to do but walk straight from the door, approximately 13 or 14 feet to the car and then Captain Fritz—when we asked him to give us the high sign on it he said, “Everything is all set.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you notice what time it was?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I did not. That is the only error that I can see. The captain should have known that the car was not in the position it should be, and I was surprised when I walked to the door and the car was not in the spot it should have been, but I could see it was in back, and backing into position, but had it been in position where we were told it would be, that would have eliminated a lot of the area in which anyone would have access to him, because it would have been blocked by the car. In fact, if the car had been sitting where we were told it was going to be, see—it would have been sitting directly upon the spot where Ruby was standing when he fired the shot.

Mr. Hubert. Of course, in that case the television cameras would have been blocked out?

Mr. Leavelle. That’s true.

Mr. Hubert. The car was not pulled back because pulling it back would block the——

Mr. Leavelle. That, I don’t know. Of course, you are—according to one of my previous reports I earlier suggested to Captain Fritz that we make the suggestion to the chief that we take him out to the first floor and put him out at Main Street to a car and proceed to the county jail that way and leave them waiting in the basement and on Commerce Street, and we could be to the county jail before anyone knew what was taking place.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you make that suggestion, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. That was either just before or just after—probably just after I had gone there and got Oswald and we were talking about the transfer.

Mr. Hubert. Who did you make that suggestion to?

Mr. Leavelle. I made it to Captain Fritz.

Mr. Hubert. What answer did you receive from him?

Mr. Leavelle. Said he didn’t think the chief would go for it.

Mr. Hubert. Did he say why?

Mr. Leavelle. Because, he said, the chief had given his word to the press that they would transfer him at a time when they could make pictures.

Mr. Hubert. Did you convey that same idea to the chief, himself, or to anyone other than Fritz?

Mr. Leavelle. Other than to Mr. Beck and Brown, Mr. Clardy that was there—Mr. Graves rather. They probably heard me make the suggestion. In fact, Mr. Beck made the suggestion at the same time that we could—I know that he was there, because he made the suggestion at the time, same time, said well, that we could either—instead of going out the Commerce Street, in front of all the people lined up, go out the basement in the opposite direction.

Mr. Hubert. You mean even if you are going to use the basement, use the Main Street instead of Commerce Street?

Mr. Leavelle. That’s right; and he made that suggestion. Of course, Chief Curry had already given his word to the newsmen that they would transfer him and let them get the pictures, and I have just assumed since that the reason that the car wasn’t in position like it was supposed to be was so that they could get the pictures, and the reason for not holding to the schedule previously outlined.

Mr. Hubert. Have you spoken to the chief about that since?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I have not.

Mr. Hubert. Have you spoken to anybody about it, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. No; I haven’t spoke to anyone other than possibly just some of the officers making a remark, “If he had used my suggestion, that we would probably have made it.”

Mr. Hubert. You said that you had reported making that suggestion in one of the reports that you made?

18 Mr. Leavelle. Yes; I think it is in this one right here, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have a copy of that?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes—that is another one.

Mr. Hubert. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, you have made reference to another report which appears on page 63, Commission’s Document No. 81-A, entitled “Investigation of the operational security involving the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963,” prepared by the Dallas Police Department. I am not going to take that page 63, which is in two parts of the bound Commission Document 81-A, but I am going to identify it by marking on it, to-wit, as follows: “Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5090, deposition of J. R. Leavelle,” signing my name below that endorsement, and placing my initial on the second page in the lower right-hand corner. Who prepared this document, 5090?

Mr. Leavelle. I prepared it. It was typed by our secretary up here.

Mr. Hubert. Was it signed by you?

Mr. Leavelle. No; it was not—well, wait a minute now. I believe there was one copy which was, but probably the original that—now, this looks like a mimeographed——

Mr. Hubert. Mimeographed or photographed—one of those. Have you read it?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, sir; I have read it. In fact, here is a copy of it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have a copy in your possession right now?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it correct?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I notice the fourth paragraph on the first page, when you state that you had suggested the transfer be via the first floor of the Main Street door, and that is a recordation of that thought made—when was this dictated?

Mr. Leavelle. When was this dictated?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Leavelle. It was, what you might say, some 2 or 3 days after that, after the shooting. I don’t recall the exact date.

Mr. Hubert. Well, would you——

Mr. Leavelle. In from 2 or 3 days afterward.

Mr. Hubert. Would you complete the identification of this document by placing your signature directly below mine on the first page and your initials below mine on the second page? Did you state that fact to the FBI, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. I don’t recall whether I did or not.

Mr. Hubert. I don’t believe it is in either of the other two documents of the FBI that I have here, 5088, or 5089. Is there any reason why you didn’t?

Mr. Leavelle. Well, to the best of my knowledge it seems as though I might have made that suggestion, made the reference to that, but whether whoever was taking it said that they didn’t need it in their report. I’m sure that’s—now, of course, I can’t swear to this, but I think that is correct because I know I—I am not able to recall at this time exactly what the conversation was between myself and the agent—I—in this, in its entirety, I do know there was one or two things that I told them about, which they did say that they didn’t think was necessary for their report, so, they did not put it in there. Now, whether that was one of them or not, I do not recall.

Mr. Hubert. On the occasion that you think that you might have stated that to the FBI agent, was there one agent interviewing you, or two?

Mr. Leavelle. I believe at one time the two were interviewing me.

Mr. Hubert. How many interviews have you had with the FBI?

Mr. Leavelle. Twice. Mr. Bookhout was out, and then Mr. Bookhout interviewed me on the morning after the shooting, I believe. Is that correct?

Mr. Hubert. Dated November 24.

Mr. Leavelle. Twenty-fourth.

Mr. Hubert. That would be the day of the shooting?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, that is what I mean, and then the other one was sometime after or with the two agents?

19 Mr. Hubert. And you think it was during the interrogation by the two agents on December 10, 1963, that you mentioned about your suggestion that the route should be through the first floor of the Main Street entrance of the municipal building coming out the Main Street door?

Mr. Leavelle. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. But, that those agents told you that that was not important?

Mr. Leavelle. They didn’t need it for that particular form.

Mr. Hubert. I see.

Mr. Leavelle. To the best of my knowledge, of course, my reason for double-crossing—my reasons for wanting to handle it the other way, I thought it would be done quicker and easier and I was fed up to my chin, in a way, with these news people, and they—as soon as we could get rid of them the better, was my sentiments, and I didn’t have any desire to parade through them with the prisoner in tow. However, I can understand why the chief wanted to let them take the pictures.

Mr. Hubert. Had it been your decision you wouldn’t have done it that way, is that it?

Mr. Leavelle. Either as I suggested, or at a different hour.

Mr. Hubert. Say move him in the morning early?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, I brought Ruby down in safety and I don’t think there was any—as long as it was successful, I don’t think you can argue with success.

Mr. Hubert. Did you transfer Ruby?

Mr. Leavelle. Yes, I did.

Mr. Hubert. It was done at an unannounced hour?

Mr. Leavelle. Well, sir; it was so unannounced that the chief didn’t know about it and neither did Sheriff Decker. I don’t know whether they will admit that or not, but no one knew it but Captain Fritz and myself and three or four officers directly involved.

Mr. Hubert. You all just decided to do it, and that was it?

Mr. Leavelle. Well, the captain called me and asked me about it and told me what he was thinking about doing and he wanted to know if I thought it would work and I said, “Yes, I think it will the way it has been set up,” and he said, “I haven’t asked the chief about it,” and I said, “All you can do is get a bawling out, but a bawling out is better than losing a prisoner.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you get bawled out about it?

Mr. Leavelle. I didn’t. I did not know whether he did or not. I doubt it. Because I am sure the chief was relieved to be rid of the responsibility.

Mr. Hubert. How was Ruby removed, then, just for the record?

Mr. Leavelle. Well, this would be on Monday morning, I guess, the next Monday morning around 11, around the same hour that Oswald was transferred. The captain had not showed up and I—he called on the telephone and asked for me and his secretary called me to the phone, and I was in the squad room where several officers were, and asked me if I was in a position where I could talk, and I said, “No, not really,” and he said, “Well—” told me to go into his office and take the phone in there, which I did, and he said, “I am down at the Greyhound Bus Station, and I have Officers Graves and Montgomery with me.”

He had run into them on the street. Said, “We have cased the jail and it looks clear. I am going to make a suggestion to you, and if you don’t think it will work I want you to tell me.”

Said—he said, “We’ll pull through the basement of the city hall,” said, “You go get Ruby out of the jail anyway you want to, on a “tempo” or whatever you think best, and bring him down to me, down in the elevator and we’ll pull through the basement at some given time, and we’ll load him up and whisk him right on down and let another squad follow us and we will take him right on down to the county jail.”

Said, “The sheriff—I haven’t called Decker or the chief about it, either.” Said, “Do you think it will work?”

I said, “Yes.” Said, “How many men—got enough there to help you with him?”

I said, “Yes, there is three or four here I can get.”

“Don’t tell anybody where you are going. Just get them like you are going20 after coffee and get downstairs or somewhere and tell them what you are going to do.”

So, I went into the squad room (Captain Fritz had called) Lieutenant Wells, and told him not to let the officers out of the office because he wanted us when he got in there so I just walked out and motioned to Mr. Brown and Dhority and Mr. Beck and told them to follow me, and didn’t say a word to anyone, and walked downstairs, and, of course, they are curious, and when I got downstairs I outlined the deal to them and told Beck and Brown to get the car—get the other car in the basement and have it in position to go out, and Dhority and I went up and got the prisoner and brought him down.

Mr. Hubert. Brought him down the jail elevator?

Mr. Leavelle. Down the jail elevator.

Mr. Hubert. Were any newsmen down in the station?

Mr. Leavelle. Beg your pardon?

Mr. Hubert. Were there any newsmen down in the basement?

Mr. Leavelle. In fact, when I walked out one of the newspapermen asked me when we were going to transfer Ruby and I said, “Oh, I don’t know.” And just like that, and walked on.

Mr. Hubert. You had Ruby with you?

Mr. Leavelle. You mean—oh, no; the officers and I walking down. When we brought Ruby down in the jail elevator, that elevator is never in view of the public. It is an inside elevator. Never in view of the public, so, anyway, after talking to the captain, I set my watch with his and said, “Be there at exactly 11:15.”

So, he set his watch with mine and we brought Ruby down. That is the reason—I got down there about a minute and a half, 2 minutes early to the basement and told the lieutenant on duty, told everybody not to ring for the elevator that we would have it tied up, just held him in the elevator.

Mr. Hubert. Kept Ruby in the elevator?

Mr. Leavelle. Kept Ruby in the elevator. Mr. Brown standing outside of the jail office, Mr. Beck had his car, his motor running in the parking basement, and Mr. Brown was standing there talking to one of the men in the jail office just as though he was passing the time of day, and he was to give me the nod as soon as the captain’s car pulled in on the ramp, which he did.

Mr. Hubert. Which side did he pull in on?

Mr. Leavelle. Just came off the Main Street ramp and parked across the opening and when he saw him pull in, gave me the high sign and we took Ruby and told him, I said, “I don’t want to have to push you or shove you. I want you to move.” Of course, Ruby was scared, so, he almost outran me to the car. He ran and got in the back seat of the car with Graves, who was already in the back seat, and Montgomery was driving and Mr. Beck, Dhority, and Brown got to the other car and followed us. We proceeded directly to the county jail.

Mr. Hubert. Up Commerce?

Mr. Leavelle. We went up Commerce to the expressway and cut back on the expressway to Main Street, and came down Main Street to Houston Street where the jail is located, and around the corner on Houston Street, to the entrance of the county jail.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any trouble with the traffic going down Main Street?

Mr. Leavelle. We caught every light green going down. Didn’t have to stop.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have the sirens going?

Mr. Leavelle. No, we did not. We drove through there at a good little step faster than normal, but so happened we caught every light. I don’t think we even missed a light. When we reached the jail, the officers in the car behind us bailed out and covered the entrance to the jail, and we were—had him inside in a matter of 20 seconds, from the time the car stopped.

Mr. Hubert. All right, sir. Is there anything else you want to add about anything we have talked about?

Mr. Leavelle. I can’t think of anything else that would be pertinent to it.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Thank you. One more thing on this. You have21 not been previously interviewed by me, or any other members of the Commission’s staff, have you, sir?

Mr. Leavelle. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. Hubert. Okay. That’s all.

The testimony of Detective L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Griffin. Before I administer the oath to you, I want to state for the record, and for your information, what this whole proceeding is all about, and I will introduce myself for the record. My name is Burt W. Griffin, and I’m a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. Now, the Commission consists of seven men, Chief Justice Warren, Senator Cooper, Senator Russell, Congressman Ford of Michigan, and Congressman Hale Boggs of Louisiana, and Allen Dulles, and John McCloy. That is it. And this Commission has an investigatory staff, and that is us. Now, the Commission was appointed under what is known as Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and also under a joint resolution of Congress, 137, and we have also prescribed, pursuant to this order and resolution, a set of rules and procedures which have been adopted by the Commission, and I have been authorized, pursuant to all those orders to take your sworn deposition. Now, a letter has been sent to Chief Curry indicating that I do have this authority to inquire and ascertain and evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Montgomery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, but also to develop any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry, but our central focus in this deposition is going to be on things connected with Ruby’s killing of Oswald. Now, you have appeared here today on the basis of a request which was made by the General Counsel of the Commission. Naturally, under the rules of the Commission you have a right to receive a 3 days’ written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. We can be required to send you a letter in writing. Now I will ask you if, at this point, if you would desire that notice, or if you are willing to waive the notice?

Mr. Montgomery. Waive it.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Also, I should tell you that you are entitled to have an attorney here if you want, and many of the witnesses have appeared with attorneys, and if you indicate to me that you would like to have your deposition postponed until you could talk with an attorney, I will be happy to do that also.

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t know any reason why I would need to consult with one.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Do you want to raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are going to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. Montgomery. I do.

Mr. Griffin. All right, will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. Montgomery. Leslie Dell [spelling] D-e-l-l Montgomery.

Mr. Griffin. How old are you, Mr. Montgomery?

Mr. Montgomery. 30.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live?

Mr. Montgomery. 9043 Anaconda, here in Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Montgomery. Police officer.

22 Mr. Griffin. How long have you been so employed as a police officer?

Mr. Montgomery. About 9 years.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have a particular rank in the police department?

Mr. Montgomery. Detective.

Mr. Griffin. Are you assigned to a particular bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. Homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been a detective?

Mr. Montgomery. 4 years.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been assigned to homicide and robbery?

Mr. Montgomery. 4 years.

Mr. Griffin. Have you been interviewed by me prior to this deposition?

Mr. Montgomery. That little deal—that earlier?

Mr. Griffin. I talked to you of what? Approximately an hour, hour and a half ago in my office?

Mr. Montgomery. About an hour ago.

Mr. Griffin. And how long did we talk?

Mr. Montgomery. About 15 or 20 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, have you been interviewed by any other members of the Commission’s staff?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. How about FBI agents or other Federal agents?

Mr. Montgomery. I have been interviewed by the FBI; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I believe that when you and I were talking in my office you indicated to me that you worked on Friday and Saturday, and that in particular on Saturday you left work about 9:30 in the evening?

Mr. Montgomery. That’s right.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I have gone over this with you in the interview, but so that we have continuity here, I want to start at this point. Prior to the time that you went home Saturday night, did you hear anything from a police officer, or bystander or newspaperman or what have you, with respect to the proposed movement or a proposed movement of Lee Harvey Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t recall hearing it; no.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear any discussion at all or any rumors, or anything about that?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, what time did you return to work?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, supposed to be there at 8. I was about 10 minutes late, I guess.

Mr. Griffin. Now, before you arrived at the police department on Sunday morning——

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anything about the proposed movement of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Didn’t get any telephone calls with respect to it?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Hear anything over the radio or TV?

Mr. Montgomery. No. [Yes.]

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall now how you got to work that Sunday morning?

Mr. Montgomery. Drove my car.

Mr. Griffin. And did you come in with anybody?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you parked the car?

Mr. Montgomery. Not offhand, I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall entering the building?

Mr. Montgomery. The city hall?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; police department building.

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall what entrance you came through?

Mr. Montgomery. Basement.

Mr. Griffin. Well, there are a number of entrances to the basement.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

23 Mr. Griffin. Do you remember which of the entrances to the basement you came through?

Mr. Montgomery. I was trying to think. The East Commerce Street side, coming down to the basement area.

Mr. Griffin. Now, there are a set of steps——

Mr. Montgomery. I used the steps, not the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. Now, does that refresh your memory in any way in terms of where you parked your automobile?

Mr. Montgomery. I parked in the vicinity of our garage over there, on Young and Central, that is where I always park.

Mr. Griffin. There is a police garage at Young and Central?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; we usually park on the street out there around it.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you walked to work from your car, did you have occasion to go up Commerce Street?

Mr. Montgomery. I came up Commerce.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall, as you came to work, whether or not there were people outside the building or newsmen?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; at that time I didn’t think much of them out there, no.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see any vans parked around there, TV vans?

Mr. Montgomery. Had a big old TV bus looking thing out there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where it was parked?

Mr. Montgomery. It was on Harwood, between Commerce and Main. That would be the east side of Commerce.

Mr. Griffin. I am a little lost on the east side. You mean the east side of Harwood?

Mr. Montgomery. I’m sorry. I meant Harwood. Did I say Commerce?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. East side of Harwood there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you walk up Harwood part way?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. How did you happen to see that on the east side of Harwood?

Mr. Montgomery. Of course, you can see the thing sticking out there, right there in the intersection I guess, about 15-foot from the Commerce curb line there.

And, of course, it had been there for 2 or 3 days prior to that.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what TV station that van was?

Mr. Montgomery. No, I don’t for sure. I can make a wild guess, but it wouldn’t be any good.

Mr. Griffin. Well, are you familiar with a Bell Telephone Co. van that was located on Harwood Street?

Mr. Montgomery. No. I—at different times there was a couple of them there. I didn’t pay that much attention to them, what stations they was with, or anything like that.

Mr. Griffin. When you walked down those steps, do you remember anything about whether there were any TV cables?

Mr. Montgomery. There was cables there; yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you know, there are three or four doors. As you get down to the bottom of the steps one goes into the hallway that leads into the records room, the other one, which almost faces that door and actually faces—leads towards Commerce Street, goes down into a subbasement, and then there is a third door which leads into the engineroom, and that third door is off to the right as you walk down the steps. Are you familiar with those three doors?

Mr. Montgomery. I knew there was one that went down to the engineroom and one that goes to the city hall. I don’t recall the other being there. There very well could be. I just haven’t paid much attention.

Mr. Griffin. As you walked in did you notice whether there were any TV lines?

Mr. Montgomery. Lines?

Mr. Griffin. Cables?

Mr. Montgomery. There were some cables there. I just don’t——

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember the door, or the door they were strung to?

24 Mr. Montgomery. Go to the city hall, there is a double door that goes into the city hall——

Mr. Griffin. That is the one that goes in that hallway?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How about the engineroom door?

Mr. Montgomery. I didn’t pay that much attention to it to say yea or nay.

Mr. Griffin. When you walked in there, where did you go when you got into the hallway?

Mr. Montgomery. Just went to the elevator.

Mr. Griffin. That’s right by the record——

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody that you knew in the area of the basement, other than police officers?

Mr. Montgomery. Anybody I knew?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. Other than police, I think just several civilians behind the desk over there, just the records clerk.

Mr. Griffin. From there did you go to the homicide bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. What time do you estimate you arrived at the homicide bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. Probably about 10 after 8 when I got there.

Mr. Griffin. Who was there when you arrived?

Mr. Montgomery. Oh, Captain Fritz and Dhority, Leavelle and Graves, and I believe Mr. Beck and Brown was there.

Mr. Griffin. All right; did you talk to any of them when you came in?

Mr. Montgomery. Oh, I’m sure I passed the time of day with them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything about any conversation you might have had with them?

Mr. Montgomery. No; nothing outstanding.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you arrived there? What sort of work did you start to do when you arrived at the homicide bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. As soon as I walked in they walked out for coffee.

Mr. Griffin. And you went out for coffee with them?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I stayed there. Of course, I had just gotten there, so, I stayed and answered the telephones while they went out and had coffee.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you continue to answer the phone?

Mr. Montgomery. Of course when they went and drank coffee and came right back; I guess for probably 30 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when they got back?

Mr. Montgomery. When they got back, of course, captain told us at that time that he was going to transfer Oswald later on and I think he said about 10, or something like that; so he sent two of the officers out to get Oswald and bring him down. Wanted to talk to him. I was trying to remember what two went up after him. Anyway, two of them went up and brought him down. I don’t remember which two it was.

Mr. Griffin. When Fritz came out and talked about this, where were you standing?

Mr. Montgomery. What’s that?

Mr. Griffin. When he sent these two men up.

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; told them to go up and get him.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you standing?

Mr. Montgomery. Just outside of the office door.

Mr. Griffin. And Fritz was outside of the office door?

Mr. Montgomery. Stepped up to the door there.

Mr. Griffin. Did he give you any instructions?

Mr. Montgomery. No; didn’t tell me anything in particular right then.

Mr. Griffin. What is your estimate of what time that was?

Mr. Montgomery. Let’s see, approximately around 9 o’clock, somewhere around 9.

Mr. Griffin. When, between the time you arrived and the time Fritz came out, did you talk with anybody about the possible movement of Oswald to the county jail?

25 Mr. Montgomery. I was trying to think. No—let’s see, I don’t believe I did.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any conversation in the office during that period?

Mr. Montgomery. While they were gone out?

Mr. Griffin. While you were there, conversation that you didn’t participate in, necessarily, but other people were talking about the movement of Oswald to the county jail?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Prior to the time that Fritz asked that these two officers bring Oswald downstairs, had you heard anything about the movement of Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. I think right before they told them to go up, said, “We are going to transfer him here around 10 o’clock.” I think is what he said, and that is when he sent a couple of officers to, you know, to get him and bring him down.

Mr. Griffin. What was your understanding as to what was going to be done when Oswald was brought down?

Mr. Montgomery. Going to talk to him a little bit and transfer him, you know, down to the county.

Mr. Griffin. Up to this time, had you heard anything about a threat that may have been made in connection with his transfer?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anything up to that point about how he was going to be moved?

Mr. Montgomery. No; huh-uh.

Mr. Griffin. Did you learn anything about what route might be used?

Mr. Montgomery. No; up until the captain talked to us; no.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember anything else the captain told you at that time other than that they were going to bring him down and get him ready to move?

Mr. Montgomery. No; said we was going to transfer him is all.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do while these two officers were bringing Oswald down to Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. I didn’t do anything outstanding. Must have been just answer the telephone.

Mr. Griffin. Now, were the telephone calls that you were getting the same kind of calls that you had been getting?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Any useful information come out of these calls?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after Oswald was brought down and while he was in Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, when they brought him down we stepped into this office there and there was a—I was standing up there listening to the interview——

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain in Fritz’ office while he interviewed Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who was in Fritz’ office at that time?

Mr. Montgomery. At that time, there was, of course, Captain Fritz, and there was Oswald, and I was there, Leavelle was there and Graves.

Mr. Griffin. Was he in Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. Sir?

Mr. Griffin. Was Graves in Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh; I believe, Dhority, I believe Dhority was in there. I am not sure, but Dhority was another one of our officers. I believe he was in there and, of course, he had Inspector Holmes.

Mr. Griffin. Is he the postal inspector?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes. Inspector Holmes, and I forget the man’s name for—from the Secret Service.

Mr. Griffin. Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. Montgomery. Mr. Sorrels was there, yes; and a—one other man name—was what—who was that——

Mr. Griffin. Were there any FBI agents there?

Mr. Montgomery. I was trying to think if Mr. Bookhout was there, but I can’t remember if he was inside.

26 Mr. Griffin. Do you remember about what Oswald said and what was said to Oswald during that period?

Mr. Montgomery. I remember they asked him why he shot the President, and, of course, he said he didn’t do it.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Montgomery. And, I don’t recall the exact questions. Just asked him several questions there.

Mr. Griffin. How long did this questioning last?

Mr. Montgomery. Seemed like it was about 25 minutes or an hour that he was in there.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Montgomery. Captain Fritz, you know, asking him questions, and he would ask Inspector Holmes or Mr. Sorrels if they would like to ask him a question, and, of course, they would ask him one.

Mr. Griffin. Had you been present at any of the earlier interrogations of Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I wasn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Why was it you happened to be present at this interview?

Mr. Montgomery. I think I just got lost in the office. I was in there talking to the captain when they brought Oswald in, and, of course, the captain said, shut the door there, and some of the officers shut the door.

Mr. Griffin. What did you happen to be talking to Fritz about?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t recall. I know I was in his office when they brought Oswald down there.

Mr. Griffin. You were there for the entire period of the interrogation of Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. That morning; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember during that period anybody coming into the office with respect to the movement of Oswald down to the county jail?

Mr. Montgomery. The chief came in.

Mr. Griffin. How many times do you recall the chief coming in?

Mr. Montgomery. Just recall one time.

Mr. Griffin. How long before the end of the interrogation was it?

Mr. Montgomery. I imagine it was about—well, it was right there at the end, you know, when they was still talking, and the chief came in and wanted to know if we were ready to move him.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear Chief Curry say anything about the movement?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t hear the chief say anything, because he was talking to the captain, and when the chief and the captain talk—they were kind of talking low, and I wasn’t straining my ears to hear, because I know if there was anything they wanted me to do, I know they would tell me.

Mr. Griffin. How big a room is that?

Mr. Montgomery. Not very big.

Mr. Griffin. After this was over, did you hear anything?

Mr. Montgomery. Of course, captain told us what we were going to do.

Mr. Griffin. Where did he tell you what to do?

Mr. Montgomery. In the office there.

Mr. Griffin. Was Oswald there?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. What did he tell you?

Mr. Montgomery. He told us we was going to, you know, transfer him to the county jail.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you how you were going to go?

Mr. Montgomery. Told us we were going to use his car, the captain’s car. Said he had an armored car down there, but they wasn’t going to use it.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you why he wasn’t going to use it?

Mr. Montgomery. I think he said it was too big and bulky.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you what route you were going to take?

Mr. Montgomery. Going to leave the basement, Commerce, Central, right straight up Main.

Mr. Griffin. Were you aware of an earlier plan to take him by way of Elm Street rather than Main?

27 Mr. Montgomery. He said that the armored car was supposed to go up Elm Street and act as a decoy.

Mr. Griffin. What else did he tell you about how he was going to be moved?

Mr. Montgomery. Of course, he said, no; he wanted Graves on one side and Leavelle on the other, and wanted Leavelle to handcuff himself to Oswald there so he wouldn’t get away, and said, “I’ll lead the way out.” And told me, said, “I want you to follow behind Oswald,” which I did.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you what you were supposed to do?

Mr. Montgomery. Huh?

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you what you were supposed to do?

Mr. Montgomery. Make sure he didn’t get away.

Mr. Griffin. Was there some concern that Oswald might try to get away? Was this actually discussed, the possibility that Oswald might try to escape?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t know that there was anything actually discussed about him trying to get away. No.

Mr. Griffin. But you have the feeling that he might try to break away?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t have a feeling that he would try, but he just said to stay there with him and make sure he doesn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Well, did you feel that your reason, your primary reason for being behind him was to prevent him from getting away rather than to prevent somebody from getting to him?

Mr. Montgomery. Keep him from getting away.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody explain to you before you went downstairs what the press setup was going to be in the basement?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, they explained to me—no; because they told me what I was supposed to do, and that is all. They didn’t say anything about the press. I heard the captain say that the big cameras was supposed to be back behind the rail there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anything said about where news personnel was supposed to be?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I remember they said the news media were down there. No one was down there except news media and officers.

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember any preparation that you made up in the office to take Oswald down to the basement?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Tell us about that.

Mr. Montgomery. Well, he put on a black sweater. I think he changed shirts, changed shirts, and put on a black sweater. The captain asked him about something, if he wanted to wear a hat, and he said, “No.” And, of course, they handcuffed him and handcuffed Leavelle to him. Now, other than that that is all I remember about it.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you walked out of the homicide office you went into the hallway on the third floor?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. And there were news people out there, or were there?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t recall seeing any out there.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. How about TV people? Do you recall seeing any TV people in the hallway?

Mr. Montgomery. Didn’t see any there.

Mr. Griffin. All right. You got in the hallway, then did you turn left?

Mr. Montgomery. Turned left; yes.

Mr. Griffin. And you went to the area where it is sort of a foyer near the public elevators?

Mr. Montgomery. No; a prisoner elevator we went down on.

Mr. Griffin. You walked down the hallway to the left, and then you turned——

Mr. Montgomery. Went inside the jail elevator door.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Montgomery. That is only, I guess, about—I guess about 20 foot from the homicide office to that door, or something like that.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have to wait for the elevator?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

28 Mr. Griffin. What did you do?

Mr. Montgomery. I unlocked the door and go inside and locked the door behind you and—on that particular occasion, I believe the elevator was waiting on us.

Mr. Griffin. What happened when you got down in the basement?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, we got off the elevator and walked around in front of the booking desk there. You want me to show you?

Mr. Griffin. Let me get a—I’m going to mark this “Dallas, Texas, March 24, Detective L. D. Montgomery’s deposition. March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5004.” Now, I want to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 5004, which is a diagram of the basement area of the Police and Courts Building. Would you want to explain to us what you did there? Let me give you this pen.

Mr. Montgomery. This is, of course—it shows the jail elevator. This is the elevator we came down on.

Mr. Griffin. Came down in the jail elevator.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh, and of course, we came on the elevator here and I was of the first out of the elevator, because I was last, one of the last on, so, of course, I just stepped back here to the back and waited for all of them to get out, and when they got out I took my position right in behind Oswald. Of course, we came around to the left here [indicating]. Around to this door here [indicating]. Out—went out into the——

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me state for the record that you are indicating on the map that you walked around in front of the counter of the jail office.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. To the jail office doors which lead to the hallway just before you get to the ramps in the basement.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Okay; what happened when you got to that door?

Mr. Montgomery. When we got to the door, Captain Fritz told us to stop. He was going to check one more time the security.

Mr. Griffin. Let me interrupt you here. Before you left the homicide bureau, did anybody notify you that the area was secured?

Mr. Montgomery. The chief—well, they didn’t notify—Captain Fritz told me that—told all of us that he had been advised that it was secure down there and they was ready for us to come down.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you who told him that?

Mr. Montgomery. No; he didn’t say for sure.

Mr. Griffin. Where was Chief Curry at the time that you people got that notice up in the homicide bureau, if you know?

Mr. Montgomery. Now, I don’t know whether—where he was at. He left there. He left our office.

Mr. Griffin. How long before you got that notice did Chief Curry leave?

Mr. Montgomery. How long before we got the notice did he leave?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. Oh, I would say probably 5 or 10 minutes, because I know after he left they went ahead and put the sweater and shirt on Oswald and handcuffed him and everything, so, I imagine at least 5 or 10 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. When you approached the jail office door, what happened?

Mr. Montgomery. Captain Fritz stepped out into this door leading out to the ramp, and, of course, I didn’t—I could not hear who he was talking to or what he said, but just stepped back and told us, “Come on.”

Mr. Griffin. And then what happened?

Mr. Montgomery. Then we walked out the door there to—well, walked out to where—well, where the shooting happened, and we had to stop, because our car wasn’t in position.

Mr. Griffin. Did you actually stop or did you slow up?

Mr. Montgomery. No—well, we may have just slowed up, I guess. We just slowed up because it was only things like just there a second.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you slowed up, did you get a look at the news media?

Mr. Montgomery. Didn’t get much of a look at anything.

Mr. Griffin. Were you able to tell where the TV cameras were located?

29 Mr. Montgomery. I assume they were over here, because all you could see was a glare of lights. You couldn’t see anything.

Mr. Griffin. Now, over to your left as the Main Street ramp comes down, were you able to tell how many rows deep the newspaper people were?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I couldn’t tell about how many rows there were.

Mr. Griffin. All right; now, what happened after you slowed up?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, can I back up here just a second.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. Coming out this door here—[indicating] evidently several news media over in this area here [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are pointing to the area on the map——

Mr. Montgomery. Be the north wall here [indicating]——

Mr. Griffin. Would you place “X’s” on the map where you think you saw newspaper people.

Mr. Montgomery. Looked to me all along right in here [indicating] because as soon as we came out this door, well, the—this bunch here just moved in on us.

Mr. Griffin. I see. You want to—will you put those “X’s”? You want to make a little note, “Newspapermen,” or “news”——

Mr. Montgomery. Like I say, they moved in towards us and had those long-looking microphones and cramming them over there in Oswald’s face.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any police officers at the point where you have marked those “X’s”, holding them back?

Mr. Montgomery. It could have been. I didn’t recognize them. Very well could have been.

Mr. Griffin. Go ahead.

Mr. Montgomery. Like I say, we came out there. They crammed those mikes over there, and we had to slow up for just a second, because they was backing this car into position. It was supposed to have been in position when we got there, but it wasn’t there, so, we had to pause, or slow down for the car to come on back. And, of course, this pause there—Captain Fritz opened the door of the car. He walked up to the door there. I don’t say he opened the door or not. I didn’t see him open the door. He just walked up to it and then I saw a blur or something and I couldn’t tell what it was. I couldn’t tell, and I heard what sounded like a shot.

Mr. Griffin. And——

Mr. Montgomery. And then——

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Montgomery. There was—just fixing to say there was just kind of a roar, you know, people hollering and everything.

Mr. Griffin. Before you heard this shot, did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Montgomery. All these newspaper reporters were hollering, “Why did you shoot the President?” And all that stuff.

Mr. Griffin. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. Back on the record. Now, what did you say happened when you heard the shot?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, Officer Graves was on Oswald’s left and I went around Officer Graves to try to help get—and, of course, when I got around there several officers had hold of him, and I grabbed him around the throat, and was applying a choke hold on him, and, of course, we drug him off to one side over on the cement there on the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. What kind of struggle was he putting up?

Mr. Montgomery. He was putting up a struggle—with so many officers on him, it wasn’t too much, could have—couldn’t have been too much.

First time we put him down it was right here [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Well, don’t put an “X” there. Block that “X” off. Make a circle, or something. You want to put a little arrow to that and say it was Ruby?

Mr. Montgomery. Right here [indicating].

Mr. Griffin. Okay; now, what did you do when you got him down on the cement at that spot?

Mr. Montgomery. As soon as we got him down here we made a—I didn’t—30some of the other officers was making a search for the pistol, and “Blackie” Harrison was standing there and we had—held him down on the ground, and I told Ruby—not Ruby—told “Blackie” Harrison, “Better get him inside the jail office.” At which time we all picked him up and brought him inside the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear “Blackie” say anything either before or after the shooting, or during the struggle?

Mr. Montgomery. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Then you all took him inside the——

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh. Brought him right in here. Laid him down on the floor just inside the door there.

Mr. Griffin. What was he doing at that point? Still putting up a struggle or——

Mr. Montgomery. We laid him down on the floor there. He hollered and said, “You all know me. I’m Jack Ruby.”

Mr. Griffin. Do you know how he happened to yell that?

Mr. Montgomery. Do I know that?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; did you hear anybody holler anything to him at that time?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t remember hearing anything. Hollered—says, “You all know me. I’m Jack Ruby.” And then we let him down there and was looking for the pistol.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Montgomery. I said—I said, “Where is the pistol at?” And Officer—Detective Graves walked up to where I was and said, “I have got the pistol right here.” And pulled it out of his pocket and showed it to me.

Mr. Griffin. Did you search him?

Mr. Montgomery. I did not.

Mr. Griffin. Well, was he searched while he was in there?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, everybody’s hands were going all over him; so, I am sure they were searching.

Mr. Griffin. Were his pockets turned out?

Mr. Montgomery. No; they didn’t actually turn them wrong side out; no, because everything would have fell out.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do at that point?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, after Graves showed us where the pistol was, of course, we knew that he didn’t have it on him then. Then Chief Batchelor walked by here. Chief Batchelor is our assistant chief of police, and I asked if he wanted Ruby—to get Ruby in the jail, and he said, “Yes.”

We then picked up Ruby and came around the corner here to the jail office. I mean the jail elevator there, and they took him upstairs to the jail, and I returned over to where Captain Fritz and Graves, Leavelle were with Oswald.

Mr. Griffin. Who was “they” that took him upstairs?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, “Blackie” Harrison and Archer, McMillon.

Mr. Griffin. Was Clardy with them?

Mr. Montgomery. Clardy was down there if he wasn’t with them—I just don’t know. I know there was four or five of them there that went up, Cutchshaw, Lowery.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after——

Mr. Montgomery. Well, we went back over to where Oswald was. The ambulance came in and we—of course, they picked up the stretcher that he was on and took it to the ambulance.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Montgomery. And several of the detectives got inside the ambulance and went with the ambulance to Parkland. I went over and got in Captain Fritz’ car, Beck and Captain Fritz and Brown and myself went out to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, first got there, of course, we went into the emergency room and they took Oswald back to one of the emergency treatment rooms, and we—or some captain told us to watch the doors, you know, make31 sure no one came in or went out other than doctors and nurses, which we did that until they transferred him up to the operating room.

Mr. Griffin. Now, at Parkland Hospital did you hear any rumors about how Ruby got into the station.

Mr. Montgomery. Well, I don’t know if I heard it out there or where.

Mr. Griffin. Now——

Mr. Montgomery. I guess I did. I probably heard it out at Parkland.

Mr. Griffin. I take it that what you are about to talk about is the first rumor that you heard?

Mr. Montgomery. About the only one I ever heard.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. Montgomery. He just walked down there as one of the officers was backing the car out. There was a car down there that had to back out the Main Street ramp. As they were backing it out, the officers that were lined up here on the ramp right here [indicating] as security, were assisting this car out, because the ramp was coming, you know, the wrong way there. And they were assisting that car out. Evidently went down there then.

Mr. Griffin. There were a number of rumors that were circulating. Did you ever hear the rumor that he got in with the press pass?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I—not press pass.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear any rumor that he got out of a police car?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I hadn’t heard that one.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever hear the rumor that he came in with some TV cameras?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I heard that he picked up one and brought it down there. That’s right.

Mr. Griffin. Now, trying to probe your memory, try to tell us exactly as you can just what you knew, or what rumors you heard at Parkland Hospital and if you don’t really have an accurate memory about it at all, I would like to know when you feel most certain that you knew something about how Ruby got into the jail.

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t recall exactly when I heard the rumor; how he got down there.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain in Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Montgomery. I guess an hour. We were there an hour.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, when you left, of course, you—you knew Ruby, you had known him for some time, so, when you left the jail, of course you knew who the guy was who had shot Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got out to Parkland Hospital, do you remember anybody who was out there asking questions about any other officers, or asking questions about who it was that shot Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I don’t remember anybody asking me anything about it.

Mr. Griffin. Did you hear conversation out at Parkland Hospital that would have identified Ruby as the person who shot Oswald?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t hear anybody out there saying, you know, that Ruby shot Oswald.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to any reserve officers out there at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I don’t believe I did.

Mr. Griffin. As you took Oswald out to Parkland Hospital, was it generally known among all the people who were escorting Oswald to Parkland that Ruby had been the guy?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, of course, I was in the car with Captain Fritz, Beck, and Brown, and as far as any ambulance, where Oswald was, I don’t know if it——

Mr. Griffin. All the people in your car knew it was Ruby?

Mr. Montgomery. No; Captain Fritz didn’t know who it was. They didn’t know each other.

Mr. Griffin. He knew the name of the man who had shot Oswald was Ruby at that time, didn’t he?

32 Mr. Montgomery. Yes, he knew that. We discussed it there in the car that—going out to the hospital—that Jack Ruby shot him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you took Oswald into Parkland Hospital—were there people asking you who shot him?

Mr. Montgomery. No, because I didn’t go in with the body—I say, “the body”—Oswald. Of course when the ambulance—beat us to the hospital.

Mr. Griffin. As you people went into the hospital, were there people asking you who shot——

Mr. Montgomery. People doing a lot of talking. I don’t know if they were asking questions or what, because we weren’t paying a lot of attention to them.

Mr. Griffin. If somebody had asked you who shot Oswald, might you have said Ruby did it?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I wouldn’t have.

Mr. Griffin. I might explain to you what I am getting at. We know that somewhere along the line somebody was out at Parkland Hospital who was a newspaperman at——

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Learned that Ruby was the person. This started a rumor to the effect that his informant must have had something to do with it, and I am really asking you this question to see if it isn’t possible that you guys, as you guys got out to Parkland, somebody had said Ruby was the guy and just by dropping the words, you know, that would spread like wildfire out there.

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t say anything about who it was that done the shooting, out there.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you arrive back at the homicide bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. What time?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. Approximately 1:30.

Mr. Griffin. And when you got back to the homicide bureau, do you remember having any conversation with anybody about how Ruby got into the building?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, no; I didn’t talk to anybody. Just, you know—I guess we was all standing out asking each other how in the world did he get in.

Mr. Griffin. After Ruby shot Oswald on the 24th, did you see Ruby at any time the rest of that day?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; we brought him down for the captain to talk to.

Mr. Griffin. About what time was that?

Mr. Montgomery. Probably around 2, because we had been there at the hospital—I mean office, about 30 minutes, went up and brought him down.

Mr. Griffin. How long did he stay down here?

Mr. Montgomery. I didn’t carry him back, so, I don’t know for sure.

Mr. Griffin. Were you present during any of that interrogation?

Mr. Montgomery. Not with Ruby; no.

Mr. Griffin. At the time you brought him down, did you know how Ruby got into the basement or had you been told?

Mr. Montgomery. I still don’t know how he got down there.

Mr. Griffin. But, had you heard, put it this way, had you heard at that point that Ruby had told somebody how he got into the basement?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t think so. I don’t think I would have been aware of it then.

Mr. Griffin. Did you remain in the office with Ruby and Fritz for any length of time?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Who brought Ruby down with you?

Mr. Montgomery. Let’s see, it was Detectives Boyd and Hall. They sat in on the interrogation there.

Mr. Griffin. When you got up to see Ruby, how was Ruby dressed?

Mr. Montgomery. Up in the jail?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Montgomery. He had on his shirt, and his skivvies.

Mr. Griffin. And what other officers were there?

Mr. Montgomery. I can’t say for sure but it seems like Archer was there,33 but I couldn’t say for sure. I don’t know. There was an FBI agent there, too.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know which agent that was?

Mr. Montgomery. Oh, Agent Hall?

Mr. Griffin. I think—I don’t—you are giving your answer. I think you are right.

Mr. Montgomery. I think that is who it was. I don’t know if they have got an agent named Hall, but seemed to me like that is what it was.

Mr. Griffin. Was Sergeant Dean there?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, there again, I couldn’t say, “yea or nay,” because I don’t recall who was there exactly. I remember an FBI agent there, and Archer—I believe Archer was there. Dean could have been there. He could have been in there.

Mr. Griffin. Is it your best recollection that there was more than one? That there was somebody else in that cell there besides Hall, Ruby, and Archer?

Mr. Montgomery. I believe there was. I believe there was a jail guard there.

Mr. Griffin. Anybody else?

Mr. Montgomery. No, but——

Mr. Griffin. Are you indicating that you just don’t remember?

Mr. Montgomery. I just don’t remember for sure how many was in there.

Mr. Griffin. Was anything said to you by any of the people with Ruby when you went up to the jail to get him?

Mr. Montgomery. No; they didn’t say anything to me.

Mr. Griffin. Did they pass on any information about anything Ruby had said?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. No; did you people talk at all with Ruby as you brought him downstairs?

Mr. Montgomery. I’m sure we did, and I am trying to remember what we said. Let’s see.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, you knew Ruby. Did you try to get him to open up on the way down?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t. Usually when we are bringing a prisoner down I don’t try to talk to them too much. I don’t want to upset anything, you know, any plans he has to talk to him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did Captain Fritz know that you were acquainted with Ruby?

Mr. Montgomery. He knew when I told him; yes.

Mr. Griffin. When did you tell him that?

Mr. Montgomery. As we was going out to Parkland Hospital. He kept saying, “Who is Jack Ruby?” And I told him, “He is a man that runs the Club Vegas out on Oak Lawn.”

Asked me did I know him, I said, “Yes; I used to have a district for about 4 years out there.”

Mr. Griffin. Did you feel that if you would talk to Ruby, that Ruby might have been willing to give you any information?

Mr. Montgomery. No; because Ruby and I, first of all, weren’t that close or anything. As a matter of fact, I don’t guess he even remembers my name or face, either.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Montgomery. But he was used to seeing officers come in his place. I don’t imagine he would remember one any more than others—another.

Mr. Griffin. Did any of the officers up there at the jail cell with Ruby when you went up there to get him come down on the elevator with you?

Mr. Montgomery. I believe Hall, FBI Agent Hall.

Mr. Griffin. And did Hall go into Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. Now, our Detective Hall rather than Agent Hall did. I just don’t know, because I couldn’t say for sure.

Mr. Griffin. Who do you remember being in Fritz’ office the first time, or—on this occasion when Ruby was brought down by you?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, I know that Captain Fritz, Ruby, and, of course, Detectives Hall and Boyd—Detective M. G. Hall. I know they were there for sure, and who else was there I couldn’t swear, because I just saw them34 walk up to the door to Captain Fritz’ office. And they went in, of course, the blinds were drawn in Fritz’ office, so, I couldn’t see who was in there.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do after they took Ruby into Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, I sat down and answered some more of them phone calls.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you do that?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t recall anything outstanding from then on. I know I didn’t get off until, have to look at my notebook again. Yes; seemed to me about 10.

Mr. Griffin. Did you take Ruby back upstairs?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t take him back upstairs.

Mr. Griffin. No?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t take him back upstairs.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him taken back upstairs?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I, evidently, was in the squad room at the time he was taken back.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Ruby brought back down a second time?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t, not that day; no.

Mr. Griffin. Were you in the homicide bureau the entire time?

Mr. Montgomery. In and out.

Mr. Griffin. Were you out for any period as long as 10 or 15 minutes?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, I talked to one witness back for, I guess for about 20 or 30 minutes. The way our office is set up they could have carried him in and taken him back out without some of them sitting back in the squad room ever seeing him come in or go out.

Mr. Griffin. This first occasion when you brought Ruby down, was Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service in Fritz’ office?

Mr. Montgomery. I couldn’t say for sure, because those blinds were drawn to the captain’s office, and I couldn’t see who all was in there. I walked up to the door. I could see Captain Fritz, and Hall and Boyd stepped on inside.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Go ahead.

Mr. Montgomery. At 10:30—I left at 10:30 Sunday night.

Mr. Griffin. Prior to 10:30, I take it you answered; you didn’t see Ruby again?

Mr. Montgomery. Not that Sunday; no.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you talk—did you see Archer again on that Sunday?

Mr. Montgomery. Archer and them, let’s see, were in our office, when we got back from the hospital—Archer and Harrison, Cutchshaw and Lowery were all in the office when we got back.

Mr. Griffin. Was there any discussion in there about how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. Montgomery. I think there was some—somebody say, “How did he get down here?”

Mr. Griffin. And what was said?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, of course, nobody knew for sure. Said, “Well, no telling how he got in.”

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Archer after that other than when you saw him up in the jail cell?

Mr. Montgomery. Not that day. I don’t believe Archer was in our office. I know Harrison and Cutchshaw and Lowery were in there, and McMillon was upstairs with Archer, because I remember now in the scuffle down here in apprehending Jack Ruby, McMillon lost his hat, and, of course, I thought it was Ruby’s hat, so, I was hanging onto it, you know, and on the way to Parkland I looked inside and T. D. McMillon’s initials were in it, so, upon our arrival back from Parkland Hospital to the office, I went down to McMillon’s office and left his hat.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Harrison at all about how Ruby got in, Blackie Harrison?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t believe I did.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Lowery at all about it?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, like I say, we were all back there in that squad35 room, and somebody said, “How did he get down there?” And I don’t know who said—well, I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. Didn’t Lowery say at that point that he thought Ruby pushed a TV camera in?

Mr. Montgomery. I couldn’t swear that he did or didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you, Cutchshaw, Lowery, and Harrison remain in the homicide office?

Mr. Montgomery. Didn’t stay there but just a few minutes. I know when we left they were in there writing out a report of some kind. Didn’t even ask them what they was writing. Sitting there writing something. Anyway, after I talked to them just as—just a second, I went back to where Captain Fritz was, and that was when they sent us back upstairs to get Ruby.

Mr. Griffin. Hall, Harrison, Cutchshaw and Lowery are all from the juvenile bureau?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you talk with Dean at all on Sunday after the——

Mr. Montgomery. Gene?

Mr. Griffin. Dean. Officer Dean.

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Officer McMillon at all after the shooting?

Mr. Montgomery. Seemed like I talked to him later on that night and told him about his hat.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall him telling you anything about how Ruby got in?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you knew that McMillon had been up there in this jail cell with Ruby?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ask him anything about what Ruby was saying?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did he tell you anything about what Ruby was saying?

Mr. Montgomery. No.

Mr. Griffin. How about Archer? Did you see him?

Mr. Montgomery. I don’t believe—I don’t recall seeing Archer any more after they left the——

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. Montgomery. Jail.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. I want you to take the pen back from me.

Mr. Montgomery. All right.

Mr. Griffin. And I want to mark these two documents for identification.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. And I am going to mark this one Exhibit 5005, and the second one Exhibit 5006.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. And each of them, “Dallas, Texas, Detective Montgomery’s deposition. 3-24-64”. These are copies of FBI reports?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. And they represent, of course——

Mr. Montgomery. Their interview with me.

Mr. Griffin. Their interview with you; yes. Now, I am going to ask you to look at 5005. This purports to be an interview that was made on December 4, 1963.

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. By James Kennedy and Leo Robertson of the——

Mr. Montgomery. With who?

Mr. Griffin. With you.

Mr. Montgomery. I didn’t talk to no two. I talked to one. I talked to Mr. Bookhout and one other agent is all. Let’s see. Maybe I had better read this before I start talking. Let’s see.

Mr. Griffin. Look it over and tell me if you remember that interview?

Mr. Montgomery. “Stated they had known Ruby for several years.” That must mean “he.”

Mr. Griffin. Tell you what. Let’s take a break here and let Officer Montgomery36 read this over, and then I want to know whether you feel that there should be any additions or corrections made in it.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Griffin. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5005 and 5006. Have you had a chance to look those over, Mr. Montgomery?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Is there anything you want to add to those statements that you haven’t told us already?

Mr. Montgomery. No; not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Do you want to make any corrections in those statements, in light of what you have said today?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, on this one right here, Mr. Griffin, it said, “He states they had known Ruby for several years.” I don’t know who “they” would be. See on that second paragraph where it says, “He stated they——”

Mr. Griffin. You want to change that to “he”?

Mr. Montgomery. Uh-huh. That is the only thing I see in there.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Let me look it over for just a second. I notice in here that you stated that you felt that you hadn’t seen Ruby for at least 2 years prior to the time of the shooting.

Mr. Montgomery. That is what I was thinking about. Anywhere from a year, year and a half, to 2 years.

Mr. Griffin. Your best recollection is for a year, or year and a half?

Mr. Montgomery. Probably was a year and a half. My partner—after I gave that to the agent there, this partner advised me that one night we were driving down Commerce Street and Jack pulled up beside of us and spoke to us in his car. I don’t recall seeing him, but my partner told me he—that we had seen him there. That shouldn’t have been too long before all this happened. I guess two or three——

Mr. Griffin. Who was your partner that told you that?

Mr. Montgomery. It was Mr. Johnson.

Mr. Griffin. What’s his first name?

Mr. Montgomery. Marvin Johnson, but I don’t recall seeing Ruby then, at that time.

Mr. Griffin. You stated in here, I think it is 5006—at least it’s reported that as you “brought Oswald down into the jail area the two officers with Oswald between them and Montgomery hesitated before going into this corridor while Capt. J. W. Fritz checked with Chief——to see if the area was clear.” Agent Bookhout hasn’t indicated here what chief that was. Are you able to fill in that blank?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, actually what that was was I told him, “Chief,” say who did the captain talk to when he stepped out that door. I couldn’t see. I just told him I thought it was the chief. I didn’t know. I didn’t—maybe it wasn’t even a chief that he talked to. It was some lieutenant out there that told him, that is why I say at that particular time I was hesitant on this. This “chief” business then.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have anything else that you want to tell us that we haven’t already covered that you think might be of use to the Commission?

Mr. Montgomery. Oh, well, I don’t know of anything. Looks like you all have covered it pretty well, and, of course, these reports here have it, too. One thing they say is not in here either. It is not—I haven’t told you yet, is when we had Ruby down on the floor inside the jail office there, that while we had him down and was holding him on the floor there he said he hoped he killed the s.o.b.

Mr. Griffin. You heard him say that?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; of course, there were other officers that heard it, too. We was all standing right there. That is the one thing that wasn’t in this report here. I don’t recall seeing it, do you?

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you testify in the Jack Ruby trial?

Mr. Montgomery. No; I never did testify.

Mr. Griffin. I think maybe one last thing. If you would look over this map, now, and if you feel that the marks that we’ve put on here are accurate on the basis of what we have done before, I would like you to sign it.

37 Mr. Montgomery. Right here, let me put “news media,” right below that so that I will know as well as someone else might know.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Sign it, if you would.

Mr. Montgomery. Over here?

Mr. Griffin. That would be fine.

Mr. Montgomery. You want me to date it or anything?

Mr. Griffin. No; that’s all right. We have got it on the record here. “The reporter will say witness signs an exhibit.”

All right. Okay. That concludes our interview, and thank you.

The testimony of Thomas Donald McMillon was taken at 10:30 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Griffin. How are you? Sit down over here, Tom. I want to explain to you what we are doing here. Like I said, my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the advisory staff to the General Counsel of the President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission has been set up by virtue of an order of President Johnson, Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and also under Joint Resolution of Congress 137. Pursuant to these documents, there have been a series of rules of procedure enacted, and pursuant to those rules of procedure, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from Officer McMillon here. I want to say initially that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, report upon the facts that relate to the assassination of President Kennedy, also, of course, the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. As far as you are concerned, Mr. McMillon, we are primarily concerned here with the death of Oswald; although, if there is any other information that you have that you think would be pertinent to this inquiry, we would certainly appreciate your coming forward with it. Now, we have asked you to come here today through a general request, which was made by the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, addressed in a letter to Chief Curry. Actually, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice of any appearance for this purpose, and, however, there is also a provision that you may waive this written notice if you want to, and I ask you right now if you would prefer to have us give you a written notice.

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. Or do you want to waive it?

Mr. McMillon. No; I will waive that. It is okay.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are also permitted to be represented by counsel here, and I assume, since you haven’t come with an attorney, that it is your desire not to have one, but if you do desire one, tell me at this point. Tell me.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t feel like I need an attorney here present now, but I want to reserve the right to have counsel if I feel like I need it.

Mr. Griffin. Certainly you have that right at that time, and I mean to cover that. I also mean to tell you that this is not—we are not involved in a trial, we have no authority to prosecute anybody for any crime. All of that is to be handled by the State of Texas. The only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is perjury, and it is very, very important that we find out all of the facts that surround this and find them out truthfully. This investigation is more important, I think, than anybody can really realize to the national security, and if there is any way that I can impress upon you the importance of this, that our interest is getting the truth for this purpose and our interest is not in going out and trying to put anybody in jail or anything like that.

Mr. McMillon. All right.

38 Mr. Griffin. If you are willing to be sworn to testify, I would appreciate your raising your right hand.

Mr. McMillon. Right.

Mr. Griffin. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. McMillon. I do.

Mr. Griffin. Will you give us your full name?

Mr. McMillon. Thomas Donald McMillon. It is [spelling] M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n.

Mr. Griffin. When were you born?

Mr. McMillon. One April 1935.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live now?

Mr. McMillon. 4929 Reiger Street, Apartment 109.

Mr. Griffin. Is that Dallas?

Mr. McMillon. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. All right. What is your occupation?

Mr. McMillon. I am a police officer for the city of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Griffin. Are you in any particular division?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; I am a detective assigned to the auto theft investigation bureau.

Mr. Griffin. And do you have any particular rank?

Mr. McMillon. Detective.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been in the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMillon. Nearly 11 months.

Mr. Griffin. Have you been in any other bureaus?

Mr. McMillon. Patrol division prior to that.

Mr. Griffin. And when you were in the patrol division, whom did you work under?

Mr. McMillon. My last captain of patrol was Capt. C. E. Talbert, I believe it is, Talbert.

Mr. Griffin. Talbert. And, at that time, whose direct supervision were you under?

Mr. McMillon. My last sergeant was Sgt. H. A. Amos.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever work under Sergeant Dean?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. When did you work under Sergeant Dean?

Mr. McMillon. The exact dates, I don’t recall, but I did work the downtown area while he was the supervisor in that area, in that zone.

Mr. Griffin. I see. And in connection with that employment, did you become acquainted with Jack Ruby?

Mr. McMillon. I have seen Jack in the downtown area. I believe that I have probably answered calls to this Carousel Club down here. I knew him prior to that, not personally, but I had answered calls at the Vegas Club when he ran that.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Do you recall when it was that you worked out at the Vegas Club area?

Mr. McMillon. Some in 1957 and probably 1958. I am not exactly sure on those dates, but it should have been in that time.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know Eva Grant when you were out there in the Vegas Club area?

Mr. McMillon. I have seen her. I don’t know her personally. I believe I have seen her in the Vegas Club.

Mr. Griffin. How about Pauline Hall?

Mr. McMillon. No. I don’t know Pauline Hall.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you worked the downtown area, did you know George Senator?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know George Senator.

Mr. Griffin. Well, did you know the bartender at the Carousel Club?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. When was the last time that you worked the downtown area?

Mr. McMillon. Most all of my time in patrol was spent, or the majority of it, was spent in the downtown area. I believe about 8 or 9 or maybe 10 months before I was promoted to a detective, I worked an area of the downtown—one39 of the downtown districts. I believe in August of 1962, the first of August 1962, I went to what we refer to kindly of a South Dallas beat. Actually, it is on the edge of downtown.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. McMillon. And most of my time spent on patrol was downtown or in the downtown area or near by.

Mr. Griffin. Were you on duty Friday, November 22?

Mr. McMillon. No, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Where were you at the time you learned that President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. McMillon. Home, in bed, asleep.

Mr. Griffin. Well, you weren’t sleeping. Did somebody wake you up to tell you that the President had been shot? Did somebody wake you up?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. Phone call.

Mr. Griffin. Who called you?

Mr. McMillon. A friend of mine did.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do?

Mr. McMillon. He came to my house.

Mr. Griffin. Who was that?

Mr. McMillon. Mickey Fuller.

Mr. Griffin. Did you stay home all day Friday?

Mr. McMillon. Except probably maybe to go out to eat. I was there most of the day.

Mr. Griffin. Are you married?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. Did you report—did you report for work on Friday?

Mr. McMillon. No, no.

Mr. Griffin. Was that your regular day off?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. How about Saturday?

Mr. McMillon. I reported at 7 a.m. Saturday.

Mr. Griffin. Did you go down to the police department at any time on Friday?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall, did you visit the scene, did you visit the School Book Depository or any particular places on the 22d, other than your home, that you can recall?

Mr. McMillon. No; I didn’t go down near that Depository——

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. McMillon. Or down near the police station or anything.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Did you see anything on the 22d that might be of value to the Commission?

Mr. McMillon. The only thing that I saw was what events that I saw on television.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on the 23d, when you arrived at work, where did you go?

Mr. McMillon. To the auto theft bureau.

Mr. Griffin. Did you work in the auto theft bureau all day Saturday?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; until 3 p.m.

Mr. Griffin. What I mean to say is, did you go out of the building?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall if I did or not. Maybe I might have gone out for coffee. It seemed to me like I had lunch in the locker room that day. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Is that on the third floor of the police department building?

Mr. McMillon. The locker room?

Mr. Griffin. No, no; the auto theft bureau.

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody in the police department that day who was—who you recognized as not being a police officer or a newsman or somebody who was there visiting your department on official business?

Mr. McMillon. Well, I don’t know how to answer that. There were a lot of people there. Some of them were in and out. People at first started out40 during that day coming to our office to get automobiles released from the pound.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. People in and out like that, and I saw a number of people that I didn’t know, and I didn’t see identification on them and didn’t recognize them as probably being newsmen or with the press or some news media.

Mr. Griffin. Was your office in the auto theft bureau used by the news people for any purposes?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. They used our phones quite often.

Mr. Griffin. Did this cause you problems?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give some idea of what kind of problems these news people were causing you?

Mr. McMillon. Well, our phones were pretty well tied up. There seemed to be quite a commotion in and around and about the office. It made it difficult to work.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Did you people attempt to make any effort to get these news people out?

Mr. McMillon. We were cooperative with them. If they asked to use a phone and if there was a phone available, we extended them every courtesy along that line.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Did you see Jack Ruby at any time on Friday or Saturday?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. And, as I understand, you left work on Saturday about 3 in the afternoon?

Mr. McMillon. Right.

Mr. Griffin. When you left work on Saturday, did you have any idea that Lee Harvey Oswald would be moved from the county jail the next day—to the county jail the next day?

Mr. McMillon. No. I may or may not have heard any rumors, I don’t remember, but I didn’t know when he would be moved. I had heard some rumors, I believe, but I didn’t know when he would be moved.

Mr. Griffin. After work that night, did you have any occasion to be around the police department?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do Saturday night?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall. The best I remember, it seemed to me like I stayed home and watched television. I may have gone out, but I think I stayed home.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you report for work on Sunday morning?

Mr. McMillon. 7 a.m.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where you parked your car Sunday morning?

Mr. McMillon. I am sure it is the same parking lot that I always park on. I park on a pay lot at the corner of Main and Pearl.

Mr. Griffin. When you parked, which corner did you park on?

Mr. McMillon. It would be the southeast corner of Main and Pearl.

Mr. Griffin. That is actually between Main and Commerce, isn’t it?

Mr. McMillon. Huh-uh. Well, you might consider it that way. Can I use some paper here to show you what I mean?

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Take this.

Mr. McMillon. Okay. This would be Pearl Expressway, the directions, your north and south.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Main Street running—okay. This was actually the way the streets were running.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Main running east and west, Commerce running east and west, and, of course, here is Pearl going south.

Mr. Griffin. All right. On here, will you mark a mark?

Mr. McMillon. Right over here, right in here is where I parked my car, this parking lot.

41 Mr. Griffin. Okay. Where you just placed an “X”? I am going to mark this, if I can, mark this “Dallas, Tex., Detective T. D. McMillon.” That is [spelling] M-i-l-l-o-n, right?

Mr. McMillon. Right.

Mr. Griffin. 3-25-64, Exhibit 5015. At the time you arrived for work, was there a police officer stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall whether there was or wasn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Now, from that parking lot, Mr. McMillon, how did you get into the police department? Did you walk down Main or Commerce?

Mr. McMillon. Down Main.

Mr. Griffin. And did you—how did you go, in the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMillon. No. I probably took the first floor elevator, elevator, first floor. I usually do. That particular day, I recall I walked down this ramp, but I don’t recall whether I took the steps and went up to the first floor and went up the elevator. That is the way I usually go in.

Mr. Griffin. You go into the city hall, as opposed to the municipal building, there is a set of steps going up into the police building?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And then, when you arrived, were there any people congregated around the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMillon. Not that I recall. I don’t know if there was or not. I don’t recall there being any there.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any other cars parked in the parking lot when you arrived?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; I am sure there was. I don’t know whose or which ones.

Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize Jack Ruby’s car?

Mr. McMillon. I haven’t seen Jack’s car.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do when you got up to the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know. Probably the first thing I did, probably take my coat off and go get a cup of coffee, bring it back out of the machine. That is my normal habit or routine.

Mr. Griffin. Is there a machine up on the third floor?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Is it just in the auto theft bureau or is it accessible?

Mr. McMillon. No. There is a little lounge that is accessible to the public.

Mr. Griffin. And do the police officers normally take a coffee break in there?

Mr. McMillon. Not normally, but you may occasionally see some in there.

Mr. Griffin. Where do the police officers normally go?

Mr. McMillon. Martin’s or the Majestic. Of course, Martin’s wouldn’t be open on Sunday, I don’t think. Wherever you can go. You might possibly go to the locker room, if you wanted to. There is a coffee machine down there.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Do you remember what you did up until the time that you were asked to go down into the basement?

Mr. McMillon. I tried to work on some of my cases, the best I could. I don’t remember whether I was trying to contact some complainants by phone or whether I had checked some prisoners out of the jail, was working out on prisoners, exactly what I was doing. I know I was working in the office when Lieutenant Smart came through and said, “Don’t anybody leave.”

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember any of the cases that you worked on that day?

Mr. McMillon. Huh-uh.

Mr. Griffin. Were you busy answering telephone calls from people?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; I answered some phone calls from people. Yes, sir; I sure did.

Mr. Griffin. Did you get any phone calls in connection with the murder of the President?

Mr. McMillon. Not that I recall.

Mr. Griffin. You didn’t get any of these crank calls?

Mr. McMillon. No; I didn’t take any crank calls. I sure didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. When you got up there, what other officers were on duty in the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMillon. Well, now, let’s see. I recall I was on duty, Lieutenant Smart, Detective Clardy. That is my partner. Detective Rivers was working at the42 desk, what we call the desk. I was working in the auto theft. He is the one that was making out the assignments.

Mr. Griffin. Was it Clardy?

Mr. McMillon. No; it wasn’t Clardy.

Mr. Griffin. Who was it?

Mr. McMillon. Ed Rivers. Archer and Greeson were on duty.

Mr. Griffin. How do you spell that?

Mr. McMillon. I believe that boy spells it [spelling] G-r-e-e-s-o-n, and then I don’t recall if they were there, but they were on duty this day. Detective Watson, Detective Dawson, and I don’t remember who the others were.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you arrived for duty, did you know that Jack Ruby was—did you know that Lee Oswald might be moved that day?

Mr. McMillon. No. I personally felt that he might, but I didn’t know that he would.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you arrived for duty, at any time after you arrived and before Oswald was shot, did you hear that someone had called during the night and threatened to get Oswald?

Mr. McMillon. No; not that I recall.

Mr. Griffin. Did you people in the auto theft bureau, did you talk about the expected movement of Oswald that day?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; the best I remember, we probably did, theories and opinions, probably. I don’t recall how the conversation went.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether at any time prior to the time that Lieutenant Smart asked you to go downstairs there was any discussion as to when Ruby—Oswald would be moved?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall any discussions. After he told us that, I still continued busy at something, and I remember that I was the last one out of the office when we all started to leave to go down there.

Mr. Griffin. When you arrived down in the office, when you walked out of your office, did you see any police officers in the hall that you recognized?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who did you see out there?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall who they were. You are speaking of the third floor?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, yes.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall who they were. I would have known most of those men, but I recall seeing some that I recognized. Right now, I don’t recall who they were, but I remember seeing them and recognizing them.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember who you went down on the elevator with?

Mr. McMillon. I believe most of them were the men from my office and some more, the best I remember.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if you went down with men from the other bureaus?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; there probably were some detectives from the other bureaus. I don’t recall who they were now.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, was there anybody in charge of this general movement going downstairs, was there one man going around rounding everybody up?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know. I felt like I was under the supervision of Lieutenant Smart until I later learned that there was a man ranking to him down there who was giving orders.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got downstairs, where did you go?

Mr. McMillon. From the—I got off of the elevator and walked straight through two swinging doors and just outside of the jail office.

Mr. Griffin. So you were between the swinging doors and the ramp?

Mr. McMillon. Right.

Mr. Griffin. Now, were all of the police officers sort of out there waiting or were they spread out on both sides of those swinging doors?

Mr. McMillon. Well, we later had spread out on both sides of the doors.

Mr. Griffin. Well, at the time that you came down, was there a general meeting held outside of the swinging doors?

43 Mr. McMillon. There seemed to be to me, and a few minutes later, Captain Jones told us what he wanted done.

Mr. Griffin. I see. But when you congregated outside of those swinging doors, it was everybody sort of milling around, nobody giving instructions?

Mr. McMillon. It was right at first.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see W. J. Harrison down there when you were outside of the swinging doors?

Mr. McMillon. At what point?

Mr. Griffin. At that point.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall if I saw him at that point or not, but I saw him down there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall anybody that you saw down there as you congregated?

Mr. McMillon. When we first arrived down there?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know who all was down there. I know we were from the auto theft bureau. I recall Captain Jones being there.

Mr. Griffin. Now, from the time that you got down there and taking the time that you were milling around in front of the swinging doors, how long was it from then until Lee Oswald was brought down?

Mr. McMillon. I would say about 20 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. Had the armored car been brought in?

Mr. McMillon. I have to assume that the armored car was in the position that it was, since I have since learned what I have. As I recall, I never did see the armored car.

Mr. Griffin. You just don’t have any recollection of seeing it at all that day?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t remember seeing that armored car at all. I may have, but I sure don’t remember.

Mr. Griffin. Were the TV cameras moved while you were down there?

Mr. McMillon. There was some TV cameras placed in position while we were there.

Mr. Griffin. Were they moved out of one position to another while you were there?

Mr. McMillon. I think I know what you mean. We had those people move back over kind of in the mouthway to this deal, which would have been in my position that I finally took up, just moments before the shooting, the position that I was in then. Anyway, we had moved or had instructed those people to move back over, which would have been to my right. I will correct that. Left. This is my left hand.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Now, let me ask you this. When you walked—went down there and were waiting before anybody gave you any instructions, did you see a TV camera on the jail office side of the railing, anywhere between the railing and the jail office?

Mr. McMillon. It seems to me like I did, but I can’t be sure.

Mr. Griffin. Well, do you remember whether a camera was moved from a position somewhere near the swinging doors back away across the ramp and behind the railing?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; it seems to me like I do, but I wasn’t paying any attention, because it seemed to me like there was cameras everywhere.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, there finally came a time when somebody gave you some instructions?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who was that?

Mr. McMillon. Captain Jones, and, of course, Lieutenant Smart was assisting him, but Captain Jones explained to us that, when they brought the prisoner out, that he wanted two lines formed and we were to keep these two lines formed, you know, a barrier on either side of them, kind of an aisle. We were kind of to make an aisle for them to walk through, and when they came down this aisle, we were to keep this line intact and move along with them until the man was placed in the car.

Mr. Griffin. So you were sort of supposed to pick him up as a flanker?

44 Mr. McMillon. That was my understanding.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, did—were you assigned to any position, to take up any particular position?

Mr. McMillon. No; the man told us what he wanted and everybody just set it up.

Mr. Griffin. Now, was Detective Harrison or Blackie Harrison, was he present when Jones gave these instructions?

Mr. McMillon. I am sure that he was. I don’t know if he was or not.

Mr. Griffin. And how about Detective L. D. Miller, was he present at that time?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know at what point Miller had got there. I am sure that he was, because Miller had taken up the position. When we set up, Miller had taken up the position on my right.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain—well, let me ask you this: After Jones finished giving instructions, where did you go?

Mr. McMillon. I was there in that area, and I took my position outside of the jail office door there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you immediately take up the position that you had when Oswald was shot or did you move around?

Mr. McMillon. No; I believe I had a different position there for a minute, and I saw that the space over here needed another officer in it, so I got over there.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain in that position before Oswald came down?

Mr. McMillon. It seemed to me like about 10 minutes. I am not sure of the time. It was possibly somewhere in that neighborhood.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, was Detective Miller in his position when you came—when you took your position, took up your position?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall if he was already in position or if he moved in after I did.

Mr. Griffin. How much of the time that you were in your position would be your best estimate that Miller was also there?

Mr. McMillon. Five to 10 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see Miller leave that position at any time?

Mr. McMillon. If he did, I don’t remember it.

Mr. Griffin. Now, Miller was on your right, is that correct?

Mr. McMillon. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Now, would you—I am going to mark this map first of all. This is a diagram of the jail basement area, and I am going to write on here, “Dallas, Texas, Detective T. D. McMillon, 3-27-64, Exhibit 5016.” Now, let me see if we can get a place where you can—let me clear this off. Now, would you take this and take that pencil and would you mark on there where you were standing when you took up what you call your position?

Mr. McMillon. These are the swinging doors that we come out of, right?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; they are.

Mr. McMillon. Right along in here.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you write out in here, put an arrow or something and put your name?

Mr. McMillon. The full name or just the initials?

Mr. Griffin. Just something. The “T. D.” That is all right. Now, would you put down where Miller was standing?

Mr. McMillon. Right along in here.

Mr. Griffin. You want to do something to mark that that is Miller?

Mr. McMillon. Okay.

Mr. Griffin. Okay; was there anybody on your left?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Who was that?

Mr. McMillon. I believe it was Detective Watson.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. McMillon. Right along in here somewhere.

Mr. Griffin. How is it that you—you seem to have a better recollection of Miller than Watson, is that correct?

45 Mr. McMillon. There was some more people down this line. I believe I talked to Miller—I don’t know what we talked about—just prior to the shooting. I know that Watson was along there and “Blackie” Harrison, was along over this way.

Mr. Griffin. This is the position, say, 10 minutes before Oswald was brought down, is that right, 5 or 10 minutes before?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Did you see Rio Pierce or Sam Pierce’s car pull out?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And did you see anybody get out of the car?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; seemed to me like a sergeant got out of that car.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see anybody attempt to clear away the crowd?

Mr. McMillon. I believe that is what this sergeant was doing.

Mr. Griffin. Now, as you looked over there at the car, how many lines deep, if there was more than one line, were the news people across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know. Those people were right along in this area along in here.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you are indicating the area behind the railing——

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Or just in front of it?

Mr. McMillon. Part of them were behind this railing and some of them were over in here and along in here like that.

Mr. Griffin. So most of the news people were strung out along the railing extending toward the armored car, is that right, or toward the Commerce Street ramp?

Mr. McMillon. It seemed to me like that most of them was in an area something similar to this.

Mr. Griffin. All right. You want to put some sort of a mark where they were?

Mr. McMillon. It seemed to me like they were in there. Of course, there were some along in here. Of course, they weren’t orderly.

Mr. Griffin. As they never are. Would you write in there “News Media” or something to that effect? Okay. That has been marked “Press.” Now, can you describe how thickly the people were congregated from the west wall of the Main Street ramp across?

Mr. McMillon. This is the west wall?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir; how thickly were they congregated across to the railing?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know, but there were some officers lined up across this way to some point.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember where any of those officers were?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; I think “Blackie” Harrison was along in here. I don’t remember who else was along in here.

Mr. Griffin. Would you put a mark where Harrison was?

Mr. McMillon. Seems to me like he was along in here.

Mr. Griffin. Would you put his name where Harrison was?

Mr. McMillon. What did you say his initials are?

Mr. Griffin. W. J.

Mr. McMillon. W. J.

Mr. Griffin. Now, you put an “X” there where you think Harrison was?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. He was along in here. He was on out past this deal, past this.

Mr. Griffin. Did you see him there, oh, 5 minutes before Oswald was brought down?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall. I am sure that he was.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any recollection as to whether or not he took up a position and generally held it in the same spot?

Mr. McMillon. I am sure that he did because we had the line. It seemed to me like it was a pretty orderly line of officers, in other words, seemed to be pretty straight, in other words, this flank.

46 Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, when Rio Pierce’s car went up the ramp, what did you see happen?

Mr. McMillon. Well, they had the red lights on.

Mr. Griffin. And how far did you see him go up the ramp?

Mr. McMillon. Well, I couldn’t see very far. I could see him right here just starting up the deal, swinging up this way and starting up this way. I can see him go up the ramp, but standing here, you can’t see up very far.

Mr. Griffin. Did you move out at all to see the car go?

Mr. McMillon. No. I may have done like that to see who it was.

Mr. Griffin. Looked around the corner?

Mr. McMillon. But you can’t see from there up the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. I see. Now, between the time that Pierce’s car went out and Oswald was brought down, where did you look, what were you looking at?

Mr. McMillon. I was looking straight ahead, and I think I heard somebody say, “Here he comes,” and naturally you become a little bit more attentive or a little bit more rigid, I will say, but they hadn’t left very long before they started bringing Oswald out.

Mr. Griffin. Now, is it your understanding that you believed that the three men, who you have marked here, Miller, you and——

Mr. McMillon. Watson.

Mr. Griffin. Watson were supposed, as Oswald got to them, to move out sort of on the flank and move with them to the armored car?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, just like, the way I had done, you know, just kind of make, say, a left face and the ones on that side were doing the same thing, and he would be walking between us. That——

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. McMillon. That was my understanding.

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember anybody specifically telling you this?

Mr. McMillon. Captain Jones told us, you know, to form two lines on both sides of him, form the barrier. The exact wording, I don’t know, but form the barrier until they got the man in the car, and keep those people away from him.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you see anybody come down into the basement at any time while you were down there and ask if everything was all ready?

Mr. McMillon. Come down that ramp?

Mr. Griffin. No, no. Did anyone come down into the basement area to determine if things were set up properly?

Mr. McMillon. Well, the fact of what I know, the man that I heard came right by me. I don’t know if he was speaking directly to me or not, but I answered, “Yes, sir,” something to that effect. Still don’t know if he was speaking directly to me or not, but it was Captain Fritz coming out of the jail office followed by Leavelle, Graves, and Oswald.

Mr. Griffin. When Captain Fritz spoke in your direction, that was the first time, was it, that anybody that you can recall inquired as to whether things were all set up?

Mr. McMillon. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when Fritz—when Oswald emerged from that door, what did Watson do?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know.

Mr. Griffin. What did you do?

Mr. McMillon. When Oswald came out of the door?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Well, I was standing kind of like this.

Mr. Griffin. You are standing——

Mr. McMillon. Fritz comes right on by me.

Mr. Griffin. You are standing with your back to the wall?

Mr. McMillon. Right. They come out of the deal, right by me. Captain Fritz, he had gone on by. Leavelle, he had gotten over to me. I glanced over here.

Mr. Griffin. You glanced to your right?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. They had gotten slightly past me. I started pulling47 out of my part of the barrier when they had gotten past. L. D. Montgomery, detective in Homicide, was following Oswald and the two detectives.

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you remember why it was that you waited until Oswald got ahead of you until you moved out?

Mr. McMillon. I imagine that it was because there was still some people who I recognized as part of his escort from the homicide bureau. Montgomery, say for instance, he was guarding the rear of Oswald.

Mr. Griffin. Well, was it your understanding that you were supposed to be alongside of Oswald or were you supposed to wait until Oswald got past you? Did you have any understanding?

Mr. McMillon. My understanding was that, as they came on out and got by us, we would form the two lines and keep the two lines intact until he was placed in the car.

Mr. Griffin. Was it your understanding——

Mr. McMillon. Of course, I had to look to see if all of the procession was through coming out.

Mr. Griffin. Was it your understanding that this line that was forming on the side of Oswald, was it your understanding that there was supposed to be somebody up ahead of Oswald as well as behind him?

Mr. McMillon. I didn’t know who from homicide would be with him.

Mr. Griffin. You people, who were on the side, you flankers, so to speak, were there any of you flankers supposed to be in front?

Mr. McMillon. Not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Were there any specific instructions that you were supposed to be in front or behind?

Mr. McMillon. Not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. Was there anybody that was supposed to be the leader in this, that was supposed to turn and you were supposed to follow him?

Mr. McMillon. Not that I know of.

Mr. Griffin. I think maybe we can go most easily from here if I break in a second. I am going to hand you a series of documents and——

Mr. McMillon. All right.

Mr. Griffin. And I am going to ask you to just go out into the hall and read them.

(Recess.)

Mr. Griffin. I am going to mark for the purposes of identification as Exhibit 5017 a document, which is a copy of a report of an interview held by FBI Agents Allen H. Smith and Tom E. Chapoton [spelling] C-h-a-p-o-t-o-n, with you, Officer McMillon, on December 4, 1963. Have you had a chance to read this?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I read it out in the hall a while ago.

Mr. Griffin. Now, is there—are there any corrections or additions that you would like to make in that interview?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you then sign on the page there that I have marked the exhibit and date it, sign any place that it is convenient?

Mr. McMillon. Today is the 25th?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, I am going to mark for the purposes of identification a letter dated November 27, 1963, from you to Chief Curry—this is a copy of a typewritten letter—and mark that, “Exhibit 5018, Dallas, Texas, Detective McMillon, 3-25-64.” Have you had a chance to read that?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And is that a true and accurate copy of a letter which you sent to Chief Curry on that date?

Mr. McMillon. I have corrected this letter. It was written on the 24th. It was typed, apparently, on the 27th. I don’t recall that date. I am sure that is right, but it was written on the 24th, and at a departmental interview, I gave a statement correcting two or three points in this deal. Here where it says I recognized Detective Leavelle on the prisoner’s left——

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. I believe that is incorrect. He was on the prisoner’s right, his left hand, in other words.

48 Mr. Griffin. You want to draw a line? I will draw a line here through the word “left.” I will draw a line out.

Mr. McMillon. Okay.

Mr. Griffin. I will draw a line out to the corner. Would you put in “right,” and then would you indicate in parentheses, would you indicate in parentheses that this was corrected in a later interview with whomever it was?

Mr. McMillon. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. If you would, put it out in the margin right after. Now——

Mr. McMillon. Just one second.

Mr. Griffin. Okay.

Mr. McMillon. Okay. Now, this is correct. This is the way that I wrote it on that date.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me ask you a few questions, Detective McMillon, about this letter.

Mr. McMillon. All right.

Mr. Griffin. When did you first learn that you were going to have—going to be asked to write a letter like this?

Mr. McMillon. It was between 3:30 and 4 o’clock, Captain Nichols, my bureau commander, instructed everybody from the automobile theft bureau, who was on duty in the basement at the time, to write the special report, and that is when I wrote this, which is this.

Mr. Griffin. I see. You have here what appears to be a copy——

Mr. McMillon. This is typed.

Mr. Griffin. Of a handwritten? Now, would you indicate, then, on this typed copy, which we have, where the date is, would you cross—was the actual copy of the letter dated November 27?

Mr. McMillon. I wrote it on the, 24th, and apparently this is when the girl typed it, on the 27th.

Mr. Griffin. Would you circle that date, “27th,” and indicate on there that it was actually written by hand on the 24th?

Mr. McMillon. All right, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Detective McMillon, you have been good enough to bring here with you a copy of this original handwritten letter. Can the commission have this copy?

Mr. McMillon. Not that one, but I am sure that it will be available to you.

Mr. Griffin. If we made a copy of this, had this copied and gave it back to you, could we then retain it?

Mr. McMillon. No. I would rather you get that from the department. That is Captain Nichols’, a copy that he had in his office, but I am sure he will give it to you.

Mr. Griffin. I see. You don’t even want to let us copy it without getting his permission?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Will you call him before you leave here and ask him if we can copy this?

Mr. McMillon. Sure. You can call him right now.

Mr. Griffin. No. Let’s get on with it.

Mr. McMillon. I want any permission to come from them. I don’t want the responsibility of giving out departmental stuff.

Mr. Griffin. I understand. You say that Captain Nichols told you to prepare a report of what happened?

Mr. McMillon. He instructed everybody to.

Mr. Griffin. Now, have you—has any information come into your possession or did you know at the time whether Captain Nichols was acting on his own or whether other department heads had been instructed?

Mr. McMillon. I didn’t know at the time when he instructed us if that was his own or if he had been instructed to have us do same.

Mr. Griffin. Now, is Captain Nichols the head of the auto theft bureau?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, he is.

(Discussion off of the record.)

Mr. Griffin. That was Assistant Chief Batchelor, and I asked him if I could have permission to copy it, and he said “Okay.” Is that good enough for you?

49 Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Let me do this right now. Let me take the copy of it and give it to one of our girls and ask her to take it and get a copy of it. Excuse me. Do you know, Detective McMillon, if people in any of the other bureaus were asked to make reports on the 24th?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know. I am sure some of them were.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, let me mark for identification a document which purports to be the report of an interview conducted with you by Special Agents George W. H. Carlson and Paul H. Scott of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I will mark this, “Dallas, Texas, Detective McMillon, 3-25-64,” and this will be Exhibit 5019. Have you had a chance, to read over what is marked Exhibit 5019?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I have.

Mr. Griffin. And do you have any additions or corrections you want to make in that?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Would you take these three exhibits? You have signed the first one. Would you sign and date Exhibit 5018 and Exhibit 5019?

Mr. McMillon. Where do you want them signed?

Mr. Griffin. Any appropriate place where you have got space.

Mr. McMillon. The reason I am looking through this—one second.

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. See, there are two FBI reports, is that right?

Mr. Griffin. Right.

Mr. McMillon. And then the copy.

Mr. Griffin. Of your report?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. You are missing one copy, one other statement that I made.

Mr. Griffin. I am? Now, can you get a copy of that for us?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know if I can or not. The department has it. I am sure it is available to us, because they had it during the trial.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. McMillon. It is in this statement that I corrected this other stuff here in my original report.

Mr. Griffin. It would be easier for us if you would go back to whoever has custody of those, whoever has the responsibility for it, and then ask if you can get a copy of it and ask if you can send it to us.

Mr. McMillon. I will.

Mr. Griffin. I am sure that you won’t have any difficulty getting it.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t think so. I thought probably you would have it attached to it. I am sure they probably still have that typed in court. It is a typewritten report that I made to two lieutenants, department. The third was wrote out; the second one was the two FBI agents; the third one was the one you are missing; the fourth one is this FBI report that you have.

Mr. Griffin. I want to move away from the reports, go back to what happened on the 24th. As I understand it from the reports that I have marked here for identification, you remained with Ruby from the time that he was brought into the jail office until about 3:30 in the afternoon. Is that correct?

Mr. McMillon. I was with Ruby from the time that I first grabbed an arm out there and the scuffle followed; I was with him from that point until about 3:30 in the afternoon, and during this time that I was with him on the fifth floor until 3:30 in the afternoon, I was away at different times for short intervals.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got Ruby up to the fifth floor, was he dressed?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did there come a time when you searched him thoroughly and undressed him?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Were you present during that time?

Mr. McMillon. During part of that time.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall who else was present?

Mr. McMillon. Detective Archer, Detective Clardy, some of the jail personnel.

Mr. Griffin. Now, were you present when his pockets were emptied out?

50 Mr. McMillon. I believe that I was. I am not sure.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall whether or not he had a wallet on him at that time or not?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall definitely, but I don’t believe that he did.

Mr. Griffin. Try to think as best you can, now. What was—what do you remember being taken off of his person at that time?

Mr. McMillon. I know that there was some money. You mean in addition to the clothing?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir.

Mr. McMillon. I know that he had some money on him; I know that he had two post card deals on him, in his property at the jail, that had these “Impeach Earl Warren” deals on them.

Mr. Griffin. Two post cards?

Mr. McMillon. Two pieces of paper. The best I remember, they were pieces of paper.

Mr. Griffin. Could they have been photographs?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk to him or did you hear anybody talk to him about these photographs?

Mr. McMillon. It came out later on in the conversation up in the jail, I believe that he had gone out and photographed them, I believe, but anyway he mentioned this Bernard Weissman, something that he had read about a derogatory article that he had read in the paper, he had tried to run that down.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me ask you this. Were you present when Agent Hall of the FBI interviewed him?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, part of the time. I was in and out for some short intervals. Phone calls, we will say, rest room, away for things like that.

Mr. Griffin. Yes. Now, I don’t want you to tell me about anything that happened right this moment while Hall was conducting the interview. Now, were you also present when Sorrels——

Mr. McMillon. When he first came up?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, I don’t want you to tell me anything right at this point about what was said when Sorrels was there.

Mr. McMillon. All right.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there all of the time that agent—not agent but Sergeant Dean was there?

Mr. McMillon. No. I was away during one of those intervals. I was there part of the time. I was there when Sorrels brought Dean up there.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there when Dean left?

Mr. McMillon. I am sure I was.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there when Sorrels left?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I believe so.

Mr. Griffin. Between the time that Sorrels left and the time Dean left, did you leave at any time?

Mr. McMillon. Yes. I was away during the time that Sorrels and Dean were there with him. I had gone around to attend to some other little detail. I didn’t hear what it was. I didn’t hear all of their conversation. I heard part of it.

Mr. Griffin. Did Dean and Sorrels leave together?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know whether they did or not.

Mr. Griffin. I don’t want you to tell me anything that was said when Dean was there or when Sorrels was there. Now, with reference to these pictures and the Bernard Weissman statement, was that made—did you hear him talk about that at any time when Hall, Dean or Sorrels were not there? In other words, when was it that you heard them talked about?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know at what point during the day that it was. There was so much conversation, I don’t remember at what point during the day that that was.

Mr. Griffin. All right. When his pockets were emptied, did people immediately begin to question him about these items that were found in his pockets?

51 Mr. McMillon. We didn’t attempt to question the man or to interrogate him at all; it was more in the line of conversation. What Clardy or Archer or I had to say to him, it wasn’t in the form of interrogation, it was in the form of conversation. We knew that it wasn’t our business or place to try to. We felt we were there strictly for security.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you three, Archer, Clardy, and you, were you the ones that stripped his clothes and took the property out of his pockets?

Mr. McMillon. We assisted in it. There was some jailers assisting us, too.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you removed the contents of his pockets, what did you do with that material?

Mr. McMillon. As best I remember, we gave it to a jailer. I recall that a hat was sent up to the jail. I had lost mine during the scuffle. A hat was sent up to the jail. They thought it was mine. I recall seeing some of that property placed in his hat, but I can’t remember for sure. I know it was turned over to authorized jail personnel.

Mr. Griffin. It was turned over to some jailer?

Mr. McMillon. Uh-huh.

Mr. Griffin. Now, is that the normal procedure, when a man is stripped, to turn it over to a jailer?

Mr. McMillon. His property?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Oh, yes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, whose responsibility was it to fill out an inventory at that point?

Mr. McMillon. It would have been the jailer’s, and it was.

Mr. Griffin. And you didn’t fill out an inventory on it?

Mr. McMillon. No.

Mr. Griffin. Do you remember if any keys were taken out of his pocket?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you examine those keys?

Mr. McMillon. Not at this particular point. I can explain that right now, if you want me to go into it.

Mr. Griffin. Yes, I would.

Mr. McMillon. Okay. Later in the afternoon, one of the lieutenants, I believe it was, instructed me to take the keys from his property, to meet, I believe, Lieutenant Smart and Lieutenant Swain with those keys so they could get into his car. I took those keys and went to where they had told me that I would find them. I believe it was on the parking lot in front of the Western Union. I walked down there, and I couldn’t find them. I returned to the jail, and I was later able to determine that they had already gotten the car and had impounded it and had taken care of that, so the keys weren’t needed, so I took the keys back.

Mr. Griffin. The keys that you had, was it clear to you that this key chain had a car key on it?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I believe so. I am not sure, but I mean I am sure that it was, whether I took it for granted or what, but I assumed that there was a key on it that fit the car.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with Ruby about whether there was a key on it that fit the car?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall. Possibly may have.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any information at the time you got a hold of these keys as to whether the car was locked or unlocked?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t remember that. It had come up in the conversation some way that he had a dog in the car.

Mr. Griffin. Now, how did that come up?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t remember that, but maybe Jack asked us to take care of his dog or something like that. I don’t know. I made no note of it after I had found that they had impounded the car, that that matter had been taken care of, and I felt like that ended our responsibility or it was someone else’s responsibility, other than the three of us remaining there as security there.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, during the time that Dean and Sorrels were52 present, was at least one of the other three of you, Archer, Clardy, and you, present with Ruby?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I believe so, probably most of the time and probably it would have been Archer more, because I was running about the jail taking care of some of the details. I was away for short periods of time, so I didn’t hear all of the conversation.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you—by the time Dean and Sorrels left, what information did you have as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?

Mr. McMillon. They had already come out by then and had just walked right straight down the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. McMillon. Let me see. Let me see those notes there. I believe I have it in them. Refresh my——

Mr. Griffin. That is a statement that you made on December 4?

Mr. McMillon. That is the second.

Mr. Griffin. Why don’t you look at your statement of the 24th?

Mr. McMillon. We are still missing that fourth report. I believe it was covered in there.

Mr. Griffin. Well, now, that is a later report, but on the date of the 24th, when these things were fresh in your mind at 3:30, you didn’t mention anything in your report, did you, about how Ruby got down the ramp?

Mr. McMillon. Just a second. No, sir; I didn’t mention it then.

Mr. Griffin. Why was that?

Mr. McMillon. Well, I couldn’t possibly have mentioned everything that I knew about the deal here. I just didn’t mention it.

Mr. Griffin. But you knew that was important, didn’t you?

Mr. McMillon. No, sir; I didn’t think anything about it being important at all at the time. I gave that information, I believe—this report was written on Sunday—I gave it to them on Saturday, I believe, during the departmental investigation.

Mr. Griffin. In the meantime, had you talked with Dean?

Mr. McMillon. With Dean?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall if I had or not. I don’t remember whether I had seen him or not.

Mr. Griffin. In the meantime, had you talked with Archer or Clardy?

Mr. McMillon. Oh, yes; sure had.

Mr. Griffin. There came a time, didn’t there, when Dean was under a lot of pressure from the people in the police department?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know anything about that. Probably no more than the rest of us. I don’t know. I think that Dean got misquoted or something in the paper.

Mr. Griffin. And the department conducted—directed particular attention to that in part of their investigation, didn’t they?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t know that that was what the investigation was over or not.

Mr. Griffin. Didn’t you know somewhere along the line that Dean might possibly be in trouble?

Mr. McMillon. No, sir; this article in the paper, I had heard all different kinds of rumors. I had heard that the officer, who was supposed to be the one that saw him milling around outside, was an ex-police officer, the article in the paper.

Mr. Griffin. There was an article in the paper that particularly quoted Dean?

Mr. McMillon. I haven’t seen the article. I understand that there was.

Mr. Griffin. That is right. Now, were you present when Agent Hall questioned Ruby?

Mr. McMillon. Part of the time.

Mr. Griffin. Were you there when Agent Hall questioned Ruby about how he got down the Main Street ramp?

Mr. McMillon. I may or may not have been. I don’t know. It seemed to me like most of his conversation I recall Hall asking him there, I am sure I already53 knew or had been told, but it seemed to me like Hall was running a background information, background check. His questioning seemed to be along that line.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall Hall asking Ruby how he got down the ramp?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall.

Mr. Griffin. Or how Ruby got in the basement?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall Hall asking him that.

Mr. Griffin. Let me say this. If you had heard this and Ruby gave information to Hall that you say was different from what you say you heard Dean get out of Ruby, you would have brought that to Hall’s attention, wouldn’t you?

Mr. McMillon. I probably would have, had I heard it.

Mr. Griffin. If you had heard him say something different, you would have brought it to his attention?

Mr. McMillon. I am sure that I would.

Mr. Griffin. In fact, any police officer would have done that, don’t you think so?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; I think so.

Mr. Griffin. Now, isn’t it true that, as late as—well, strike this—did you sign the typed copy, the original typed copy of Exhibit 5018?

Mr. McMillon. Did I sign it?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir.

Mr. McMillon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. So you saw that original typed copy after it had been typed?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, on November 27 or——

Mr. McMillon. Let’s back up just a second. You said did I sign the original typed copy?

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir.

Mr. McMillon. I am sure that I did. I thought you were referring to the original handwritten, the one that I had written out in hand.

Mr. Griffin. No.

Mr. McMillon. I am pretty sure that I signed it.

Mr. Griffin. It indicates that.

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you read it over before you signed it?

Mr. McMillon. Oh, sure.

Mr. Griffin. At the time that you signed that report, did you know that there was an investigation being conducted in the police department as to how Ruby got into the basement?

Mr. McMillon. Sure did. I had already been interviewed by the FBI when I signed this departmental report.

Mr. Griffin. Now, if—and did you feel that the information, which you say that you got, that you heard Ruby give Dean, did you feel on November 27 that that was important information?

Mr. McMillon. What was that again, sir?

Mr. Griffin. I believe you stated before that you heard Ruby tell Dean that he came down the ramp?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I heard Jack say that he came down the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, at the time that you signed this report on November the 27th, did you realize that such a statement from Ruby was a matter of concern to the police department?

Mr. McMillon. At the time that I signed those reports was just like all of the rest of them. I realized that anything that I might know or that I can remember might be of some value or of some significance to anybody who was investigating it.

Mr. Griffin. You certainly knew that any statement that Ruby made about how he got down into that basement would be something that somebody might want to know?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. You read that report over?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. And there is nothing in that report about Ruby having made such a statement, is there?

54 Mr. McMillon. This first one here?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Let’s see. I don’t believe so. No, sir; I don’t see anything.

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, you have had a chance to look over Exhibit 5019, haven’t you?

Mr. McMillon. Yes, I have looked it over.

Mr. Griffin. Now, did you tell the Secret Service agents, who interviewed you at that time, about the statement——

Mr. McMillon. I was never interviewed by anybody who was identified as Secret Service agents.

Mr. Griffin. I am sorry. FBI agents. Did you tell those FBI agents anything about Ruby’s statement to Dean?

Mr. McMillon. I told them about how he said he got into the basement. I don’t believe they asked me about Dean, that Ruby told him down the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. What time did this interview take place?

Mr. McMillon. Let’s see the date on this. This is the two agents that came to see me on the 25th, that is on Monday?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; do you remember what time of the day?

Mr. McMillon. Yes; in the afternoon.

Mr. Griffin. In the afternoon?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Had you talked to Dean between the time he left you and that afternoon, the time you made that statement?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall that I had, but I don’t believe that I did.

Mr. Griffin. Did you know by the time you made this statement that Dean had reported to somebody in the police department that he saw the man come down the——

Mr. McMillon. No; I didn’t know that at that time. I didn’t know that Dean had allegedly said anything of that stuff then. People had told me, after I had got off duty, this, that and the other. I heard somewhere that Dean had been on an interview somewhere on television or something, and that is as much as I knew. I don’t know. I don’t believe that this article was out at the time. It possibly may have been. I think this article came out a week or two later where Dean is supposed to have said that he seen him. I believe it was some time later after this, a week or so later after this.

Mr. Griffin. Did you talk with either Archer or Clardy or anybody else in the police department about this statement that Ruby made to you between the time that Ruby made it and the time you gave that interview with the FBI?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t recall what the conversation was. Archer, Clardy, and several more of us discussed the case, but Captain Nichols, about the time we got in from the jail about 3:30, when we started writing that report over there——

Mr. Griffin. Yes, sir.

Mr. McMillon. Captain Nichols’ instructions were for each of us to write what we had been doing.

Mr. Griffin. Uh-huh.

Mr. McMillon. What we had been doing, facts about it, instructed us not to talk to any other man about it, that he wanted each man’s own report, which I wrote my own report. After I had written my report and turned it in, there has been a lot of conversation about it. I have discussed it with numerous people.

Mr. Griffin. Did anybody from the homicide bureau question you about the statement that Ruby made?

Mr. McMillon. May have been, but I don’t remember when. Something about I was supposed to sign an affidavit to them or something, but I don’t believe I ever signed any affidavit to them, some fact that I was——

Mr. Griffin. How soon after you heard this statement from Ruby were you questioned by homicide detectives concerning that statement?

Mr. McMillon. I don’t think I was ever to the point where we could say questioned by them. It seems to me like one of them asked me in the hall, “Did you hear him say so and so, did you hear this, that and the other, could you55 testify to this, that and the other, did you hear it?” It came up in a couple of days, but, as far as I know, I didn’t sign an affidavit.

Mr. Griffin. Did you testify at the trial?

Mr. McMillon. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Did you testify about having heard this statement?

Mr. McMillon. How he entered the basement?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. McMillon. Okay. I believe you are going to be a little more briefed on it when you get the fourth report. It is covered.

Mr. Griffin. All right.

Mr. McMillon. There is four reports, he only has three, but anyway that is the statement that I made at this departmental investigation.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you an exhibit marked 5015. That is something you prepared, diagram, Commerce, Main, Pearl, and Expressway. Would you sign that and date it? Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5020, which is a copy of a copy, which you provided us of your original handwritten statement of November 24 to Chief Curry. Would you look that over so you are certain that that is a true and accurate copy and then, if you feel it is true and accurate, would you sign it and date it? Would you prefer to do that out in the hall?

Mr. McMillon. It won’t be but just a minute here.

Mr. Griffin. Okay.

Mr. McMillon. Okay.

Mr. Griffin. Listen, Tom. I appreciate your coming up here.

The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 1 p.m., on May 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department was present.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, my name is Leon Hubert. I will be taking your deposition this afternoon, and so will Mr. Samuel Stern. We are both members of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, that is to say Mr. Rankin.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, both Mr. Stern and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Sorrels. Of course you will take an oath a little later on. Is it understood between us that this statement of my authority and of Mr. Stern’s authority is sufficient to carry for both depositions—in other words, it will be really a continuation of the deposition by Mr. Stern on another area. Is that understood?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Is it understood also that the oath you are going to take will be applicable to the testimony elicited from you by me, as well as that elicited from you by Mr. Stern?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Sorrels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and other pertinent facts which you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Sorrels, you have appeared today by virtue of a verbal request made by us at the direction of the General Counsel. Under the rules adopted by the Commission,56 all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this notice. I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice provided for by the rules of the Commission.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Then I will ask you to stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Sorrels. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name.

Mr. Sorrels. Forrest V. Sorrels.

Mr. Hubert. How old are you, Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. Sorrels. Sixty-three.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside now?

Mr. Sorrels. 3319 Hanover, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation?

Mr. Sorrels. Special agent in charge of the Dallas district of the United States Secret Service.

Mr. Hubert. Now, before I go any further, I should like the record to show that Mr. Fred B. Smith——

Mr. Smith. Deputy General Counsel, United States Treasury Department.

Mr. Hubert. Is present—in what capacity?

Mr. Smith. I guess observer on behalf of the Secretary of Treasury.

Mr. Hubert. And Mr. Burt Griffin, also a member of the staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, is also present.

Now, Mr. Sorrels, I would like for you to state to us the general background, your history, sort of a biographical sketch, if you will, starting off with your education and on to date.

Mr. Sorrels. I was born in Red River County, Tex., on a farm, September 16, 1901; later moved to a little town nearby called Bogata, Tex. I lived there until 1916, when my family moved to El Paso, Tex. I resided there until 1935.

I went to El Paso High School and after graduation attended Draughon’s Business College, taking typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. I then went to work for a small wholesale grocery, worked there for only a short time, and then went to work for a brick company, worked there a very short time, and then obtained employment as a clerk in the office of Bureau of Narcotics, Treasury Department, in El Paso, Texas.

Mr. Hubert. What year was that, sir?

Mr. Sorrels. That was in 1922. I worked there for about a year and went back to the brick company. I was only there a short time when I learned of a clerical position in the office of the United States Secret Service at El Paso. I later was employed in that position on July 6, 1923. That was a two-man office, and I began very shortly after employment there assisting and helping in investigative work.

In 1926, the special agent in charge was transferred from there, and prior to that time I had been appointed as what was known at that time as an operative, which is comparable to our special agent of today. He transferred from there to Dallas about July of 1926, and I was left as acting agent in charge of that office. In October that “acting” was removed, and I continued there in the capacity of agent in charge until 1935, when I was transferred to Dallas as special agent in charge there. In 1936 I was transferred to New Orleans as acting supervising agent of a newly created setup whereby the States of Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi were in what was known at that time as the Tenth District.

In 1938, the headquarters office was moved from New Orleans to Houston. In 1941 it was moved from Houston to Dallas. Subsequent to that time, the organization of the 15 supervising agents was abandoned, and each office reported direct into the headquarters office in Washington, excepting a very few that were known as resident agency officers.

I have continued in that capacity as special agent in charge of the Dallas district, and am so employed at the present time.

57 Mr. Hubert. So that you have been special agent in charge actually of the Dallas district since 1938.

Mr. Sorrels. Actually—it was in my territory since 1935, but the office was moved back there in 1941, and I have been there ever since.

Mr. Hubert. And you have lived there.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What does the Dallas territory now, under your jurisdiction, and control, consist of?

Mr. Sorrels. Roughly it consists of the northern half of Texas, exclusive of the territory west of the Pecos River. We have in the Dallas district the entire northern judicial district of Texas, the Waco division of the western district of Texas, the Tyler, Jefferson, Texarkana, Parris, and Sherman divisions of the eastern district of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. By divisions, you mean divisions in the United States court system?

Mr. Sorrels. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. How many men do you have?

Mr. Sorrels. At the present time we have six special agents besides myself.

Mr. Hubert. They all work out of Dallas?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir. One special agent actually headquarters, so to speak, in Fort Worth. He remains in that section most of the time.

Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us something about your family.

Mr. Sorrels. I am married.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been married?

Mr. Sorrels. I have a daughter 16 years of age and a younger daughter 7 years of age. I have 2 children by a former marriage, a son who is a captain in the United States Army and a daughter who is married to an employee of the IBM Company in New York City.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been married to your present wife?

Mr. Sorrels. Since 1946.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Stern is going to take a deposition with respect to security measures and other matters, I think, in regard to the President. I am going to depose you with reference to a number of matters concerning principally the security of Oswald after he was arrested and until his death, and your activities with reference to Ruby after he had shot Oswald.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, getting into the first matter, can you tell us what you observed yourself of the security measures which were in effect and actually operating with reference to Oswald after his arrest.

Mr. Sorrels. The first time that I saw Oswald was on the afternoon of November 22 as he was coming out of Capt. Will Fritz’ office in the Dallas Police Department on the third floor.

Mr. Hubert. About what time was that?

Mr. Sorrels. The exact time I cannot give you, because I had been working at a frantic pace. It was some time probably past the middle of the afternoon. I had previously been informed by my office that Captain Fritz had endeavored to locate me because he had a suspect in custody. And when I arrived there, Captain Fritz was in his office, apparently talking to the suspect, whom I determined to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

As he was being removed from the office, I told Captain Fritz that I would like to talk to this man when an opportunity was afforded, and he remarked “You can talk to him right now—just go right around the corner there by the side of the office,” which I did.

Oswald was brought around and was seated there. There were a number of other officers present, detectives, I think possibly some FBI agents, and maybe some of my agents had come in in the meantime.

I started to——

Mr. Hubert. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the security measures that you observed with reference to protecting the person of Oswald from the time you first saw him, say up until the time you have reached now.

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized officers58 in that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone that I recognized to be other than an officer.

Mr. Hubert. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?

Mr. Sorrels. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor, that was an entirely different situation because there were cameras set up, tripods, still photographers, photographers with cameras in their hands, and newspapermen in large numbers in the hallways.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at a little office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass Oswald out of Fritz’ office, and through this third floor corridor, where all the newsmen were gathered?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That was still within Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and Captain Fritz had an office built within that office—just merely to take him out of the door and right around the corner of his inside office there.

Mr. Hubert. Then you did interview Oswald.

Mr. Sorrels. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, “I don’t know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops.”

Mr. Hubert. How long did you speak to him?

Mr. Sorrels. Not very long.

Mr. Hubert. In point of time.

Mr. Sorrels. Not over—I don’t think over 10 minutes at the most.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what happened to him after that?

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.

Mr. Hubert. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him out of Fritz’ office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator, is that correct?

Mr. Sorrels. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with reference to his person after he was out of Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed him, and several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in front—someone went ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on the side, and then some brought up the rear.

Mr. Hubert. You did not go up to the jail?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe any system of identification of the people who were on the third floor?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no particular difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there know me, from my years of being in that city. But subsequent to that time I would have to identify myself many times. This was to uniformed police officers that were on duty. And I would have to show my commission book in order to get into Captain Fritz’ office, or else get into the executive offices there, where the chief of police and the deputy chief offices were located.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the area, to the third floor area?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where were they?

Mr. Sorrels. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at Captain Fritz’ door.

Mr. Hubert. Did you observe them requiring identification by other persons? I mean you described how they required you to identify yourself. Did you notice whether they did so with other people, and if so, what did they do?

Mr. Sorrels. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get through identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where the chief’s office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz’ office. But on a number of occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before I can get my commission book out, some of the newsmen or photographers there that knew me would59 say, “He is Sorrels of the Secret Service.” I, upon being recognized and identifying myself, would be admitted. Some of the officers on duty there of course after the second or third time they would recognize me, and I would have no difficulty getting in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required to identify themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the officers were.

Mr. Hubert. Would you say that the security conditions that you just described were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through November 24—that is, on the third floor?

Mr. Sorrels. Captain Fritz’ office definitely yes—going into his office. I do not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third floor on the 22d when I first got down there. But subsequent to that time, I do recall having to identify myself almost every time I went up there.

Mr. Hubert. What was the general condition of the third floor area from point of personnel, equipment, and so forth?

Mr. Sorrels. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because of the fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and wires and photographers and reporters that you would have to step over tripods and wires and almost elbow your way to get in and out of the place. And every time you would come out of it—Captain Fritz’ office—they would turn on those bright lights, and you would have to shield your eyes almost to keep from being temporarily blinded.

Mr. Hubert. Do you mean—that last condition you described took place when anybody came out of Fritz’ office, or when they came out with Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. No—I would not say just anybody, but many times when I would start out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the door, they would turn the lights on, I guess to be prepared in case Oswald or anyone else that they wished to photograph would come out.

Mr. Hubert. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say, from the arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I take it that you observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz’ office to the jail elevator at least quite a number of times.

Mr. Sorrels. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is when he was taken out of Captain Fritz’ office on the afternoon of the 22d. Then there were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought back into Captain Fritz’ office and when he was taken out. I remember that many times. In other words, about three going out and two coming in I can definitely recall.

Mr. Hubert. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any one of those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions asked him, or remarks made to him?

Mr. Sorrels. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain Fritz’ office or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the hallway that I can recall.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that on the first occasion you did observe him—after you had interviewed him for about 10 minutes—you did observe him move out of Fritz’ office and go to the elevator.

Mr. Sorrels. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office to the elevator. I did not see him taken down the hallway.

Mr. Hubert. I see; I did misunderstand you.

Mr. Sorrels. Sorry.

Mr. Hubert. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or any other people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he was going from Fritz’ office to the elevator.

Mr. Sorrels. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Could those news people see into Fritz’ office from the hallway?

Mr. Sorrels. They could see into the outer office, but they could not very well see into his office unless they actually came inside the office within which his office is located. You have got one door that faces on the west side of the office, and then Captain Fritz’ there faces north. So that it would be a question of someone might see just a corner portion of his office from the hallway door,60 which is glass at the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for example, where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be called the outer office of Captain Fritz’ office.

Mr. Sorrels. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not face on an area in which the press was located.

Mr. Sorrels. That’s right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the doors, and the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.

Mr. Hubert. While you were up there at any time during the period we are talking about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a civilian who was not either a police officer or connected with the news media in some way?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking about when Oswald was around?

Mr. Hubert. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.

Mr. Sorrels. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby’s sister was in his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody, and at that time they were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio station KRLD who was trying to make arrangements for Ruby’s sister to get up in the jail to see him. But prior to that, I do not know, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media were present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the news media were assembled?

Mr. Sorrels. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called the lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup section at one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At that time it was my request, because a witness who had been interviewed by me, and who had seen the person fire the third shot from the window of the Book Depository Building, I had gotten in touch with him through one of our agents, and he was brought down there for the specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was first interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.

Mr. Hubert. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of identification.

Mr. Sorrels. I am sorry—I did not understand the question.

Mr. Hubert. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of identification.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room usually used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity to see Oswald.

Mr. Sorrels. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in the lineup.

Mr. Hubert. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern expressed by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald, and allegedly transmitted to the Dallas people?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you become aware of that later?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. Even now you do not?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?

Mr. Sorrels. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You did not even know he existed?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald had been shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my first report to my headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack Rubin—R-u-b-i-n, an operator of a nightclub. That is the first information I got. I just misunderstood the pronunciation of the last word.

Mr. Hubert. I think I have already asked this question in a general way—61that is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I think for the record I should make it more specific.

You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent that you could recognize him, I suppose.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police department building at any time after the President was shot, and until Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know now to be Jack Ruby before I saw him in the Dallas City Jail on the fifth floor.

Mr. Hubert. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes—and mind you, Mr. Stern might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way this is being handled.

You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Could you tell us where and at what time?

Mr. Sorrels. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11 o’clock in the morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office at approximately I guess about 11:15.

Mr. Hubert. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?

Mr. Sorrels. We, of course, were interested in any statement that Oswald might make relating to any phase of the assassination of the President. Particularly, I was interested in trying to obtain an admission from him that he had used the name of A. Hidell as an alias, because information had been developed that he had purchased the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository under the name of A. Hidell.

There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans, as I recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at the address given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain Fritz got through questioning him on the morning of November 24, he asked if any of the officers present in the room desired to ask him any questions. And I said, “Yes; I would like to ask him a question.”

In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz’ office, and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain Fritz informed that he was still talking to him.

Mr. Hubert. Captain Fritz informed——

Mr. Sorrels. Informed Chief Curry——

Mr. Hubert. That he was or you were?

Mr. Sorrels. That he was. And a very short time after that is when I had an opportunity to ask Oswald some questions. I showed Oswald the change of address card——

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you this: Was your interrogation of him cut off, as it were, by the transfer?

Mr. Sorrels. By the transfer?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Had you finished with him?

Mr. Sorrels. I had finished——

Mr. Hubert. As to that point?

Mr. Sorrels. As to that point; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I think, at the county jail, anyhow, would you not?

Mr. Sorrels. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I am sure I would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start talking to him that afternoon.

Mr. Hubert. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.

Mr. Sorrels. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I might have attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving out much information.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in custody62 of the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any obstacles or hindrances were put in your way of examining him?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there would have been a chance to have questioned him without others being present, or so many others being present.

Mr. Hubert. At the time that you were in Fritz’ office, on November 24, did you hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans. I do recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought down there, because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had been taken from him, I think, for laboratory examination. And Captain Fritz sent and got some of his clothes, and he selected kind of a sweater-type——

Mr. Hubert. But you did not hear the officers of the Dallas police force discussing the method of transportation and the security measures that they had planned and put into operation?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz objected to that because of—one reason that I recall was what effect it might have in his trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution by him being transported in an armored car, which is not of course ordinarily used in the transportation of prisoners in that area.

Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the armored car would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to maneuver as easily as a car. And it was his desire to take him in a police car with escorts.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed, and ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as to bypass the press, as it were?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass them, because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building, I even noticed cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.

Mr. Smith. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely wrong about this, but wasn’t there something about the time of transporting him?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had inquired of Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to transport him to the county jail on the night of November 23.

Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so they could get some sleep if he was not going to be transported that night—they would go home and get some rest.

Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect, “Go on home and get your sleep, there won’t be anything doing before 10 o’clock tomorrow morning.”

As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he would be moved at 10 o’clock in the morning, or words to that effect.

Mr. Smith. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered him having mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is important.

Mr. Hubert. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had received an anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort, by a group of men, would be made to kill Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that time. I did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the police department that someone would try to kill him when they removed him, or words to that effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to the time he was actually shot. I do not recall that morning of having heard anything about that. And I definitely did not hear anything about a group. I remembered something about it later on, but I never heard anything about it at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that would be followed in transporting Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. Not before Oswald was shot.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have learned since, the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the basement area?

63 Mr. Sorrels. Would you read that question again?

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment ago that when you came in you saw all the press people with their cameras and so forth in the basement area.

Mr. Sorrels. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.

Mr. Hubert. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that—that would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that that would be a point on the route to be taken at which they could get pictures. And I was wondering if you had heard anything prior to that time about the route, or had you heard that these people had been informed of the route?

Mr. Sorrels. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the police generally. They have a passageway which comes from Main Street down into the basement, and then the exit continues on out to Commerce Street, and the police cars that bring prisoners in use the basement. In other words, they drive the car right down to the basement, and the actual receiving office, the receiving office for the jail is on the basement floor.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some other member of the police department about the possibility of moving Oswald in a way other than that which was planned?

Mr. Sorrels. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at 10 o’clock—that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in the papers—I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not remove Oswald from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at an announced time; that I would take him out at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning when there was no one around.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?

Mr. Sorrels. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.

Mr. Hubert. Did you tell that to any other person?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?

Mr. Sorrels. No; not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?

Mr. Sorrels. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that in order to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who might feel inclined to try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was made more or less unannounced or in secret, that those opportunities would have been at least lessened to a great degree.

Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to—let’s reverse that just a bit—that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not try to put anything over on them; or words to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why your suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that captain—that Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were, to the press?

Mr. Sorrels. I didn’t consider it so much as breaking his word as I would that he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words, move him out without the press being aware of the fact—let’s put it that way. That was my impression.

Mr. Hubert. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that suggestion?

Mr. Sorrels. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a short time before they got ready to move him.

Mr. Hubert. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought to Chief Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had left Fritz’ office at that time, as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move began from Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as I recall it. In other words——

Mr. Hubert. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the office of Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on the south side of the64 building, on the Commerce Street side, and we were observing the people across the street from the city hall, as apparently they had been moved over there by officers on duty down below. And we just saw several people over there that were apparently waiting for an opportunity to see them take the prisoner out.

Mr. Hubert. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor’s office, at the point you have just described, to wit, the windows looking out on Commerce Street, do you know whether Oswald had been shot?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t think so, because that was immediately—in other words, when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the chief’s office, that is right on the same floor. And we were there for a few minutes before we heard that he had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. But the Oswald party left Fritz’ office before you and Mr. Kelley did?

Mr. Sorrels. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left, yes; because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald selecting, I think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have no independent recollection of seeing him going through the door or anything like that. He could have been there when we walked out. But it is my impression that he was taken out and shortly thereafter Mr. Kelley and I went to Chief Batchelor’s office.

Mr. Hubert. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of about how many feet?

Mr. Sorrels. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain Fritz’ office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but Chief Batchelor’s office is. You go into the executive area there, and you cut over to the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor’s office is in the corner.

Mr. Hubert. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. One of the police officers that was on duty in the executive area there told us that Oswald had been shot in the basement—in the stomach, as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. You were still in Batchelor’s office at the time you were told that?

Mr. Sorrels. I think we were right outside the office, in the area there. I do not believe we were actually in his office at that particular time. I think we had stepped outside there. And that I do not think was over, oh, I would say a maximum of possibly 10 minutes, from the time we left Captain Fritz’ office to go to Chief Batchelor’s office.

Mr. Hubert. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that Oswald had been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to indicate something wrong going on on Commerce Street?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I understand it, on the scene on Commerce Street, waiting actually to see the procession go out. But this officer told you this at the entrance to Batchelor’s office?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.

Mr. Hubert. You had moved away?

Mr. Sorrels. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing time, I guess. And we were actually in the—outside of Batchelor’s office, but in that area there.

Mr. Hubert. All right. What did you do?

Mr. Sorrels. I immediately rushed down to the basement.

Mr. Hubert. How did you go—by what route?

Mr. Sorrels. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. Public elevator or the jail elevator?

Mr. Sorrels. No; a public elevator—and got down to the basement floor, and I headed right into the jailer’s office. And at that time Oswald was laying on the floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration.

Mr. Hubert. By mechanical means?

Mr. Sorrels. No; by hand. I recall seeing his stomach was uncovered, his shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him artificial respiration by his hands.

I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against the wall, and65 called my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief Paterni that Oswald had been shot by a man named Jack Rubin—that is how I understood it at that time—who operated a nightclub, and that was all the information I had at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Paterni was in Washington?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. That was a long-distance call?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a direct line?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in connection with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners. In other words, the Signal Corps—

(Witness provided telephone number.)

Mr. Hubert. And you can use that on any telephone?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is that a security matter?

Mr. Sorrels. I beg your pardon?

Mr. Hubert. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes—Signal Corps.

Mr. Hubert. I think the record should show that the witness stated the number that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part of the record because it is a security matter.

You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.

What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that call was made?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I have not.

Mr. Hubert. Would it be possible to do so?

Mr. Sorrels. I could not answer that question, because I do not know what records are kept.

Mr. Hubert. Does it go as a long-distance call?

Mr. Sorrels. A long-distance call collect; yes.

Mr. Hubert. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of it?

Mr. Sorrels. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they were not actually making any record of calls—they were coming in so fast, the employees of the telephone company told me those calls—they put people through and were not concerned about time.

Mr. Hubert. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?

Mr. Sorrels. Through the operator.

Mr. Hubert. And it was a collect call?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. It would have to be charged to the government?

Mr. Sorrels. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular phone.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are interested in very narrow areas of time here.

Mr. Sorrels. I would say this—that the time can be established within a matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not been removed to the hospital at the time.

Mr. Hubert. That is right.

But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out?

Mr. Sorrels. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.

Mr. Hubert. He was still in the area when you made the call?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went back to Captain Fritz’ office, because I was interested in talking to the man who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible.

66 Mr. Hubert. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?

Mr. Sorrels. I did not see him.

Mr. Hubert. You did not?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?

Mr. Sorrels. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, how did you get up to Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator, and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack Rubin.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?

Mr. Sorrels. I still—as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth floor. And I said I would like to talk to him. And——

Mr. Hubert. Who did you say that to?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall who it was—some of the detectives down there.

Mr. Hubert. In Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. In Captain Fritz’ office; yes. And Officer Dean was instructed to take me up to where he was.

Mr. Hubert. Who instructed Dean to do that?

Mr. Sorrels. The same officer I was talking to—I don’t remember who it was, but someone apparently——

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Dean prior to that time?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I cannot say that I did. So——

Mr. Hubert. Where was Dean?

Mr. Sorrels. That was in the detective office, Captain Fritz——

Mr. Hubert. What was he doing?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t know what he was doing.

Mr. Hubert. In any case, the same officer to whom you made inquiry concerning where Captain Fritz was and where Ruby was, that officer directed Dean, who was in Fritz’ office, to take you up?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

And we walked out then in the hallway to the jail elevator. Now, that is a different one from the one I came to Fritz’ office in. And I was taken to the fifth floor, and there I saw Ruby, whom I later found out to be Ruby, standing there with, as I recall it, two uniformed police officers. And I introduced myself to him, showed him my credentials, and told him that I would like to ask him some questions.

Mr. Hubert. Now, was this a cell, or what sort of a room was it?

Mr. Sorrels. It wasn’t what you would call a cell, but the elevator—you had to open up a door with bars on it to get into the area there. And——

Mr. Hubert. How large a room was that?

Mr. Sorrels. It wasn’t very large, as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. Can you give us something by way of dimensions in feet?

Mr. Sorrels. I would say in width it was probably about, oh, 6 or 7 feet wide. Now, as to length, I would not be able to say exactly how long it was, because I was not interested in the size of the room or anything at that time, and I paid no attention to it.

Mr. Hubert. Were there tables and furniture and chairs in it?

Mr. Sorrels. No; nothing.

Mr. Hubert. Nothing at all?

Mr. Sorrels. No; nothing. He was standing there. He only had his shorts on. His clothes had been removed.

Mr. Hubert. Did Dean go into that room with you?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. So that there were you and Dean and Ruby in the room?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you mentioned there were two other officers?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, there were two uniformed police officers there.

67 Mr. Hubert. Do you know who they were?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I do not.

Mr. Hubert. Now, to get it clear—I do not mean if you knew who they were at the time, but do you now know who they were?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I do not know who they are now.

Mr. Hubert. And there were only those two?

Mr. Sorrels. There were possibly some other officers came in. I do not recall that they were there at the time we got there, but there might have been others came in. As I recall, there was somebody behind me. I wasn’t interested in them. I was only interested in talking to this man as quickly as I could.

Mr. Hubert. Before we get into the details, can you tell us how long this interview with Ruby lasted?

Mr. Sorrels. I would say possibly not over 5 to 7 minutes, not very long.

Mr. Hubert. What brought it to an end?

Mr. Sorrels. I had gotten the information that I desired at that time, and was anxious to get it back into Washington, because I had been asked to get as much information as I could quickly, and get it back to them up there, something about his background, who he was and so forth.

Mr. Hubert. So that during that interview, which lasted approximately 5 to 7 minutes, your thought is—you know that there was Dean and yourself and Ruby, and you also know that there were two other officers whose names you do not know even now, and you think that there might have been one or more others who came in?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes—in plainclothes. I don’t recall any other uniformed officers there.

Mr. Hubert. And you do not recall, I suppose, or do not know now the names of any of those other people who might have come in?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I could not tell you who they were at all.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I think you have made a report of that interview, and a later one, and we will offer that in evidence a little later.

But I would like to ask you now if Ruby made any statement to your knowledge at that time, and that is the first interview you had with him, concerning whether he had been in the assembly room on the night of the 22d when Oswald was brought in so that the press could observe him?

Mr. Sorrels. Not at that time; no, sir. He did later.

Mr. Hubert. Did he at that time, the first interview, indicate anything, or say anything which would indicate what his motive or reason for his act was?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; and I might say that it was at that time that I found out his name was Ruby in place of Rubin, and he informed me his name had formerly been Rubinstein, and that he had had his name changed in Dallas.

I asked him—after I identified myself, I told him I would like to ask him some questions.

He said, “For newspapers or magazines?”

I said, “No; for myself.”

He appeared to be considering whether or not he was going to answer my questions, and I told him that I had just come from the third floor, and had been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak, specializing in tools, on Elm Street, and who is more or less known in the area because of the fact that he takes advantage of any opportunity to get free advertising. He at that time had an Edsel car, which is somewhat a rarity now, all painted up with “Honest Joe” on there. He wears jackets with “Honest Joe” on the back. He gets writeups in the paper, free advertising about different things he loans money on, like artificial limbs and things like that. And I had noticed Honest Joe across the street when I was looking out of Chief Batchelor’s office.

So I remarked to Jack Ruby, I said, “I just saw Honest Joe across the street over there, and I know a number of Jewish merchants here that you know.”

And Ruby said, “That is good enough for me. What is it you want to know?”

And I said these two words, “Jack—why?”

He said, “When this thing happened”—referring to the assassination, that he was in a newspaper office placing an ad for his business. That when he heard68 about the assassination, he had canceled his ad and had closed his business, and he had not done any business for 3 days. That he had been grieving about this thing. That on the Friday night he had gone to the synagogue and had heard a eulogy on the President. That his sister had recently been operated on, and that she has been hysterical. That when he saw that Mrs. Kennedy was going to have to appear for the trial, he thought to himself, why should she have to go through this ordeal for this no-good so-and-so.

Mr. Hubert. Did he use any words or did he say “no-good so-and-so”?

Mr. Sorrels. He used the word “son-of-a-bitch,” as I recall.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Sorrels. That he had heard about the letter to little Caroline, as I recall he mentioned. That he had been to the Western Union office to send a telegram, and that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it. And to use his words after that, “I guess I just had to show the world that a Jew has guts.”

I, of course, asked him when he was born. He told me in Chicago, March 25, 1911. That he operated the Carousel Club. And also a Vegas Club.

I asked him if anyone else was involved in this thing besides him, and he said that there was not.

I asked him if he knew Oswald before this thing happened, and he said he did not. He said that he had been a labor organizer years ago.

I asked him if he had ever been convicted of any offense or done any time, and he said no felony, that he had a JP release in 1954—in other words, he had been arrested but released by the JP in 1954.

I asked him what his father’s name was, and he said his name was Joseph Rubenstein.

I asked him where his father was born, and he said Russia.

I asked him if his mother was living, and he said no, that she was deceased, and that she was born in Poland. That he was of the Jewish faith.

I asked him if he had an attorney, and he said he had Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, as his attorney. And I recall, I believe that is about—that about terminated the conversation at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Did you not ask him why he had the gun with him?

Mr. Sorrels. Oh, yes; I did.

I asked him why he had that gun, and he said that he carried a gun because of the fact that he carried large quantities of money from his business, or from the club.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether he made any comment to you or in your hearing regarding the way he got into the basement area where he shot Oswald?

Mr. Sorrels. At that time, I do not. I do not recall asking him how he got in. I made no notes to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember him saying then anything about that he had intended to shoot Oswald and had formed that intent as early as Friday?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. He did not comment at all about his intent?

Mr. Sorrels. No; nothing except his response to my question as to “Jack, why?”, and then his relating as I have told you there a moment ago.

In other words, after I got——

Mr. Hubert. Did he mention anything about he intended to shoot him three times?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I did not hear that statement.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, the only comments that you heard him state which bear upon intent are those you have already made—that is to say, somebody had to do it, and also that he wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I did not hear him say that somebody had to do it. I heard him say that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it, felt he had to do it.

Mr. Hubert. But he did make the report saying he felt he had to show the world that a Jew had guts?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; that was very plain.

69 Mr. Hubert. Now, when you left, who left with you?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall, I went by myself, because when I got the information about his background, as I related here, and got his correct name and the information that he was operating alone on this thing, that no one else was involved with him, and he did not know Oswald, I then left in order to telephone that information to my headquarters in Washington.

Mr. Hubert. Can you state positively, therefore, to us that when you left Dean was in the room?

Mr. Sorrels. I think he must have been, because, as I recall it, I went down on the elevator by myself with the elevator operator.

Mr. Hubert. And Dean was in the room at all times you were talking to him?

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know.

Mr. Hubert. He did not leave with you?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Hubert. The two other officers who were in uniform I think you said, who were in the room at first, they were there all the time too?

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. They did not leave when you left?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And if anybody else came in afterwards, they did not leave when you left?

Mr. Sorrels. Not that I recall.

As I recall it, I think I went down alone, just the elevator operator and myself. Of course he had my sidearm. I had to get my sidearm from him. If there was anyone else there, I didn’t know.

Mr. Hubert. You had to get your sidearm——

Mr. Sorrels. From the elevator operator.

In other words, you are not permitted to carry a gun inside the jail.

Mr. Hubert. You saw him again later that day?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what time, under what circumstances, where, who was present, and so forth?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not remember just exactly the time, but it was some time after that when Jack Ruby was brought to Captain Fritz’ office, and Captain Fritz questioned him. I was present at that time and heard Captain Fritz interrogate him and made some notes and wrote them up. And I also at that time asked him a few questions myself, on some points I wanted to clarify.

Mr. Hubert. Were you there from the beginning of the interview between Ruby and Fritz, or did you arrive when it was already going on?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I was there at the beginning, because I heard Captain Fritz tell him of course he did not have to make a statement and so on and so forth, and Ruby said, “Well, I will answer your questions, but some of them I may not want to answer, and I will tell you so.”

Mr. Hubert. Were you introduced to him?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I had talked to him up in the jail there.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present during the entire interview?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, I was, on that one interview.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us who else was present?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I do not recall who else was there.

As I recall, there was other officers there in the room with Captain Fritz, but I do not recall who.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you say you had made notes as Captain Fritz was interrogating him. Do you have those notes?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; I have the notes here.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have notes also of the first interview?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; I read some of the stuff awhile ago from those notes.

Mr. Hubert. Is there any reason of security or otherwise why we could not get photostats of them for the record?

Mr. Sorrels. Not that I know of.

They may not mean much to anyone else, because it is just something jotted down to refresh my memory. They are not in very good order, or anything like that. And I don’t know whether it would mean too much to anyone else.

70 As far as I know——

Mr. Hubert. You have no objections?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. I take it those notes were made contemporaneously with the interviews, as they went on?

Mr. Sorrels. The ones of Ruby were; yes. Now, there is other stuff in here that had nothing to do with that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, we are interested of course only in the Ruby ones. But you testified a little while ago, and you seemed to be referring to notes, about what Ruby said, and what happened and so forth in the first interview, and then also in the second interview.

The notes that you referred to on both occasions were made contemporaneously with the interview. That is, they were not made at a later date?

Mr. Sorrels. That is correct. Now, there is other stuff in this notebook. Like I went up to the identification bureau to check on his record and so forth, and got his detailed description, and his fingerprint classification—that had nothing to do with the interview.

Mr. Griffin. I think we ought to take that to show what the practice was.

Mr. Hubert. If you do not mind, we will have them photostated, and after we get the photostats, we will get them an identification number.

Suppose you tell us, then, what occurred at the second interview?

Mr. Sorrels. Continuing with what I started out with a moment ago there, he—incidentally, I have noted here on this page where I made these notations “3:15 p.m.,” I assume that is possibly the time this interrogation took place.

I do have the date, “11-24-63.”

Mr. Hubert. The beginning of the notes relating to the interview in Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. It is your testimony now it would be your custom, as I understand it, to put the time at the beginning of the notes.

Mr. Sorrels. Ordinarily we do. In this other one, I did not put the time.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Sorrels. He gave his name as Jack Leon Ruby. He was asked about who his attorneys were, and he said that he was going to get Tom Howard and possibly Fred Brunner, and Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, and Jim Arnton. In other words, he was going to consider those and C. A. Droby.

He said that his name was changed in Dallas.

Now, I might put in here as an explanation that these are in response to questions that Captain Fritz was asking him. That he had this gun for 2 or 3 years. That George Senator was a roommate. That he came in the basement—the word “basement” is not shown here—he came in off Main Street, off of the ramp. That he felt that Oswald was a Red, and that he was alone on this assassination. That he saw Oswald in the showup room, or a similar room. That he knew who he was going for. That he did not want to be a martyr. That he had built up—was a buildup of grievance. That he had closed both clubs.

And I have the notation here “Vegas, Oaklawn, 3508, Carousel, 1312½ Commerce.” That he never saw the man before this thing took place, referring to the time that he was down at the police station, or city hall, rather. That he had been in the mail-order business. That he had been a labor organizer. That he was fond of the police department.

And when Police Officer Slick had been killed—that is all I have in the notes, but he said that he grieved about that.

That he had been around Saturday night, that people were laughing, no one was in mourning. That he had seen a eulogy on TV. That he saw the President’s brother, Bobby, on TV. That he guessed that there was created a moment of insanity. That he read about the letter that someone sent to little Caroline. That he knows the police department is wonderful. That his heart was with the police department. That he had hoped that if ever there was an opportunity—that he had hoped there was an opportunity for him to participate in a police battle, and he could be a part of it, meaning on the side of the police.

71 That his mother and dad were separated for 25 years. That he owes Uncle Sam a big piece of money. That he has love for the city of Dallas—for the city—he did not say Dallas. That his sister was operated on recently, she was hysterical about the President. That he went to the synagogue Friday night, heard a eulogy. And he had been grieving from that time on. That he went over to where the President was shot.

He wanted Captain Fritz to not hate him for what he had done. That when he was with the union, that one of his dear friends was killed, he came to the place where it happened. Leon Cook was the man. That Ruby’s mother told him to leave. That he was in the union Scrap Iron and Junk Dealers Association. That a man by the name of Jim Martin killed Cook. That Martin was political and had affiliations and got out of it.

That his roommate sold postcards. That his politics were Democratic, but he voted for the man.

That Sammy Ruby, a brother, who services washaterias. Another brother, Earl Ruby, in Detroit, who operated a cleaning plant. Another brother, Hyman Rubenstein, in Chicago, a salesman.

That he had also sold twist boards. That he would not think of committing a felony. That Tom O’Grady, a Catholic, formerly with the police department, had called him, that he had called Sims, who is one of the members of the police department, and wanted to bring sandwiches for them, because he knew they were having a tough time, and that Sims said that it wasn’t needed.

That he tried to locate—anyway, it was some of the TV people to give them to. And that is when he went to the showup room. And that is the first time that he had even seen anyone like that, referring to Oswald.

That he had seen Henry, meaning Henry Wade, the district attorney, talking to someone. That KLIF, the radio station there, had been good to him. No one else was involved.

That is my notes—“no one else involved”—meaning there was no one else involved with him, Ruby, in connection with the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. Now, was this a sort of monologue on his part, or response to questions?

Mr. Sorrels. No; as I said a moment ago, that was in response to questions.

Mr. Hubert. Now, thus far have you covered only the part of the interview which was conducted by Fritz, or was some of that the result of your questioning?

Mr. Sorrels. About the only thing that I recall questioning him about was possibly the correct address on the night club.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know if anyone asked him how he got in?

I think perhaps you have testified to that already.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, Captain Fritz asked him that.

Mr. Hubert. And he said he came in through the ramp, I believe you said.

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Did he state at any time during that interview about any intent to kill Oswald, to shoot him three times, and he is glad he was dead?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am going to show you a document which is actually a photostatic copy, or Xerox copy, of Commission Document 354, consisting of four pages. I am going to mark that document for identification as follows, to wit, “Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964,” and I am signing my name to that, all of which is on the right margin of the first page. I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second, third, and fourth pages. I ask you if you can identify this document, or rather, the photostatic copy? Would you state what it is?

Mr. Sorrels. This is a photocopy of a memorandum report titled “Assassination of President Kennedy,” the second line of that caption, “Jack Leon Ruby—slayer of Lee Harvey Oswald, charged with murder of President Kennedy.” Submitted by me, Forrest V. Sorrels, on February 3, 1964. And it consists of three full pages and a portion of—about a fifth of the fourth page.

Mr. Hubert. I think your signature, or, rather, a photostatic copy of your signature is on the front.

Mr. Sorrels. That is correct—on the front.

72 Mr. Hubert. That is the report that you submitted to your superiors?

Mr. Sorrels. In Washington.

Mr. Hubert. Which ultimately, of course, they sent. The report covers the events of November 24, is that right?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why it was filed on February 3?

Mr. Sorrels. Why it was written on February 3? I was instructed by Inspector Kelley to write up a memorandum on the interview that I had with Jack Ruby, shortly after Oswald was shot by Ruby, and also the interview that was had with Captain Fritz and Ruby at which I was present on the same date.

Mr. Hubert. When did you receive those instructions?

Mr. Sorrels. I cannot say exactly when I received them—probably within a day or two, or it could have been longer, because due to the press of other work and things arising out of the assassination, and its duties, the other duties, it was not written as soon as it should have been. And I may have been instructed some time before that to—as quick as I could to get the memorandum prepared.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean is that normally you would write such a report as this in any case?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, that is true.

Mr. Hubert. And normally it would be written sooner——

Mr. Sorrels. Sooner, that is right.

Mr. Hubert. Than 2 months or so afterwards?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. That is what I am asking—if you can tell us what was the cause of the delay.

Mr. Sorrels. Well, it is just the fact that we were burdened with all the additional work and things brought about by this assassination and investigation and so forth. I guess you could term it, possibly, negligence on my part for not just taking time off and doing it. That is about the only explanation I can give for that. It was not any willful intent to not write it or anything to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. There is no suggestion as to that.

Mr. Sorrels. I know. But that is just as a matter of explanation.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think it was written on that date because Mr. Kelley told you shortly before that date, to wit, February 3, that you should write it, or is it your impression that Mr. Kelley had told you long before it was written to write it?

Mr. Sorrels. There is a possibility that he may have told me before. I don’t recall it specifically. But I do know that Inspector Kelley had instructed me to write up the report.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Burt Griffin, the gentleman who is in the office now, concerning what you knew about what Ruby had said in your interviews with him?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; I do. And that refreshed my memory a bit, because I recall that Inspector Kelley, after I had talked to Mr. Griffin on the telephone—Inspector Kelley told me to get it written up, get it in writing, about the interview, and get it in. I remember that now, since you mention it.

Mr. Hubert. So that actually the report was written because Inspector Kelley instructed you to do so, and as you recall it he did so because of the conversation with Mr. Griffin?

Mr. Sorrels. I would surmise that, because, as I recall it now, either right after I got through talking to Mr. Griffin or shortly thereafter, Mr. Kelley did instruct me to get the interview, as I recall it, in a report, and get it in to him.

Mr. Hubert. But normally I think you said this report would have been written anyhow, without any suggestion by Mr. Kelley or anybody else?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; that is right.

Mr. Hubert. And it was your intent to write it, you say, but you didn’t get around to it?

Mr. Sorrels. That is about the best explanation I know to make on it.

Mr. Hubert. Now, do you recall a conversation with Chief Curry with respect to what you knew that Ruby had said?

Perhaps I can identify the conversation a bit more by saying to you that it73 had to do with a suggestion by you as to what the witnesses who were members of the police department might be called in the prosecution.

Mr. Sorrels. Oh, yes; I remember that.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us, first of all, when it was?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall, it was after the trial of Ruby had started, or along about the time it was beginning to start. I contacted Chief Curry and told him——

Mr. Hubert. Is this by phone, or was it by personal interview?

Mr. Sorrels. No; as I recall it was by phone—that there were two uniformed police officers that were present when I talked to Ruby on the fifth floor of the city jail on the morning of November 24, and that I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights and did not know whether or not the statement that he had made to me would be admissible in a trial in the event that the district attorney wanted to use it.

But——

Mr. Hubert. Had you been at that time consulted by the district attorney with reference to your being a possible witness?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall that I had.

Now, here is something that will establish that. The district attorney, Henry Wade, came to Washington—I don’t know whether it was in connection with talking to the Commission or what—but I saw him out at the airport, and he said to me——

Mr. Hubert. What airport?

Mr. Sorrels. This was before the trial—Love Field, in Dallas.

He was coming to Washington. And he said to me, “I want to talk to you when I get back about this case.”

And I said, “All right.”

And I did not hear anything more from Mr. Wade until the trial was actually in progress. He asked me to come to his office, which I did.

Mr. Hubert. That is Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. That is Henry Wade; yes, sir, the State district attorney that prosecuted Ruby for the murder of Oswald.

And, at that time, I related to him the conversation I had had with Ruby.

Mr. Hubert. Did you relate to him in that interview approximately what you have told us today about your interviews with Ruby?

Mr. Sorrels. Only the one up in the jail—I was talking about that. I didn’t go into detail about this one where Captain Fritz was interviewing him. That was only there at the jail.

Mr. Hubert. Is there any reason why one was talked about and not the other?

Mr. Sorrels. No; no particular reason, excepting that I just assumed that Captain Fritz would be the one if there was any testimony as to the second interview—would be the one to testify in that case.

Mr. Hubert. Did Wade know that you were present at both?

Mr. Sorrels. I would not say positive, but it seems to me that it was mentioned that I was present when we talked, but I am not positive on that.

Mr. Hubert. Did this interview with Wade occur before or after the telephone conversation with Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. No; that was afterwards. That was after the trial started.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, which was afterwards?

Mr. Sorrels. The interview with Mr. Wade.

Mr. Hubert. That came after the telephone conversation with Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did Mr. Wade consider using you as a witness?

Mr. Sorrels. He said if he needed me, he would let me know—in other words, would get in touch with me.

He said, “Now, the defense may subpoena you on this thing.”

And defense attorney—one of them was in on that case—did call me on the telephone. They wanted me to meet with either Tonahill or Belli, or maybe both of them. And I told them I was extremely busy.

He said, “How about having dinner with us?”

74 I said, “No; I don’t even have time to eat big dinners, I just grab a sandwich,” because I didn’t want to have dinner with them.

They called me a second time, because there had been a delay from the time they thought they were going to call me—they called me the second time and that is when they said something about having dinner with them later, and I said, no; I didn’t have time.

And at that time I told them I didn’t think I could do them any good. I said I can tell you in a short time what I could testify to.

He said, “Over the phone?”

I said, “Yes.”

So I told them about the interview with Ruby in the jail up in the jailhouse. I did not go into detail about the other, because I did not consider that my interview.

Mr. Hubert. You are talking there about the second interview?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you mention you had been present?

Mr. Sorrels. I do not recall that I did.

Mr. Hubert. Coming back to the Curry matter, what was your motivation in calling Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. I felt that the testimony or the statements, rather, made by Ruby right after he had shot Oswald would be of benefit to the district attorney in the prosecution of this case, the statements that he made as to the fact that he had worked himself into a state of insanity, also the statement that he guessed he had to show the world that a Jew had guts. And I also recall that during the questioning by Captain Fritz during the interview there that Ruby had made the remark, “Well, I would make a good actor, wouldn’t I?” to Captain Fritz. And I felt that possibly I could not testify, because of the fact that I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.

I thought of that before I talked to him, but the part that I was interested in, that is, determining whether or not anyone else was involved with him, or whether or not he knew Oswald, I didn’t consider—I mean I considered that if I warned him of his constitutional rights on that particular angle, that he might not even tell me that, and that is the reason I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because I felt it was of paramount interest to our Service to determine whether or not others were involved in this thing besides Ruby, and of paramount interest to determine whether or not Oswald and Ruby knew each other, or had any connection.

Mr. Hubert. Is it a custom, rule, or regulation of your Service that you must warn a person of his constitutional rights before you can question him?

Mr. Sorrels. On our investigations; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And is that a custom, or is it actually a published regulation?

Mr. Sorrels. Well, we know that we are going to get in serious trouble in court if we don’t do it, because that is always—the question is always asked, especially by a defense attorney, and so forth.

And we know that we are supposed to do it.

I try to adhere to it as much as I possibly can.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to determine is whether that is your only personal——

Mr. Sorrels. Oh, no.

Mr. Hubert. Way of doing things, or if it is an established policy of the Service, and if so, how is it established?

Mr. Sorrels. I think it is possibly a bit of both, because it is always my practice to tell these people that we cannot promise them anything—I am talking about the people we handle for prosecution in our investigations. And that, of course, they don’t have to tell us anything if they don’t want to. We make that known—because if we do not we know if there is a trial in a case, that that question is going to be asked, and we know that under our laws that a person is supposed to be warned of his constitutional rights before he is questioned.

Mr. Hubert. Is that your version of what the law is?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Coming back to the policy matter, I don’t expect you to be able75 to quote it to me now, but you have the impression there is something in writing in some manual of standard operations, instructions, that requires that you warn a person of his constitutional rights?

Mr. Sorrels. I just cannot answer that question, because I just can’t recall if there is a specific instruction of that particular thing or not.

But I do know that if we do not warn them of their constitutional rights, that we are—we will be in serious trouble in the trial of a case because if the question is asked, “Did you warn this man of his constitutional rights?” we have to tell the truth, and if we say “No, it wasn’t,” we would be jeopardizing our case.

Mr. Hubert. Now, at the time you called Curry, you had not spoken to Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. Not about the actual interview with Ruby at that time.

Mr. Hubert. At the time you talked to Curry, was that before or after you saw Wade at Love Field?

Mr. Sorrels. I can’t say for sure, but I think it was probably afterwards.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at is what motivated your call to him.

Mr. Sorrels. I probably didn’t make myself plain.

What motivated my call to him was that I figured that if I was called to Mr. Wade’s office to explain this thing to him, that the fact that I had not warned Ruby when I approached him to get this information—that I had not warned him of his constitutional rights, that I would not—it would not be good testimony. And my thought is that the two men who were—the two uniformed officers there, who were just standing by and had nothing to do with the questions and so forth, who heard what was said, they might be able to testify to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. So you wanted to get that information to someone in authority?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And the information was twofold—that you knew there was someone who could testify as to what Ruby had said, because you had heard Ruby say it in the presence of other people?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And, secondly, you were doubtful as to whether your testimony as such would be valuable?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know why you conveyed that information to Curry instead of Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. Because I did not know the names of the two police officers that were there. Two uniformed men.

Mr. Hubert. Well, was it your thought, then, if you advised Curry he would get the names of the men, and then convey it to Wade? I am trying to get what your motivation was.

Mr. Sorrels. Well, that is all I can recall as to the motivation. In other words, I don’t know that I thought that he would convey the information to Wade or not. I just cannot recall whether I had that in mind or not. But I did have in mind that possibly these two fellows, these two uniformed police officers, might be able to testify as to what Ruby said there when I would not be able to do so, because of the fact I had not warned him.

Mr. Hubert. And this conversation with Curry was in between the time you saw Wade at Love Field and the time you had the interview with him when he came back from Washington?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, it was. I won’t be positive about that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you told Wade, I think you said, the same thing, about your doubts as to your qualifications.

Mr. Sorrels. I believe that I did, if I recall it correctly, because I think when I was talking to Wade in his office, that that was mentioned.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any memo of the conversation you had with Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make any memo of the interview you had with Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What did Curry say to you when you told him this information?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, I think he said that he could possibly find out. It76 seemed to me like I talked to Chief Batchelor about that, also. I am not positive. But, anyway, I figured they would have a way of knowing who it was that was there, and so forth, at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Is there anyway you could fix for us more definitely the dates of these three occurrences—your meeting with Wade at Love Field, your telephone conversation with Curry, and your interview with Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. I think that I can on the one at Love Field, because, as I recall it, Miss Lynda Johnson was en route to Washington, D.C., and I went to Love Field to be there at the time they arrived in the event that they might need a car or something. I can establish that—February 16, 1964.

Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t know it now, but you could establish it?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I could establish it.

Mr. Hubert. I wonder if you would undertake to establish that for us.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; I would.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you think there is no other collateral way to establish the dates of the other matters?

Mr. Sorrels. I can—I think I can pretty well establish it. I will tell you why. At the time that I was in Wade’s office, and during the course of the time that I talked to him, this officer Dean came into Mr. Wade’s office and Mr. Wade asked me about if I was present when Ruby said such and such things—I don’t recall what it was now—I think about that he had been thinking for 2 or 3 days about killing this fellow, or words to that effect, and I told him I was not. And it was right after that that Dean testified in that case. And I think I can establish about pretty close to what day it was. He either testified that day or the following day, as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. What interval of time would have elapsed between your meeting Wade at the airport and the date of the interview?

Mr. Sorrels. Oh, I think that would have been probably—it is just hard to estimate the time, but it was before the trial of Ruby had ever even begun. It would just be a guess on my part, but I would say it was probably maybe 2 or 3 weeks, or maybe even more.

Mr. Hubert. Well, can you fix for us—put it this way: Can you fix for us whether the Curry conversation was closer to the time you met Wade at Love Field than it was to the time you interviewed Wade, or Wade interviewed you?

Mr. Sorrels. I just don’t believe I can. It seems to me like it was shortly after I had seen Mr. Wade. I may be wrong about that. But I know the thought occurred to me, well, if I am going to be called down on that thing, I don’t think they are going to be able to accept my testimony, because of the fact that Ruby wasn’t warned. And so it was that time that I thought about maybe getting the names of these other two officers who could possibly remember the conversation, and they were standbys and were not the ones actually in the questioning.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember telling Mr. Griffin here that you would call the Dallas Police Department—I think that was in a telephone conversation he had with you—to find out the names of the people?

Mr. Sorrels. It seems that I did mention to Mr. Griffin, when he was talking to me on the phone, that there were others present, and that I could possibly find out their names, and it seems to me that Mr. Griffin said something about, “Well, no; don’t do that,” or “It is not necessary.”

Mr. Hubert. Well, let me ask you this: Would that have been before you called Curry, or afterwards?

Mr. Sorrels. Let me see now. I think that would have been before.

Mr. Hubert. Well, perhaps it is this. Perhaps it was that when you had a personal conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas that you told him that you had made a call to ascertain the names of these people.

Mr. Sorrels. It could have been.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make such a call?

Mr. Sorrels. Did I?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Sorrels. I made a call. I am not sure it was to Chief Curry. It seems to me I remember talking to Chief Batchelor on that. Now, I may have mentioned77 it to Chief Curry, too. But it seems to me like I remember talking to Chief Batchelor.

Mr. Hubert. About the existence of some officers?

Mr. Sorrels. To find out who the uniformed officers were who were there.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, would that conversation with Chief Batchelor be before the Curry conversation or afterwards?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t recall that I made that conversation to both of them or not. Now, I am just not positive about that. But I do recall having made that call for the specific purpose of getting somebody that was there, those two uniformed officers, that could have heard that conversation, that could have testified in the case down there.

Mr. Hubert. Is it possible that that aspect of the matter was part of the call to Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. I just don’t remember—I just don’t remember. But I know that I did talk to either Curry or Chief Batchelor, and I am inclined to think it was Chief Batchelor. Now, when you mentioned awhile ago about the call to Curry, I, of course, said “yes” on that, because I was thinking about the call. But since thinking about it, I am not sure that it was Chief Curry that I talked to at all about that particular angle. But I do know that I talked to Chief Batchelor about it. I know that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s see if we can clarify it. There is no doubt about it that there was one telephone call made to a high police official.

Mr. Sorrels. That is what I recall.

Mr. Hubert. You are definite that one call was made to Batchelor.

Mr. Sorrels. If my memory serves me right, it seems that I did talk to Batchelor.

Now, whether I talked to Chief Curry on that particular thing or not, I am not too positive.

Mr. Hubert. So that the matter stands that you are not certain that there was the second telephone call with Curry at all?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t——

Mr. Hubert. Well, would you have covered with Batchelor the material that we have talked about that you say you did cover with Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. Now, what material is that?

Mr. Hubert. Well, such as that you were doubtful about your ability to testify, and so forth.

Mr. Sorrels. Not necessarily. In other words, if it was Batchelor that I called, then I would have, I think, have explained it to him. If it had been Curry I called, I would explain it to him—as to why I was wanting these names, or given that information to them.

Mr. Hubert. What I am trying to get at, you see, is whether or not there were two calls.

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t recall that there were two calls. I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. And you are positive you spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. Sorrels. It seems that I remember talking to Chief Batchelor about it, because it seems that I can remember that he said, “I am sure that we can find out that information,” or words to that effect.

Mr. Hubert. Well, if there was only one call—that is to say, if you are doubtful about two, and you do remember definitely Batchelor, then the one call would have to be Batchelor, would it not?

Mr. Sorrels. That is correct; yes.

Mr. Smith. I think there is a lack of meeting of the minds here.

Mr. Hubert. Would you try to help me out? I would appreciate it.

Mr. Smith. Let me see if I can clarify this. Was there definitely a conversation with Curry about whether you would be able to testify because of your failure to warn Ruby of his constitutional rights?

Mr. Sorrels. I just cannot say positively that there was. I do know that I made a phone call for the specific purpose of informing them of the fact that these two uniformed police officers were there and could have heard the conversation that I had with Ruby, and as my memory serves me it seems that was Chief Batchelor. Now, I may have had conversations with Chief Curry. We have talked about this thing from many, many different angles from time to time.

78 Mr. Smith. Let me ask it a different way.

Was there one call to obtain the names of the men, uniformed policemen, who were in the room when you interrogated Ruby, and a second call concerning the question of whether you could testify, or were these two subjects covered in one telephone conversation?

Mr. Sorrels. No; as I recall it, there was only one conversation on it at that time.

Mr. Smith. All right. And you don’t know, then, for sure, whether it was to Chief Batchelor or to Chief Curry?

Mr. Sorrels. I would say that, if my memory serves me right, it seems to me like it was Chief Batchelor. There were many, many conversations about this case from many angles. But I know I was concerned when Henry Wade indicated I was going to be called as a witness down there, because I felt that they should know that, and I think as I recall it when he talked to me I told him about those two uniformed officers being there.

Mr. Hubert. Well, whoever you talked to, did that person, whether it was Curry or Batchelor, indicate that he was not aware of the information you were giving him?

Mr. Sorrels. Now, what information?

Mr. Hubert. About the statements made by Ruby. And that you had been present.

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. Hubert. You have already adverted to the telephone call that you had from Mr. Griffin.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Did you make the telephone call to Curry or Batchelor as a result of the conversation you had with Mr. Griffin?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. That was independent? You think it was before?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t think it was before, because as I recall it, this conversation with Mr. Griffin was quite some time before.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, I call your attention to the fact that on the exhibit which has been identified as Commission Document 354, as to which you have already testified, there is no mention of the names of the officers who were present, and that is dated February 3, 1964. Does that help you to recollect whether you then got interested in who those people were and called Batchelor or Curry, or both?

Mr. Sorrels. It probably brought it to my mind that there were other people present there, and I think I so informed Mr. Griffin on the telephone. But that is not what prompted me to make the call about the two uniformed officers, because that had no bearing on what I told Mr. Griffin. What he was asking me over the telephone is what I had heard Ruby say. And I told him what I had heard Ruby say. And he had asked me about certain things that I did not recall hearing Ruby say, and I told him so at the time. And when I was in District Attorney Wade’s office, the question was asked of me by Mr. Wade as to whether or not certain statements alleged to have been made by Ruby were made to Officer Dean in my presence, and I told him I did not hear anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. Well, perhaps another approach would be this: You were interested or became interested sometime in finding out the names of these people. Isn’t that a fact?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes; but only for that particular purpose.

Mr. Hubert. And you also wanted to convey the information that you were doubtful whether you would qualify, as you put it, as a witness, because you had failed to warn. And that that thought came into your mind after Wade indicated that you might be a witness.

Mr. Sorrels. That is as I recall it.

Mr. Hubert. And that, therefore, you called someone. Now, were those two things in the same conversation?

Mr. Sorrels. You mean about——

Mr. Hubert. The inquiry as to the names, who these people were, and to79 convey the information that you were worried about your own qualifications if you should be considered.

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. You think there were two conversations?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Just one?

Mr. Sorrels. As far as I know there would be one. Because that is the only interest I had. As I recall it, I told Mr. Griffin over the telephone that there were others present, and I could possibly find out who they were, and for that purpose that he was trying to bring out on the telephone conversation, and as I recall it he told me, “No; don’t do that.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you find out who the two people were?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I could not tell you to this day who they are.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, whoever you spoke to, Batchelor or Curry, who said they would let you know——

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t think it was my purpose in finding out who they were for my own benefit. That wasn’t the point at all. It was my thought that they should have information for the district attorney—period.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were not interested in knowing who they were yourself? You wanted them to know of the fact that there were two officers there?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. And that you were worried about your own qualifications?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us approximately the lapse of time, if you can remember it, between your conversation with Mr. Griffin and your conversation with either Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry that you have been speaking of?

Mr. Sorrels. Well, I would say it was quite some time afterwards, because this conversation—I don’t remember the date I had it with Mr. Griffin, but it was prior to the writing of this memorandum. And it was quite some time after that that the trial ever started. And when Mr. Wade saw me at the airport and said, “I want to see you and talk to you about this case,” the trial, of course, had not started at that time. So it was quite some time afterwards.

Mr. Hubert. Well, what did Curry or Batchelor, whoever it was, tell you when you told him of this?

Mr. Sorrels. As I recall it, they said they could get the information. That is all that I recall that they said.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when speaking to Wade at the interview whether you adverted to the conversation you had had over the telephone with either Batchelor or Wade, or possibly both?

Mr. Sorrels. No; I don’t recall that that was mentioned.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have any other conversation with any officers in the police department? I mean about this aspect that we are talking about now?

Mr. Sorrels. I saw Captain Fritz at the district attorney’s office the day that I was down there and talked to him, and I cannot recall about whether or not there was a conversation with him about who was present at that time or not, because I remember discussing with Captain Fritz at that time that I didn’t think my testimony would be much benefit to the prosecution on that, or if it would be admissible because of the fact I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.

Mr. Hubert. When was that conversation?

Mr. Sorrels. That was the same time I was talking to Mr. Wade at his office. This is when the trial of Ruby was actually in progress.

Mr. Hubert. Was Fritz in the office?

Mr. Sorrels. He was in and out of there. He had walked in and walked out. And I may have mentioned to him that—the fact that there was other officers there besides Dean and myself. And I told Mr. Wade in Dean’s presence that certain things that Mr. Wade had asked me about, about Ruby saying that he had been—I think somebody had been thinking 3 days about shooting this fellow—that I heard no such statement, that I had left when I got the information I wanted. In other words, when I was questioning Ruby, as I recall it, nobody was asking him any questions except me, and when I got through I left.

80 Mr. Hubert. When did you find out that Dean and Archer had said or were going to say that they heard Ruby say that he had intended to kill him 3 days before?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t know that Archer said that—I don’t remember his name.

Mr. Hubert. Dean—when did you learn that?

Mr. Sorrels. When Mr. Griffin asked me over the telephone if certain statements were made, and I told him, in conversation with him, the statements that Ruby had made to me, and he asked me if certain other statements were made, and I said not to my knowledge, “I don’t remember anything like that,” and one of them was about whether or not Ruby came down the ramp, and I told him at that time I didn’t recall that statement having been made, and I didn’t believe that statement was made in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. I thought you said in the interview with Wade you told him you did not hear Ruby say that he had formed the intent to kill Oswald on Friday.

Mr. Sorrels. No, no.

Mr. Hubert. I am sorry.

Mr. Sorrels. No; I didn’t hear that. Ruby didn’t say that. I told Wade that.

Mr. Hubert. You did tell Wade that? Did Wade ask you that?

Mr. Sorrels. He asked me if certain statements were made, and I told him no, not in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you had not heard of that even until Wade brought it to your attention?

Mr. Sorrels. No—not that part. The thing that Mr. Griffin was asking me, I think, as I recall it, was about the ramp.

Mr. Hubert. Wade asked you did you hear Ruby say, “I intended to kill him since Friday night,” and your answer was “No; I didn’t.”

Mr. Sorrels. No; I didn’t hear it.

Mr. Hubert. Did Mr. Griffin mention in the telephone conversation he had with you statements allegedly made, or knowledge allegedly in the possession of Dean in regard to what Ruby had said?

Mr. Sorrels. I remember specifically there was a statement about him coming down the ramp. I remember that. And it seems that—I wouldn’t be positive about that, but it seemed like there was something else that Dean was supposed to have said in my presence, and I told him no I didn’t hear anything like that.

Mr. Hubert. I had thought you said that you told Wade that you had not heard Dean say any such thing. But he asked you?

Mr. Sorrels. He asked me. No—you see, he had talked to Dean beforehand, you see, about this. And I never had talked to Dean. As a matter of fact, I had not seen him.

Mr. Smith. I might say it was my impression at one time that Mr. Sorrels said or indicated that in his conversation with Mr. Griffin, this question about Ruby having premeditated this for 3 days came out in this conversation with Griffin. At least I got that impression. But do I understand it now to be clarified that that particular point did not come out in your conversation with Griffin?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t think on the telephone conversation at that time.

Mr. Smith. It came out in your conversation with——

Mr. Sorrels. With Wade.

Mr. Smith. With Wade?

Mr. Sorrels. That is right. But I think—can this be off the record?

Mr. Hubert. I would rather it go on.

Mr. Sorrels. All right. We will have it on the record. I have had other conversations with Mr. Griffin subsequent to that time, and personally when he was there at Dallas, in which I believe that there was some question about that statement. But as I recall it now, the first conversation over the telephone was specifically about the ramp incident. And I remember him emphasizing that. And I recall if such a statement was said I don’t remember it, and I just don’t believe it was said in my presence.

Mr. Hubert. In regard to the conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas, do you recall a conversation which I think I can specifically state would have been on the morning of Wednesday, March 25—that is to say the morning after Dean had been deposed. And let it be noted that Dean was deposed on the night of81 March 24. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Griffin about what Dean had said then, and that you then told Mr. Griffin what your version of it was, and had in fact—he asked you to prepare a memorandum or something for him, so that there would be a record of what he had told him?

Mr. Sorrels. Along about this same thing?

Mr. Hubert. Yes, about this same matter, revolving around Dean and Dean’s testimony about what Ruby had said.

Mr. Sorrels. I remember that there was a conversation. It seems like I do have a recollection. It slipped my mind. But since you mention something about a memo—and you left rather suddenly, Mr. Griffin, as I recall it, right after that.

Mr. Hubert. That is on the 27th? The question is—you have not written a memo?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Was there any reason why?

Mr. Sorrels. No. As a matter of fact, it just slipped my mind, I guess, because I cannot recall now just exactly what the memo was. But since he mentioned that, it seems I do recall something about something I told him, and he said, “Write me a memo about it.”

Mr. Hubert. Was Inspector Kelley present during your interrogation of Oswald on Sunday morning for about 15 or 20 minutes, I think you said?

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t believe so. He might have been. But I don’t recall that he was there.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have already testified that you and Mr. Kelley went to Mr. Batchelor’s office after Oswald left on Sunday morning.

Mr. Sorrels. It is my recollection that we did go there together.

Mr. Hubert. Was anybody else there?

Mr. Sorrels. If we didn’t, I met him up there.

Mr. Hubert. Was anybody else there?

Mr. Sorrels. At the interview?

Mr. Hubert. No, when you left, when Oswald left to go down to the basement, you testified that you went with somebody, I think it was Tom Kelley—went into Batchelor’s office and looked out to watch the scene.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. I think that was Tom Kelley there. Was anyone else there?

Mr. Sorrels. There was a number of officers around there.

I don’t recall who all was there. I just don’t recall who all was there.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know how many officers or detectives were in Fritz’ office after Ruby had shot Oswald and had been brought up to Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. No, I don’t. There was a number of them around there.

Mr. Hubert. Do you have any recollection that Dean was taken to escort you up to Captain Fritz’ office?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, I remember Dean went up the elevator with me.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember any comment that Dean made in Wade’s office?

Mr. Sorrels. The only comment that I can remember that he made is when Mr. Wade asked me if certain things were said by Ruby when I was talking to him in the jail on the morning of November 24, when Dean was there, and I told him no, that that statement was not made in my presence, I did not recall any statement like that. And Dean said, “Well, maybe it was, after you left.” And I said, “Well, if it was—if the statement was made, it would have had to be after I left, because I don’t recall any statement like that.”

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever find out how Wade or Curry or the police found out about what Dean ultimately said?

Mr. Sorrels. Will you read that question again?

Mr. Hubert. I said, did you ever find out how Wade and/or the police found out themselves what Dean ultimately testified to?

Mr. Sorrels. No, I don’t know anything about that—unless it is in the court records down there in his testimony at the trial. Now, whether or not they had talked to him before what his testimony would be, I could not say about that, I don’t know.

Mr. Hubert. Did Wade or anyone else ever ask you to identify the two uniformed officers?

82 Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever consult with any of your superior officers in your own service in regard to Wade’s request that you testify?

Mr. Sorrels. I told Inspector Kelley that I might get involved in this thing, and he said, “Well, if you are subpenaed you will just have to testify what you know about it.”

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t make a written report?

Mr. Sorrels. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Was FBI Agent Hall present during the Fritz’ interview?

Mr. Sorrels. I couldn’t say. I don’t think I know Agent Hall if he walked in the door. I don’t recall ever having met him.

Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear Ruby say, “You all won’t believe this, but I didn’t have this planned, and I couldn’t have done it better if I had planned it,” or something to that effect?

Mr. Sorrels. No.

Mr. Hubert. Now——

Mr. Sorrels. I don’t recall any statement like that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Stern is going to take over, and I am going to ask him to handle the identification of your notes.

(Mr. Hubert left. Mr. Stern requested Mr. Griffin to handle the identification of documents.)

Mr. Griffin. Let me state that for the limited purpose of having Agent Sorrels identify three sets of documents I am going to ask a series of questions of Agent Sorrels.

Mr. Sorrels, I want to hand you a Xerox copy of a document which is a part of our files, and numbered Commission No. 354, and is your Secret Service serial 1,007, consisting of four pages, which you have previously identified, and Mr. Hubert has marked “Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964,” and signed Leon D. Hubert.

I have added the additional designation “Exhibit 1,” on the first page of this four page exhibit. I want you to look at that and tell me if that is in fact the same exhibit you identified previously as I have described it.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification as deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C. This exhibit consists of four different pages which I have numbered consecutively Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D, and purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you made of the interview that took place with Jack Ruby in Captain Fritz’ office at 3:15 on November 24, 1963.

Would you examine Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D and compare them with the pages of your notebook which you have referred to previously in the deposition, and tell us if that is a true and exact copy of all of the notes that you have that pertain to the 3:15 interview with Jack Ruby?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C., which is a document consisting of three pages, which I have numbered consecutively Exhibit 3-A, Exhibit 3-B, Exhibit 3-C. This exhibit purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you took at an interview with Jack Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell shortly after Ruby shot Lee Oswald on November 24. I want you to compare these exhibits to pages which you have testified to previously are in your notebook, and tell me if Exhibits 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C are true and exact copies of those pages which appear in your notebook?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, they are. But there is portions that do not pertain to the interview with Ruby in the Dallas City Jail on the morning of November 24, 1963—but certain portions happen to be on the same page as the notes made at that time were made.

Mr. Griffin. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you tell us if that portion which pertains to Ruby—the Ruby interview in the jail cell, and appears on that page, follows consecutively from some point on that page?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, from about the center of the page, below a wavy line drawn83 across it, continuing on the second page, marked Exhibit 3-B, and the third page marked Exhibit 3-C, down to the lower portion ending with “deceased mother.”

Mr. Griffin. All right. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you read the first two lines on Exhibit 3-A that consist of the notes taken at your interview with Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell?

Mr. Sorrels. “Chicago, 3-25-1911, Jack Ruby (Rubenstein), Entertainment, Carousel Club. Had business closed for 3 days.”

Mr. Griffin. Now, let me hand you again Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy, to sign your name on the first page of that exhibit.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, it is.

Mr. Griffin. Would you sign your name, then, on the first page of the exhibit?

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 2-A, B and C, and D, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy to sign your name on the first page of Exhibit 2-A.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes.

Mr. Griffin. Let me hand you, Mr. Sorrels, Exhibit 3-A, B, and C, and ask you the same question with respect to that, and ask you to do the same thing.

Mr. Sorrels. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, let the record reflect that I am putting my initials, BWG, on pages 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D. Let the record reflect I have done the same thing with pages 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Smith, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Sorrels at this stage of his deposition, to clarify any points on the record?

Mr. Smith. Yes, just with respect to one point.

Mr. Stern. Please go ahead.

Mr. Smith. Mr. Sorrels, you testified that in your interview with Jack Ruby in the jail, you did not warn him of his constitutional rights. Was this due to oversight on your part?

Mr. Sorrels. No, it was not.

Mr. Smith. Will you state, then, the reason why you did not do so?

Mr. Sorrels. My purpose in getting to Jack Ruby and talking to him as quickly as I did was to determine whether or not he was involved with anyone else in connection with the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also to determine whether or not Jack Ruby had any connection or association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because insofar as I was concerned at this particular interview, my conversation with him was not—strike was not—had no bearing insofar as the murder case against Jack Ruby was concerned.

My purpose was trying to obtain information for my service to determine whether or not there were others involved in this case that would be of concern to the Secret Service in connection with their protective duties of the President of the United States and the Vice President.

Mr. Stern. Is there anything else, Mr. Smith, you would like to cover?

Mr. Smith. No. Thank you.

Mr. Stern. Mr. Sorrels, you have had a lengthy session here today. If it is convenient for you, I would prefer to carry on that part of it that I am interested in tomorrow morning, rather than to try to finish late today. Would that be convenient for you?

Mr. Sorrels. That is satisfactory for me, yes.

Mr. Stern. Fine. Why don’t we suspend now and resume in the morning.

The testimony of Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf was taken at 3:25 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

84 Mr. Hubert. The deposition of Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf [spelling] B-i-e-b-e-r-d-o-r-f. Right?

Dr. Bieberdorf. That’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. Dr. Bieberdorf, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Dr. Bieberdorf, the nature of the inquiry is to ascertain the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and then any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Doctor, I think you have received a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was that letter received by you in excess of 3 days from today?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right, you are appearing here as a consequence of that letter?

Dr. Bieberdorf. That’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Please state your name, sir.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Frederick Adolph Bieberdorf.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Twenty-five.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Dr. Bieberdorf. 8603 Midway Road, Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation?

Dr. Bieberdorf. At present, fourth-year medical student.

Mr. Hubert. Where?

Dr. Bieberdorf. At Southwestern Medical School, University of Texas.

Mr. Hubert. Did you happen to be in the basement of the jail of the Dallas police, on the morning of November 24, 1963?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I was.

Mr. Hubert. In what capacity?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I was, at that time, employed by the city of Dallas, city health department, as first aid attendant for the—I was employed at that time as first aid attendant by the city of Dallas, city health department. The nature of this job is as follows: Mainly administering first aid and emergency medical care to prisoners within the city jail, or prisoners that they’ve brought in.

Mr. Hubert. Had you been doing that sort of work for some time?

Dr. Bieberdorf. A little bit over a year.

Mr. Hubert. You say fourth year at the Southwestern University, does that mean that you are a senior?

Dr. Bieberdorf. That’s right. I graduate in June.

Mr. Hubert. You will receive a M.D. in June?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. In June of 1964?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. What time did you go on duty that day?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I arrived down there about 9:30 in the morning.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Doctor, I have shown you, and I believe you have read what purports to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Mabey and Hughes on December 5, 1963, which I am now marking for identification on the first page by writing as follows: “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5123,85 Deposition of Dr. Fred Bieberdorf.” I am signing my own name on the first page; on the second page I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner, the same with the third and the same with the fourth and last. In order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document, I ask you please to sign your name under my signature, or by it, and place your initials also on the subsequent pages. Now, Doctor, addressing ourselves to the exhibit marked now for identification as 5123, I ask you if you have read it?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I have read it.

Mr. Hubert. Is it correct and true?

Dr. Bieberdorf. In the main, it is. There are a few corrections in it and additions that I would like to make.

Mr. Hubert. Very well. Suppose that we do it this way. If you can identify by page, paragraph and sentence that part which you need to have modified by reading in quotes, as it were, stating then for the record, “quote, unquote,” and then make the comment. I think that the record will be better in that way.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Okay. First of all, throughout this document my last name is misspelled.

Mr. Hubert. Well, let’s see. To get that straight, your last name is [spelling] B-i-e-b-e-r-d-o-r-f?

Dr. Bieberdorf. And it is spelled “B-e-i,” instead of B-i-e.

Mr. Hubert. I see.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Okay. And on page 1, paragraph 2, on the second sentence of that paragraph that reads, “He stated he relieved a Bill Hall, former classmate, who had been on duty since noon of the previous day.”

Mr. Hubert. Now, what is the comment you have to make about that?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Well, he is not a classmate. He is a medical student, but he is not a classmate of mine.

Mr. Hubert. Otherwise, the sentence is correct?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Otherwise it is correct. Okay. In that same—on page 1, second paragraph, the sixth sentence, which reads, “He advised that from his position he had an unobstructed view of the basement parking area and that he did not notice if there were any doors between them and the basement area.”

The position that they are talking about that has been previously identified, I did not have what you would call an unobstructed view of the area, due to the presence of somewhere around 20, somewhere between 15 and 20 newsmen that were standing between me and the basement parking area.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you standing?

Does that Exhibit 5123, state?

Dr. Bieberdorf. It states that I was standing in the basement at an intersection of the hallway beneath the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t that correct?

Dr. Bieberdorf. That is correct, and I suppose that is the only intersection of hallways underneath the city hall to the basement. I can assure you on this [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Yes. All right, now, in connection with your explanation of the sentence you have just quoted, I want to ask you what your position was in the jail basement area. Now, you have examined the mockup which is in this room, and in order to make a permanent record of where you pointed out you were, I am marking a chart of the basement as follows: “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5124. Deposition of Dr. Fred Bieberdorf.” I am signing my name, and below that, and in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document, I ask you to sign your name below mine, and then correlating the mockup and the chart marked Exhibit 5124, ask you to place an “X” and encircle the “X” as to the position you were standing at the time of the shooting.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Let me look at this. Yes, that is the exact way. This is accurate [indicating].

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have marked——

Dr. Bieberdorf. I drew in another line to represent the wall around the corner.

Mr. Hubert. You have also placed an “X” in your own handwriting, and I am writing now the following: “Position of Dr. Bieberdorf at the time of shooting.”

86 I am encircling that language and connecting it by a line with the circle drawn by Dr. Bieberdorf. All right. Now, have you any other comments to make about Document Exhibit 5123?

Dr. Bieberdorf. A few more minor ones. Several more minor ones.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Page 1, second paragraph, the last sentence on that page states “He stated that he then immediately saw Ruby laying faceup in the jail office lobby, approximately 10 feet inside the jail lobby door.”

Mr. Hubert. Now, your comment.

Dr. Bieberdorf. My comment is that I did see Ruby’s feet, at least, but I did not notice whether he was lying faceup or facedown. He was surrounded by a number of police officers.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Ruby at the time?

Dr. Bieberdorf. No, I didn’t have any idea who it was, and that is the reason that I got so close there, that I thought that this was Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. You thought it was the man who had been shot?

Dr. Bieberdorf. All right. Correction, not Oswald, but the person who had been shot. At the time I did not know who had been shot, if, any shot—if, indeed it had been a shot and I did not get a look at the person to see his face, or even to see whether he was lying faceup or facedown. I could just see him on the floor surrounded by a number of men.

Mr. Hubert. All right, any other modifications or corrections?

Dr. Bieberdorf. On page 2, it is actually a continuation of the same sentence that ends on page 1. On page 2, “And he then saw Oswald in the same position.”

Well, “same position,” refers to “faceup,” and indeed, Oswald was faceup, but if this is an amendment where Ruby is no longer faceup, better change this to “faceup.”

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Okay. On page 2, the first paragraph; about the third sentence there begins, “He noticed that someone had pulled Oswald’s shirt up to his chest, and he could see a puncture wound in the left side of Oswald’s stomach just below the rib cage.”

He did have this puncture wound on his left side, but it wasn’t below his rib cage. It was—I’d like to correct that “stomach”. Just below the rib cage to the left side of his lower chest. I don’t really—I didn’t count what rib it was under, but I believe it was between the two ribs, probably down just below the fifth or sixth.

Mr. Hubert. All right, any others?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Oh; I skipped one or two. Excuse me. Back on page 1, the second paragraph on page 1, the sentence that begins near the bottom of the page, that begins: “He stated this took him several minutes due to the confusion and by the time he reached the general vicinity of the location—”. This “several minutes,” I don’t believe is accurate. I don’t recall whether I said several minutes at the time. I later—well, I think it was a matter of, say, “something like 1 to 2 minutes, rather than several minutes” and again, in the same paragraph, next to last sentence on the page that begins, “He stated he searched the immediate area for several minutes before proceeding.”

I think this, again, is way too long and had better read, “a few seconds,” than several minutes.

Mr. Hubert. Any other corrections?

Dr. Bieberdorf. On page 2, second paragraph, the third sentence which is the last sentence, “He stated the latter two,” referring to the ambulance driver and his assistant, “—ambulance driver and his assistant were riding in the front seat, and the two detectives were in a seat immediately behind the front seat, and Detective Leavelle was sitting immediately to his left in the rear of the ambulance.” The two detectives, and rather than “sitting in the seat in—immediately behind the front seat,” they were behind—just inside the tailgate of the ambulance, about Oswald’s feet, and Officer Leavelle and myself were sitting in the seat directly behind the front seat.

You earlier made the query about when I had left him. It states in here—on page 2, the last sentence of the last paragraph, “He stated 2 minutes after entering the emergency room, also known as the trauma room, Oswald was87 removed to the operating room.” He was removed to the operating room via an elevator, and at that point that was the point I last saw him.

Mr. Hubert. Was he alive at that point?

Dr. Bieberdorf. He was still alive at that time. I am just going by hearsay, now. He was said to have died—well, he was still moving around at that time, so, he was definitely alive.

Mr. Hubert. You were with him in the ambulance all the way through?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And when he got to the ambulance you saw signs of life?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Although, I did not until we got about halfway to Parkland.

Mr. Hubert. You thought he was dead?

Dr. Bieberdorf. He—I surmised he was dead until he started moving a little bit.

Mr. Hubert. Did he make any statement at all?

Dr. Bieberdorf. He did not utter any sound at all, that I heard.

Mr. Hubert. Any other corrections?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Let’s see. On page 3, the second paragraph, “Bieberdorf states that he was not acquainted with Jack Ruby, but that he did interview Ruby in the police jail on Sunday, November 24, at about 4 or 5 p.m.”

This time—I looked it up at a later date, and it was at exactly 2:05 p.m., rather than my estimation at that time of 4 or 5 p.m.

Mr. Hubert. All right, have you any other on that document 5123?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Well, there are a few more.

Mr. Hubert. Otherwise, it stated correctly the nature of the physical examination that you gave to Ruby and the findings?

Dr. Bieberdorf. The next sentence that follows that is correct, but then there is another. That same paragraph, the last sentence in this paragraph reads, “Bieberdorf states that he gave Ruby a physical examination at this time in order to insure Ruby had not concealed any weapon on his person.”

This is not correct here. Later on in the afternoon of November 24, I was asked by the police or Lieutenant—I believe in charge of the jail at that time, to go upstairs and at the request of detectives and one of the FBI agents, I performed a rectal examination on him to make sure he had not smuggled—or to see if he had brought anything in on his person.

This was at 6 p.m., so, I did see Ruby on two occasions. One at 2:05 and one at 6. I think that report tends to indicate it was only one.

Mr. Hubert. It really was two, and you have explained it.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Okay, on page 3, the last paragraph, second sentence, “He stated he had no knowledge of security measures in effect in the basement on November 24, 1963, other than the fact that he was asked to remove himself from the basement, and he assumed only police officers and press men were allowed to remain.” I think that sentence ought to be deleted and changed to something like: “I was asked to remove myself from the basement parking area at—prior to Oswald’s being moved, and was told by police officers at that time that only police personnel were being allowed in the area, and I, of course, later saw that press men were able to gain access to the area by presenting their credentials.”

And that is, I think, the only correction.

Mr. Hubert. About what time did you move from the first aid——

Dr. Bieberdorf. 9:45. It states that earlier in here. States that on the first page.

Mr. Hubert. Did you remain in the position indicated by you on the chart, which has been identified as Exhibit 5124, all that while? In other words, you were told by the police to leave the——

Dr. Bieberdorf. To leave the parking area, and I left there, and at the time of the shooting I was at that particular spot.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say, the spot that——

Dr. Bieberdorf. That I marked on that you have marked the—No. 5124.

Mr. Hubert. Between the time that you left and the time of the shooting, where were you?

88 Dr. Bieberdorf. I was, the majority of the time, down at the subbasement in the locker room. I was no closer to the spot that Oswald was shot—at which Oswald was shot than I was at the time of the shooting, and no time was I—well, with the exception of crossing through about 9:45.

Mr. Hubert. Now, when you left the first aid room in the bottom floor, did you leave anybody in there? Was there anyone in those rooms at that time?

Dr. Bieberdorf. There was no one in the room. It was empty. The fellow that I had relieved left the building.

Mr. Hubert. Were those doors locked?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Those doors were locked, and I had a key to them. The police officer, just before I left, looked in the rooms, searched them. I unlocked the rooms for them. Now, I don’t know——

Mr. Hubert. To your knowledge, was there anyone in those rooms at all?

Dr. Bieberdorf. There was nobody in those rooms, and I had the only key that is commonly used to open those rooms, other than the keys that the janitors have.

Mr. Hubert. And all doors were locked and you had a key, and as far as you know, you are the only one who does have a key unless there is a general key?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Well, I am sure there is.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Any other corrections to be made on that exhibit?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I don’t believe so. I could add, to what Ruby said, or what——

Mr. Hubert. Well, yes; I should like you to say if there is anything in there that—or if you heard something that Ruby said which is not in your report denominated as Exhibit 5123, I wish you would add that.

Dr. Bieberdorf. Okay; well, as I stated earlier, I saw him on the two occasions. Once at approximately 2:05, and the second time at approximately 6 p.m., both on November 24.

At the 2:05 time that I saw him, he, as I stated in this document—Well, let me just go through what, as best I can recall, what was said. I identified myself to him. I don’t recall that he said who he was or that either the police officer with him or the FBI agent with him at the time identified him to me. I told him that I had been asked to see if he had any complaints or injuries as a result of the earlier scuffle he had in the city hall.

He assured me that he was not injured in any way. He took off his coat, which he had on at the time, and showed me a few bruises on the medial aspect of his right arm, and I also noted a few bruises on his right wrist which appeared to be fresh, but, he assured me these weren’t bothering him, and he had no other injuries. He, at that time—oh, I don’t recall the exact words he used, but he expressed an admiration for the police officers. And in saying that he had no injuries he stated that the police had just done what they had to do, that they hadn’t injured him any more than necessary, than he would expect in such a scuffle, and again spoke of how the police were doing their job and how they were doing their job well.

At 6 o’clock. Well, excuse me. Delete that 6 o’clock.

He, at that time, did not seem to act—I did not make any observation of his behavior at that time.

Just saw him for a matter of 2 or 3 minutes during that time. I did not attempt to do any mental status observation or examination on him, and really couldn’t say anything, hadn’t formed any opinion as to the state of mind that he was in at that time.

Mr. Hubert. Is that last statement of yours true as to both interviews, or only the 6 o’clock one?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Both interviews. I saw him 2 or 3 minutes at 2 o’clock, or 2:05, and another 2 or 3 minutes at 6 o’clock. Now, the conversation that I mentioned occurred at 2:05.

Mr. Hubert. No conversation in the evening, in the later call, later visit?

Dr. Bieberdorf. At that time—6 o’clock when I saw him, I had stated that I had been asked to do additional and rectal examination to make sure he had not smuggled anything into the jail. By this time he had on a pair of white pants and white shirt that apparently, looked like a uniform that cooks in the89 city jail wear. He had on different clothes than he had on at 2:05, and I explained to him what I had been asked to do and we found a little room just off the main lobby there, and went in there, and he bent over and I performed a rectal examination on him, and he made the comment that this was the worst massage that he had ever had, and that is all the conversation that I recall. The only comment that I recall that he made. That was at the 6 o’clock visit.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Any other corrections you have to make?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I believe that is all.

Mr. Hubert. As to Exhibit 5123?

Dr. Bieberdorf. That’s all.

Mr. Hubert. Did Ruby, at any time, make any comments as to his motive, or his intent?

Dr. Bieberdorf. At neither time that I saw him was the shooting brought up. I did not mention it and he did not mention it, and it was all the talk we had.

Mr. Hubert. Let me put it to you this way; do you consider that taking the FBI report which has been identified as Exhibit 5123, and taking also your deposition today, including your identification on the chart, which is 5124, that there has now been recorded all you know about this matter, completely?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission’s staff prior to the time——

Dr. Bieberdorf. Not by the Commission.

Mr. Hubert. None of the Commission’s staff?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I mean by the Commission’s staff.

Mr. Hubert. Other than myself?

Dr. Bieberdorf. Well, not that I know of. I was interviewed, of course, by the FBI man.

Mr. Hubert. Insofar as our interview is concerned, today, prior to the commencement of this deposition, was there anything in that interview which is inconsistent with your deposition taken after the interview ended?

Dr. Bieberdorf. I believe not.

Mr. Hubert. Anything of material nature which was discussed in the interview which has not been brought out in this deposition?

Dr. Bieberdorf. No.

Mr. Hubert. All right; I think that is it, sir.

Thank you.

The testimony of Mrs. Frances Cason was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Mrs. Frances Cason [spelling] F-r-a-n-c-e-s?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Mrs. Cason, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules and procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. Mrs. Cason, I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mrs. Cason, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

90 In particular, with reference to your duties as a dispatcher of the Dallas Police Department.

Now, Mrs. Cason, you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request made by the General Counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, and under the rules adopted by the Commission you would normally be entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but those rules also provide that that 3-day written notice may be waived, and I ask you if you are willing to waive that notice at this time?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, I will.

Mr. Hubert. All right, stand and raise your right hand, please, Ma’am, so as to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Cason. I do.

Mr. Hubert. State your name, please.

Mrs. Cason. Frances Cason.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mrs. Cason. Age 26.

Mr. Hubert. Are you married, Mrs. Cason?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, I am.

Mr. Hubert. Then I suppose we should have your husband’s name?

Mrs. Cason. Jimmy D. Cason.

Mr. Hubert. What was your name prior to the marriage?

Mrs. Cason. Shanz [spelling] S-h-a-n-z.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you reside?

Mrs. Cason. 2822 Greene [spelling] G-r-e-e-n-e, in Irving, Tex.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation?

Mrs. Cason. Telephone clerk in the telephone dispatcher’s office at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so employed?

Mrs. Cason. Since September 6, 1963. Before that I had a 6 months’ leave of absence and was employed for the police department for 2½ years.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty between the hours of 7 a.m. and 3 p.m., on November 24, 1963?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, I was; actually, it is 6:30 to 3:30.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mrs. Cason, I have marked for the purposes of identification a document which is to be found in Commission’s report 81-A, which is entitled “Investigation of the Operational Security Involving the Transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald on November 24th, 1963.” On page 14, thereof, I have also marked Exhibit EE in that document, the following for the purposes of identification, “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5135, Deposition of Frances Cason and C. E. Hulse.” I have signed my name below that and ask you if you have not signed your name, for the purposes of identification, also on this same document?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state in your own words just exactly what part you had to do with this Exhibit 5135, which you now have before you?

Mrs. Cason. You want me to just go ahead?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mrs. Cason. At approximately 11:20, or 11:21, I received a call from the basement of city hall there from Officer Slack, who works in the jail office.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know Officer Slack prior to this time?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Had you spoken to him on the telephone before?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I have.

Mr. Hubert. Can you state that you are able to recognize his voice?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize the voice then speaking to you as being the voice of Officer Slack?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. All right; now, go ahead.

Mrs. Cason. In addition, he told me it was Officer Slack when he called. It is not unusual for them to say, “This is Slack in the jail office.” So he would91 identify himself and ask to speak to Officer Farr, that is J. G. Farr, who is our corporal.

Mr. Hubert. How do you spell his last name?

Mrs. Cason. [spelling] F-a-r-r. And he was in charge on that Sunday because we did not have a sergeant there, and he had asked to speak to Farr, and I told him Officer Farr was working channel 2, which is a separate channel that we have, and so he told me, he said, “They just shot Oswald,” or “Somebody just shot Oswald,” and I told him, “Okay.” And placed him on hold and told Farr that he had a red light on 531, and I proceeded to call the ambulance service on the hot line.

Mr. Hubert. Please describe the hot line?

Mrs. Cason. The hot line is a straight line from our dispatcher office to the ambulance company which requires no dialing. You just lift it up and it rings from our office to theirs.

Mr. Hubert. So, then, immediately upon getting this information from Slack you passed it on to Farr by word of mouth?

Mrs. Cason. I did not tell Officer Farr that Oswald had just been shot. I felt it was more important to get the ambulance and in time they would know soon enough. I told them he had a red light, and I knew Slack would tell him what happened in the basement.

Mr. Hubert. So then you flipped the button for the hot line at O’Neal Funeral Home?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; I did.

Mr. Hubert. Did you get it immediately?

Mrs. Cason. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What happened then?

Mrs. Cason. It is just a matter of seconds until they answered, and I told them that someone just shot Oswald in the basement, and we needed a white ambulance, code 3, to the basement.

Mr. Hubert. What does code 3 mean?

Mrs. Cason. Code 3, red lights and sirens, as fast as possible.

Mr. Hubert. What did the man on the other end say to you?

Mrs. Cason. He told me he would send ambulance 607, from his office, and I told him, “Okay,” and hung up the phone.

Mr. Hubert. Now, who were you speaking to, do you know?

Mrs. Cason. I do not know. Sometimes they will give their names when they answer, and sometimes they do not, and I do not remember if he did or not.

Mr. Hubert. He told you that 607, ambulance 607, would answer this call?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; he did.

Mr. Hubert. And answer it under conditions of code 3, that is to say, as fast as possible, red lights and sirens.

Mrs. Cason. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What happened next?

Mrs. Cason. Apparently I must have told Officer C. E. Hulse, who was on the radio, that Oswald had just been shot, and I had ordered an ambulance, and by then I proceeded to make up the call sheet, which is just routine work that we do in the office on every call that we take.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, you have before you Exhibit 5135, which is the call sheet we are talking about, and I notice written in hand, “605 on air,” and it seems to be next to the initials, “F.C.” Is that language, to wit, “Ambulance 605 on air,” in your handwriting?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; it is.

Mr. Hubert. Are the initials “F.C.” your initials?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; they are.

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you tell us about when you made up that card?

Mrs. Cason. Immediately after ordering the ambulance I made up the call sheet. I did not have to look up the district or any of the information because I knew it all by memory, and we have a lot of calls to city hall, and normally use 2000 and Main, and I knew, of course, it was district 102, and——

Mr. Hubert. And the top of the card shows it is district 102?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, sir.

92 Mr. Hubert. Now, there is also on that Exhibit 5135, and it appears in blue ink printed by someone in the column entitled, “Ambulance ordered,” the following: “C—11:12 a.m., November 24th——”

Mrs. Cason. 11:21, it said——

Mr. Hubert. “11:21,” I beg your pardon. Then the column immediately below that, “Time received,” “C—11:21 a.m., November 24th.”

Can you explain that to us, please?

Mrs. Cason. Well, the writing was not on the original call sheet. The original call sheet was stamped in the timeclock. The only reason I can see for it is that in the copying of the call sheet, the printed matter did not show up, and it was necessary to write this in in ink.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, it is your thought that the original of which 5135 is a photostatic copy, has got the time printed, and that someone just simply wrote it in?

Mrs. Cason. I feel like it was stamped; yes, sir. I am almost positive it was.

Mr. Hubert. This writing in blue ink that I referred to is not in your handwriting?

Mrs. Cason. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. Hubert. What would have been the normal procedure for stamping the time in those two columns?

Mrs. Cason. Well, ordinarily, we make up the call sheet before we stamp it in complete form. In other words, we don’t do part of it and stamp that and then do part of it again and stamp that time. I, myself, always stamp the time that the ambulance is ordered regardless of whether it is on the air or whether it is sent from the office itself. Whereas, some other telephone clerks may have left the “Ambulance ordered” place blank for the dispatcher to stamp.

That is, if it was an ambulance on the air call.

Mr. Hubert. You feel certain, therefore, that you, having prepared the card, did put it into the time clock?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, sir. I feel sure I stamped the card twice as to the time. Once for the ambulance and——

Mr. Hubert. How long would it take you to prepare the card?

Mrs. Cason. Just a few seconds. It is very routine, and it just takes a matter of a few seconds if you are familiar with it.

Mr. Hubert. What kind of time clocks are these? I don’t mean the make of them, but how do they work? Are they automatic?

Mrs. Cason. Yes; they are. They are all electric clocks, and I believe the name of them is Synchron. They show the time on the face of the clock, and you insert the call sheet on the place marked by a red arrow, and when you place the call sheet in, the weight of it causes the clock to stamp the time.

Mr. Hubert. You do not have to punch anything down?

Mrs. Cason. The weight of the card causes the clock to stamp the time.

Mr. Hubert. Now, is that clock checked at any time as to accuracy?

Mrs. Cason. I don’t know how often they are checked. I do know that sometimes we find a discrepancy as to the time on the clock insofar as sometimes when we dispatch—when we sent a call sheet through and the time received may be—it says, this could have been 11:23 on the time I received the call, and when we dispatched it it would have shown 11:22, then we would know that the clocks were off, because we couldn’t—I couldn’t receive a call after we had dispatched it.

Mr. Hubert. But, the dispatcher would be using a different clock from you?

Mrs. Cason. And when we find these errors in these clocks this way, someone in the office usually adjusts them to where they all are stamping the same time. It doesn’t happen very often that they get out of time, but sometimes they do.

Mr. Hubert. They are not all tied into a master clock?

Mrs. Cason. No; not as far as I know. I don’t really know how the system works, but I don’t believe they are. I believe they are all on individual basis.

Mr. Hubert. I notice that Exhibit 5135 shows an “M.J.”; is that in your handwriting?

93 Mrs. Cason. Yes; it is.

Mr. Hubert. Well——

Mrs. Cason. These are the initials of Officer M. J. Jackson who was working on the radio with Officer C. E. Hulse at the time the calls were dispatched. The way our radio is set up part of the squads are handled by this officer on one side of the board and part of the squads and the ambulances and APB, which is traffic investigators are handled by the officer on the other side of the radio board, and Mr. Jackson was sitting on the side of the board that would handle a call in the downtown area. That is why I placed his initial on the call sheet, but when it got in there Officer Hulse had already been talking to the ambulance and was dispatching the call rather than Mr. Jackson.

Mr. Hubert. Have you stated yet whether you conveyed the information about Oswald being shot to Officer Hulse by word of mouth?

Mrs. Cason. No.

Mr. Hubert. Tell us what happened there?

Mrs. Cason. There is a discrepancy in the number of the ambulance that was on the call sheet and the number of the ambulance that was told to me that would be sent by the ambulance company. I feel that the reason for this is because I called Officer Hulse over the intercom that we have between the telephone clerk’s office and the radio dispatcher’s office and told him that Oswald had been shot, and I was sending an ambulance, and it is my understanding that ambulance 605 was cleared in the downtown area, and he gave it to ambulance 605, and told me to clear 607 through the office, so, rather than put 607 on the call sheet, I put ambulance 605 on the air, because he was giving the call on the air.

Mr. Hubert. Well, Officer Hulse got the information that Oswald was shot and that an ambulance was needed from you?

Mrs. Cason. I do not have total recall about the matter, but I feel like Officer Hulse knew Oswald had been shot. This is my only explanation for it. It was busy that day and things were confusing, and I just feel like this is what must have happened. It’s not unusual for us to tell them about things like this on the intercom that is placed there for that reason, like if we have an armed robbery they can tell them the location and they can have a squad practically there before we can make up the call sheet, because it takes longer to make up a call sheet if you have to look up the district, and we do not know all of the districts. I happened to know what district this call was in.

Mr. Hubert. That is why it was easy and quick for you to make up your call sheet, identified as Exhibit 5135?

Mrs. Cason. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, is there anything that we have not covered, to your recollection?

Mrs. Cason. I can’t think of anything other than that we did not know the exact time that Oswald was to be transferred and I might clarify the matter as to why Officer Farr was on channel 2. Channel 2 was maintained throughout the whole time that President Kennedy was in town and was used for special services such as the—if we have a whole lot of extra traffic men and solo motorcycles and things of this sort to keep them off of channel 1, they set up channel 2, and put all of those people on that channel 2, and I feel sure that this must have been the case this day, because they must have had all sorts of extra people set up for the transfer from the city hall to the county jail and this is probably why Officer Farr was maintaining channel 2.

Mr. Hubert. But this call went out on channel 1?

Mrs. Cason. This call went out on channel 1, but other than that, I can’t think of anything else I know that might have any bearing on this whatsoever.

Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you this: We did have an interview, didn’t we, immediately before the beginning of this deposition?

Mrs. Cason. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Can you think of anything that we discussed in the course of that interview which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mrs. Cason. Only pertaining to the squad dispatched, and I believe Officer Hulse can cover that. Other than that, I can’t think of anything.

Mr. Hubert. All right, now, do you perceive any inconsistencies between the94 interview and the facts brought out in the interview and your deposition now being taken?

Mrs. Cason. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. I think that is all, then. Thank you very much.

Mrs. Cason. Thank you.

The testimony of Michael Hardin was taken at 4:30 p.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of—Michael?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. [Spelling] M-i-c-h-a-e-l? H-a-r-d-e-n?

Mr. Hardin. -i-n.

Mr. Hubert. [Spelling] H-a-r-d-i-n?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. My name is Leon D. Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, Joint Resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Hardin, identified in my authority as the proper representative of the O’Neal Funeral Home. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry, to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and subsequent violent death of Harvey Lee Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Hardin, the nature of our inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry including the ambulance call and the documents relative to that of the O’Neal Funeral Home.

Now, Mr. Hardin, I think you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the General Counsel of the Commission’s staff. And that general request—rather it was a particular request to the O’Neal Funeral Home to have its representatives come and have their depositions taken and to produce certain documents relative to the matter under inquiry.

Have you received a copy of that letter?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; I haven’t.

Mr. Hubert. Well, under the rules adopted by the Commission you would be entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that you can waive that 3-day written notice if you so wish. Do you desire to waive it?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Then, will you raise your right hand so that I may administer the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?

Mr. Hardin. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. Hardin. Michael Norfleet Hardin.

Mr. Hubert. And your age?

Mr. Hardin. Twenty-three.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Mr. Hardin. 1311 Exeter.

Mr. Hubert. Dallas?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it is in Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. And your occupation?

Mr. Hardin. I drive one of the city contract emergency ambulances.

95 Mr. Hubert. Now, on November 24, what was your occupation?

Mr. Hardin. City ambulance, or contract emergency ambulance driver.

Mr. Hubert. What connection have you with O’Neal?

Mr. Hardin. I drive the ambulance for the funeral home. We are under contract to the city for emergency ambulance service.

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have produced written records which you have in your hand now. Do you, from your own knowledge, know those records to be the official records of the O’Neal Funeral Home?

Mr. Hardin. Yes; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Are those records relied upon by the O’Neal Funeral Home in the course of their ordinary normal business transactions?

Mr. Hardin. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Is it a normal administrative matter to make such records as you now hold in your hand, which you are producing?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, we’ll mark these various documents for identification, as follows, to wit: And I might add that although you have the originals we have compared the originals, have we not, with these photostatic copies, and, of course, they are identical. Therefore, I am not going to take the original from you, or even mark them for identification, but use, for all purposes the photostatic copies that you have supplied and you may keep the originals, or return them where you got them from. But for the purposes of identification, now, let us mark the documents as follows: There is an ambulance call record which I am identifying as follows:

“Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit No. 5125, deposition of Michael Hardin,” and signing my name on it.

Mr. Hardin. Okay, sir.

Mr. Hubert. There is another ambulance call record which I am marking as follows: “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5126. Deposition of Michael Hardin,” and signing my name on it. Finally there is a call ticket bearing number 35127, which I am marking, “Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. Exhibit 5127, Deposition of Michael Hardin,” and signing my name on the bottom of it, and for the purposes of identification and so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same documents I will ask you to sign your name near mine, or below on each one of the three.

Mr. Hardin. All right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Hardin, I hand you the document which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5125, and ask you to identify that document for the record.

Mr. Hardin. That is the ambulance call sheet—we—that was the original call sheet from the—made from the call itself, or at the time of the call itself.

Mr. Hubert. Now, whose handwriting appears on that?

Mr. Hardin. That is our dispatcher, or Hal Priddy, this is his handwriting.

Mr. Hubert. That is Harold—Hal Priddy. [Spelling] P-r-i-d-d-y?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. He is outside in the hall right now?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; he is.

Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. Hardin. I am not too familiar with it, really.

Mr. Hubert. That is all right. He will identify it.

Mr. Hardin. Well——

Mr. Hubert. I show you a document marked previously for identification as 5126, and ask you to identify that document.

Mr. Hardin. This is a copy of the call sheet taken from the police dispatcher’s tape.

Mr. Hubert. Whose handwriting appears on that sheet?

Mr. Hardin. This is my handwriting on this one.

Mr. Hubert. As I see it, that is sort of a reconstruction, or amendment of the first document, 5125, is that correct?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Hubert. There is some data missing from 5125, which is supplied on 5126, is that right?

96 Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And you supplied that missing information by inserting the times, principally, in your own handwriting, which times you obtained from the police tape relevant to this transaction?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All of that is in your handwriting?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Hubert. Do you state now for the record that those times entered on Exhibit 5126, were accurate entries as you gathered them and found out about them from the police log?

Mr. Hardin. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you the document marked 5127, and ask you if you can identify that.

Mr. Hardin. That is the ambulance—the call ticket that was made on the call.

Mr. Hubert. Whose handwriting is that document written in?

Mr. Hardin. That is my handwriting.

Mr. Hubert. When was it written?

Mr. Hardin. Written at the time of the call, or right after the call was made.

Mr. Hubert. And before you answered the call?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; after we had already answered the call and cleared.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, after the person had been brought to the hospital?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. You then executed that form. All right. Now, tell us what you know about what happened on November 24, 1963.

Mr. Hardin. We were en route to the funeral home from veterans hospital, and we were on the Stemmons Freeway, about a quarter of a mile southwest of Industrial Boulevard, and we received a call that—at 11:21 over the police radio on signal 19, which is a shooting in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you have radio equipment in your car?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; we do. It is police radio equipment. Hooked up directly with the police dispatcher. Just regular police equipment.

Mr. Hubert. Is it 2-way?

Mr. Hardin. Yes; 3-way.

Mr. Hubert. Three-way?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What is the third way?

Mr. Hardin. We can talk to the squads and they can talk back to us and we can talk to the dispatcher and he can talk, and we can talk to the squad and the dispatcher.

Mr. Hubert. I see. It is customary for you to have that radio machine open and operating when you are traveling?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. Hubert. Well, tell us what you heard.

Mr. Hardin. Well, a call came out on signal 19, in the basement.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know what signal 19 meant?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; it means shooting.

Mr. Hubert. How is it identified as being a shooting in the basement?

Mr. Hardin. They gave us the call as signal 19, in the basement. Code 3, which means emergency, red lights and sirens, and at the time I heard them dispatch three squads, I believe it was, to the basement on this call, and at that time they dispatched us to the call and——

Mr. Hubert. Who dispatched you?

Mr. Hardin. This police dispatcher. They phoned—the dispatcher phoned our office, O’Neal’s Funeral Home and he gave our dispatcher the call, and our dispatcher in turn told the police dispatcher we were en route back to the office from the veterans hospital and should be close to that vicinity when the call came out, so, he, in turn gave it to us, used our call number, which is 605, and gave it to us.

Mr. Hubert. Called 605 and you knew that was you?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

97 Mr. Hubert. You also knew what the signal 19 was, and what the other signal you mentioned——

Mr. Hardin. Code 3.

Mr. Hubert. You knew what that was?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And I think you have explained all these meanings of signals in the record already?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What did you do then?

Mr. Hardin. We, as I say, we were on the Freeway about a quarter of a mile—I guess you would call it southwest—of Industrial and we went on the freeway, from there to Ervay Street, north on Ervay to Main, and then east on Main Street to city hall.

Mr. Hubert. And you came into the city hall, in your ambulance?

Mr. Hardin. Came off the Main Street entrance to the city hall.

Mr. Hubert. Describe for the record what you saw and what you did?

Mr. Hardin. Now remembering coming into the basement, there were police officers standing there guarding the basement to see nobody got out, and let us go into the basement, and when—and boy, the basement was pretty crowded, a bunch of photographers and newsmen down there, and they were moving this van up the Commerce Street side so we could get in—I mean going up the ramp toward Commerce Street side, best I remember, now, and pulled the ambulance up just south of the—well, I don’t—jail office I guess it would be in there, and stopped the ambulance, and when we got out I started around the back of the ambulance to take the stretcher out, and there was a police officer, I don’t remember who he was or anything, but he must have not recognized me, kind of pushed me back into the crowd. I guess he thought I was someone just coming through, so, just a few seconds until he did recognize me and let me on through——

Mr. Hubert. By the way, was there anyone with you then?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; my rider attendant, was with me.

Mr. Hubert. Who was that?

Mr. Hardin. Harold Wayne Wolfe.

Mr. Hubert. Go ahead.

Mr. Hardin. And I went around to the back of the ambulance, and my rider opened the back door and took the stretcher out, and went into the police or jail office, and we saw Oswald lying on the floor there, and several men around him, and we picked him up and put him on the stretcher and put him in the ambulance, and then there were two or three men, I don’t remember now, got into the back of the ambulance, I believe.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know who they were?

Mr. Hardin. I believe they were police officers and I believe one of them was Leavelle.

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Hardin. I am not sure. And then there was a doctor riding in the seat in the back, there, and then my assistant was in the front seat.

Mr. Hubert. How did you know the man was a doctor?

Mr. Hardin. I have seen him at Parkland Hospital several times and city hall, too, and recognized him as being a doctor.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know his name?

Mr. Hardin. Sir?

Mr. Hubert. Do you know his name?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; I don’t know his name. He was in here just before us.

Mr. Hubert. Let the record show that Dr. Fred Bieberdorf was in the hall with the witness, Mr. Hardin, and appeared in this room where this deposition is being taken just before Mr. Hardin came in. All right.

Mr. Hardin. And we got him in the car, or ambulance, they drove the armored truck on out of the basement on the Commerce Street side, and we went out behind the truck. Of course, the truck was there when we left, and then went east on Commerce to the expressway, and north on the expressway to Elm and then west on Elm to Harwood and north on Harwood to Harry Hines, and north on Hines to Parkland.

98 Mr. Hubert. And what happened when you got to Parkland?

Mr. Hardin. When we got to Parkland we went in the emergency entrance, pulled around there, backed up to the dock. Of course, it was pretty crowded there, too. People had, I guess, saw the thing on television and came out there to see us when we came in with him, and as soon as we got—took him out of the car, took him into the emergency room—we got to the hall of the emergency room itself, and they put him on one of their tables from our carriage, and we cleared from the call, but there was a few minutes before we cleared.

We were waiting in the hall because it was so crowded that we couldn’t get through, so we waited in the hall and I imagine it was about an hour, from the time we got the call before the time we cleared. I believe it was an hour and 9 minutes, if I am not mistaken.

Mr. Hubert. Would it help you if you looked at Exhibit No. 5127, to determine the time of the call?

Mr. Hardin. Well——

Mr. Hubert. As far as the time of the clearance of the call?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; the call was at 11:21, and cleared at 12:30, and I believe it took 9 minutes from the time we got the call on the air until we were at Parkland with him.

Mr. Hubert. How did you determine that the call came in at 11:21?

Mr. Hardin. That is the time that I believe the call came into our office.

Mr. Hubert. That is what you have on Exhibit 5127?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What I mean by that is that Exhibit 5127 was prepared in your handwriting, but insofar as that time is concerned it was taken off Exhibit 5125, was it not?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; that’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. There is no mechanism there in the ambulance itself which fixes the time of a call?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. No timeclock or anything?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, during all the time you were with Oswald, from the moment you saw him until the moment he was taken over by the hospital, did he say anything at all?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; not that I could hear.

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the name of the patient that you all had delivered to Veterans Hospital?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Where had you taken him from?

Mr. Hardin. Let’s see, I’m trying to think. I don’t—we make so many calls that I—just hard to remember exactly where I had picked him up.

Mr. Hubert. Man or woman?

Mr. Hardin. It was a man. He was——

Mr. Hubert. Do you remember where you picked him up from?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; that is what I was trying to think.

Mr. Hubert. Nor do you remember his name?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What was the number of the car you were driving?

Mr. Hardin. 605.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t normally cruise around, do you?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; we don’t. As soon as we clear from a call we go right back to our station. From the time we received the call until the time we checked out at the city hall, it was just 2 minutes, according to their tape.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the significance of the code 5, code 6 and so forth is on Exhibit 5126?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir. Code 5 means en route to the scene; code 6 means at the location.

Mr. Hubert. And there is another code on Exhibit 5126, that means time of departure from the jail?

Mr. Hardin. En route to the hospital.

Mr. Hubert. And code 6 on to that would be arrival at the hospital?

99 Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. And 13 means is cleared, in the sense is that you were dismissed about an hour later?

Mr. Hardin. It all was a little while before that. I don’t believe we cleared at the hospital. I think I came on back to the funeral home from the hospital without clearing, because if I am not mistaken, I believe those phones were all tied up at the hospital and I couldn’t get to one of them.

Mr. Hubert. Anyhow, from the time you got the call over the radio until the time you got to the hospital, was exactly 10 minutes?

Mr. Hardin. Let’s see. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And you got to the jail 3 minutes after you got the call, approximately, right?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir. Well, from the time we got the call until we got to the jail, and—let’s see, in 2 minutes, because we actually received the call at 11:21 and the call from the dispatcher to us at 11:22.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, code 5, on Exhibit 5126, code 5 indicating that 11:22 is the time they put it on the air to you?

Mr. Hardin. Is the time it was given to us.

Mr. Hubert. Well, I’ll ask you to look at Exhibit 5125, and tell me if you recognize the handwriting on the bottom part of that exhibit by the printed word “oxygen and remarks.”

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; that handwriting, I don’t recognize.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Now, is there anything further you want to add to this?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. About all you know about it?

Mr. Hardin. Yes, sir; that’s it.

Mr. Hubert. Have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission other than myself prior to the taking of this deposition?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; I haven’t.

Mr. Hubert. Now, during the interview that you had with me immediately prior to the taking of this deposition, was anything brought out material nature which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir; not that I know of, not that I can remember.

Mr. Hubert. All right. Do you know of any inconsistencies between what you testified here in this deposition and the matter as to which we look about during the interview which proceeded the deposition?

Mr. Hardin. No, sir.

Mr. Hubert. All right, thank you very much.

The testimony of C. E. Hulse was taken at 4:30 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Officer C. E. Hulse. Mr. Hulse, my name is Leon Hubert, and I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with this joint resolution and the Executive order, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of you. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular to you, Mr. Hulse, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent100 facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly, about your actions with respect to putting the radio call on the air and so forth.

Now, you have appeared here by virtue of a general request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are normally entitled to a 3-day written notice before you are required to testify, but the rules also provide you can waive that notice if you wish to do so. So, I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice that you would normally be entitled to?

Mr. Hulse. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you rise, and raise your right hand so as to be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that will be given in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hulse. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. Hulse. C. E. Hulse.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mr. Hulse. Thirty-one.

Mr. Hubert. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. Hulse. 7825 Gayglen.

Mr. Hubert. Dallas?

Mr. Hulse. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. Hulse. Policeman, city of Dallas.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. Hulse. Six years.

Mr. Hubert. On November 24, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Hubert. What were your specific duties on that day?

Mr. Hulse. Radio dispatcher.

Mr. Hubert. What does that mean that you do?

Mr. Hulse. Dispatch all calls in the city of Dallas which come through on the telephone lines.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you mean that you can get into radio communication with moving vehicles and other places through special channels?

Mr. Hulse. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. What channel were you using, do you remember?

Mr. Hulse. Using channel 1.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Mrs. Frances Cason?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, I do.

Mr. Hubert. Who is she?

Mr. Hulse. She is a telephone operator for the city of Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I invite you to look at the document before you which has been marked for identification as: “Dallas, Texas, April 1, 1964. Exhibit 5135, deposition of Frances Cason and C. E. Hulse,” and ask you whether or not you have signed it?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, I have.

Mr. Hubert. Now, would you tell us what part you played with reference to the activities reflected by Exhibit 5135?

Mr. Hulse. I dispatched this shooting call to 118, and also dispatched the same call to ambulance 605, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, can you recall how you got the information, or where you got the information as to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. Hulse. To the best of my knowledge, I don’t remember who told me that that he had been shot. Some other officer, or some other telephone clerk in the dispatcher’s office told me that he had been shot.

Mr. Hubert. Is it possible that Mrs. Cason——

Mr. Hulse. It is quite possible that she did.

Mr. Hubert. How would she do it? Were you in the same office with her?

Mr. Hulse. No, now, I was in another office which is divided by a plate glass, but we also have an intercom system and it is quite possible she told me through the intercom system that Oswald had been shot.

101 Mr. Hubert. When you heard that, what did you do?

Mr. Hulse. I knew that she had already ordered an ambulance. I knew 605 had just cleared from a previous call. Best I can remember I asked her what ambulance was going, what ambulance had been ordered and she told me 607.

Mr. Hubert. All right.

Mr. Hulse. I knew that 605 would probably be closer to the basement, and I disregarded 607, and ordered 605 on the air.

Mr. Hubert. All right, now, how did you know that 605 was nearby?

Mr. Hulse. When he heard the call come out on the shooting in the basement, the best I can remember, he told me he was probably closer to the basement than 607.

Mr. Hubert. That is to say that you were in radio communication with 605?

Mr. Hulse. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Ambulance 605?

Mr. Hulse. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. And he heard the call for ambulance 607?

Mr. Hulse. I am not positive whether he heard—no, he never did dispatch 607 at all. It was handled through the telephone by Mrs. Cason, but he knew that there was an ambulance needed for this shooting victim, and he told me he would probably be closer.

Mr. Hubert. Than the other?

Mr. Hulse. Than any ambulance. I’m not sure whether he said that he would be closer than 607, but he said closer to the basement than any other ambulance.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that you had heard ambulance 605, on channel 1, announcing to his own company just shortly before this all happened that he was clear and that you remembered that he was clear and was going back towards his company?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; that is correct. He had just cleared from a previous call, and was en route back to the company, which I presume he would be in the immediate downtown vicinity.

Mr. Hubert. And isn’t that the reason why you then, realized that 605 had just cleared, as you had heard him clear over your radio, and you realized that he was closer, and that is why you called 605?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; plus that he told me that he would probably be closer himself, on the radio.

Mr. Hubert. I would like you to look at Exhibit 5135 and tell us what portion of that card is written in your hand?

Mr. Hulse. Just the squad number, which I first dispatched to squad 108. He was on another assignment, so I dispatched it then to 118.

Mr. Hubert. So, that the column, or block which there is printed the word, “Squad assigned is 108,” and it appears to be scratched out and immediately above it is “118,” is that right?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. All in your handwriting?

Mr. Hulse. All that.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I notice that there is printed on that card by what apparently is a timeclock two figures, “time dispatched C-11:22, November 24,” would you explain what you had to do with that, if anything?

Mr. Hulse. The time dispatched, the time that it is explained here, 11:22, November 24, is the time that I actually dispatched the call to 108, and then finding out he was on another assignment, I dispatched it also to 118.

Mr. Hubert. Below there there is a block called, “time clear, 1:49 p.m., November 24,” would you explain that, please?

Mr. Hulse. That is the time that squad 118 cleared from the assignment.

Mr. Hubert. And they advised you of that and you put the card in the timeclock, is that right?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Now, this Exhibit 5135, was actually prepared by Mrs. Cason, was it not?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; it was.

102 Mr. Hubert. And she would have had it stamped in this box called “Ambulance ordered,” and “time received,” isn’t that right?

Mr. Hulse. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Then after she made up the card and had it stamped, how did it get to you?

Mr. Hulse. It is put on a conveyer belt that runs from one room to the radio room, this conveyor belt, and falls into a box, and I pick it up.

Mr. Hubert. And your—you have your own timeclock there?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. So, as soon as you have done what you said you did, you slip it into a stamp machine and it automatically stamps the time?

Mr. Hulse. That’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I notice that there is an initial in the column right next to the figure “118,” “MJ,” which Mrs. Cason advises was put there by her. Do you know who that refers to?

Mr. Hulse. Yes, sir; the other officer that was working on the radio with me. In this—“MJ” M. J. Jackson, his initials, M. J.

Mr. Hubert. But, as a matter of fact you handled it?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; I actually handled the dispatching of the call and the ambulance.

Mr. Hubert. Why didn’t he do it?

Mr. Hulse. Well, at that time Mr. Jackson was fairly new to the radio dispatcher’s office and everything was in such a turmoil there I decided that I would handle all transmissions made on the radio, seeing that he was new to the office and didn’t know quite how to handle the calls under the conditions.

Mr. Hubert. And in any case, you distinctly remember handling the call which is reflected by this Exhibit 5135?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; I do.

Mr. Hubert. Now, Officer Hulse, we had an interview now, you and I, did we not, immediately before the beginning of this deposition?

Mr. Hulse. Yes; we did.

Mr. Hubert. Can you recall anything that was covered in that interview which has not been covered in this deposition?

Mr. Hulse. No; I couldn’t. I believe all has been covered.

Mr. Hubert. Can you think of any inconsistencies between what was developed in the course of the interview and what was developed in the course of the deposition?

Mr. Hulse. No.

Mr. Hubert. Have you any other comments that you would like to make concerning this matter of any nature whatsoever?

Mr. Hulse. No, sir; I have told everything I know about it.

Mr. Hubert. Thank you, sir.

The testimony of Ira Jefferson “Jack” Beers, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Griffin. First of all, let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am with the advisory staff of the General Counsel staff of the President’s Commission investigating the Assassination of President Kennedy. I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission, what we are authorized to do and so forth before we actually get into the deposition. The Commission was set up pursuant to Executive order of President Johnson on November 30, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress which was enacted about the same time. Under these two documents, the Executive order and the joint resolution, the Commission has been authorized to promulgate certain rules103 and regulations, and under those rules and regulations I have been specifically designated to take your sworn deposition.

I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of our inquiry. The Commission has been set up to inquire into and evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, and particularly as to you, Mr. Beers, we are interested in what you know about Jack Ruby and about the events of November 24.

You have been interviewed by the FBI, and we have these interview reports before us, so we have a place to start anyhow in talking about this matter.

You have been asked to appear here by virtue of an oral request which was made by Special Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service. I don’t know whether he made it to you personally or to your employer or how it actually happened. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice before you are obligated to appear here.

Mr. Beers. I did.

Mr. Griffin. All right, you got it.

Mr. Beers. He changed the date and asked me to come this day.

Mr. Griffin. All right; fine. But I did want to make clear to you that if there have been any irregularities or anything that you prefer to have a different time, we could discuss that. But I presume that you are satisfied since you are here?

Mr. Beers. That is all right.

Mr. Griffin. Fine. Also under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to appear here with an attorney, and we actually encourage people to have attorneys, if they so desire, although many of the people, in fact most of them, don’t appear with an attorney. I see you are not here with an attorney, and I take it that is because you don’t desire one. But if you do for any reason feel you would like an attorney, please let us know and we can defer your deposition or interrupt it, whatever the case might be. I ask if you have any questions about what is involved here before I ask you to be sworn?

Mr. Beers. I have no questions whatsoever.

Mr. Griffin. Okay, would you raise your right hand, then.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Would you state for the record your full name.

Mr. Beers. Ira Jefferson Beers, known as Jack.

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us when you were born, Mr. Beers?

Mr. Beers. July 14, 1923.

Mr. Griffin. Where do you live presently?

Mr. Beers. I live at 10913 Joaquin Drive.

Mr. Griffin. Is that here in Dallas?

Mr. Beers. Dallas.

Mr. Griffin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Beers. Photographer with the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. Griffin. How long have you been employed with the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. Beers. A little over 14 years.

Mr. Griffin. I take it you have been a photographer?

Mr. Beers. Since 1942; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now I want to hand you a document which I have marked Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5350. This purports to be a copy of an FBI interview report. The interview took place, according to this report, on November 30, 1963, between you and two Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. Pinkston and W. Harlan Brown. I want to hand you this and ask you if you have had a chance to read it?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you have any additions or corrections that you would want to make in that. What I am referring to here right now in particular is whether you feel that that report accurately reflects everything that you told the bureau on the date of that interview?

104 Mr. Beers. With one minor exception. Shall I just read?

Mr. Griffin. Would you read the sentence that you feel is wrong?

Mr. Beers. “He is acquainted with Ruby both by name and by sight since about 18 months ago. He was assigned as a cameraman with Dale Bayse, a reporter for the Dallas News, on a story Bayse was doing on a stripper school being run by Jack Ruby.

“This story was for a magazine ...”—I would like to make clear this was not an assignment by the Dallas News.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Beers. That is the only thing I think of in this particular report.

Mr. Griffin. Fine. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1963, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5351. This is also an FBI interview report. This interview took place on December 3, 1963, here in Dallas, and purports to be a report of an interview between you and two other Special Agents of the FBI, Mr. James C. Kennedy and Will Hayden Griffin. I am going to hand you this Exhibit 5351, and ask you the same question as I asked with respect to 5350?

Mr. Beers. Yes; I have seen this report.

Mr. Griffin. Are there any additions?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir; there is a couple in here. Let me locate them. One, which is probably a minor one, speaking of myself: “He also stated that there were two armored vehicles, one in the basement and one near the driveway from the Commerce side.” I think possibly the agent misunderstood what I said there. There was only one armored vehicle. That was in the basement driveway near the Commerce Street side. There was another vehicle, police car, parked in the basement right near the entrance.

Mr. Griffin. Now that is a runover sentence from the first page of the report to the second page of the report, is that right?

Mr. Beers. Yes; that’s correct.

Mr. Griffin. Did you want to correct the sentence?

Mr. Beers. “Beers did not know Ruby prior to the shooting, nor did he know Oswald ...” et cetera. This is contradictory to the first report that you just handed me a moment ago. Apparently the agent must have misunderstood me or misread his notes or something. I did know who Ruby was prior to this shooting.

Mr. Griffin. I wonder if you would want to make a change in ink in that sentence which would reflect accurately what you said, then initial the change that you make and date it?

Mr. Beers. Let me ask you a question here. Shall I say this sentence is contradictory to that report, or just change it to that I did know Ruby prior?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Beers. [Making change.] I have written here “I did know Ruby prior to the shooting, as stated to the FBI in report dated November 30, 1963, Exhibit 5350.” Would you like me to initial this?

Mr. Griffin. If you would, please, and then date it?

Mr. Beers. [Initialing.] This is April 14?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; are there any other additions or corrections?

Mr. Beers. So far as I can see, there are no further corrections.

Mr. Griffin. Okay. Well if we go along and something occurs to you, we can change it even further. Let me ask you, Mr. Beers, where were you at the time President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. Beers. I was on Dallas News property between the parking lot probably and my photographic studio.

Mr. Griffin. When you heard that President Kennedy had been shot, what did you do?

Mr. Beers. I was in my photo lab in the process of finishing films of the arrival at Love Field, and a lab man who works with us told me that the President had been shot, and I immediately thought he was making some sort of joke and I continued to turn out my picture of his arrival at Love Field. And I told the fellow, “Well, go ahead with your joke.” And he said, “No; that is right, the President has been shot.” And he just turned around and walked out. And I still didn’t believe him. In a few minutes our intercom between the city105 desk came on, and I was told to report to the Texas School Book Depository Building, that they thought they had the man that shot the President in the corner there.

Mr. Griffin. Did you go to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. Beers. A few minutes later, I did. It sort of stunned me. I guess I didn’t quite realize. I said, “Okay,” and I kept standing there working on my prints. And just a couple or 3 minutes, our city editor came back and he said, “Get the hell out and go over to the Depository.” And I arrived at the School Book Depository about 5 minutes later.

Mr. Griffin. What time would you say it was when you got there?

Mr. Beers. I don’t know. It would be shortly after noon sometime. I have lost complete track of time for a good length of time.

Mr. Griffin. About how long would you say it was after you first heard the President had been shot?

Mr. Beers. Probably 20 minutes.

Mr. Griffin. Now, when you got there, did you go into the building?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; I did not. As I arrived, there was quite a crowd of people gathered around the building, and so some officers brought a disheveled looking man from the building, and I thought this probably was the person, so I ran over and made a picture, and then went over to the building. This time the building was sealed off and no one was allowed to enter.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there at the School Book Depository?

Mr. Beers. I remained at the School Book Depository for 2 or 3 minutes, and I heard the report that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff. I ran back to my car, which was parked on Main Street directly across the street from the county jail building, and notified our office by 2-way radio that there was a report of a shooting, that a police officer had been involved, and asked them if they had any information, or if this would probably be linked to the President’s assassination, and they had no information.

I checked the police dispatcher, and the dispatcher didn’t have enough information to tell us, so I was told to remain at the Texas School Book Depository, which I did until sometime quite late in the afternoon, at the time the police had finished their investigation there in the building, and then admitted the press to the building, and we were taken to the sixth floor and allowed to photograph the area where the rifle was found, and shown and allowed to photograph the area in and around the window and make pictures from the window where the assassination was supposedly—where the assassin was supposed to have fired shots from.

Mr. Griffin. Can you give us an estimate of what time that would have been when you were up there taking the pictures on the sixth floor?

Mr. Beers. This would be strictly a guess, an estimate. It would be sometime around the vicinity of 4 o’clock. It was quite late in the afternoon. Probably later.

Mr. Griffin. Now in your pictures that you took, were any of the objects that were allegedly found up there on the sixth floor photographed, such as the position of the rifle and the placement of the boxes and other materials in the window from which the assassin is believed to have shot?

Mr. Beers. Yes. Prior to admitting us to the building, I made pictures of a sack, very long narrow sack type of affair that was brought down from there, and a pop bottle and some pieces of chicken, and I also made a picture of the rifle which I believe it was Lieutenant Carl Day from the Dallas police crime lab brought that. And upon going in the building, I photographed the area where the rifle was found. I photographed the area around the window from which the assassin was supposedly seated, and I moved into that area and made a picture from the window, supposedly the window from which the bullets were fired, that showed a little corner of the boxes which possibly the rifle rested on. It shows the street down below where the automobile was traveling when the President was killed.

Mr. Griffin. The photographs that you took up there in the window and on the sixth floor would not at that time have shown the rifle on the sack or the pop bottle, or the chicken?

Mr. Beers. No, sir. That was shown outside the building.

106 Mr. Griffin. I see. Do you still have copies of the photographs?

Mr. Beers. I do not have copies of the photographs. The negatives are in custody of the managing editor, Mr. Jack Krueger, managing editor of the Dallas News.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know what the newspaper policy is going to be with respect to retention of those negatives?

Mr. Beers. We planned to keep them in our permanent file. Not with the ordinary run of the mill day-to-day negatives, but they are filed in and will be filed for how long, I do not know, in the managing editor’s office.

Mr. Griffin. I take it from what you have said then, there is perhaps a general file of negatives or photos that were taken on the day of this assassination and the 2 days thereafter, which are going to be kept in a separate spot in your building?

Mr. Beers. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know, for our information, and I don’t know whether we are interested in this or not, do you know if the newspaper has any policy with respect to making those available, if it should turn out the Commission would like to see them?

Mr. Beers. We have made available everything that we have been requested to so far; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Fine. Is my understanding correct, that what you have in that file is negatives and not developed photographs, or do you have both?

Mr. Beers. Primarily negatives. It is possible there are some photographs that are filed either in our biographical file in the managing editor’s department, which we consider to be second prints.

Mr. Griffin. Are these negatives such as they could be easily examined to determine whether they might be of use to us without having to develop them or print them?

Mr. Beers. That would depend upon whoever examined them; their ability to read negatives.

I am sure, I, or whoever made the pictures, would be glad to sit down and go over and explain to you what is in the negatives and what they show.

Mr. Griffin. After you left the School Book Depository on the 22d, where did you go next?

Mr. Beers. I returned to the office and turned out my afternoon work.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain there?

Mr. Beers. Until approximately 7. Maybe 8 o’clock that night.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have occasion to perform any more work for the newspaper that day?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; we had pretty well closed up for the day by then. I believe this was the day—I am not sure—that—no; I am sorry. This was November the 24th that I was thinking about—referring to.

Mr. Griffin. On the 22d, were there any photographers from your newspaper at the police department?

Mr. Beers. On November the 22d?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; the day that the President was shot?

Mr. Beers. I believe that night when Mr. Oswald was apprehended, we had a photographer dispatched to the police station to make photographs up there.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who?

Mr. Beers. Mr. Bill Wentfre.

Mr. Griffin. Are you and Mr. Wentfre the only news photographers?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; we have approximately 10 news photographers at the Dallas News.

Mr. Griffin. I take it that all of the photographs that were taken by all 10 of you photographers that day which had anything to with the assassination would either be in the file that is in your managing editor’s office, or else the negatives to the photographs would be there?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, we attempted to collect all of those negatives and control them.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have any photographer who was assigned to the Dallas Police Department on a regular basis during those 3 days, the 22d, 23d, and 24th of November?

107 Mr. Beers. No, sir; we have a photographer assigned there most of the time, but it was not any one single photographer.

Mr. Griffin. Did you work on Saturday?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. The 23d?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall where you were working that day?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir; I worked hours 10 to 7 on Saturday, and I received an assignment to go to the city hall, third floor of the city hall near Captain Fritz’ office, homicide bureau, and to stand by there to photograph whatever might take place or whoever might be brought in or maybe any pictures of Mr. Oswald as he was going up and down the hall.

I arrived there roughly at 10:30 and remained there until roughly 1 o’clock, 1 p.m.

Mr. Griffin. In the afternoon?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Now, during the period that you were there, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; I didn’t.

Mr. Griffin. Did you have occasion to return to the police station that day, Saturday?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you spend the remainder of Saturday?

Mr. Beers. I think, I can’t remember exactly where I spent the remainder of Saturday, but I think just on general assignments out of the paper there. On Saturday afternoon it is usually rather quiet, and I possibly, I may have had one or more assignments, but I don’t think so.

Mr. Griffin. Now, before you left work on Saturday, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do the next day, Sunday?

Mr. Beers. No; I did not. It was approximately midnight anyway when I left work Saturday night. I had no instructions. And at midnight, I was called to the telephone and told to report to the basement of the city hall Sunday morning at 10 a.m., to photograph the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald from the city jail to the Dallas County Jail.

Mr. Griffin. What time did you actually arrive there?

Mr. Beers. I arrived at the city hall just about 9 o’clock.

Mr. Griffin. Where did you go when you came in?

Mr. Beers. I went to the basement of the city hall, and then on through the basement out into the police parking area in the basement of the city hall.

Mr. Griffin. Did you station yourself some place in the parking area?

Mr. Beers. Yes; I did. I went into the parking area and was in general conversation with various and sundry members of the press who were there for a short while, and I discovered that there was an area along a railing which is on the east side of the driveway that goes through the basement of the city hall, next to some television cameras that would permit one cameraman to be in this area without obstructing the view of the television cameras, so I went to this railing and I stayed there, sitting on this railing until the transfer had started.

When I stood up on the railing and made photographs as Mr. Oswald was being transferred, which included the pictures of Mr. Ruby shooting Mr. Oswald.

Then I remained standing on the railing and shot three or four or so further negatives of the scuffle that was going on.

Mr. Griffin. I am going to hand you—I will turn this around—I am going to hand you what is a diagram of the basement area in the municipal building. I have marked this diagram “Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Ira J. Beers’ Exhibit 5352.”

Let me try to explain it a little bit to you. Here is Commerce Street along the right-hand side, and Main Street along the left-hand side, and near the bottom of the page, is a ramp which says, “down ramp leading from Main Street into the basement area,” and following on up towards Commerce Street you see something marked, “up ramp.”

108 In this area here is the parking area of the garage. Here is the Police Department Building. Here is the jail office. This is the hallway that comes out from the public elevators near Harwood Street so that if you enter from Harwood you come down to this area, and you go up in the elevators here and walk through this hallway through some double doors, and you would be in the ramp area at the bottom of the basement floor.

Now can you, taking your pen, at the time you took your position on the railing, would you show us where the TV cameras were placed? Can you mark that in rectangles of some sort?

Mr. Beers. [Marking on map.] These were live TV cameras that I have marked on the east side of the railing, and there was a sound on-film cameraman leaning against the railing right there [pointing].

Mr. Griffin. Now this sound on-film camera, is this something that requires a tripod of some sort?

Mr. Beers. It may or may not.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall if that one did?

Mr. Beers. He had a monopod or a unapod, which is a single leg support for the camera.

Mr. Griffin. Do you know who that man was?

Mr. Beers. Mr. George Phenix with KRLD-TV.

Mr. Griffin. Can you put a figure 1, at the spot on the railing where you stationed yourself first?

Mr. Beers. Right here. Actually on the railing [marking.]

Mr. Griffin. You have crossed out one mark and you made a big circle which you blacked in, on the railing.

Mr. Beers. May I draw an arrow to point where I was standing?

Mr. Griffin. Okay.

Mr. Beers. So it will be much clearer.

Mr. Griffin. What time would you estimate it was when you stationed yourself at point 1?

Mr. Beers. Probably 9:15 or 9:20.

Mr. Griffin. How long did you remain at that position?

Mr. Beers. According to the time which we received, and which Mr. Ruby shot Mr. Oswald, which would be somewhere around 11:21, or thereabouts, I probably remained there until about 11:25.

Mr. Griffin. So you remained there right at that spot right up until the shooting?

Mr. Beers. And through the shooting and for a few moments thereafter.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Beers. A few minutes thereafter.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall an automobile moving out of the ramp? I mean out of the garage area and going up the Main Street ramp shortly before Mr. Oswald was shot?

Mr. Beers. Yes; there was an armored car parked in the driveway near the top of the Commerce Street entrance, and there was a black squad car, I believe I am correct, that backed up the ramp to Main Street in the direction of Main Street. I didn’t look right up there and see what he did. He never came back down the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. This is a car that you recall driving onto Main Street?

Mr. Beers. It backed up onto Main Street, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Mr. Beers. It backed from the basement and backed up Main Street toward what would be the entrance way to the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. Before that car was moved, was backed up onto the Main Street ramp, do you recall any car driving in a forward direction up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. No; I don’t.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how much traffic there was in and out of the basement while you were stationed there?

Mr. Beers. There was several police cars that came into the basement and out, and if I remember correctly, after this armored car was stationed there. I don’t recall that there were any other squad cars that came into the basement.

109 The reason I recall them was because they were stopping there just about right where I was standing and looking into the back seats and so forth.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall a TV camera being wheeled into the basement shortly before Jack Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. Beers. No, sir; I don’t. A big live camera?

Mr. Griffin. Yes.

Mr. Beers. I don’t recall seeing that. I may have, but I don’t recall seeing it.

Mr. Griffin. Now at the time that Oswald was brought out, do you recall how people were, newspeople and policemen, were stationed in the basement? Do you recall roughly how they were spread out?

Mr. Beers. Roughly, they were asked to get into somewhat of an L-shaped position here, which would be that the news people would be across the driveway like so, and this area here in front of the cameras was more or less open.

There was some people moving back over here in this area just a little bit, and then from approximately right in front of myself to up this ramp, towards the Commerce Street exit was roughly the position that the, this was the position people were asked to get into, that they assumed that, roughly.

Mr. Griffin. Now, do you have any recollection if the people were more densely stationed along the Main Street ramp than along the area in front of the entrance to the garage, or vice versa, or were they more densely stationed in front of the garage than elsewhere?

Mr. Beers. They were probably a little more concentrated right across the ramp.

Mr. Griffin. Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. Not here. They were fairly well strung out this way [pointing]. I couldn’t see too far up this ramp here without leaning out and around and looking up this post, but from my observation, they were fairly well strung out up toward the Commerce Street exit there for a number of feet or yards.

Mr. Griffin. Do you recall how many persons deep the people were that were strung across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. I am sure that would vary from two to maybe five.

Mr. Griffin. Well, could there have been as few as 15 people strung across the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. There was probably more—actually, they came around this corner just a little bit and almost up to this door.

Mr. Griffin. You are pointing towards the entrance of the jail office?

Mr. Beers. The entrance to the jail office; yes. There were actually a few at the corner there, and strung out across there, and I didn’t particularly look over in that area because I was concentrating most of my attention towards the jail office door, because we didn’t know exactly what time they would be coming out, and we didn’t know what, if any, advance warning we would have, so I didn’t dare look around too much. I had already seen everybody I wanted to see, I think.

Mr. Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to look up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. I did look up there earlier.

Mr. Griffin. From where you were in the basement, was it possible to see anybody up at the top of the Main Street ramp?

Mr. Beers. There was a policeman standing up at the top of the ramp up there. Looked like he was out on the sidewalk.

Mr. Griffin. Was the visibility such that his features were distinguishable?

Mr. Beers. No; it was a silhouette.

Mr. Griffin. Can you tell us what kind of advance warning you had that Oswald was coming down?

Mr. Beers. I believe there were some of the news media in this hallway which I pointed out, that goes from the elevator to the Harwood Street side of the city hall, and the hallway goes past the jail office and goes into the police parking area.

I believe there were some members of the news media in the hall in front of the window of the jail office, and someone, I think, shouted, “Oh, here he comes.”

Then there was just a lot of noise and the door opened and he came in.

110 Mr. Griffin. You indicated in your interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation that you felt sure that if you had seen Ruby in the basement you would have recognized him?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir; I know his face that well; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. I take it from that, that the lighting conditions were such and the people were spread out thinly enough so that you were in a position from where you were to have seen the man?

Mr. Beers. Television camera had a bank or two banks, I don’t remember which, of light, and the lighting was adequate in there.

However, there was a considerable number of people and quite an amount of confusion.

It is possible he could have been in there and I had not seen him, but had I seen him, there was enough light for me to have recognized him.

Mr. Griffin. Were you taking any pictures before it became apparent Oswald was being brought down?

Mr. Beers. I think I made up earlier, looked up towards the Commerce Street entrance that showed either one or two policemen in silhouette at the top of that ramp there.

I believe I made one negative, and I believe that it was one or two policemen up there. There was at least an officer there.

Mr. Griffin. Now you indicated earlier that you had first met Jack Ruby 18 months before in connection with some freelance work that you were doing. Can you tell us what that was?

Mr. Beers. Mr. Bayse, Dale Bayse was doing a story, speculating as to being able to sell this story, and needed some photographers to illustrate it.

His information to me was that Mr. Ruby had a stripper school, and that he would like to have some pictures of these, of this school, and these people involved in the school, the supposed instructors and the supposed students, to illustrate this article with.

Mr. Griffin. Did Mr. Bayse ever sell the story?

Mr. Beers. I believe that story he showed me a copy of Adam Magazine. I believe that was probably December 1962.

Mr. Griffin. How much time did you spend at Jack Ruby’s place of business taking photographs?

Mr. Beers. That particular day, which was the only time I was there in his place, I spent from approximately 11 o’clock until must have been around 7. It was dark when I went outside.

Mr. Griffin. Did you visit only the Carousel Club? Or also the Vegas Club?

Mr. Beers. Just the Carousel Club; yes, sir.

Mr. Griffin. Do you still have any of the photographs?

Mr. Beers. Yes, sir; I do. I supplied the FBI with one or two sets of those photographs, and I do have some still available.

I would like to inject here that I was introduced to Mr. Ruby on this particular day, which was my first meeting with him, and—but throughout the day I had little or no conversation with him.

He was negotiating with Mr. Bayse.

Mr. Griffin. Was he actually running the school for strippers or was this a promotion idea?

Mr. Beers. Mr. Griffin, this is an opinion. I don’t think Mr. Ruby actually ran a stripper school.

As I worked throughout the day, it seemed fairly apparent to me that there was no school in operation there, I don’t think. That is strictly an opinion.

Mr. Ruby did run an amateur night, and from what information I think I absorbed there, it appeared that these girls must have, part of them practiced in some of his amateur and semiregularly at his place, and it didn’t appear to be a school.

Mr. Griffin. Was he running an amateur night at the time you were taking these photographs?

Mr. Beers. I was not familiar with the club prior to that.

Mr. Griffin. But at the time you took these photographs, did you have the understanding that he had run an amateur night?

111 Mr. Beers. I got that impression; yes, sir, that he had some amateur nights there.

Mr. Griffin. During the period of November 22, 23, and 24, were you aware of newspaper people who were operating in the Dallas area on the freelance basis?

Mr. Beers. You say was I aware that there were some operating on a freelance basis?

Mr. Griffin. Yes; were you aware of any such people?

Mr. Beers. Not particularly.

I ran into one photographer who was a local man, who I understand was freelancing and had received an assignment from Paris Match, a French magazine, and to the best of my knowledge, I don’t recall—I am sure there were some here, but I don’t recall meeting any that I absolutely knew were on a freelance basis.

Mr. Griffin. What I am interested in finding out is if there is any practice that a freelance person follows in hooking up with a network, or somebody who can pay him, whether he makes a commitment in advance to work, or whether he is just down there for shooting pictures or trying to gather information and selling it as he gets it?

Are you familiar enough with what the practice generally is for freelance people in a situation, developing news situations such as we had in this period, to be able to state how a freelance photographer or newspapermen would operate?

Mr. Beers. In instances such as occurred there, as the assassination of the President, there are some photographers in Dallas who operate on a freelance basis, and also some of them, the same people possibly operate on a stringer basis. This is someone who is known in the area by a news agency or a particular magazine or newspaper, and if something occurred in that area, the people by whom he is known, could possibly contact him and tell him to cover this story, either by himself, or until some of their people could arrive on the scene.

I am sure there were some such people operating there. I don’t know just exactly who it might be.

Mr. Griffin. I will ask you one final question. Has anything come to your attention having to do with either Jack Ruby or with the assassination of President Kennedy, or anything else that you might think would be of importance to the Commission that you think you should make available to us?

I do want to encourage you in this respect because I don’t know that I have covered everything that you might have.

Mr. Beers. I have tried to insert what I thought, what little information or comments I might have to make. I can’t recall that I have learned anything additional since this happened that is not common knowledge to everyone.

Mr. Griffin. I see.

Now, let me also ask you, for the record, whether prior to commencing this deposition you have talked with anybody from the Commission?

I am not talking about the FBI agents, but any staff member of the Commission other than myself?

Mr. Beers. No; I have had no contact with anyone from the Warren Commission except over the telephone when I was notified and they verified my address so they could mail me a notice to appear here.

I might go back and add, as far as my acquaintance with Jack Ruby is concerned, I met him that particular day, and I have seen him in the halls of the Dallas News in that 18-month period four times probably.

And I think Jack recalled that my first name was Jack, but not until I testified in his change of venue hearing.

I think that he aware that I was Jack Beers.

Mr. Griffin. Were you a prosecution witness or defense witness?

Mr. Beers. Defense.

Mr. Griffin. I take it that you were called to testify as to the climate in Dallas, whether Jack could get a fair trial in Dallas or not?

Mr. Beers. More or less; yes, sir.

It was concerned with the change of venue hearing in Judge Brown’s court there.

112 Mr. Griffin. I might add also that I did not interview you prior to taking this deposition?

Mr. Beers. No, sir.

I have never met you before in my life.

Mr. Griffin. If there is anything else that you think we haven’t covered here that comes to your mind after this deposition is concluded, we would appreciate it if you would let us know. And if it is something of importance, we might want to talk to you again.

But I certainly want to thank you for coming here and taking your time. I realize you people are all busy, and it is an imposition to take you away from your work, and we certainly are very grateful that you are willing to take out this time and appear before us and give us this information.

Mr. Beers. Thank you, Mr. Griffin, you are very welcome.

Mr. Griffin. It is a pleasure to have met you.

Mr. Beers. I wish I could help you a lot more.

Mr. Griffin. This is rather a methodical process we have to go through talking to people, but you are all finished.

Mr. Beers. Thank you very much.

The testimony of Robert Leonard Hankal was taken at 10:25 a.m., on April 17, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Robert Leonard Hankal.

Mr. Hankal, my name is Leon Hubert. I’m a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission created under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now Mr. Hankal that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Hankal, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Hankal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Hankal, you are appearing here today as a result of a letter received by you, signed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the President’s Commission; is that correct?

Mr. Hankal. That is correct.

Mr. Hubert. Is it correct that you received that letter more than 3 days from this date?

Mr. Hankal. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hankal. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Will you state your name?

Mr. Hankal. Robert Leonard Hankal.

Mr. Hubert. Your age?

Mr. Hankal. Thirty-two.

Mr. Hubert. Your residence?

Mr. Hankal. 3305 McKinney (No. 1).

Mr. Hubert. And your occupation?

113 Mr. Hankal. I am a director of KRLD Television.

Mr. Hubert. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. Hankal. I have been at KRLD for around 2 years. I have been a director since January.

Mr. Hubert. Were you on duty in connection with your occupation at the city hall on November 23, 1963?

Mr. Hankal. I was.

Mr. Hubert. And I think you were there also on the 24th of November?

Mr. Hankal. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I have handed you a report of an interview of you by special agents of the FBI Quigley and Dallman, dated December 3, 1963, which I have marked in the right hand margin—endorsed as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5337, Deposition of R. L. Hankal.” I have signed my name below that and on the second and third pages I have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner.

Mr. Hankal have you had an opportunity to read this Exhibit 5337?

Mr. Hankal. I have.

Mr. Hubert. That would be just a moment ago; is that correct?

Mr. Hankal. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you think that this Exhibit 5337 is a fair and correct record of the interview had between you and the FBI agents?

Mr. Hankal. It is with one exception, if I can make a note of that?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Hankal. I did see Jack Ruby shoot him—I didn’t know what was happening.

Mr. Hubert. Now, what sentence are you talking about?

Mr. Hankal. This one—“The first reaction was that Oswald had grabbed a police officer’s gun. He also recalls seeing a man’s back directly in front of him obstructing his view of Oswald, and seemed to recall that immediately preceding that he had observed a blur of movement out of the corner of his eye,”—we didn’t go into it at the time—they were interested in my activity more than anything else, when this interview was held.

Mr. Hubert. Let me go into this and get it identified here in the record—you are speaking of this sentence—this is the sentence in the second paragraph on page 2 and the sentence reads as follows: “The first reaction was that Oswald had grabbed the police officer’s gun. He also recalled seeing a man’s back directly in front of him obstructing his view of Oswald, and seemed to recall that immediately preceding that he had observed a blur of movement out of the corner of his eye.”

Mr. Hankal. This is all correct, but it should be added also—I did see—I know that man I later found out was Jack Ruby shoot Oswald.

Mr. Hubert. In other words, you saw more than a blur—that’s what you have in mind?

Mr. Hankal. Yes; I saw——

Mr. Hubert. You saw a blur first?

Mr. Hankal. And then the action.

Mr. Hubert. And then your attention was directed to the action by the blur?

Mr. Hankal. Right.

Mr. Hubert. So, actually, you saw a man coming?

Mr. Hankal. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Where was he coming from?

Mr. Hankal. To my right.

Mr. Hubert. How far away was he?

Mr. Hankal. I believe since I made that statement it has been paced off and set at about 9 feet.

Mr. Hubert. Now, in order that we may have a graphic record of the matter, I am showing you a chart of the basement area, and you are now sitting before the FBI mockup of substantially the same area except that it doesn’t cover all the parking area.

I have marked that chart as follows: “Dallas, Tex., April 17, 1964, Exhibit 5338, Deposition of R. L. Hankal,” and I have signed my name on it.

114 Now, before we go into positions to be marked on that map, may I ask you how long you had been in the basement area prior to the shooting?

Mr. Hankal. Somewhere around 2 or 3 hours and the night before.

Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen Ruby around at any time?

Mr. Hankal. Not that I recall.

Mr. Hubert. Did you know him?

Mr. Hankal. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. And when you testified a moment ago that you saw the man Ruby shoot Oswald, is it correct to state that you did not at that time know that the man doing the shooting was Jack Ruby?

Mr. Hankal. That’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. Well, now, you did assume a position in the basement for some time prior to the actual shooting and it was a rather static position, wasn’t it?

Mr. Hankal. The evening before we were positioned directly across from the jail office door. The next day when we came to work, we moved our camera across the ramp down into the parking area.

Mr. Hubert. Back of the rail?

Mr. Hankal. Back of the rail—we were shooting between the rails.

Mr. Hubert. Where were you, in fact, standing at the moment of the shooting? I ask you to place the spot first on the mockup and I give you the chart to mark a point at which you were standing after you fixed the point on the mockup.

Mr. Hankal. My camera was here just to the left of this center pole and shooting between the rails—we have a long vertical zoom lens and it stuck out between the rails—I was standing outside of the rail of the ramp to the left of the lens.

Mr. Hubert. Would you mark on this chart where you were standing?

Mr. Hankal. I was standing here [indicating and marking on the chart referred to].

Mr. Hubert. Now, you have marked a place “X”. Now, put it in a circle, and I am drawing a line and writing the following “position of Hankal at time of shooting” is that correct?

Mr. Hankal. That’s correct.

Mr. Hubert. The camera was to your rear and left, is that right?

Mr. Hankal. To my right.

Mr. Hubert. To your right or to your left?

Mr. Hankal. To my right.

Mr. Hubert. So that the camera would have been approximately like this?

Mr. Hankal. That’s right.

Mr. Hubert. I am drawing a square in which I am marking an “A” and I am drawing a line out and writing “position of live camera”—it was a live camera?

Mr. Hankal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hubert. What is the station?

Mr. Hankal. KRLD.

Mr. Hubert. “KRLD”.

It was there at all pertinent times—right?

Mr. Hankal. We moved and shot up here after the shots were fired.

Mr. Hubert. But before the shots were fired, that’s where you were?

Mr. Hankal. That’s right—before the shots were fired that’s where we were.

Mr. Hubert. Then, at all pertinent times prior to the shooting you were there?

Mr. Hankal. Right.

Mr. Hubert. The camera itself was back of the rail into the parking area—you were in front of the rail on the ramp?

Mr. Hankal. On the ramp in front of the rail—right.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know Jim Turner?

Mr. Hankal. No; I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know George Phenix?

Mr. Hankal. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Was he there too?

Mr. Hankal. Oh, yes.

Mr. Hubert. What was the relative position between you and George?

115 Mr. Hankal. George was to my right, I believe, he was still here.

Mr. Hubert. Now, I am marking a position which you have designated on the mockup as being approximately where I am putting the letter “P” for Phenix, is that about right?

Mr. Hankal. That’s as I last saw him before the shooting.

Mr. Hubert. And I am drawing a line and writing “Phenix position according to Hankal,” is that right?

Mr. Hankal. Correct.

Mr. Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Huffaker?

Mr. Hankal. I do.

Mr. Hubert. Who is he?

Mr. Hankal. He is a newsman at KRLD.

Mr. Hubert. Where was he standing?

Mr. Hankal. Well, the last time I saw Bob before the shooting, he was just outside and to the left of the jail office door.

Mr. Hubert. How long before the shooting was that?

Mr. Hankal. Perhaps 5 or 6 minutes before it.

Mr. Hubert. You didn’t see him at the time of the shooting?

Mr. Hankal. No; I didn’t. After the shooting he came to our camera for instructions.

Mr. Hubert. When they brought Oswald down, was any announcement made of it at the moment?

Mr. Hankal. Not outside of just a cry from a newsman that said, “He’s coming.” That’s the only announcement I ever heard.

Mr. Hubert. And then immediately thereafter the parties escorting him began to come through?

Mr. Hankal. Appeared at the door and came through.

Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what was the reaction at the time Oswald actually appeared into view of the news people and the police and so forth?

Mr. Hankal. Well, the physical things that happened was there was a stir—some of the movie cameras lights—they need more lights than the television cameras do, some of their lights came on, strobe lights came on and cameras began to click. It was—at the moment not very noisy as it had been—a little, oh, a hush fell over us.

Mr. Hubert. Isn’t it a fact that prior to the shooting, immediately prior to the shooting there was a general surge forward?

Mr. Hankal. Just prior to the shooting?

Mr. Hubert. Yes.

Mr. Hankal. Yes—I would say.

Mr. Hubert. I mean that there was a general movement—a step or two forward by each person—that made a surge?

Mr. Hankal. A moving forward, leaning forward, of all bodies.

Mr. Hubert. And it was almost immediately thereafter or contemporaneously with it that Jack Ruby brushed through the crowd, is that correct?

Mr. Hankal. Within the same action.

Mr. Hubert. You had not seen him standing there before?

Mr. Hankal. No; I hadn’t.

Mr. Hubert. You don’t know how he got in?

Mr. Hankal. I don’t.

Mr. Hubert. Were you present at the showup of Oswald which took place on the night of November 22 in the assembly room of the police department when the press and other news media representatives were allowed to see Oswald?

Mr. Hankal. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. Did you see Jack Ruby in that crowd?

Mr. Hankal. No; I didn’t.

Mr. Hubert. Did you hear anyone say anything from the rear to Oswald?

Mr. Hankal. Well, what do you mean?